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England v Italy - THE FINAL - Match Thread
Comments
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The fact we even got to pens is frustrating meSouthWest_Addicks said:Rashford took one against Colombia, so in my opinion he had to take one against Italy. Pickford took the 5th one against Switzerland in the nations league, but was demoted to number 6 on the list this time around. Only person in my social circle whose getting criticism is Southgate for putting Saka up 5th.
Plenty of us think it was incorrect to put such a young player in that position. Especially, with that information that Grealish asked to take one etc.
I mentioned previously, Southgate knows better than anyone the perils of a penalty shootout and their after effects.
He had the tools on the bench and the systems available to give it a real go during the latter end of the game.
If he'd gone for it and we lost he then had the ace up his sleeve of being able to say 'ive been through a shootout at this level. I know what an effect it can have if it doesn't work out I just thought I'd give it everything we've got to try and prevent it from happening again'
I for one wouldn't have argued with that.5 -
He did go for it we brought on two attacking players for a defensive midfielder and a full back when the opposition had a corner near the end of extra time 🙄carly burn said:
The fact we even got to pens is frustrating meSouthWest_Addicks said:Rashford took one against Colombia, so in my opinion he had to take one against Italy. Pickford took the 5th one against Switzerland in the nations league, but was demoted to number 6 on the list this time around. Only person in my social circle whose getting criticism is Southgate for putting Saka up 5th.
Plenty of us think it was incorrect to put such a young player in that position. Especially, with that information that Grealish asked to take one etc.
I mentioned previously, Southgate knows better than anyone the perils of a penalty shootout and their after effects.
He had the tools on the bench and the systems available to give it a real go during the latter end of the game.
If he'd gone for it and we lost he then had the ace up his sleeve of being able to say 'ive been through a shootout at this level. I know what an effect it can have if it doesn't work out I just thought I'd give it everything we've got to try and prevent it from happening again'
I for one wouldn't have argued with that.4 -
You can say Rashford was only inches away from scoring his penalty, but clearly you see him slice the ball when he takes it.
Throughout the second half of the season he's been out of form and during the tournament he's shown during games that he's lost his confidence. I'm sure during training he's a fantastic players but clearly it's not translating to games and maybe they should have taken that on board when choosing takers.
Penalties aren't just about technique. They're about finding players that will be able to cope with the pressure and nerves. Experience is always key.0 -
his stupid stuttering run up is ridiculous - he virtually stood still on the spot by the ball. Pick your spot, run up and hit it crisp and clean - it the keeper guesses the right way and saves it then fair playcharltonkeston said:Rashford did everything right with his penalty and missed by less than 4 inches. Saka's not so good but he stood up to be counted. Good save by the keeper for the other one.
The subs were correct, you need penalty takers on the pitch. The two that came on were not on there to do much other than take a penalty.
Anyone can miss or have a penalty saved. The European champions missed 2 of theirs.
Tactically we were good for the first 30 minutes then Italians were able to exploit our setup. 2nd half we were in danger of having a new arse torn for us, they were that dominant.
By anyone's measure we had a very successful Euros, only one team had better.
Fine margins between success and failure but still a great achievement to finish as runners up to a better team.
The only criticism I have of the players was the taking off the medals as soon as they were put on. Looked a bit childish to me.
if he practiced like that in training then I'd have hoped someone would've pulled him up on it0 -
https://youtu.be/lipUc_E0Q7k
In a bid to lighten the mood somewhat6 -
Maguire and Bonucci rather showed up many of the more skilful players with their penalties, both smacked at maximum pace into the top corner. Great technique and courage to do that6
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I thought it sent out the message that they didn't want that medal and were going to try to get a better one next year. That is how it spoke to me and I liked it. We will all see the same thing from a different angle.charltonkeston said:Rashford did everything right with his penalty and missed by less than 4 inches. Saka's not so good but he stood up to be counted. Good save by the keeper for the other one.
The subs were correct, you need penalty takers on the pitch. The two that came on were not on there to do much other than take a penalty.
