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Our recruitment process
pettgra
Posts: 1,574
When Steve Gallen was at the club he seemed to have really good contacts; especially with the London clubs. He was responsible for some very fine players coming to our club. We had Mavididi, Bielik, Cullen, Gallagher and Rak Sakhi etc.
I know Jones wanted to have a large say in transfers and all I can see is there a preference for a Luton DNA. Gallen had the trust and confidence with Bowyer and Jackson; however, not sure that trust exists between Jones and Scott.
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Gallen’s hit rate towards the end definitely tailed off. Apart from JRS and maybe Maatsen no one signed after we got relegated in 2020 was particularly great. Some were good L1 players but you need more than that.2
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Gallen's hit rate at Millwall isn't that great0
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pettgra said:When Steve Gallen was at the club he seemed to have really good contacts; especially with the London clubs. He was responsible for some very fine players coming to our club. We had Mavididi, Bielik, Cullen, Gallagher and Rak Sakhi etc.I know Jones wanted to have a large say in transfers and all I can see is there a preference for a Luton DNA. Gallen had the trust and confidence with Bowyer and Jackson; however, not sure that trust exists between Jones and Scott.We also had Charlie Kirk, Pape Souare, Gunter, Oshilaja, Bonne, Lavelle, Fraser, Penney, Ben Watson, MacGillivray, DJ, Gilbey, Nile John, Juan Castillo, Arter, Shinnie (from Luton!), Bogle, various flavours of Matt Smith, Maddison, Levitt, Smyth, McGeady, Ledley, Andre Green, Hemed, David Davis, Marshall and plenty of other absolute disasterpieces. Granted some of those were needs must due to a lack of funds near the start of his time but Gallen was definitely very miss as well as some hits. Every player you've listed there is also a Premier League loan, but things have shifted in that respect; big teams are now demanding substantial loan fees for players instead of farming them out for experience and you're now being asked to pay through the nose to develop someone else's player for them. Rak-Sakyi was a bit of an recent outlier in that he only really had u21s experience and that meant he was more of a gamble which paid off.One thing that gives me a bit of hope with our current squad is I don't think the recruitment has been all that bad; we're struggling on the pitch at the moment but I think that's more down to the tactics than the players. Docherty, Coventry, Ramsay, Edwards, Mitchell, Mannion, these are all signings that can be part of a squad going forward that we can hopefully develop. Beats the hell out of knowing half our team will go back to their parent clubs next season and we'll have to start over yet again in the summer.6
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The Powell League 1 title season is always, for me, the barometer against which recruitment should be measured. A Championship standard squad assembled on a decent, but not huge budget. It seemed so easy, picking up out of contact players or low transfer fees. It seemed so simple at the time, I don't really understand how we've made it seem so difficult ever since.
Are there no Dale Stephens or Rhoys Wiggins available for £400k anymore? No Michael Morrisons available on a free? Or are we just not good at finding them?
Genuinely don't know the answer. But, if Birmingham can pick up Alfie May for £900k, surely we can do better than squandering £1m on Ahadme?17 -
Don't forget Hollands too. League One was his level but he was a key part of that promotion team.MrLargo said:The Powell League 1 title season is always, for me, the barometer against which recruitment should be measured. A Championship standard squad assembled on a decent, but not huge budget. It seemed so easy, picking up out of contact players or low transfer fees. It seemed so simple at the time, I don't really understand how we've made it seem so difficult ever since.
Are there no Dale Stephens or Rhoys Wiggins available for £400k anymore? No Michael Morrisons available on a free? Or are we just not good at finding them?
Genuinely don't know the answer. But, if Birmingham can pick up Alfie May for £900k, surely we can do better than squandering £1m on Ahadme?5 -
In those good old days scouts would talk to each other, drive hundreds of miles to physically watch the players and decisions would be made by those that have experience in the gameMrLargo said:The Powell League 1 title season is always, for me, the barometer against which recruitment should be measured. A Championship standard squad assembled on a decent, but not huge budget. It seemed so easy, picking up out of contact players or low transfer fees. It seemed so simple at the time, I don't really understand how we've made it seem so difficult ever since.
Are there no Dale Stephens or Rhoys Wiggins available for £400k anymore? No Michael Morrisons available on a free? Or are we just not good at finding them?
Genuinely don't know the answer. But, if Birmingham can pick up Alfie May for £900k, surely we can do better than squandering £1m on Ahadme?
