England Cricket 2021 (excluding Ashes)

thenewbie said:

Lincsaddick said:

kentaddick said:

Lincsaddick said:

DamoNorthStand said:

Well that’s the point - the game has clearly got a major racism issue all throughout and now Rafiq is caught up in it. The one thing suffering now is the game of cricket - Rafiq, Vaughan, Ballance…. None of them are coming out of this well.

well of the three, Vaughan is categorically denying using racist language TEN or so years ago .. strange how other Asian cricketers have jumped in to support accusations of racism against Vaughan, why so late in coming forwards chaps ? .. the thing is, there is NO proof that Vaughan used racist language so far,  just accusations, accusations which will always tarnish Vaughan and has left his career in ruins. He now has nowhere to go it seems

There is proof - there’s corroborating witnesses, which in a court of law is evidence and could be argued as proof. What else do you want? A time machine to stand there and witness what Vaughan said yourself?

Why so late in coming forward? Probably because exactly what’s happening to rafiq right now (people not believing him, digging through old social media posts etc) would happen to them. 

who are the corroborating witnesses ? .. name them and let's have a forensic check into their social media history..  and Rafiq's credibility is seriously undermined by his jolly little off the cuff anti semitic texts from when he was a mere boy, posts that he knew were highly offensive and he took pains to delete ..
the outcome of this affair will be , as I have outlined in the original post, that Rafiq will always be a shining paragon of virtue, a man who was  brave enough to take on the establishment, he'll  always be a hero despite his anti semitism, whereas Vaughan, even if nothing is proved  against him, will  almost certainly never work for  a major newspaper or broadcaster again. Let's hear Vaughan's accusers whilst they're under oath and see how they get on, 

But Rafiq's own comments (while deplorable in their own right) don't at all undermine his point that there is widespread systemic racism in English cricket. Ten years later on, he's actually doing something to actively try and change that.

Vaughan is just denying he ever said anything racist and pretending this is nothing to do with him at all. It's a different story entirely. 

You notice that in Rafiq's case he's fully admitted that 1. He did in fact say those things and 2. It was wrong to do so. That for me shows much better character than Vaughan has. 

thenewbie said:

Lincsaddick said:

kentaddick said:

Lincsaddick said:

DamoNorthStand said:

Well that’s the point - the game has clearly got a major racism issue all throughout and now Rafiq is caught up in it. The one thing suffering now is the game of cricket - Rafiq, Vaughan, Ballance…. None of them are coming out of this well.

well of the three, Vaughan is categorically denying using racist language TEN or so years ago .. strange how other Asian cricketers have jumped in to support accusations of racism against Vaughan, why so late in coming forwards chaps ? .. the thing is, there is NO proof that Vaughan used racist language so far,  just accusations, accusations which will always tarnish Vaughan and has left his career in ruins. He now has nowhere to go it seems

There is proof - there’s corroborating witnesses, which in a court of law is evidence and could be argued as proof. What else do you want? A time machine to stand there and witness what Vaughan said yourself?

Why so late in coming forward? Probably because exactly what’s happening to rafiq right now (people not believing him, digging through old social media posts etc) would happen to them. 

who are the corroborating witnesses ? .. name them and let's have a forensic check into their social media history..  and Rafiq's credibility is seriously undermined by his jolly little off the cuff anti semitic texts from when he was a mere boy, posts that he knew were highly offensive and he took pains to delete ..
the outcome of this affair will be , as I have outlined in the original post, that Rafiq will always be a shining paragon of virtue, a man who was  brave enough to take on the establishment, he'll  always be a hero despite his anti semitism, whereas Vaughan, even if nothing is proved  against him, will  almost certainly never work for  a major newspaper or broadcaster again. Let's hear Vaughan's accusers whilst they're under oath and see how they get on, 

But Rafiq's own comments (while deplorable in their own right) don't at all undermine his point that there is widespread systemic racism in English cricket. Ten years later on, he's actually doing something to actively try and change that.

Vaughan is just denying he ever said anything racist and pretending this is nothing to do with him at all. It's a different story entirely. 

You notice that in Rafiq's case he's fully admitted that 1. He did in fact say those things and 2. It was wrong to do so. That for me shows much better character than Vaughan has. 

Lincsaddick said:

thenewbie said:

Lincsaddick said:

kentaddick said:

Lincsaddick said:

DamoNorthStand said:

Well that’s the point - the game has clearly got a major racism issue all throughout and now Rafiq is caught up in it. The one thing suffering now is the game of cricket - Rafiq, Vaughan, Ballance…. None of them are coming out of this well.

well of the three, Vaughan is categorically denying using racist language TEN or so years ago .. strange how other Asian cricketers have jumped in to support accusations of racism against Vaughan, why so late in coming forwards chaps ? .. the thing is, there is NO proof that Vaughan used racist language so far,  just accusations, accusations which will always tarnish Vaughan and has left his career in ruins. He now has nowhere to go it seems

There is proof - there’s corroborating witnesses, which in a court of law is evidence and could be argued as proof. What else do you want? A time machine to stand there and witness what Vaughan said yourself?