Anyone can miss or have a penalty saved. The European champions missed 2 of theirs.
Tactically we were good for the first 30 minutes then Italians were able to exploit our setup. 2nd half we were in danger of having a new arse torn for us, they were that dominant.
By anyone's measure we had a very successful Euros, only one team had better.
Fine margins between success and failure but still a great achievement to finish as runners up to a better team.
The only criticism I have of the players was the taking off the medals as soon as they were put on. Looked a bit childish to me.0 -
Like Lyle Taylor who has a 100% record with that sort of penalty.Elthamaddick said:
his stupid stuttering run up is ridiculous - he virtually stood still on the spot by the ball. Pick your spot, run up and hit it crisp and clean - it the keeper guesses the right way and saves it then fair playcharltonkeston said:Rashford did everything right with his penalty and missed by less than 4 inches. Saka's not so good but he stood up to be counted. Good save by the keeper for the other one.
The subs were correct, you need penalty takers on the pitch. The two that came on were not on there to do much other than take a penalty.
Anyone can miss or have a penalty saved. The European champions missed 2 of theirs.
Tactically we were good for the first 30 minutes then Italians were able to exploit our setup. 2nd half we were in danger of having a new arse torn for us, they were that dominant.
By anyone's measure we had a very successful Euros, only one team had better.
Fine margins between success and failure but still a great achievement to finish as runners up to a better team.
The only criticism I have of the players was the taking off the medals as soon as they were put on. Looked a bit childish to me.
if he practiced like that in training then I'd have hoped someone would've pulled him up on it0 -
Rather than questioning Southgate's choice of penalty takers (which he's already explained) we should probably be questioning how Sterling stayed on. He had a poor game, and the only reason for keeping him on (in my opinion) was surely if he was lined up to be one of the 5 penalty takers.
The fact he then didn't take one certainly leads me to question why the fuck wasn't he subbed off for Rashford or Sancho earlier?1 -
Lyle Taylor hasn’t taken a pen in front of 60,000 passionate home fans in the cauldron that is Wembley, with the expectations of a nation on his shoulders, starved of a major trophy for 55 years 😉2
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"The most frustrating thing about England on Sunday was the complete lack of counter-attacking when 1-0 up.
In 65mins ahead, England had only two attempts - both headers at set-pieces from centre-backs. They made being 1-0 up seem like a burden.3 -
I'd like to think that as these young players mature and develop Southgate will take the reigns off a little bit. Think we have the pace, energy and technical ability to be a side that can overwhelm teams in the future, without having to sit back so much.0
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Saka travelled light and when interviewed 3 weeks ago only seemed to know about the last WC.
By the time he walked up for that 5th penalty he had so much heavy Baggage which had been dumped on him by the media: biggest game for 55 years - we lose on Penalities that I'm surprised that "Pressure is Privilege" Jack Grealish wasn't given the 5th penalty as he was keen to have that Honour.
I would need to see the stats on how long players have been on the field before scoring or missing in penalty shoot outs. Not convinced that's relevent.
Rashford and Sancho missed. Doesn't sound Rashford was in the right frame of mind according to his statement and his confidence was low. Sancho isn't a deep thinker like Marcus so harder to judge and sometimes it's just the keeper go the right way and maybe Sancho style could be read ?
If we think Penalities are a lottery then we will never beat this psychological barrier.
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I agree, or even earlier where we were so determined to get him on that we brought him on at right back. If he really wasn't feeling in the right frame of mind then he could have said something then. I get the feeling his wrong frame of mind started on the walk to the penalty spot, which isn't unusual. Often it takes the moment coming to judge how you'll feel in the moment.ValleyGary said:
They were pre-planned pen takers. If Rashford wasn’t in the right frame of mind then he should of said something. I’m sure Southgate would of checked with his pen takers before they took them they were still okay to take one? It’s what he was doing when he was walking around the huddle is presume. Or is Rashford ‘wasn’t in the right frame of mind’ in hindsight?carly burn said:
Rashford has confirmed this morning that he wasn't in the right frame of mind before taking it. And who can blame him.carly burn said:
Rashford - woefully out of form for club and country. Hardly kicked a ball in the tournament. Bring him on completely cold to take a pen in the biggest game this country has ever seen for 50 odd years.LawrieAbrahams said:
Lots of people digging out Southgate for bringing on two penalty takers but that's hardly revolutionary, seen it happen many times. Netherlands even brought Krul on once with a minute to go.
