England v Italy - THE FINAL - Match Thread

Garrymanilow said:

supaclive said:

Garrymanilow said:

supaclive said:

Garrymanilow said:

supaclive said:

Chiesa didn't even start as first choice for Italy at the beginning but was given the chance to show what he could do off the bench.   Our manager didn't give anybody (well maybe Grealish vs Germany) a chance to make a lasting impression off the bench.    I think the occassion was just too much for Saka last night - it may have been different if he'd started.

Mount was anonymous since coming back from isolation.   A shame because I really rate him, but where does he actually fit into 3-5-2 - he doesn't and putting a square peg in a round hole when Grealish, Sancho or Saka could play out wide right/left is a mistake.

I'll take runners up because this team has so much potential, but we need to be a little more positive when in the lead ,against the big boys.    We can take them on toe to toe - Maguire, Stones, Shaw and Walker were not our weaknesses this tournament so now Gareth needs to go for it more.

Mount was excellent yesterday. His role was to pick up Jorginho and stop him playing, and drop off to provide additional defensive support when Italy tried to get the ball wide. He was absolutely everywhere out of possession and a big part of why Italy didn't build up more of a head of steam throughout the match. When he got the ball he kept play moving forward and carved out a great chance towards the end that Saka couldn't manage to convert. It was the right choice to start with Mount, though I agree that Saka looked a bit overawed all night, Might have been better to bring Sancho on there, but that's the power of hindsight.

Not sure it's fair to criticise Southgate for not giving subs a chance to impress given we didn't concede until the semi-final. Why change the team if you've just beaten everyone you've come up against? Saka had exactly the same experience as Chiesa in fact; put in in the team in the third group game and then moved to the front of the queue when the team needed pace.

We can agree to disagree but Mount wasn't everywhere last night and it didn't work him playing wide.   His touch was off and he didn't offer enough from a wide man in a front 3.
Compared to what our wide players have offered in every game except the Scotland game.    Moving Sterling about lost his effectiveness, so sorry, I can't agree.

Yeah, he was. He popped up all over the pitch when Italy had the ball and to great effect. He wasn't there to play as a wide man in a front three in a traditional sense and he did what he was there to do very well. Some people unfortunately just don't get what Mount brings to the team, but the kind of hard-working performances he puts in chasing from the front are part of what got us to the final, even if they don't catch the eye.

So you must be right?   Of course, silly me.   You say so, so it is true.  That's why Mount was subbed not because he was ineffective and didn't do what we needed of him as a wide man in a front 3?   I hope Gareth takes you to Qatar, because you obviously are more qualified than me or thousands of other England fans.  :-)

Er, he played for 99 minutes before being subbed to make an attacking change. I think if he hadn't been doing his job he wouldn't have lasted into extra time. I don't need to be on the coaching staff to be able to understand what I'm seeing in front of me. The job Mount was being asked to do was pretty clear, and he did it. It wasn't exciting but he carried it out and then got taken off for a change in strategy towards the end. Which is probably a shame because Grealish didn't offer much and Mount would have taken a penalty.

So now you even know who were the official England penalty takers.   Jesus, you are on the coaching staff already.   Congratulations!    However, I agree with @Chunes.   He is on the pitch to be an attacking threat - which he didn't do enough of - I like him, but he is playing in the wrong position if we go 3-5-2.

ValleyGary said:

Why did he take Rice off?

The commentators seemed to think he had a knock when he got kicked on the foot.   I hope so as I thought he was magnificent in the final.

Sancho for Sterling was an obvious change throughout the second half and extra time. 

I assumed it wasn't made because Sterling was going to be a penalty taker...but guess not. So it's very puzzling why he wasn't changed. He was blowing for the whole second half and offered nothing after the first 30 minutes. 

Garrymanilow said:

supaclive said:

Garrymanilow said:

supaclive said:

Garrymanilow said:

supaclive said:

Garrymanilow said:

supaclive said:

Chiesa didn't even start as first choice for Italy at the beginning but was given the chance to show what he could do off the bench.   Our manager didn't give anybody (well maybe Grealish vs Germany) a chance to make a lasting impression off the bench.    I think the occassion was just too much for Saka last night - it may have been different if he'd started.

