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Climate Emergency

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  • I think pretty much everyone on this thread agrees that climate change is real.
    I also think everyone agrees it's man made. 

    The differing opinions is about how we should tackle it.
    Well if everyone agrees that it's man made and it's an emergency and it requires significant, immediate action, that's a very good thing. I suspect there are some that's still refuse to see it that way, sadly. 

    Are there two points of view as to how it should be reversed? 
  • Chizz said:
    Well if everyone agrees that it's man made and it's an emergency and it requires significant, immediate action, that's a very good thing. I suspect there are some that's still refuse to see it that way, sadly. 

    Are there two points of view as to how it should be reversed? 
    Are there two points of view as to how it should be reversed.


    I genuinely think there are hundreds of views tbh.
    The problem is getting governments around the world to come to some sort of agreement as to how to implement them.

    Most of the time they can't even agree on the colour of shit.
  • I found the point that Bill Maher made during his monologue that 14 years of attempting to reduce emissions by driving Toyota Prius's around, was wiped out by just one wildfire.

    Similar would probably be true, to an even greater extent, by a volcanic eruption.

    The point being that nature is far more powerful than anything mankind can do.

    Sadly I think it will be resolved, but it will probably be resolved by an asteroid, rather than anything we can do.

    To answer your question, no we shouldn't be labelling such people who think it's beyond the control of mankind "deniers" but unfortunately that's what one side of Politics loves to do.

    A bit like how anyone who wants to stop the boats or limit immigration, gets labelled "Racist" by the same protagonists.

    From my perspective, making our air cleaner, and our oceans cleaner, is a great thing that we should all be striving for, regardless of whether we think we are having any impact on slowing global warming or not.
    I find the whole subject of geothermal activity drivers in relation to climate change fascinating. I certainly think we're missing a trick not enhancing more geothermal heat as an alternative energy source, but have no idea of the cost / complexities involved in doing that. 

    Anyway here's another NASA link which I found interesting on what volcanoes have to do with climate change.

    What do volcanoes have to do with climate change? - NASA Science

     
  • Are there two points of view as to how it should be reversed.


    I genuinely think there are hundreds of views tbh.
    The problem is getting governments around the world to come to some sort of agreement as to how to implement them.

    Most of the time they can't even agree on the colour of shit.
    @stop_shouting suggested there were "both points of view". 

    In terms of solutions, I think governments should tax fossil fuels very, very much more heavily than they are now; the tax should be hypothecated and used by governments to invest in renewables, thereby driving down the costs of zero- or low-emission energy; tax breaks should be given to any company for each year that it lowers its emissions, whatever industry it's in; mandate the use of solar panels and/or wind turbines as a planning requirement on any new home, office, hospital, sports stadium and factory; implement carbon pricing (in a similar way to how sugar and alcohol are taxed); and launch large-scale reforestation programmes.  

    These would deliver either an immediate benefit to the environment and/or a shift in thinking towards renewables.  

    And I would introduce one more programme that, while it wouldn't immediately benefit the environment, it would produce a long-term environment-positive effect.  I would introduce a environment school qualification exam to be taken at the age of 15 or 16. And when a pupil passes that exam, they receive a permanent (small) income tax discount for every year they're in work.  It would encourage learning about the environment and it would make those with the qualification more employable.  
  • Chizz said:
    @stop_shouting suggested there were "both points of view". 

    In terms of solutions, I think governments should tax fossil fuels very, very much more heavily than they are now; the tax should be hypothecated and used by governments to invest in renewables, thereby driving down the costs of zero- or low-emission energy; tax breaks should be given to any company for each year that it lowers its emissions, whatever industry it's in; mandate the use of solar panels and/or wind turbines as a planning requirement on any new home, office, hospital, sports stadium and factory; implement carbon pricing (in a similar way to how sugar and alcohol are taxed); and launch large-scale reforestation programmes.  

