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Tokyo Olympics
Comments
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I am not upset about anything pal.kentaddick said:
I have no idea what you’re talking about, if you’re going to get upset about something at least communicate it clearly please.Cafc43v3r said:
You know full well what I am talking about. No need to be more obtuse then you already are.kentaddick said:
Agree with what? You mean you don’t agree Laurel Hubbard has crashed out of the olympics?Cafc43v3r said:Since when was acknowledging male pubity is a thing bigotry? Classic you don't agree with me so your a bigot.
If only there was another thread where this could be debated to death..... Again.0 -
In terms of weightlifting, it's only been an Olympic sport since 2000. (Women's that is).McBobbin said:PrincessFiona said:
How on earth do you deduce that 'if she had an unfair advantage she would have won'? That is ridiculous logic. She has an unfair advantage but still didn't win.
How do you know that for a fact?
Would have got nowhere near the men's olympics which kind of proves the point. No born female would qualify for the male weightlifting events because of the inherent physiological differences that go deeper than hormone and testosterone.
I sympathise for Hubbard and I am sure she did not want to be thrust into the media spotlight but have far greater sympathy for women who have been hugely and unfairly disadvantaged and missed out on the olympics because of Hubbard's unfair advantage inherent of being born in a male body.
She is training just as hard as all the other female weightlifters around the world. If she did have an unfair advantage she would win.
There a huge amount of stories about how men not at world-level quality manage to beat world-level females. Surely if Laurel was getting so much advantage, she'd do the same after training 24/7 for the event?
Let's see how many 40 year old biological females are competing at the Olympics
So no woman in her 40s grew up watching female weightlifters on tv and it didn't really exist as a career path.1 -
She didn't just not wipe the floor, she failed miserably. So where was the advantage?RodneyCharltonTrotta said:kentaddick said:
In weight lifting terms she fell at the very first hurdle. So is it an inherent advantage or not? Because the results seem to tell me otherwise.RodneyCharltonTrotta said:kentaddick said:Laurel Hubbard out of the olympics you say? But what happened to her walking all over the competition because of the gender she was born as? 😂😂😂😂😂😂 some people on here have made themselves look silly and bigoted!
She got there in the first place by virtue of the physiological advantages afforded by being born a man added to a background of competitive weight lifting to the detriment of elite women lifters who lack that inherent advantage.
It's wholly unfair to those women and nothing about bigotry or ignorance.
There is real bigotry in sneering at those who dare to question the fairness and legitimacy of these new ideas that we are all expected to believe unquestionably or be deemed bigots.
Very 1984.
Theres real bigotry on not admitting making a ridiculous judgement before seeing the results, then reframing the debate as something else so you don’t look like you were wrong and bigoted from the beginning. “We have always been at war with eastasia”. Very 1984 indeed.
Bottom line...I don't think it is fair or equitable in the interests of sport that people who spend the vast majority of their life as men before identifying as women be able to compete on a level playing field with women who have been born women and nothing about Hubbard's performance has provided evidence to the contrary.
Many people appear to be of this view despite it unfairly imo raising calls of being transphobic, bigoted etc.
Most people have tried to be very respectful and sensitive in articulating this view from what I've read on here and the other thread that was on this weeks ago so as to not offend or be hurtful to anyone who may be trans and have a constructive debate.
However comments like yours above with the emojis levelled at implying that anyone who has a view on trans issues that impact the mainstream that doesn't chime with what has been decided by a minority to be the "truth" are bigots is very unconstructive and sneering.
Just because Hubbard didn't wipe the floor is not to say she has no unfair advantage from the outset over those athletes she beat in qualifying.
I'll not hijack the thread on this debate but it's not likely to change peoples' minds by being scornful and sneering, particularly when the example you have cited is inconclusive to the point being debated.1 -
Loved the women's hockey team - fantastic performance, and the keeper did us proud. Netherlands next, come on ladies!
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Shocking goalkeeping again in the women’s football decides the game.0
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Rounders on BBC1 now1
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What a sensational comeback and win for Japan vs USA in Baseball.0
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Love a bit of baseball. That was highly entertaining.0
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Just watched the Emily Campbell lift. What a girl.3
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ValleyGary said:So the two Namibian athletes were ruled out of the 400m cos they have too much testosterone but are allowed to go in the 200m. What’s that all about?
Very strange rules.
