Michael Jackson , this is it

up_the_valley said:

Covered End said:

ValleyGary said:

Covered End said:

EastStand said:

AFKABartram said:

Not watched it or read anything about it.

Does it explain why these two gents have waited 10 years after his death to go public with their revelations?

No offence AFKA but it’s bewildering why this question is always asked of victims - it’s been answered a thousand times, by people far more knowledgeable and eloquent than me on this very forum. 

No offence, what's the answer then in the Jackson case ?

There is surely no time limit when you, the person abused, are ready to come forward. There maybe many deciding factors like school, work, personal relationships etc that may effect you hiding something as serious as this. Some people take decades before they are ready because it’s they who have been mentally and physically scared, not the abuser who’s been dead 10 days or 10 years.

Yes I understand all this. My point is, having only partly watched episode 1 ...
They haven't kept quiet for a long time until the time felt right, as far as I'm aware.
I thought they testified at his trial in 2005 (guess) and said he did nothing to them. (Apologies if wrong).
Why 14 years later say he did abuse them, after giving evidence in court saying he didn't ?

I think it's BS personally 

paulie8290 said:

JaShea99 said:

paulie8290 said:

JaShea99 said:

Interesting documentary but I personally don’t believe it.

Is there a reason why you dot believe it? 
Just curious

Plenty.

 Care to say?

JaShea99 said:

paulie8290 said:

JaShea99 said:

paulie8290 said:

JaShea99 said:

Interesting documentary but I personally don’t believe it.

Is there a reason why you dot believe it? 
Just curious

Plenty.

 Care to say?

There’s no point because most of the arguments have been made already and this will probably turn into one of those threads that you’re only allowed one opinion on.

MuttleyCAFC said:

If one of his accusers took a lie detector test, that would clear it up in my mind. Same thing with R-Kelly - instead of getting upset on camera, take a public lie detector test. 

JiMMy 85 said:

WSS said:

up_the_valley said:

paulie8290 said:

up_the_valley said:

North Lower Neil said:

I don't get why everyone suddenly thinks it's a fact on the basis of this documentary.

I used to think he definitely has a weird relationship with kids but wasn't sure if he was actually abusing them.

And now I think he definitely had a weird relationship with kids but I'm not sure if he actually abused them.

Probably did though.

It can never be a fact until proven. These two testified in 2005 that nothing ever happened, whilst in their mid to late 20's. Now, all of a sudden they 'realise' at the same time, after all these years, and having failed to sue his estate for millions, that they had been abused. I also don't believe they haven't made anything from the film, as claimed by the director.

I wonder if they were paid to stay quiet and they have waited this long as whatever they signed to stay quiet has expired

So lying in court, and covering up someone's hideous crimes against you for cash until the time has lapsed. Sounds good for credibility.

Why pay people off if you've got nothing to hide? Sounds good for credibility.

In the case of MJ, he was being sued by an utter scumbag in the form of Evan Chandler and iirc had to choose between cancelling his biggest ever world tour and going to court, or giving into Chandler’s extortion and paying what was, to Jackson, an insignificant amount to make the whole thing go away. 

In hindsight he chose poorly (even though the LAPD admitted they didn’t believe there was any compelling evidence of wrongdoing). It eventually led to another case a decade later (in which he was acquitted) and now this. 

Chandler wanted custody of his son and, more importantly, a huge pay off from Jackson. He was recorded admitting to drugging and effectively brainwashing his own boy (Jordan) to make this happen with the help of a dodgy, desperate lawyer. Jordan denied any molestation until that occurred. 

I haven't seen this doc yet. I listened to the director give an interview and honestly, I thought he came across as questionable at best. He was especially evasive when it came to the question of balance. 

IMHO Jackson was weird, inappropriate and a man child. But he wasn’t a child molester. Rather, he did a LOT of good for sick and underprivileged children. Hell, Corey Feldman has a crusade against Hollywood paedophilia going on yet he’s staunchly defended Jackson. As have the Culkin brothers and a number of others, including Jordan Chandler’s own mother. Given the sheer volume of children that went through Neverland, it just doesn’t fit that these two are the only victims (I absolutely discount Chandler and the 2005 case in which he was acquitted). 

I also think the press - especially our tabloids - conditioned us into believing some bizarre rumours about the man which made the molestation charges more realistic. 