Now it’s all stats, YouTube videos and inexperienced personnel putting suggestions forward to the likes of Andy Scott.2 -
By us maybe, but other clubs get it right. We’ve put new structures and teams in place under new owners but consistently get it wrong.eaststandmike said:
In those good old days scouts would talk to each other, drive hundreds of miles to physically watch the players and decisions would be made by those that have experience in the gameMrLargo said:The Powell League 1 title season is always, for me, the barometer against which recruitment should be measured. A Championship standard squad assembled on a decent, but not huge budget. It seemed so easy, picking up out of contact players or low transfer fees. It seemed so simple at the time, I don't really understand how we've made it seem so difficult ever since.
Are there no Dale Stephens or Rhoys Wiggins available for £400k anymore? No Michael Morrisons available on a free? Or are we just not good at finding them?
Genuinely don't know the answer. But, if Birmingham can pick up Alfie May for £900k, surely we can do better than squandering £1m on Ahadme?
Now it’s all stats, YouTube videos and inexperienced personnel putting suggestions forward to the likes of Andy Scott.1 -
Yeah, I was only picking a couple of examples out - applies to the whole squad though. Kerm for free, BWP £125k, Hayes was a great signing for nothing although he ended up being back-up.MuttleyCAFC said:
Don't forget Hollands too. League One was his level but he was a key part of that promotion team.MrLargo said:The Powell League 1 title season is always, for me, the barometer against which recruitment should be measured. A Championship standard squad assembled on a decent, but not huge budget. It seemed so easy, picking up out of contact players or low transfer fees. It seemed so simple at the time, I don't really understand how we've made it seem so difficult ever since.
Are there no Dale Stephens or Rhoys Wiggins available for £400k anymore? No Michael Morrisons available on a free? Or are we just not good at finding them?
Genuinely don't know the answer. But, if Birmingham can pick up Alfie May for £900k, surely we can do better than squandering £1m on Ahadme?
Was really surprised about Hollands, I expected him to be one of the ones to cope best with the higher level of football in the Championship.1 -
It’s not all stats though, it’s a combination of both usuallyeaststandmike said:
In those good old days scouts would talk to each other, drive hundreds of miles to physically watch the players and decisions would be made by those that have experience in the gameMrLargo said:The Powell League 1 title season is always, for me, the barometer against which recruitment should be measured. A Championship standard squad assembled on a decent, but not huge budget. It seemed so easy, picking up out of contact players or low transfer fees. It seemed so simple at the time, I don't really understand how we've made it seem so difficult ever since.
Are there no Dale Stephens or Rhoys Wiggins available for £400k anymore? No Michael Morrisons available on a free? Or are we just not good at finding them?
Genuinely don't know the answer. But, if Birmingham can pick up Alfie May for £900k, surely we can do better than squandering £1m on Ahadme?
Now it’s all stats, YouTube videos and inexperienced personnel putting suggestions forward to the likes of Andy Scott.0 -
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Plus SCP, as Curbs did before him, meeting the players and making sure that they had the personality as well as the ability. I remember John Sullivan, our back-up keeper who hardly played for us, saying how much he loved it at Charlton. Feels like it's just a job for most of the current squad.eaststandmike said:
In those good old days scouts would talk to each other, drive hundreds of miles to physically watch the players and decisions would be made by those that have experience in the gameMrLargo said:The Powell League 1 title season is always, for me, the barometer against which recruitment should be measured. A Championship standard squad assembled on a decent, but not huge budget. It seemed so easy, picking up out of contact players or low transfer fees. It seemed so simple at the time, I don't really understand how we've made it seem so difficult ever since.
Are there no Dale Stephens or Rhoys Wiggins available for £400k anymore? No Michael Morrisons available on a free? Or are we just not good at finding them?
Genuinely don't know the answer. But, if Birmingham can pick up Alfie May for £900k, surely we can do better than squandering £1m on Ahadme?
Now it’s all stats, YouTube videos and inexperienced personnel putting suggestions forward to the likes of Andy Scott.0 -
NJ talked in the summer about doing exactly the same thing with the likes of Edwards, Docherty and Ahadme.MrLargo said:
Plus SCP, as Curbs did before him, meeting the players and making sure that they had the personality as well as the ability. I remember John Sullivan, our back-up keeper who hardly played for us, saying how much he loved it at Charlton. Feels like it's just a job for most of the current squad.eaststandmike said:
In those good old days scouts would talk to each other, drive hundreds of miles to physically watch the players and decisions would be made by those that have experience in the gameMrLargo said:The Powell League 1 title season is always, for me, the barometer against which recruitment should be measured. A Championship standard squad assembled on a decent, but not huge budget. It seemed so easy, picking up out of contact players or low transfer fees. It seemed so simple at the time, I don't really understand how we've made it seem so difficult ever since.