It doesn't help that they both missed and was also a bit shambolic that they made the change when Italy had a corner.
I think if Gareth had punched all that into his calculator it wouldn't of spat out the answer he was looking for.
If I've got one complaint at Southgate, and they are few, it's reading the room in some match situations. I'm still amazed with how he let the latter stages of that game pan out.
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Lyle's style is totally differentMuttleyCAFC said:
Like Lyle Taylor who has a 100% record with that sort of penalty.Elthamaddick said:
his stupid stuttering run up is ridiculous - he virtually stood still on the spot by the ball. Pick your spot, run up and hit it crisp and clean - it the keeper guesses the right way and saves it then fair playcharltonkeston said:Rashford did everything right with his penalty and missed by less than 4 inches. Saka's not so good but he stood up to be counted. Good save by the keeper for the other one.
The subs were correct, you need penalty takers on the pitch. The two that came on were not on there to do much other than take a penalty.
Anyone can miss or have a penalty saved. The European champions missed 2 of theirs.
Tactically we were good for the first 30 minutes then Italians were able to exploit our setup. 2nd half we were in danger of having a new arse torn for us, they were that dominant.
By anyone's measure we had a very successful Euros, only one team had better.
Fine margins between success and failure but still a great achievement to finish as runners up to a better team.
The only criticism I have of the players was the taking off the medals as soon as they were put on. Looked a bit childish to me.
if he practiced like that in training then I'd have hoped someone would've pulled him up on it4 -
What frustrated me is that from about 80 minutes onward, Southgate was playing for pens. He could have brought on Sancho and Rashford earlier in ET and let them at least run at Italy, see if we could stretch them. We played for the pens, made the subs just to take pens, and ultimately paid the price for it.12
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Posted on 6th July:2
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Interesting take aways from the above thread:
- overall young players score more often than older players (less scars, less fear?)
- players miss their penalty more often if they have played a full 120 minutes and are fatigued2 -
Good piece that.
My quick takeaway
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England perhaps victims of sticking too rigidly to the numbers and the data of what “should” work rather than allowing for a bit of give and take.
But given that only 62% of players score in “must score” scenarios, we were always playing behind the eight ball if it went to sudden death.
I tell you who I would’ve been confident of smashing that fifth penalty into the net. Pickford.3 -
No Taylor walks up and hits it. He doesn't do the triple jump in the lead up to it.MuttleyCAFC said:
Like Lyle Taylor who has a 100% record with that sort of penalty.Elthamaddick said:
his stupid stuttering run up is ridiculous - he virtually stood still on the spot by the ball. Pick your spot, run up and hit it crisp and clean - it the keeper guesses the right way and saves it then fair playcharltonkeston said:Rashford did everything right with his penalty and missed by less than 4 inches. Saka's not so good but he stood up to be counted. Good save by the keeper for the other one.
The subs were correct, you need penalty takers on the pitch. The two that came on were not on there to do much other than take a penalty.
Anyone can miss or have a penalty saved. The European champions missed 2 of theirs.
Tactically we were good for the first 30 minutes then Italians were able to exploit our setup. 2nd half we were in danger of having a new arse torn for us, they were that dominant.
By anyone's measure we had a very successful Euros, only one team had better.
Fine margins between success and failure but still a great achievement to finish as runners up to a better team.