Mount was anonymous since coming back from isolation.   A shame because I really rate him, but where does he actually fit into 3-5-2 - he doesn't and putting a square peg in a round hole when Grealish, Sancho or Saka could play out wide right/left is a mistake.

I'll take runners up because this team has so much potential, but we need to be a little more positive when in the lead ,against the big boys.    We can take them on toe to toe - Maguire, Stones, Shaw and Walker were not our weaknesses this tournament so now Gareth needs to go for it more.

Mount was excellent yesterday. His role was to pick up Jorginho and stop him playing, and drop off to provide additional defensive support when Italy tried to get the ball wide. He was absolutely everywhere out of possession and a big part of why Italy didn't build up more of a head of steam throughout the match. When he got the ball he kept play moving forward and carved out a great chance towards the end that Saka couldn't manage to convert. It was the right choice to start with Mount, though I agree that Saka looked a bit overawed all night, Might have been better to bring Sancho on there, but that's the power of hindsight.

Not sure it's fair to criticise Southgate for not giving subs a chance to impress given we didn't concede until the semi-final. Why change the team if you've just beaten everyone you've come up against? Saka had exactly the same experience as Chiesa in fact; put in in the team in the third group game and then moved to the front of the queue when the team needed pace.

We can agree to disagree but Mount wasn't everywhere last night and it didn't work him playing wide.   His touch was off and he didn't offer enough from a wide man in a front 3.
Compared to what our wide players have offered in every game except the Scotland game.    Moving Sterling about lost his effectiveness, so sorry, I can't agree.

Yeah, he was. He popped up all over the pitch when Italy had the ball and to great effect. He wasn't there to play as a wide man in a front three in a traditional sense and he did what he was there to do very well. Some people unfortunately just don't get what Mount brings to the team, but the kind of hard-working performances he puts in chasing from the front are part of what got us to the final, even if they don't catch the eye.

So you must be right?   Of course, silly me.   You say so, so it is true.  That's why Mount was subbed not because he was ineffective and didn't do what we needed of him as a wide man in a front 3?   I hope Gareth takes you to Qatar, because you obviously are more qualified than me or thousands of other England fans.  :-)

Er, he played for 99 minutes before being subbed to make an attacking change. I think if he hadn't been doing his job he wouldn't have lasted into extra time. I don't need to be on the coaching staff to be able to understand what I'm seeing in front of me. The job Mount was being asked to do was pretty clear, and he did it. It wasn't exciting but he carried it out and then got taken off for a change in strategy towards the end. Which is probably a shame because Grealish didn't offer much and Mount would have taken a penalty.

So now you even know who were the official England penalty takers.   Jesus, you are on the coaching staff already.   Congratulations!    However, I agree with @Chunes.   He is on the pitch to be an attacking threat - which he didn't do enough of - I like him, but he is playing in the wrong position if we go 3-5-2.

I mean, Southgate said it after the game but sure, whatever. The thing you don't seem to be picking up on, which is hilariously ironic, is you're telling us what Mount was on the pitch to do. You don't decide that though, Southgate does, and Southgate put him there to nullify certain Italian threats while contributing to our forward play, which he did. Southgate had a choice between playing a more free attacking player and losing out on some solidity, or playing Mount and losing some attacking threat but being more defensively sound. You might not like the role Mount was asked to play but he did it well. I've just remembered that you're the person who told me I had 'shit in my eyes' when I said that playing Mount in the Nations League wasn't a ridiculous decision though so maybe it was my mistake to try and have a discussion with you about Mount. That's on me.

Dear Gary.   I've just said I like Mount - he has for sure, changed my opinion on that.  I believe that he's progressed into being an excellent central midfielder.   You may think he was on the pitch to nullify and not be an attacking threat - I would disagree and say that with an EXCELLENT back 4 or 5 - which has surprised most people this tournament (seeing as everybody thought we would be poor defensively), that we need more than 2 attacking players on the pitch.   One (Sterling) who had been our best attacking threat - and was moved out of position to accommodate Mount and Kane, who dropped deep very effectively for 25 minutes but over the whole game - 120 minutes, did not have one single touch in the opposition penalty area.