Why so late in coming forward? Probably because exactly what’s happening to rafiq right now (people not believing him, digging through old social media posts etc) would happen to them. 

who are the corroborating witnesses ? .. name them and let's have a forensic check into their social media history..  and Rafiq's credibility is seriously undermined by his jolly little off the cuff anti semitic texts from when he was a mere boy, posts that he knew were highly offensive and he took pains to delete ..
the outcome of this affair will be , as I have outlined in the original post, that Rafiq will always be a shining paragon of virtue, a man who was  brave enough to take on the establishment, he'll  always be a hero despite his anti semitism, whereas Vaughan, even if nothing is proved  against him, will  almost certainly never work for  a major newspaper or broadcaster again. Let's hear Vaughan's accusers whilst they're under oath and see how they get on, 

But Rafiq's own comments (while deplorable in their own right) don't at all undermine his point that there is widespread systemic racism in English cricket. Ten years later on, he's actually doing something to actively try and change that.

Vaughan is just denying he ever said anything racist and pretending this is nothing to do with him at all. It's a different story entirely. 

You notice that in Rafiq's case he's fully admitted that 1. He did in fact say those things and 2. It was wrong to do so. That for me shows much better character than Vaughan has. 

You can bet your house that IF Rafiq's 'dodgy' texts had not come to light, he would never have mentioned them .. he's been sussed .. and like too many others on here you are assuming that Vaughan is at worst a racist, at best, a user of racist language .. where is the proof ? .. you happily defame Vaughan, when there is no proof, WHY? .. how do you know so much about the respective characters of Vaughan and Rafiq ?

Leuth said:

stop_shouting said:

Lincsaddick said:

thenewbie said:

Lincsaddick said:

kentaddick said:

Lincsaddick said:

DamoNorthStand said:

Well that’s the point - the game has clearly got a major racism issue all throughout and now Rafiq is caught up in it. The one thing suffering now is the game of cricket - Rafiq, Vaughan, Ballance…. None of them are coming out of this well.

well of the three, Vaughan is categorically denying using racist language TEN or so years ago .. strange how other Asian cricketers have jumped in to support accusations of racism against Vaughan, why so late in coming forwards chaps ? .. the thing is, there is NO proof that Vaughan used racist language so far,  just accusations, accusations which will always tarnish Vaughan and has left his career in ruins. He now has nowhere to go it seems

There is proof - there’s corroborating witnesses, which in a court of law is evidence and could be argued as proof. What else do you want? A time machine to stand there and witness what Vaughan said yourself?

Why so late in coming forward? Probably because exactly what’s happening to rafiq right now (people not believing him, digging through old social media posts etc) would happen to them. 

who are the corroborating witnesses ? .. name them and let's have a forensic check into their social media history..  and Rafiq's credibility is seriously undermined by his jolly little off the cuff anti semitic texts from when he was a mere boy, posts that he knew were highly offensive and he took pains to delete ..
the outcome of this affair will be , as I have outlined in the original post, that Rafiq will always be a shining paragon of virtue, a man who was  brave enough to take on the establishment, he'll  always be a hero despite his anti semitism, whereas Vaughan, even if nothing is proved  against him, will  almost certainly never work for  a major newspaper or broadcaster again. Let's hear Vaughan's accusers whilst they're under oath and see how they get on, 

But Rafiq's own comments (while deplorable in their own right) don't at all undermine his point that there is widespread systemic racism in English cricket. Ten years later on, he's actually doing something to actively try and change that.

Vaughan is just denying he ever said anything racist and pretending this is nothing to do with him at all. It's a different story entirely. 

You notice that in Rafiq's case he's fully admitted that 1. He did in fact say those things and 2. It was wrong to do so. That for me shows much better character than Vaughan has. 

You can bet your house that IF Rafiq's 'dodgy' texts had not come to light, he would never have mentioned them .. he's been sussed .. and like too many others on here you are assuming that Vaughan is at worst a racist, at best, a user of racist language .. where is the proof ? .. you happily defame Vaughan, when there is no proof, WHY? .. how do you know so much about the respective characters of Vaughan and Rafiq ?

The thread should closed now as there won’t be a more reasoned and accurate comment.