    These would deliver either an immediate benefit to the environment and/or a shift in thinking towards renewables.  

    And I would introduce one more programme that, while it wouldn't immediately benefit the environment, it would produce a long-term environment-positive effect.  I would introduce an environment school qualification exam to be taken at the age of 15 or 16. And when a pupil passes that exam, they receive a permanent (small) income tax discount for every year they're in work.  It would encourage learning about the environment and it would make those with the qualification more employable.  
    Sugar and alcohol are largely lifestyle choices whereas taxing fossil fuels would only make everything more expensive for everyone, where it’s already very hard for people to keep warm in winter. I don’t think that particular part of your post is either likely or desirable 
  • Chizz said:
    @stop_shouting suggested there were "both points of view". 

    In terms of solutions, I think governments should tax fossil fuels very, very much more heavily than they are now; the tax should be hypothecated and used by governments to invest in renewables, thereby driving down the costs of zero- or low-emission energy; tax breaks should be given to any company for each year that it lowers its emissions, whatever industry it's in; mandate the use of solar panels and/or wind turbines as a planning requirement on any new home, office, hospital, sports stadium and factory; implement carbon pricing (in a similar way to how sugar and alcohol are taxed); and launch large-scale reforestation programmes.  

    These would deliver either an immediate benefit to the environment and/or a shift in thinking towards renewables.  

    And I would introduce one more programme that, while it wouldn't immediately benefit the environment, it would produce a long-term environment-positive effect.  I would introduce an environment school qualification exam to be taken at the age of 15 or 16. And when a pupil passes that exam, they receive a permanent (small) income tax discount for every year they're in work.  It would encourage learning about the environment and it would make those with the qualification more employable.  
    I should have used sides of the debate rather than points of view. For example, there will be people that say that the LA fires are all as a consequence of climate change. Some people will say that the fires were started by arsonists and that the Santa Ana winds are a phenomenon that have been around for years. I’m interested in the debate and both points of view as to what caused the fires. 
  • edited January 20
    I should have used sides of the debate rather than points of view. For example, there will be people that say that the LA fires are all as a consequence of climate change. Some people will say that the fires were started by arsonists and that the Santa Ana winds are a phenomenon that have been around for years. I’m interested in the debate and both points of view as to what caused the fires. 

    It could be any combination of those. Yes the Santa Ana winds are a known phenomenon but I don't know if they are getting stronger - trends would need to be looked at to determine whether or not there are climactic changes that are making them progressively stronger and/or more frequent. There is no question that Southern California has experienced one of the driest 12 months on record (see this link https://ggweather.com/seasonal_rain.htm) but again trends would need to be looked at to see if 2024 was an outlier or the climate is clearly trending hotter. It could have been started deliberately or spontaneously - not sure we will ever know that.

    As I said, trends would need to be examined but I believe it is almost certain that the continuous rise in global temperature is due to the shit we are putting in the atmosphere as a result of industrialisation - that trend is clearly established. There does appear to be more frequent freak weather events occurring globally.

    However I think it's fair to conclude that the recent fires in SC were not started as a result of satanic rituals, or started in tunnels used to ferry children to awaiting paedophilles as some of the crank social media conspiracies have been spouting.

  • Sugar and alcohol are largely lifestyle choices whereas taxing fossil fuels would only make everything more expensive for everyone, where it’s already very hard for people to keep warm in winter. I don’t think that particular part of your post is either likely or desirable 
    I agree it isn't likely!  But I think it's the sort of radical thinking that's required to make a proper effect.  Sugar's taxed and it results in products being made with less sugar.  The same could easily be engineered in terms of fossil fuels: if tax is used to disincentivise the consumption of fossil fuels in favour of renewables, then surely that's a good thing.  

    It could be called the "red tax", soothing the hurty feelings of those that complain about "green tax".  
  • Chizz said:
    I agree it isn't likely!  But I think it's the sort of radical thinking that's required to make a proper effect.  Sugar's taxed and it results in products being made with less sugar.  The same could easily be engineered in terms of fossil fuels: if tax is used to disincentivise the consumption of fossil fuels in favour of renewables, then surely that's a good thing.  