CAPE TOWN, South Africa -- Two 18-year-old female runners from Namibia won't be allowed to run in the 400 meters at the Tokyo Olympics after medical tests showed they have high natural testosterone levels.
That makes them ineligible under the same contentious rules that have sidelined South Africa's Caster Semenya.
The Namibian Olympic committee said Friday that the two runners, Christine Mboma and Beatrice Masilingi, had been withdrawn from the 400.
They will now "focus their full attention" on the 200 meters, Namibia's athletics federation said.
World Athletics' testosterone rules only apply to events between 400 meters and one mile.
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In getting there at the expense of other Kiwi Women?kentaddick said:
She didn't just not wipe the floor, she failed miserably. So where was the advantage?RodneyCharltonTrotta said:kentaddick said:
In weight lifting terms she fell at the very first hurdle. So is it an inherent advantage or not? Because the results seem to tell me otherwise.RodneyCharltonTrotta said:kentaddick said:Laurel Hubbard out of the olympics you say? But what happened to her walking all over the competition because of the gender she was born as? 😂😂😂😂😂😂 some people on here have made themselves look silly and bigoted!
She got there in the first place by virtue of the physiological advantages afforded by being born a man added to a background of competitive weight lifting to the detriment of elite women lifters who lack that inherent advantage.
It's wholly unfair to those women and nothing about bigotry or ignorance.
There is real bigotry in sneering at those who dare to question the fairness and legitimacy of these new ideas that we are all expected to believe unquestionably or be deemed bigots.
Very 1984.
Theres real bigotry on not admitting making a ridiculous judgement before seeing the results, then reframing the debate as something else so you don’t look like you were wrong and bigoted from the beginning. “We have always been at war with eastasia”. Very 1984 indeed.
Bottom line...I don't think it is fair or equitable in the interests of sport that people who spend the vast majority of their life as men before identifying as women be able to compete on a level playing field with women who have been born women and nothing about Hubbard's performance has provided evidence to the contrary.
Many people appear to be of this view despite it unfairly imo raising calls of being transphobic, bigoted etc.
Most people have tried to be very respectful and sensitive in articulating this view from what I've read on here and the other thread that was on this weeks ago so as to not offend or be hurtful to anyone who may be trans and have a constructive debate.
However comments like yours above with the emojis levelled at implying that anyone who has a view on trans issues that impact the mainstream that doesn't chime with what has been decided by a minority to be the "truth" are bigots is very unconstructive and sneering.
Just because Hubbard didn't wipe the floor is not to say she has no unfair advantage from the outset over those athletes she beat in qualifying.
I'll not hijack the thread on this debate but it's not likely to change peoples' minds by being scornful and sneering, particularly when the example you have cited is inconclusive to the point being debated.
let’s see how our weightlifter does in the Olympics when she is 430 -
I recall Tamara Press retiring just before sex verification tests were introduced in 66. She was unbeatable in the discus and shot put and held 11 world records.soapy_jones said:Oh for the old days... Each Eastern European female athlete checked for a pair of bollocks before the "On your marks..."0 -
"World champions fail to show up" is a story worth reporting.killerandflash said:
But they find time to show an interview with Megan Rapinoe and woffle about herkillerandflash said:Rather poor coverage of the athletics then. Yes the BBC is restricted, but weird that on the main channel they only showed 10 seconds of the 3000m steeplechase0 -
I see your 'tbf' and raise you a 'Whoosh'.suzisausage said:
that is only a 10 second race though tbfSuedeAdidas said:
Was the same with the 100mkillerandflash said:Rather poor coverage of the athletics then. Yes the BBC is restricted, but weird that on the main channel they only showed 10 seconds of the 3000m steeplechase
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That would have been a much better riposte if you hadn't written 'would of'.ValleyGary said:
This would of been a much better wind up if you’d posted it an hour ago. You missed your chance.kentaddick said:Laurel Hubbard out of the olympics you say? But what happened to her walking all over the competition because of the gender she was born as? 😂😂😂😂😂😂 some people on here have made themselves look silly and bigoted!0 -
That was all before the showed the match thoughAddicksAddict said:
"World champions fail to show up" is a story worth reporting.killerandflash said:
But they find time to show an interview with Megan Rapinoe and woffle about herkillerandflash said:Rather poor coverage of the athletics then. Yes the BBC is restricted, but weird that on the main channel they only showed 10 seconds of the 3000m steeplechase0 -
Do you mean by 'those athletes she beat in qualifying' those she beat to get picked for NZ? If so, you've missed the fact that no others in NZ reached the qualifying standard.RodneyCharltonTrotta said:kentaddick said:
In weight lifting terms she fell at the very first hurdle. So is it an inherent advantage or not? Because the results seem to tell me otherwise.RodneyCharltonTrotta said:kentaddick said:Laurel Hubbard out of the olympics you say? But what happened to her walking all over the competition because of the gender she was born as? 😂😂😂😂😂😂 some people on here have made themselves look silly and bigoted!
