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The UK is to rejoin the EU wide Horizon science scheme.

seth plum
seth plum Posts: 53,448
edited September 2023 in Not Sports Related
Is it political to mention that the UK wants and is poised to rejoin the EU scientific Horizon scheme and get part of the £85 billion available?

Is re joining such a scheme and working in harmony with the Netherlands, Austria, France, Malta, Belgium, Germany, Bulgaria, Greece, Poland, Croatia, Hungary, Portugal, Cyprus, Republic of Ireland, Romania, Czech Republic, Italy, Slovakia, Denmark, Latvia, Slovenia, Estonia, Lithuania, Spain, Finland, Luxembourg and Sweden the wrong thing to do because it is anti democratic when after all the 2016 referendum was framed in some quarters of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland not needing them as much as they need us?

Will scientific cooperation and collaboration help in tackling climate change?



























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Comments

  • eastterrace6168
    eastterrace6168 Posts: 22,704
    edited September 2023
    Opened a can of worms now Seth...hold on to your hat....🙄😴
  • seth plum
    seth plum Posts: 53,448
    edited September 2023
    Scientific cooperation is not a can of worms in my view.

    Heck it might even lead to more general cooperation, like working together to stop the criminal people smuggling gangs.
  • PrincessFiona
    PrincessFiona Posts: 5,476
    seth plum said:
    Scientific cooperation is not a can of worms in my view.

    Heck it might even lead to more general cooperation, like working together to stop the criminal people smuggling gangs.
    why does scientific cooperation affect working together to stop people smuggling?

    Are you suggesting the EU actively want to stop or even reduce people smuggling to the UK anyway? Your definitely opening up a political debate by introducing illegal migration into this thread
  • ShootersHillGuru
    ShootersHillGuru Posts: 50,645
    Cooperation on any level about anything can never be a bad thing. 
  • IdleHans
    IdleHans Posts: 10,982
    Daft to leave it, glad we are going back in.
  • PrincessFiona
    PrincessFiona Posts: 5,476
    IdleHans said:
    Daft to leave it, glad we are going back in.
    Did the UK leave it or were frozen out because of Brexit?
  • ShootersHillGuru
    ShootersHillGuru Posts: 50,645
    PrincessFiona said:
    IdleHans said:
    Daft to leave it, glad we are going back in.
    Did the UK leave it or were frozen out because of Brexit?
    We were not frozen out of anything. We left the club and therefore lost membership benefits. It’s good that we have finally been able to negotiate a return. Nothing negative here at all.
  • PrincessFiona
    PrincessFiona Posts: 5,476
    edited September 2023
    ShootersHillGuru said:
    PrincessFiona said:
    IdleHans said:
    Daft to leave it, glad we are going back in.
    Did the UK leave it or were frozen out because of Brexit?
    We were not frozen out of anything. We left the club and therefore lost membership benefits. It’s good that we have finally been able to negotiate a return. Nothing negative here at all.
    I wasn't sure if leaving was (temporarily it seems) mandatory as part of Brexit

     Preferable to all or nothing 
  • eastterrace6168
    eastterrace6168 Posts: 22,704
    edited September 2023
    seth plum said:
    Scientific cooperation is not a can of worms in my view.

    Heck it might even lead to more general cooperation, like working together to stop the criminal people smuggling gangs.
    Agree Seth, my "can of worms" refers to the way this thread will end up, in the usual endless Political/Brexit arguments, and the original post which I agree with will be lost in the ether...🤷‍♂️ 

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  • ShootersHillGuru
    ShootersHillGuru Posts: 50,645
    eastterrace6168 said:
    seth plum said:
    Scientific cooperation is not a can of worms in my view.

    Heck it might even lead to more general cooperation, like working together to stop the criminal people smuggling gangs.
    Agree Seth, my "can of worms" refers to the way this thread will end up, in the usual endless political/Brexit arguments, and the original post which I agree with will be lost in the ether...🤷‍♂️ 
    Thing is. You can’t discuss the benefits or rejoining Horizon without acknowledging the reason we left in the first place. That was Brexit. I’m not commenting on the rights or wrongs of that. No need in this context. We left The EU and consequently left Horizon. Now we’re back. Win situation. 
  • PrincessFiona
    PrincessFiona Posts: 5,476
    ShootersHillGuru said:
    eastterrace6168 said:
    seth plum said:
    Scientific cooperation is not a can of worms in my view.