    It could be called the "red tax", soothing the hurty feelings of those that complain about "green tax".  

    Tax the producers, not the consumers. Most consumers do not have a choice.
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  • bobmunro said:

    Tax the producers, not the consumers. Most consumers do not have a choice.
    In this way it's very similar to the Sugar tax.  The producers are informed that their product will be more expensive if they do not re-engineer it with less sugar.  

    I think it's an idea worth careful consideration; although, like all ideas that involve tax, there will be very many, noisy, powerful, well-funded nay-sayers. 
  • Chizz said:
    In this way it's very similar to the Sugar tax.  The producers are informed that their product will be more expensive if they do not re-engineer it with less sugar.  

    I think it's an idea worth careful consideration; although, like all ideas that involve tax, there will be very many, noisy, powerful, well-funded nay-sayers. 

    No - you tax the producers of energy at a ridiculously high rate but give them the option of a standard corporation tax rate if they invest the difference in renewables. 
  • bobmunro said:

    No - you tax the producers of energy at a ridiculously high rate but give them the option of a standard corporation tax rate if they invest the difference in renewables. 
    That would work.  But I also like the idea that any supplier of energy has to apply different tariffs to the energy they supply: energy from fossil fuels charged with a very high rate of tax, energy derived from renewables zero-rated.  That way the market - ie all consumers in the UK - will move towards the suppliers who provide renewables.  
  • World Leaders will be long gone before it starts having a major effect on the planet/population, so nothing will ever get done at a macro level. 

    Money over everything after all. You'll see it a lot in the next 4 years. 
  • Ands ensure that 'renewables' actually means 'renewables', not the laughable spectre of 'carbon credits'
    Definitely agree about carbon credits, it's crazy that companies can pay someone else, so that they can carry on producing greenhouse gases.

    The next four years are going to be a disaster for the planet.
  • Plant trees. Millions of them. It would take a while to kick in, but trees eat CO2.
    There is a quote from Napoleon when he became emperor. He said he didn't want his troops marching round France in the baking sun, and demanded a tree planting programme. One of his generals, agast, pointed out it would take years for the trees to grow sufficiently to provide shade for the troops, to which Napoleon replied 'all the more reason to start immediately.'

    We need a swathe of new policies to halt climate change, but trees could be planted from tomorrow.
    That's a good idea. But, and hear me out here, how about instead of planting trees, we keep chopping trees down, and replacing them with cattle farms? 
  • Leuth said:
    That's a good idea. But, and hear me out here, how about instead of planting trees, we keep chopping trees down, and replacing them with cattle farms? 
    That's exactly what we are doing. 

    To support the world's population that has doubled over the last 50 years. 

    I know you don't like this response but that's the reality. 
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  • In that same period meat consumption per person has grown massively. Given we can't easily reverse population growth why don't we try and reverse the overconsuption of meat?
    You tell me
  • In that same period meat consumption per person has grown massively. Given we can't easily reverse population growth why don't we try and reverse the overconsuption of meat?
    So, you don't eat meat?
  • Equally we are allowed to have a conversation about possible courses of action that would impact on climate change without necessarily having to be already doing them. 

    Though as said I have taken a lot of actions in my life to try and make a difference on climate change. 

    What exactly have you done @Redskin
  • edited January 20
    I've massively cut down. Particularly red meat. Generally eat meat once a week, maybe twice. The environment is one of the big reasons (health being the other).
    That's more of less where I'm at, but I try to spread it out so I consume smaller portions over several days. Definitely eating less than half of what I used to, and seldom red meat. Still have two to three meat free days each week though 

    The vegetarian haggis I tried yesterday was a  bit of an acquired taste. Better than I was expecting, but my wife didn't think much of it.
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