Are there no Dale Stephens or Rhoys Wiggins available for £400k anymore? No Michael Morrisons available on a free? Or are we just not good at finding them?
Genuinely don't know the answer. But, if Birmingham can pick up Alfie May for £900k, surely we can do better than squandering £1m on Ahadme?
Now it’s all stats, YouTube videos and inexperienced personnel putting suggestions forward to the likes of Andy Scott.2 -
I’m sure it’s been talked about on here before with previous managers too.Callumcafc said:
NJ talked in the summer about doing exactly the same thing with the likes of Edwards, Docherty and Ahadme.MrLargo said:
Plus SCP, as Curbs did before him, meeting the players and making sure that they had the personality as well as the ability. I remember John Sullivan, our back-up keeper who hardly played for us, saying how much he loved it at Charlton. Feels like it's just a job for most of the current squad.eaststandmike said:
In those good old days scouts would talk to each other, drive hundreds of miles to physically watch the players and decisions would be made by those that have experience in the gameMrLargo said:The Powell League 1 title season is always, for me, the barometer against which recruitment should be measured. A Championship standard squad assembled on a decent, but not huge budget. It seemed so easy, picking up out of contact players or low transfer fees. It seemed so simple at the time, I don't really understand how we've made it seem so difficult ever since.
Are there no Dale Stephens or Rhoys Wiggins available for £400k anymore? No Michael Morrisons available on a free? Or are we just not good at finding them?
Genuinely don't know the answer. But, if Birmingham can pick up Alfie May for £900k, surely we can do better than squandering £1m on Ahadme?
Now it’s all stats, YouTube videos and inexperienced personnel putting suggestions forward to the likes of Andy Scott.
What helped Powell is signing players he had played with or coached. Morrison and Yann were two as both were at Leicester. After Yann’s penalty miss and poor scoring record at Leicester not many clubs would have given him a chance.0 -
Maybe I’m misremembering but didn’t we bring in a technical director / head scout basically for that window? Jeff Vetere I think? ex Villa, Real Madrid scout.MrLargo said:The Powell League 1 title season is always, for me, the barometer against which recruitment should be measured. A Championship standard squad assembled on a decent, but not huge budget. It seemed so easy, picking up out of contact players or low transfer fees. It seemed so simple at the time, I don't really understand how we've made it seem so difficult ever since.
Are there no Dale Stephens or Rhoys Wiggins available for £400k anymore? No Michael Morrisons available on a free? Or are we just not good at finding them?
Genuinely don't know the answer. But, if Birmingham can pick up Alfie May for £900k, surely we can do better than squandering £1m on Ahadme?1 -
Wasn’t Vetere’s biggest / most notable contribution that summer Mikel Alonso? Whatever happened to him?hezzla said:
Maybe I’m misremembering but didn’t we bring in a technical director / head scout basically for that window? Jeff Vetere I think? ex Villa, Real Madrid scout.MrLargo said:The Powell League 1 title season is always, for me, the barometer against which recruitment should be measured. A Championship standard squad assembled on a decent, but not huge budget. It seemed so easy, picking up out of contact players or low transfer fees. It seemed so simple at the time, I don't really understand how we've made it seem so difficult ever since.
Are there no Dale Stephens or Rhoys Wiggins available for £400k anymore? No Michael Morrisons available on a free? Or are we just not good at finding them?
Genuinely don't know the answer. But, if Birmingham can pick up Alfie May for £900k, surely we can do better than squandering £1m on Ahadme?0 -
Alonso was a signing put onto Powell by Tony JiminezCallumcafc said:
Wasn’t Vetere’s biggest / most notable contribution that summer Mikel Alonso? Whatever happened to him?hezzla said:
Maybe I’m misremembering but didn’t we bring in a technical director / head scout basically for that window? Jeff Vetere I think? ex Villa, Real Madrid scout.MrLargo said:The Powell League 1 title season is always, for me, the barometer against which recruitment should be measured. A Championship standard squad assembled on a decent, but not huge budget. It seemed so easy, picking up out of contact players or low transfer fees. It seemed so simple at the time, I don't really understand how we've made it seem so difficult ever since.
Are there no Dale Stephens or Rhoys Wiggins available for £400k anymore? No Michael Morrisons available on a free? Or are we just not good at finding them?
Genuinely don't know the answer. But, if Birmingham can pick up Alfie May for £900k, surely we can do better than squandering £1m on Ahadme?