Admittedly it’s been a long time since I read up on all this, but my opinion has long been that Evan Chandler ruined him in the long term. And I gather it’s why Chandler killed himself not long after Jackson died. 

JiMMy 85 said:

The Red Robin said:

JiMMy 85 said:

WSS said:

up_the_valley said:

paulie8290 said:

up_the_valley said:

North Lower Neil said:

I don't get why everyone suddenly thinks it's a fact on the basis of this documentary.

I used to think he definitely has a weird relationship with kids but wasn't sure if he was actually abusing them.

And now I think he definitely had a weird relationship with kids but I'm not sure if he actually abused them.

Probably did though.

It can never be a fact until proven. These two testified in 2005 that nothing ever happened, whilst in their mid to late 20's. Now, all of a sudden they 'realise' at the same time, after all these years, and having failed to sue his estate for millions, that they had been abused. I also don't believe they haven't made anything from the film, as claimed by the director.

I wonder if they were paid to stay quiet and they have waited this long as whatever they signed to stay quiet has expired

So lying in court, and covering up someone's hideous crimes against you for cash until the time has lapsed. Sounds good for credibility.

Why pay people off if you've got nothing to hide? Sounds good for credibility.

In the case of MJ, he was being sued by an utter scumbag in the form of Evan Chandler and iirc had to choose between cancelling his biggest ever world tour and going to court, or giving into Chandler’s extortion and paying what was, to Jackson, an insignificant amount to make the whole thing go away. 

In hindsight he chose poorly (even though the LAPD admitted they didn’t believe there was any compelling evidence of wrongdoing). It eventually led to another case a decade later (in which he was acquitted) and now this. 

Chandler wanted custody of his son and, more importantly, a huge pay off from Jackson. He was recorded admitting to drugging and effectively brainwashing his own boy (Jordan) to make this happen with the help of a dodgy, desperate lawyer. Jordan denied any molestation until that occurred. 

I haven't seen this doc yet. I listened to the director give an interview and honestly, I thought he came across as questionable at best. He was especially evasive when it came to the question of balance. 

IMHO Jackson was weird, inappropriate and a man child. But he wasn’t a child molester. Rather, he did a LOT of good for sick and underprivileged children. Hell, Corey Feldman has a crusade against Hollywood paedophilia going on yet he’s staunchly defended Jackson. As have the Culkin brothers and a number of others, including Jordan Chandler’s own mother. Given the sheer volume of children that went through Neverland, it just doesn’t fit that these two are the only victims (I absolutely discount Chandler and the 2005 case in which he was acquitted). 

I also think the press - especially our tabloids - conditioned us into believing some bizarre rumours about the man which made the molestation charges more realistic. 

Admittedly it’s been a long time since I read up on all this, but my opinion has long been that Evan Chandler ruined him in the long term. And I gather it’s why Chandler killed himself not long after Jackson died. 

So did Jimmy Saville on the face of it. 

I don’t respect that comparison. 

JiMMy 85 said:

The Red Robin said:

JiMMy 85 said:

WSS said:

up_the_valley said:

paulie8290 said:

up_the_valley said:

North Lower Neil said:

I don't get why everyone suddenly thinks it's a fact on the basis of this documentary.

I used to think he definitely has a weird relationship with kids but wasn't sure if he was actually abusing them.

And now I think he definitely had a weird relationship with kids but I'm not sure if he actually abused them.

Probably did though.

It can never be a fact until proven. These two testified in 2005 that nothing ever happened, whilst in their mid to late 20's. Now, all of a sudden they 'realise' at the same time, after all these years, and having failed to sue his estate for millions, that they had been abused. I also don't believe they haven't made anything from the film, as claimed by the director.

I wonder if they were paid to stay quiet and they have waited this long as whatever they signed to stay quiet has expired

So lying in court, and covering up someone's hideous crimes against you for cash until the time has lapsed. Sounds good for credibility.

Why pay people off if you've got nothing to hide? Sounds good for credibility.

In the case of MJ, he was being sued by an utter scumbag in the form of Evan Chandler and iirc had to choose between cancelling his biggest ever world tour and going to court, or giving into Chandler’s extortion and paying what was, to Jackson, an insignificant amount to make the whole thing go away. 