You have an extremely clear agenda. Today's revelation isn't quite the manna from heaven you think it is though. Yorkshire CCC isn't any less institutionally racist than it was.

thenewbie said:

stop_shouting said:

thenewbie said:

Lincsaddick said:

kentaddick said:

Lincsaddick said:

DamoNorthStand said:

Well that’s the point - the game has clearly got a major racism issue all throughout and now Rafiq is caught up in it. The one thing suffering now is the game of cricket - Rafiq, Vaughan, Ballance…. None of them are coming out of this well.

well of the three, Vaughan is categorically denying using racist language TEN or so years ago .. strange how other Asian cricketers have jumped in to support accusations of racism against Vaughan, why so late in coming forwards chaps ? .. the thing is, there is NO proof that Vaughan used racist language so far,  just accusations, accusations which will always tarnish Vaughan and has left his career in ruins. He now has nowhere to go it seems

There is proof - there’s corroborating witnesses, which in a court of law is evidence and could be argued as proof. What else do you want? A time machine to stand there and witness what Vaughan said yourself?

Why so late in coming forward? Probably because exactly what’s happening to rafiq right now (people not believing him, digging through old social media posts etc) would happen to them. 

who are the corroborating witnesses ? .. name them and let's have a forensic check into their social media history..  and Rafiq's credibility is seriously undermined by his jolly little off the cuff anti semitic texts from when he was a mere boy, posts that he knew were highly offensive and he took pains to delete ..
the outcome of this affair will be , as I have outlined in the original post, that Rafiq will always be a shining paragon of virtue, a man who was  brave enough to take on the establishment, he'll  always be a hero despite his anti semitism, whereas Vaughan, even if nothing is proved  against him, will  almost certainly never work for  a major newspaper or broadcaster again. Let's hear Vaughan's accusers whilst they're under oath and see how they get on, 

But Rafiq's own comments (while deplorable in their own right) don't at all undermine his point that there is widespread systemic racism in English cricket. Ten years later on, he's actually doing something to actively try and change that.

Vaughan is just denying he ever said anything racist and pretending this is nothing to do with him at all. It's a different story entirely. 

You notice that in Rafiq's case he's fully admitted that 1. He did in fact say those things and 2. It was wrong to do so. That for me shows much better character than Vaughan has. 

So you’re saying that a man that admits making racist comments has more character than a man that denies making racist comments?

Yes.... When that first person actively condemns the comments they made as wrong and is actively seeking a change, and the second seems to be in full denial mode despite three different people all saying he did say the comments in question.

Did Vaughan think of himself as racist, no. Did he intend it that way? Probably not on any conscious level. But given everything else coming out it would be very odd to make up a completely fictional example when there is a lot of factual examples to use. 

thenewbie said:

stop_shouting said:

thenewbie said:

stop_shouting said:

thenewbie said:

Lincsaddick said:

kentaddick said:

Lincsaddick said:

DamoNorthStand said:

Well that’s the point - the game has clearly got a major racism issue all throughout and now Rafiq is caught up in it. The one thing suffering now is the game of cricket - Rafiq, Vaughan, Ballance…. None of them are coming out of this well.

well of the three, Vaughan is categorically denying using racist language TEN or so years ago .. strange how other Asian cricketers have jumped in to support accusations of racism against Vaughan, why so late in coming forwards chaps ? .. the thing is, there is NO proof that Vaughan used racist language so far,  just accusations, accusations which will always tarnish Vaughan and has left his career in ruins. He now has nowhere to go it seems

There is proof - there’s corroborating witnesses, which in a court of law is evidence and could be argued as proof. What else do you want? A time machine to stand there and witness what Vaughan said yourself?

Why so late in coming forward? Probably because exactly what’s happening to rafiq right now (people not believing him, digging through old social media posts etc) would happen to them. 

who are the corroborating witnesses ? .. name them and let's have a forensic check into their social media history..  and Rafiq's credibility is seriously undermined by his jolly little off the cuff anti semitic texts from when he was a mere boy, posts that he knew were highly offensive and he took pains to delete ..
the outcome of this affair will be , as I have outlined in the original post, that Rafiq will always be a shining paragon of virtue, a man who was  brave enough to take on the establishment, he'll  always be a hero despite his anti semitism, whereas Vaughan, even if nothing is proved  against him, will  almost certainly never work for  a major newspaper or broadcaster again. Let's hear Vaughan's accusers whilst they're under oath and see how they get on, 

But Rafiq's own comments (while deplorable in their own right) don't at all undermine his point that there is widespread systemic racism in English cricket. Ten years later on, he's actually doing something to actively try and change that.

Vaughan is just denying he ever said anything racist and pretending this is nothing to do with him at all. It's a different story entirely. 

You notice that in Rafiq's case he's fully admitted that 1. He did in fact say those things and 2. It was wrong to do so. That for me shows much better character than Vaughan has. 

So you’re saying that a man that admits making racist comments has more character than a man that denies making racist comments?

Yes.... When that first person actively condemns the comments they made as wrong and is actively seeking a change, and the second seems to be in full denial mode despite three different people all saying he did say the comments in question.