She got there in the first place by virtue of the physiological advantages afforded by being born a man added to a background of competitive weight lifting to the detriment of elite women lifters who lack that inherent advantage.
It's wholly unfair to those women and nothing about bigotry or ignorance.
There is real bigotry in sneering at those who dare to question the fairness and legitimacy of these new ideas that we are all expected to believe unquestionably or be deemed bigots.
Very 1984.
Theres real bigotry on not admitting making a ridiculous judgement before seeing the results, then reframing the debate as something else so you don’t look like you were wrong and bigoted from the beginning. “We have always been at war with eastasia”. Very 1984 indeed.
Bottom line...I don't think it is fair or equitable in the interests of sport that people who spend the vast majority of their life as men before identifying as women be able to compete on a level playing field with women who have been born women and nothing about Hubbard's performance has provided evidence to the contrary.
Many people appear to be of this view despite it unfairly imo raising calls of being transphobic, bigoted etc.
Most people have tried to be very respectful and sensitive in articulating this view from what I've read on here and the other thread that was on this weeks ago so as to not offend or be hurtful to anyone who may be trans and have a constructive debate.
However comments like yours above with the emojis levelled at implying that anyone who has a view on trans issues that impact the mainstream that doesn't chime with what has been decided by a minority to be the "truth" are bigots is very unconstructive and sneering.
Just because Hubbard didn't wipe the floor is not to say she has no unfair advantage from the outset over those athletes she beat in qualifying.
I'll not hijack the thread on this debate but it's not likely to change peoples' minds by being scornful and sneering, particularly when the example you have cited is inconclusive to the point being debated.0 -
Of course there’s an advantage, it’s a matter of science, just obviously not big enough to ensure she won.kentaddick said:
In weight lifting terms she fell at the very first hurdle. So is it an inherent advantage or not? Because the results seem to tell me otherwise.RodneyCharltonTrotta said:kentaddick said:Laurel Hubbard out of the olympics you say? But what happened to her walking all over the competition because of the gender she was born as? 😂😂😂😂😂😂 some people on here have made themselves look silly and bigoted!
She got there in the first place by virtue of the physiological advantages afforded by being born a man added to a background of competitive weight lifting to the detriment of elite women lifters who lack that inherent advantage.
It's wholly unfair to those women and nothing about bigotry or ignorance.
There is real bigotry in sneering at those who dare to question the fairness and legitimacy of these new ideas that we are all expected to believe unquestionably or be deemed bigots.
Very 1984.
Theres real bigotry on not admitting making a ridiculous judgement before seeing the results, then reframing the debate as something else so you don’t look like you were wrong and bigoted from the beginning. “We have always been at war with eastasia”. Very 1984 indeed.4 -
I could start the 100m final 20m ahead of the rest of the field.I have an unfair advantage but I still wouldn’t win.13
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Charlton are at home to Man C in the cup, so Charlton have an advantage known as home advantage.
According to the logic of a couple of people if Charlton don't win there was no advantage.
It's hard to understand how some people's brains don't work.6 - Sponsored links:
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Presumably SELR & Kent disagree, wibble.MrOneLung said:I could start the 100m final 20m ahead of the rest of the field.I have an unfair advantage but I still wouldn’t win.0 -
Do you mean you dont think we would win ffs ? 🤭🤭Covered End said:Charlton are at home to Man C in the cup, so Charlton have an advantage known as home advantage.
According to the logic of a couple of people if Charlton don't win there was no advantage.