In hindsight he chose poorly (even though the LAPD admitted they didn’t believe there was any compelling evidence of wrongdoing). It eventually led to another case a decade later (in which he was acquitted) and now this. 

Chandler wanted custody of his son and, more importantly, a huge pay off from Jackson. He was recorded admitting to drugging and effectively brainwashing his own boy (Jordan) to make this happen with the help of a dodgy, desperate lawyer. Jordan denied any molestation until that occurred. 

I haven't seen this doc yet. I listened to the director give an interview and honestly, I thought he came across as questionable at best. He was especially evasive when it came to the question of balance. 

IMHO Jackson was weird, inappropriate and a man child. But he wasn’t a child molester. Rather, he did a LOT of good for sick and underprivileged children. Hell, Corey Feldman has a crusade against Hollywood paedophilia going on yet he’s staunchly defended Jackson. As have the Culkin brothers and a number of others, including Jordan Chandler’s own mother. Given the sheer volume of children that went through Neverland, it just doesn’t fit that these two are the only victims (I absolutely discount Chandler and the 2005 case in which he was acquitted). 

I also think the press - especially our tabloids - conditioned us into believing some bizarre rumours about the man which made the molestation charges more realistic. 

Admittedly it’s been a long time since I read up on all this, but my opinion has long been that Evan Chandler ruined him in the long term. And I gather it’s why Chandler killed himself not long after Jackson died. 

So did Jimmy Saville on the face of it. 

I don’t respect that comparison. 

The Red Robin said:

JiMMy 85 said:

The Red Robin said:

JiMMy 85 said:

WSS said:

up_the_valley said:

paulie8290 said:

up_the_valley said:

North Lower Neil said:

I don't get why everyone suddenly thinks it's a fact on the basis of this documentary.

I used to think he definitely has a weird relationship with kids but wasn't sure if he was actually abusing them.

And now I think he definitely had a weird relationship with kids but I'm not sure if he actually abused them.

Probably did though.

It can never be a fact until proven. These two testified in 2005 that nothing ever happened, whilst in their mid to late 20's. Now, all of a sudden they 'realise' at the same time, after all these years, and having failed to sue his estate for millions, that they had been abused. I also don't believe they haven't made anything from the film, as claimed by the director.

I wonder if they were paid to stay quiet and they have waited this long as whatever they signed to stay quiet has expired

So lying in court, and covering up someone's hideous crimes against you for cash until the time has lapsed. Sounds good for credibility.

Why pay people off if you've got nothing to hide? Sounds good for credibility.

In the case of MJ, he was being sued by an utter scumbag in the form of Evan Chandler and iirc had to choose between cancelling his biggest ever world tour and going to court, or giving into Chandler’s extortion and paying what was, to Jackson, an insignificant amount to make the whole thing go away. 

In hindsight he chose poorly (even though the LAPD admitted they didn’t believe there was any compelling evidence of wrongdoing). It eventually led to another case a decade later (in which he was acquitted) and now this. 

Chandler wanted custody of his son and, more importantly, a huge pay off from Jackson. He was recorded admitting to drugging and effectively brainwashing his own boy (Jordan) to make this happen with the help of a dodgy, desperate lawyer. Jordan denied any molestation until that occurred. 

I haven't seen this doc yet. I listened to the director give an interview and honestly, I thought he came across as questionable at best. He was especially evasive when it came to the question of balance. 

IMHO Jackson was weird, inappropriate and a man child. But he wasn’t a child molester. Rather, he did a LOT of good for sick and underprivileged children. Hell, Corey Feldman has a crusade against Hollywood paedophilia going on yet he’s staunchly defended Jackson. As have the Culkin brothers and a number of others, including Jordan Chandler’s own mother. Given the sheer volume of children that went through Neverland, it just doesn’t fit that these two are the only victims (I absolutely discount Chandler and the 2005 case in which he was acquitted). 

I also think the press - especially our tabloids - conditioned us into believing some bizarre rumours about the man which made the molestation charges more realistic. 

Admittedly it’s been a long time since I read up on all this, but my opinion has long been that Evan Chandler ruined him in the long term. And I gather it’s why Chandler killed himself not long after Jackson died. 

So did Jimmy Saville on the face of it. 

I don’t respect that comparison. 

It's exactly the same. 