Therefore, and I believe (as does @Chunes) and other people, that Mount was played out of position and a more suitable player should have played wide to ensure our attacking threat was maximised better.

But you disagree.   It doesn't make you right though.   Play Mount in central midfield.   Don't play Mount as part of a front 3.   I'd have preferred a back 4, with three midfielders and Mount being the one that closed down Jorginho from the right position.

Ultimately England paid the price for their conservative approach, something that we had seen in the group stages and for which they were criticized widely.

Some great results against Germany, Ukraine and Denmark and much better performances but tonight the old habits came back, it was like Croatia 2018 all over again, we sat far too deep and invited Italy onto us and couldn't get going again.

This was my fear all along with England that we just have not got the team right in terms of playing under pressure, we haven't learnt from that last semi-final loss, under pressure we kept on giving the ball away and the Italians kept on coming at us.

In fact, if Chiesa hadn't come off then we'd have probably lost from open play, we couldn't handle him at all.

Sitting back and picking people off on the counter is fine to a certain extent but when you concede you are in big trouble because you can't just switch it back on again, the momentum is against you.

Southgate has done a fantastic job overall but we have got to learn to cope with the pressure in these big games and play around the press in the same way the Spanish did against Italy when they should have won.

Athletico Charlton said:

Lots of noise where I was watching it but did the ref really play England's advantage when we should have had a free kick on the edge of the penalty area with Trippier on the pitch and no real advantage on?  Then let Italy stamp on Grealish and pull Saka's shirt by the neck or am I wrong?

That was a wrong decision, but you can sort of understand why he made it. Agree though that in that position, a free kick would have been miles better.

Laddick01 said:

Croydon said:

That’s mind blowing.

Grealish in front of Sancho or Saka all day long.

Croydon said:

Roy Keane thinks he knows it all. Bloke can be a proper prick.

SuedeAdidas said:

Yeah....the Pen takers is a weird one. I don't see how you can decide in advance who will be talking them based upon stats and data alone.

As has been said numerous times - you cannot replicate the pressure in those situations and you have to go with those who are confident enough at the time.

I agree but that isn't the mentality we have. I think for the next tournament, the manager should behind closed doors let the players work out a system and go and get a coffee with the rest of his coaches. I would say we need a new culture around a player should be brave enough not to take one rather than brave enough to take one and go with who fancies it at the time. 

I've only seen one but Pickford can take a good penalty.

Garrymanilow said:

supaclive said:

Laddick01 said:

Chiesa was fantastic last night. Best player in the pitch by a long way.

We opted to play Mount wide instead. 

We don’t need to change too much for 2022 but we won’t win anything unless we can show a little more attacking intent.

Be careful @Garrymanilow will tell you that was tactical genius....

Was quite happy to let it lie after my last post but you appear to not have enough to do this morning. I never said it was tactical genius, I never even said I agreed with it, I just explained what his role was and that he carried it out well. Stop being silly.

I don't think he did.   I don't think that should be his role either.   We scored very early and he wasn't involved.  They scored and HE let his man get across him and HE was at fault for his marking and letting his man get the wrong side of him.

IF he'd been doing his job, HE would have attacked the ball and Pickford wouldn't have had to make a Worldy save which Bonucci turned in.   So I'm afraid, he offered little going forward, he didn't pick him man up for the goal and you say he did his job of closing down well - but neither you or I know if he was actually told to do that and I actually don't agree with you.

However, as I said, I think he's had a very decent season, but he shouldn't play where he was picked to play and he was at fault for letting his man get across him for their goal.

Oh and I am pretty sure I heard the pundits mention quite clearly he didn't do his job for the goal either.   By the way.   The issue I have here is the job he SHOULD be doing is from central midfield, NOT from wide because it completely nullfies us as an attacking threat.   You and I can argue until the cows come home, but we didn't win last night and we will always be left with a "What if" we hadn't sat back after taking such an early lead and "What if" we'd played Saka, Keane and Sterling as a front 3 who were so effective in previous games...