Hence his one and only appearance in the Football League Trophy at home to Brentford3 -
I doubt we needed Vetere to identify most of the signings that summer? A lot of them were promising younger L1 players. They’d probably be a lot more expensive these days.1
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I don’t know who gets credit for what, and maybe it’s just coincidence of timing, but does seem like in hindsight his time here coincides with the best 6 months of recruitment we’ve had in 15 years. We’ve signed plenty of Mikel Alonso’s since, but no more Dale Stephen’s…Callumcafc said:
Wasn’t Vetere’s biggest / most notable contribution that summer Mikel Alonso? Whatever happened to him?hezzla said:
Maybe I’m misremembering but didn’t we bring in a technical director / head scout basically for that window? Jeff Vetere I think? ex Villa, Real Madrid scout.MrLargo said:The Powell League 1 title season is always, for me, the barometer against which recruitment should be measured. A Championship standard squad assembled on a decent, but not huge budget. It seemed so easy, picking up out of contact players or low transfer fees. It seemed so simple at the time, I don't really understand how we've made it seem so difficult ever since.
Are there no Dale Stephens or Rhoys Wiggins available for £400k anymore? No Michael Morrisons available on a free? Or are we just not good at finding them?
Genuinely don't know the answer. But, if Birmingham can pick up Alfie May for £900k, surely we can do better than squandering £1m on Ahadme?
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Gallen gets a lot of credit on here for stuff that he shouldn't have...fenaddick said:Gallen’s hit rate towards the end definitely tailed off. Apart from JRS and maybe Maatsen no one signed after we got relegated in 2020 was particularly great. Some were good L1 players but you need more than that.0 -
For a long time i thought our recruitment process consisted of.
1) Two legs?
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Can’t really compare the fees as it was so long ago. The £1m+ that we spent back then is probably the equivalent of £3m+ nowadays. Other than Birmingham, no one is spending that much in this league nowMrLargo said:The Powell League 1 title season is always, for me, the barometer against which recruitment should be measured. A Championship standard squad assembled on a decent, but not huge budget. It seemed so easy, picking up out of contact players or low transfer fees. It seemed so simple at the time, I don't really understand how we've made it seem so difficult ever since.
Are there no Dale Stephens or Rhoys Wiggins available for £400k anymore? No Michael Morrisons available on a free? Or are we just not good at finding them?
Genuinely don't know the answer. But, if Birmingham can pick up Alfie May for £900k, surely we can do better than squandering £1m on Ahadme?
Though I guess maybe the point is that to do a Powell-summer we need to be spending that kind of money0 -
I'll say this btw. When a player in the leagues above, aged 27 or over, is released by their club, there's a fucking reason. Let them go to a team that simply wants to get by, not one chasing promotion, they won't have what it takes. We make this mistake over and over and over and over again. Can anyone think of a recent example of this who's even threatened to do anything good for us?5
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Also spent time playing for Luton! Get him back NJ!hezzla said:
Maybe I’m misremembering but didn’t we bring in a technical director / head scout basically for that window? Jeff Vetere I think? ex Villa, Real Madrid scout.MrLargo said:The Powell League 1 title season is always, for me, the barometer against which recruitment should be measured. A Championship standard squad assembled on a decent, but not huge budget. It seemed so easy, picking up out of contact players or low transfer fees. It seemed so simple at the time, I don't really understand how we've made it seem so difficult ever since.
Are there no Dale Stephens or Rhoys Wiggins available for £400k anymore? No Michael Morrisons available on a free? Or are we just not good at finding them?
Genuinely don't know the answer. But, if Birmingham can pick up Alfie May for £900k, surely we can do better than squandering £1m on Ahadme?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeff_Vetere1 -
Agree with that to some extent (although the point still stands about May and Ahadme). However, we had the 5th highest budget in the league the year we won the title, and I think we're still around that mark now.NabySarr said:
Can’t really compare the fees as it was so long ago. The £1m+ that we spent back then is probably the equivalent of £3m+ nowadays. Other than Birmingham, no one is spending that much in this league nowMrLargo said:The Powell League 1 title season is always, for me, the barometer against which recruitment should be measured. A Championship standard squad assembled on a decent, but not huge budget. It seemed so easy, picking up out of contact players or low transfer fees. It seemed so simple at the time, I don't really understand how we've made it seem so difficult ever since.
Are there no Dale Stephens or Rhoys Wiggins available for £400k anymore? No Michael Morrisons available on a free? Or are we just not good at finding them?
Genuinely don't know the answer. But, if Birmingham can pick up Alfie May for £900k, surely we can do better than squandering £1m on Ahadme?