JiMMy 85 said:

The Red Robin said:

JiMMy 85 said:

The Red Robin said:

JiMMy 85 said:

WSS said:

up_the_valley said:

paulie8290 said:

up_the_valley said:

North Lower Neil said:

I don't get why everyone suddenly thinks it's a fact on the basis of this documentary.

I used to think he definitely has a weird relationship with kids but wasn't sure if he was actually abusing them.

And now I think he definitely had a weird relationship with kids but I'm not sure if he actually abused them.

Probably did though.

It can never be a fact until proven. These two testified in 2005 that nothing ever happened, whilst in their mid to late 20's. Now, all of a sudden they 'realise' at the same time, after all these years, and having failed to sue his estate for millions, that they had been abused. I also don't believe they haven't made anything from the film, as claimed by the director.

I wonder if they were paid to stay quiet and they have waited this long as whatever they signed to stay quiet has expired

So lying in court, and covering up someone's hideous crimes against you for cash until the time has lapsed. Sounds good for credibility.

Why pay people off if you've got nothing to hide? Sounds good for credibility.

In the case of MJ, he was being sued by an utter scumbag in the form of Evan Chandler and iirc had to choose between cancelling his biggest ever world tour and going to court, or giving into Chandler’s extortion and paying what was, to Jackson, an insignificant amount to make the whole thing go away. 

In hindsight he chose poorly (even though the LAPD admitted they didn’t believe there was any compelling evidence of wrongdoing). It eventually led to another case a decade later (in which he was acquitted) and now this. 

Chandler wanted custody of his son and, more importantly, a huge pay off from Jackson. He was recorded admitting to drugging and effectively brainwashing his own boy (Jordan) to make this happen with the help of a dodgy, desperate lawyer. Jordan denied any molestation until that occurred. 

I haven't seen this doc yet. I listened to the director give an interview and honestly, I thought he came across as questionable at best. He was especially evasive when it came to the question of balance. 

IMHO Jackson was weird, inappropriate and a man child. But he wasn’t a child molester. Rather, he did a LOT of good for sick and underprivileged children. Hell, Corey Feldman has a crusade against Hollywood paedophilia going on yet he’s staunchly defended Jackson. As have the Culkin brothers and a number of others, including Jordan Chandler’s own mother. Given the sheer volume of children that went through Neverland, it just doesn’t fit that these two are the only victims (I absolutely discount Chandler and the 2005 case in which he was acquitted). 

I also think the press - especially our tabloids - conditioned us into believing some bizarre rumours about the man which made the molestation charges more realistic. 

Admittedly it’s been a long time since I read up on all this, but my opinion has long been that Evan Chandler ruined him in the long term. And I gather it’s why Chandler killed himself not long after Jackson died. 

So did Jimmy Saville on the face of it. 

I don’t respect that comparison. 

It's exactly the same. 

There’s a big question mark over whether Jackson molested or indeed hurt anybody. 

Saville molested hundreds of women and children and had sex with corpses. 

i_b_b_o_r_g said:

JiMMy 85 said:

The Red Robin said:

JiMMy 85 said:

The Red Robin said:

JiMMy 85 said:

WSS said:

up_the_valley said:

paulie8290 said:

up_the_valley said:

North Lower Neil said:

I don't get why everyone suddenly thinks it's a fact on the basis of this documentary.

I used to think he definitely has a weird relationship with kids but wasn't sure if he was actually abusing them.

And now I think he definitely had a weird relationship with kids but I'm not sure if he actually abused them.

Probably did though.

It can never be a fact until proven. These two testified in 2005 that nothing ever happened, whilst in their mid to late 20's. Now, all of a sudden they 'realise' at the same time, after all these years, and having failed to sue his estate for millions, that they had been abused. I also don't believe they haven't made anything from the film, as claimed by the director.

I wonder if they were paid to stay quiet and they have waited this long as whatever they signed to stay quiet has expired

So lying in court, and covering up someone's hideous crimes against you for cash until the time has lapsed. Sounds good for credibility.

Why pay people off if you've got nothing to hide? Sounds good for credibility.

In the case of MJ, he was being sued by an utter scumbag in the form of Evan Chandler and iirc had to choose between cancelling his biggest ever world tour and going to court, or giving into Chandler’s extortion and paying what was, to Jackson, an insignificant amount to make the whole thing go away. 