The only criticism I have of the players was the taking off the medals as soon as they were put on. Looked a bit childish to me.
if he practiced like that in training then I'd have hoped someone would've pulled him up on it3 -
https://twelveyards.substack.com/p/england-southgate-and-penalties
England, Southgate and penalties
Breaking down the Euro 2020 final shoot-out by Ben Lyttleton
Let’s get one thing clear here. This is not a return of England’s penalty curse. This is not England ‘reverting to type’ by losing another shoot-out. If anything, the events of the Euro 2020 final are the total opposite. Let me explain…2 -
Gareth has become 'Saint Gareth' in the eyes of many (not necessarily for football reasons) and is thus considered by some to be above criticism.
Did he do well to get us further in an international tournament than we have done for 55 years, absolutely.
However, anyone who knew anything about football could see the elephant sized flaw in his plan for the final, i.e sit back to defend a lead for more than two thirds of the game. The result was utterly predictable. Was it a shit plan? Absolutely.
Penalties are a disaster waiting to happen, as it proved. No blame should be attached to the takers, because they should not have been put in that position. If we had continued the early momentum and tried to go for more goals rather than shutting up shop with a quarter of the game played, then we could have avoided the situation entirely. For England to be playing for a penalty shootout with our history and the age of many of our players is insane.
If he shows that he can learn from this, then great. But if his overly defensive mindset means that we squander a generation of attacking players that are the envy of much of the world because of his tactical limitations and inability to react to the changing conditions of football games, then we need to thank him and move on to someone else with more courage and tactical nous.
He is England manager, but he is not England.5 -
Has Southgate over or under achieved with the group of players at his disposal?1
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I do question how much the long periods of defence were pre-planned opposed to Southgate coming up against an experienced and crafty manager with an excellent squad. Mancini's no mug and the Italian squad is top drawer, if lacking pace.
I'm not saying that Southgate is (or should be immune to criticism) entirely but I do think the quality of opposition both in terms of players and manager is being downplayed in some quarters.
Look at the Italian record before the game - yes there are a lot of smaller, weaker teams in there but you don't go thirty-plus games unbeaten just by being lucky.2 -
I wouldnt say he's over achieved, but dont think he's under achieved eitherMendonca In Asdas said:Has Southgate over or under achieved with the group of players at his disposal?
Are these players as good as the "Golden Generation" that only managed to reach three Quarter-Finals on the trot, I honestly dont think that they are... Not yet anyway yet have gotten further more consistently.
Its only been seven years since that awful display at the 2014 World Cup and only five since the Iceland defeat - Two years on from the latter, a lot of fans had given up on England, yet we suddenly went further than we had for 28-years.
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Putting aside the fact that I think France, Italy and Spain have better players, I don’t think you can ever say a semi final and a final from two major tournaments is an underachievement.Mendonca In Asdas said:Has Southgate over or under achieved with the group of players at his disposal?Even if you had the best squad in the world, it can still go wrong in 90 minutes and you’re gone. Look at France.
At the end of the day, you can have the best squad and the best players in the world and still not win a knockout tournament.9 -
Pulled by Downing Street or the players didn't want to be part of it?
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For a country like England, you would say par is a quarter final. So I would say Southgate is about 3 under par so far. The thing is, his tactics have got us to places we don't usually get to. But it is fair to draw an analogy with the WC semi final in that we got an early goal and could see and feel Croatia getting back into it and didn't really counter or try anything different.ForeverAddickted said:
I wouldnt say he's over achieved, but dont think he's under achieved eitherMendonca In Asdas said:Has Southgate over or under achieved with the group of players at his disposal?
Are these players as good as the "Golden Generation" that only managed to reach three Quarter-Finals on the trot, I honestly dont think that they are... Not yet anyway yet have gotten further more consistently.
Its only been seven years since that awful display at the 2014 World Cup and only five since the Iceland defeat - Two years on from the latter, a lot of fans had given up on England, yet we suddenly went further than we had for 28-years.
Maybe the learning for Southgate is not so much what he should have done, that would be for him and his staff to decide, but more that he should have done something to change the mood music. This is probably a bigger issue when you play better sides. Also getting an early goal against a decent side has been our downfall in the last two tournaments so there must be some learning there surely. Or does it have to happen three times?0