Did Vaughan think of himself as racist, no. Did he intend it that way? Probably not on any conscious level. But given everything else coming out it would be very odd to make up a completely fictional example when there is a lot of factual examples to use. 

I don’t understand why you would take the word of a man who had admitted he’s a racist, over a man has no previous in this regard and has denied he made racist comments. It makes sense and sure a lack of respect or disregard of due process. 

Because everything else that has come up has been true. Whatever Rafiq said himself, he's still right that racism exists in cricket and there's plenty of evidence of that. Other people who have been mentioned by name have admitted as much, just for example. But this one, very specific example (that two other people corroborate of course) just happens to be completely fictional?

It is possible. But seems incredibly unlikely. And I don't see what anyone would get from just making something up about Vaughan specifically when the actual problem is the systemic racism this one thing is just an example of. 

Grapevine49 said:

There is no « proof » of any sustained racism.

There are corroborating accounts of any number of racist incidents. Would you like to call Adil Rashid racist as well?

Once again there is too great a focus on the personalities involved.

You do realise Rafiq specifically asked for people not to be named. He did not publish his witness statements. The Parliamentary committee in the interests of transparency chose to do so.

In terms of any financial settlement he had already turned down over £100k to simply walk away.

There is however clearly a major challenge to the industry.

I believe over 1000 accounts have been registered on the now available helplines. I regret that appears to offend some sensibilities. That is your challenge not mine. It is entirely your choice to continue to look the other way. 

In all honesty for me much of it resembles adolescent playground bullying carrying a throughly nasty racist trait where people living in the extended traditional bubble of the professional game have pursued long outdated values.

They have quite simply failed to grow up. 

Many might argue they were simply products of their environment but that would suggest they had neither the eyes, the ears or the mental capacity to gauge the environment around them.

For that nobody has any excuse for unacceptable behaviour. 

Beyond such personal responsibility come the organisational accountability. Had the issues been properly researched, investigated and addressed then the game itself would have been beyond challenge. It didn’t

It is rightly being held to account.

In terms of legal due diligence every corporation was required in the 1970s to record and operate an Equal Opportunities Programme covering all aspects of discrimination across gender and racial equality.

The entire Yorkshire Region of the bank I worked for at the time had not one women bank manager.

That 50yrs later it’s County Cricket Club is still locked into a comparable mindset comes as no surprise at all.

Thus is about the culture of the industry. The YCCC response and their media cronies attempting to silence one voice have completely missed the point.

It is not about Rafiq, Balance, Hoggard, Brooks, Hales, Vaughan or even Root.

It is about the culture of YCCC and it’s executive. It is about the culture of ECB and on a broader scale every single County Cricket Organisation.

English Cricket is elitist. It is public school and largely white middle class elitist. I hugely enjoyed Tunbridge Wells Cricket Week for over 20yrs yet you could not ignore the old boys clubs around half the boundary in their « Tented Elitist » gatherings.

Kent Cricket in recent months has signed Singh its first non white academy graduate after Bell Drummond in something like 20yrs. If you were Asian or Black you had more chance playing for Kent if you were born in India, Pakistan, Sri Lanka, Zimbabwe or the Caribbean.

Have you driven round Lewisham, Catford or Gravesend? Lewisham has I believe the 3rd largest Jamaican heritage community in the country.

I will leave others far more au fait with Kent’s current Development pathway than I to comment why we have had the need to bring in Podmore, Milnes, Leaning, Logan, Stewart, Klaassen, Qadri, Compton, Muyeye, Quinn, Gilchrist etc. in recent years.

Kent is the 2nd most participative cricketing county in the game.

It speaks to the development investment and the financial divisions in the game and that today rests entirely with the ECB who so pleased with themselves awarded themselves bonuses of £2mn.

I still enjoy the game but have long since held my nose over any aspect of equality, diversity and inclusion. 

Perhaps I too have spent too long looking the other way.

Gribbo said:

Leuth said:

Yeah he said some stupid, racist shit in conversation with a friend 10 years ago, and should be rightly castigated, but the greater evil here is surely the culture of institutional, bullying racism inflicted directly onto its targets. Don't lose the story.

Don't know how you can choose which one to get triggered by and which one should be ignored (10 years ago or not).

Reckon if anyone, including Rafiq, have been racist (or prejudice), it should get sorted.

If Rafiq has been found out to be anti semitic in a roundabout way, by making his own claims, it doesn't mean that what he's said or Tweeted should be ignored in favour of what happened to him, surely?

Fanny Fanackapan said:

Wonder what dear old Dicky Bird makes of this unholy mess ? 

The_Organiser said:

Reminds me of the Harry Enfield episode from many moons ago with the Yorkshire man George whitebread. Asian guy walks into the scene, cue “eh up , you’ll never play for Yorkshire lad, no offence”, before going on to call someone a poof and then glorify white bread.

Think Harry was spot on with those observations.