In hindsight he chose poorly (even though the LAPD admitted they didn’t believe there was any compelling evidence of wrongdoing). It eventually led to another case a decade later (in which he was acquitted) and now this. 

Chandler wanted custody of his son and, more importantly, a huge pay off from Jackson. He was recorded admitting to drugging and effectively brainwashing his own boy (Jordan) to make this happen with the help of a dodgy, desperate lawyer. Jordan denied any molestation until that occurred. 

I haven't seen this doc yet. I listened to the director give an interview and honestly, I thought he came across as questionable at best. He was especially evasive when it came to the question of balance. 

IMHO Jackson was weird, inappropriate and a man child. But he wasn’t a child molester. Rather, he did a LOT of good for sick and underprivileged children. Hell, Corey Feldman has a crusade against Hollywood paedophilia going on yet he’s staunchly defended Jackson. As have the Culkin brothers and a number of others, including Jordan Chandler’s own mother. Given the sheer volume of children that went through Neverland, it just doesn’t fit that these two are the only victims (I absolutely discount Chandler and the 2005 case in which he was acquitted). 

I also think the press - especially our tabloids - conditioned us into believing some bizarre rumours about the man which made the molestation charges more realistic. 

Admittedly it’s been a long time since I read up on all this, but my opinion has long been that Evan Chandler ruined him in the long term. And I gather it’s why Chandler killed himself not long after Jackson died. 

So did Jimmy Saville on the face of it. 

I don’t respect that comparison. 

It's exactly the same. 

There’s a big question mark over whether Jackson molested or indeed hurt anybody. 

Saville molested hundreds of women and children and had sex with corpses. 

But the comparison was that, like Jacko, Savile "did a LOT of good for sick and underprivileged children" and he still turned out to be a nonce

JiMMy 85 said:

The Red Robin said:

JiMMy 85 said:

The Red Robin said:

JiMMy 85 said:

The Red Robin said:

JiMMy 85 said:

WSS said:

up_the_valley said:

paulie8290 said:

up_the_valley said:

North Lower Neil said:

I don't get why everyone suddenly thinks it's a fact on the basis of this documentary.

I used to think he definitely has a weird relationship with kids but wasn't sure if he was actually abusing them.

And now I think he definitely had a weird relationship with kids but I'm not sure if he actually abused them.

Probably did though.

It can never be a fact until proven. These two testified in 2005 that nothing ever happened, whilst in their mid to late 20's. Now, all of a sudden they 'realise' at the same time, after all these years, and having failed to sue his estate for millions, that they had been abused. I also don't believe they haven't made anything from the film, as claimed by the director.

I wonder if they were paid to stay quiet and they have waited this long as whatever they signed to stay quiet has expired

So lying in court, and covering up someone's hideous crimes against you for cash until the time has lapsed. Sounds good for credibility.

Why pay people off if you've got nothing to hide? Sounds good for credibility.

In the case of MJ, he was being sued by an utter scumbag in the form of Evan Chandler and iirc had to choose between cancelling his biggest ever world tour and going to court, or giving into Chandler’s extortion and paying what was, to Jackson, an insignificant amount to make the whole thing go away. 

In hindsight he chose poorly (even though the LAPD admitted they didn’t believe there was any compelling evidence of wrongdoing). It eventually led to another case a decade later (in which he was acquitted) and now this. 

Chandler wanted custody of his son and, more importantly, a huge pay off from Jackson. He was recorded admitting to drugging and effectively brainwashing his own boy (Jordan) to make this happen with the help of a dodgy, desperate lawyer. Jordan denied any molestation until that occurred. 

I haven't seen this doc yet. I listened to the director give an interview and honestly, I thought he came across as questionable at best. He was especially evasive when it came to the question of balance. 

IMHO Jackson was weird, inappropriate and a man child. But he wasn’t a child molester. Rather, he did a LOT of good for sick and underprivileged children. Hell, Corey Feldman has a crusade against Hollywood paedophilia going on yet he’s staunchly defended Jackson. As have the Culkin brothers and a number of others, including Jordan Chandler’s own mother. Given the sheer volume of children that went through Neverland, it just doesn’t fit that these two are the only victims (I absolutely discount Chandler and the 2005 case in which he was acquitted). 

I also think the press - especially our tabloids - conditioned us into believing some bizarre rumours about the man which made the molestation charges more realistic. 