It's hard to understand how some people's brains don't work.0 -
SELR_addicks said:All that nonsense before the Olympics about Laurel Hubbard and surprise surprise, she doesn't have much of an advantage.Of course she has an advantage due to being male, it's just that as sports scientist Ross Tucker points out on twitter:
Folks, you can't measure the presence of an advantage by whether someone wins or not. It has to be measured relative to self. The final performance is the SUM of base level PLUS advantage. So looking only at the final says nothing about the presence of absence of an advantage.In this case, her male advantage is outweighed by the disadvantages of her age, and her technique and weight selection tactics being a bit ropey. If you compare her lifts with those of women of a similar age in recent years (in the Masters category because performance tends to peak in the late 20s for weightlifters) she's a massive outlier. But slap bang in the middle of the male performance levels for Masters lifters.
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No.AndyG said:
Do you mean you dont think we would win ffs ? 🤭🤭Covered End said:Charlton are at home to Man C in the cup, so Charlton have an advantage known as home advantage.
According to the logic of a couple of people if Charlton don't win there was no advantage.
It's hard to understand how some people's brains don't work.0 -
Read an article today which implied the IOC will change their rules, but also described how a single value for testosterone wouldn’t be appropriate for all sports. The IOC wants each sport to set their own rules rather than just use their default.MrWalker said:ValleyGary said:So the two Namibian athletes were ruled out of the 400m cos they have too much testosterone but are allowed to go in the 200m. What’s that all about?Very strange rules.
CAPE TOWN, South Africa -- Two 18-year-old female runners from Namibia won't be allowed to run in the 400 meters at the Tokyo Olympics after medical tests showed they have high natural testosterone levels.
That makes them ineligible under the same contentious rules that have sidelined South Africa's Caster Semenya.
The Namibian Olympic committee said Friday that the two runners, Christine Mboma and Beatrice Masilingi, had been withdrawn from the 400.
They will now "focus their full attention" on the 200 meters, Namibia's athletics federation said.
World Athletics' testosterone rules only apply to events between 400 meters and one mile.
It used athletics as an example, stating that testosterone has less impact for longer distances ( which surprised me) and haemoglobin was more important to test for.Suffice to say, the science has moved on, the IOC will lower the testosterone level, but each sport should be setting their own standards.1 -
Ha, SELR & Kent would expect a 90 year old bloke to outlift an 18 year old female of similar weight, beCauSe hE HaS an aDVanTAge.1
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Bit childish.Covered End said:Ha, SELR & Kent would expect a 90 year old bloke to outlift an 18 year old female of similar weight, beCauSe hE HaS an aDVanTAge.
Female weightlifting in the Olympics wasn't a sport until the year 2000. So we have no idea how good Olympic level women can be into later age because they don't exist yet.
The male winner of the Olympics this year is 37, so weightlifters don't have to peak in their late 20s.
Have a feeling Laurel Hubbard's extended time off in her period of transition has probably extended her career due to lack of injury + wear and tear.1 -
While we're on the subject of weightlifting, Emily Campbell's silver was our first women's Olympic weightlifting medal ever, and the first for either sex since 1984. Given that most of the Eastern European nations were boycotting that year there's a good chance we'd not have got that one if everyone was there, so it's an even more impressive achievement.
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I would have thought it would matter in the 200m, possibly even more than the 400m, for several reasons. Plus various sprinters have been caught taking testosterone based banned substances. It's almost like the wording that it applies only between 400 metres to a mile was badly writtenSomervilleAddick said:
Read an article today which implied the IOC will change their rules, but also described how a single value for testosterone wouldn’t be appropriate for all sports. The IOC wants each sport to set their own rules rather than just use their default.MrWalker said:ValleyGary said:So the two Namibian athletes were ruled out of the 400m cos they have too much testosterone but are allowed to go in the 200m. What’s that all about?Very strange rules.
CAPE TOWN, South Africa -- Two 18-year-old female runners from Namibia won't be allowed to run in the 400 meters at the Tokyo Olympics after medical tests showed they have high natural testosterone levels.
That makes them ineligible under the same contentious rules that have sidelined South Africa's Caster Semenya.
The Namibian Olympic committee said Friday that the two runners, Christine Mboma and Beatrice Masilingi, had been withdrawn from the 400.
They will now "focus their full attention" on the 200 meters, Namibia's athletics federation said.
World Athletics' testosterone rules only apply to events between 400 meters and one mile.
It used athletics as an example, stating that testosterone has less impact for longer distances ( which surprised me) and haemoglobin was more important to test for.Suffice to say, the science has moved on, the IOC will lower the testosterone level, but each sport should be setting their own standards.0 -
Well done to her. I wasn't expecting that silver. And the England Women's Hockey keeper. Great performance.0