    Heck it might even lead to more general cooperation, like working together to stop the criminal people smuggling gangs.
    Agree Seth, my "can of worms" refers to the way this thread will end up, in the usual endless political/Brexit arguments, and the original post which I agree with will be lost in the ether...🤷‍♂️ 
    Thing is. You can’t discuss the benefits or rejoining Horizon without acknowledging the reason we left in the first place. That was Brexit. I’m not commenting on the rights or wrongs of that. No need in this context. We left The EU and consequently left Horizon. Now we’re back. Win situation. 
    I don't agree that you can't discuss the benefits of rejoining a scientific program without acknowledging the reason for leaving (temporarily).  It should be perfectly possible to discuss benefits without the history but I do agree it can't be discussed on here without it being unnecessarily political
  • ShootersHillGuru
    ShootersHillGuru Posts: 50,645
    edited September 2023
    Q - Have you joined Horizon ?
    A - No we’ve rejoined
    Q - Oh.  Why did you leave if you were keen on membership ? 
    A - That’s not important. We don’t want to talk about that.
    😂
  • PrincessFiona
    PrincessFiona Posts: 5,476
    edited September 2023
    Q What are the advantages to being part of Horizon?

    No, need to discuss your questions if you are (only) discussing the advantages of rejoining it. Unless you want to bring the politics or incapable or ringfencing a simple question. Not 'we don't want to talk about that' - no need to talk about that to answer a simple question

    Could you discuss advantages with joining it with a country who were considering joining without discussing why the UK left it temporarily? Of course you could. In fact that country would think you were somewhat unhinged if you included historic politics. You'd be akin to Prince Harry using every opportunity to lash out at the RF including his recent series for Netflix.

    Could you not discuss the advantages of being in the Championship compared to League One?
  • seth plum
    seth plum Posts: 53,448
    PrincessFiona said:
    seth plum said:
    Scientific cooperation is not a can of worms in my view.

    Heck it might even lead to more general cooperation, like working together to stop the criminal people smuggling gangs.
    why does scientific cooperation affect working together to stop people smuggling?

    Are you suggesting the EU actively want to stop or even reduce people smuggling to the UK anyway? Your definitely opening up a political debate by introducing illegal migration into this thread
    I said ‘more general cooperation’.
  • Wheresmeticket
    Wheresmeticket Posts: 17,304
    Outrageous. It's not what I voted for.
  • PrincessFiona
    PrincessFiona Posts: 5,476
    seth plum said:
    PrincessFiona said:
    seth plum said:
    Scientific cooperation is not a can of worms in my view.

    Heck it might even lead to more general cooperation, like working together to stop the criminal people smuggling gangs.
    why does scientific cooperation affect working together to stop people smuggling?

    Are you suggesting the EU actively want to stop or even reduce people smuggling to the UK anyway? Your definitely opening up a political debate by introducing illegal migration into this thread
    I said ‘more general cooperation’.
    I asked what people smuggling has to do with a scientific program
  • The Red Robin
    The Red Robin Posts: 26,133
    PrincessFiona said:
    seth plum said:
    PrincessFiona said:
    seth plum said:
    Scientific cooperation is not a can of worms in my view.

    Heck it might even lead to more general cooperation, like working together to stop the criminal people smuggling gangs.
    why does scientific cooperation affect working together to stop people smuggling?

    Are you suggesting the EU actively want to stop or even reduce people smuggling to the UK anyway? Your definitely opening up a political debate by introducing illegal migration into this thread
    I said ‘more general cooperation’.
    I asked what people smuggling has to do with a scientific program
    In my world (NHS and local authority) we use multiple routine datasets to build models to help us predict vulnerabilities and use that to shape early interventions and support. I.e if you can identify people likely to be vulnerable to trafficking (as an example) then you may be able to intervene and support them earlier. 

    That’s just one scientific example off the top of my head. 
  • PrincessFiona
    PrincessFiona Posts: 5,476
    The Red Robin said:
    PrincessFiona said:
    seth plum said:
    PrincessFiona said:
    seth plum said:
    Scientific cooperation is not a can of worms in my view.

    Heck it might even lead to more general cooperation, like working together to stop the criminal people smuggling gangs.
    why does scientific cooperation affect working together to stop people smuggling?