Admittedly it’s been a long time since I read up on all this, but my opinion has long been that Evan Chandler ruined him in the long term. And I gather it’s why Chandler killed himself not long after Jackson died. 

So did Jimmy Saville on the face of it. 

I don’t respect that comparison. 

It's exactly the same. 

There’s a big question mark over whether Jackson molested or indeed hurt anybody. 

Saville molested hundreds of women and children and had sex with corpses. 

There's a question for you. I have no doubt about Jackson. 

I think it’s mad to be that certain based on TV shows. 

ValleyGary said:

JiMMy 85 said:

i_b_b_o_r_g said:

JiMMy 85 said:

The Red Robin said:

JiMMy 85 said:

The Red Robin said:

JiMMy 85 said:

WSS said:

up_the_valley said:

paulie8290 said:

up_the_valley said:

North Lower Neil said:

I don't get why everyone suddenly thinks it's a fact on the basis of this documentary.

I used to think he definitely has a weird relationship with kids but wasn't sure if he was actually abusing them.

And now I think he definitely had a weird relationship with kids but I'm not sure if he actually abused them.

Probably did though.

It can never be a fact until proven. These two testified in 2005 that nothing ever happened, whilst in their mid to late 20's. Now, all of a sudden they 'realise' at the same time, after all these years, and having failed to sue his estate for millions, that they had been abused. I also don't believe they haven't made anything from the film, as claimed by the director.

I wonder if they were paid to stay quiet and they have waited this long as whatever they signed to stay quiet has expired

So lying in court, and covering up someone's hideous crimes against you for cash until the time has lapsed. Sounds good for credibility.

Why pay people off if you've got nothing to hide? Sounds good for credibility.

In the case of MJ, he was being sued by an utter scumbag in the form of Evan Chandler and iirc had to choose between cancelling his biggest ever world tour and going to court, or giving into Chandler’s extortion and paying what was, to Jackson, an insignificant amount to make the whole thing go away. 

In hindsight he chose poorly (even though the LAPD admitted they didn’t believe there was any compelling evidence of wrongdoing). It eventually led to another case a decade later (in which he was acquitted) and now this. 

Chandler wanted custody of his son and, more importantly, a huge pay off from Jackson. He was recorded admitting to drugging and effectively brainwashing his own boy (Jordan) to make this happen with the help of a dodgy, desperate lawyer. Jordan denied any molestation until that occurred. 

I haven't seen this doc yet. I listened to the director give an interview and honestly, I thought he came across as questionable at best. He was especially evasive when it came to the question of balance. 

IMHO Jackson was weird, inappropriate and a man child. But he wasn’t a child molester. Rather, he did a LOT of good for sick and underprivileged children. Hell, Corey Feldman has a crusade against Hollywood paedophilia going on yet he’s staunchly defended Jackson. As have the Culkin brothers and a number of others, including Jordan Chandler’s own mother. Given the sheer volume of children that went through Neverland, it just doesn’t fit that these two are the only victims (I absolutely discount Chandler and the 2005 case in which he was acquitted). 

I also think the press - especially our tabloids - conditioned us into believing some bizarre rumours about the man which made the molestation charges more realistic. 

Admittedly it’s been a long time since I read up on all this, but my opinion has long been that Evan Chandler ruined him in the long term. And I gather it’s why Chandler killed himself not long after Jackson died. 

So did Jimmy Saville on the face of it. 

I don’t respect that comparison. 

It's exactly the same. 

There’s a big question mark over whether Jackson molested or indeed hurt anybody. 

Saville molested hundreds of women and children and had sex with corpses. 

But the comparison was that, like Jacko, Savile "did a LOT of good for sick and underprivileged children" and he still turned out to be a nonce

The point I was making is that it’s potentially tragic that he didn’t hurt anyone but did a lot of good, but will be vilified for assaulting the very people he helped (although I accept I don’t know the full facts to make a certain call).
 
 So I think it’s reductive to then compare the situation to a confirmed serial rapist. 

I personally think 7 year olds being put in a position of sharing a bed with a fully grown man enough damage. To what extent any abuse took place is obviously a huge factor but the situation itself is wrong for a kid.

The Red Robin said:

Whatever you think, ask yourself if you'd share your bed with little boys you've no relation to. Over and over again. That is not normal behavior.