Though I guess maybe the point is that to do a Powell-summer we need to be spending that kind of money
And I don't think the fees have changed hugely, to the point where decent players are out of our reach. Millwall reportedly paid in the region of £700k for Macauley Langstaff, top scorer in League 2 last season (which also puts further question marks over the fee we paid for Ahadme).1 -
I'm not going to write off some of the players we've signed this summer totally just yet. As I still firmly believe we need to give Jones and the team side to get it right and make mistakes along the way and their is time to turn this around.
However one of the many issues with our recruitment for years is that we have bought in different types of managers who also have had different approaches, styles and ways of playing. This has also meant a rapid change of players who have been rated by some managers and yet not by others in such a short space of time.
Bowyer- Task-master focused heavily on fitness and working hard. Ex Player.
Adkins- Older style Motivator, wanted to create a nice environment to work in
Jackson- Young coach trying to make a name for himself and man-manager. Ex Player.
Garner- Young coach focused on a certain way of playing that you need certain players for.
Holden- More of a manager than a coach
Appleton- Task-master focused on fitness and more fitness.
We also have made some signings that looking back had red flags from the start.
Maddison- Had baggage that Bowyer, Gallen and Sandgaard knew about and it was no surprise it never worked out. In particular him and Bowyer was a massive clash of personalities.
Kirk- It's probably clear he never really wanted to come down South at a tough time for him. Despite this though, we should have looked more into his character from the start.
Bonne- The social media stuff before he came back here and the fact his career was in serious decline before we got him back.
Fraser- The fact that Ipswich sold him to us after 6 months at the first opportunity was not a good sign at the time looking back.
There's so many other signings that were poor with clearly very little research done into signing them other than they had small success in the past. Gunter, Arter, Hector etc.
Their was also others that weren't bad people and gave their all, but were just not good enough. Lavelle and Payne etc.
You can barely name any players that have improved too over the last 4-5 years. As I say I am excluding the players signed in the summer as its still too early to judge I feel.
The few that improved with us.
May- Although was already a proven goal scorer
Dobson
Blackett-Taylor
Stockley- Did improve initially until the last season, although I concede was limited.
Clare- Did ok
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All I can say about this season is that it was clear as day what we needed to be successful........
A creative midfielder or two. Player(s) who can take a free kick or corner. Wide men who can cross without having to check back first.
None of these were signed. We have strengthen at the back with the signings of Mitchell & Edwards. We have added a bit more to the midfield with Berry & Docherty.
But we are still woefully short of anything that resembles a promotion winning squad.
PS.
And that was before we sold our top goalscorer.2 -
MrLargo said:The Powell League 1 title season is always, for me, the barometer against which recruitment should be measured. A Championship standard squad assembled on a decent, but not huge budget. It seemed so easy, picking up out of contact players or low transfer fees. It seemed so simple at the time, I don't really understand how we've made it seem so difficult ever since.
Are there no Dale Stephens or Rhoys Wiggins available for £400k anymore? No Michael Morrisons available on a free? Or are we just not good at finding them?
Genuinely don't know the answer. But, if Birmingham can pick up Alfie May for £900k, surely we can do better than squandering £1m on Ahadme?The Powell season was perfect recruitment, but I wonder how we'd look at some of those signings as they came in now, as I think we scrutinise a lot more, or are more traumatised. Morrison had failed badly at Sheff Wed, Yann at Leicester. Taylor was the equivalent of us signing someone more in the Jones mould, Stephens had been picked up from a pretty poor team, Hayes was unwanted at Preston, Hughes was past it, Pritchard was a random non-league kid we found on work experience, Haynes struggled at Barnsley, Cort at Burnley. In fact, apart from Hollands and Wiggins, two of the most in-form proven L1 players we brought in were Evina and Leon Clarke. Just goes to show that you try and sign the players that will suit your game, which is what Jones has ostensibly done this season, but there's always a bit of luck and a bit of lightning in a bottle with some seasons. Powell had such a good eye for the right player at the right time but it was easier to bring those sorts of players in then than it is now.The club have denied that we spent £1m on Ahadme incidentally, I'd love to know what the correct figure is and the structure of the deal.3 -
SINCE YANN, I may add lolLeuth said:I'll say this btw. When a player in the leagues above, aged 27 or over, is released by their club, there's a fucking reason. Let them go to a team that simply wants to get by, not one chasing promotion, they won't have what it takes. We make this mistake over and over and over and over again. Can anyone think of a recent example of this who's even threatened to do anything good for us?0 -
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