    Are you suggesting the EU actively want to stop or even reduce people smuggling to the UK anyway? Your definitely opening up a political debate by introducing illegal migration into this thread
    I said ‘more general cooperation’.
    I asked what people smuggling has to do with a scientific program
    In my world (NHS and local authority) we use multiple routine datasets to build models to help us predict vulnerabilities and use that to shape early interventions and support. I.e if you can identify people likely to be vulnerable to trafficking (as an example) then you may be able to intervene and support them earlier. 

    That’s just one scientific example off the top of my head. 
    Of course, but nothing to do with EU cooperation on people smuggling because of the Horizon programme!
  • seth plum
    seth plum Posts: 53,448
    The desire to cooperate in the Horizon scheme might lead to a desire to cooperate on other things like people smuggling. Or even tackling the new Covid threat.

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  • PrincessFiona
    PrincessFiona Posts: 5,476
    seth plum said:
    The desire to cooperate in the Horizon scheme might lead to a desire to cooperate on other things like people smuggling. Or even tackling the new Covid threat.
    I would ask why not the cooperation on people smuggling in the first place! It shouldn't be dependent on anything else, let alone a scientific project
  • seth plum
    seth plum Posts: 53,448
    Cooperation and collaboration depends on cooperation and collaboration.
  • Jints
    Jints Posts: 3,498
    Which requires agreements to be in place on hings like sharing data, having consisntent policy etc. We had all that as a member of Europol but let when we left the EU.
  • seth plum
    seth plum Posts: 53,448
    eastterrace6168 said:
    Opened a can of worms now Seth...hold on to your hat....🙄😴
    Well it is new news today.
    When India landed on the Moon it was new news then and was discussed.
  • sam3110
    sam3110 Posts: 21,319
    I'm not sure how much it actually changes for some of the sciences. 

    For instance, pharma, is pretty much unchanged but this as almost all big and medium pharmaceutical companies have multiple offices in the EU and the US as well as the UK.

    I'd imagine a lot of science led companies are the same.

    It's a good thing for smaller companies and individuals though, for sure
  • PrincessFiona
    PrincessFiona Posts: 5,476
    seth plum said:
    Cooperation and collaboration depends on cooperation and collaboration.
    irrespective of in the EU or not
  • seth plum
    seth plum Posts: 53,448
    PrincessFiona said:
    seth plum said:
    Cooperation and collaboration depends on cooperation and collaboration.
    irrespective of in the EU or not
    Yes of course.
    The new news today is about reversing what the majority apparently voted for, and looking to cooperate and collaborate with the EU as the UK used to do.
    Philosophically tricky, but practically good.
  • NornIrishAddick
    NornIrishAddick Posts: 9,623
    PrincessFiona said:
    seth plum said:
    The desire to cooperate in the Horizon scheme might lead to a desire to cooperate on other things like people smuggling. Or even tackling the new Covid threat.
    I would ask why not the cooperation on people smuggling in the first place! It shouldn't be dependent on anything else, let alone a scientific project
    Horizon is not, as I understand it, just cooperation for scientific research, it also includes other academic research programmes.

    While an EU initiative, it does encourage membership from non-EU countries (though, as an EU initiative, dispute resolution is subject to ECJ oversight).

    From what I have seen about the agreement, the deal allows the UK to get money back, if it gets less than a set percentage of that value in Horizon-funded projects, but it also allows for the UK having to pay more, if it is more successful.

    What academics have identified as a problem is the hostile approach to postgraduate/postdoctorate researchers seeking places in UK institutions (which make them less attractive).

    So, today's announcement is good news, but only part of the way towards continuing the high levels of success UK research institutions have achieved to date.
  • PrincessFiona
    PrincessFiona Posts: 5,476
    seth plum said:
    PrincessFiona said:
    seth plum said:
    Cooperation and collaboration depends on cooperation and collaboration.
    irrespective of in the EU or not
    Yes of course.
    The new news today is about reversing what the majority apparently voted for, and looking to cooperate and collaborate with the EU as the UK used to do.
    Philosophically tricky, but practically good.
    I missed the vote on the Horizon project. I wasn't aware the majority have voted on it
  • soapy_jones
    soapy_jones Posts: 21,371
    edited September 2023
    In science and innovation Europe needs us as well as we them.  Sensible decision for both parties.

    Any of the usual suspects on here who want to bore the arse off of us with their political viewpoints (he yawns...) can crack on, the thread will just get closed down sooner rather than later.

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