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Ranking the 92
DyerConsequences
Posts: 2,625
I was having a debate I'm sure many of us have had before over the weekend. Where should we be? Are we a lower Premier league team? A mid-table Championship team? Or quite frankly should we just consider ourselves fortunate we're in the football league at all?
Personally I've always thought of us as a mid-table Championship side (somewhere between 7th and 16th). The two people I was having the discussion with (Villa and Tottenham fans) were both adamant they were top 6 Premier League clubs.
But what does history, fan size and the trophy cabinet suggest? Over the past couple of days we've not done nearly enough work compiled the below list - far from agreed on all of them but it's as close to a consensus as we could manage.
I'd be interested to hear other people's thoughts on who is too high and who is too low.
1. Man Utd
2. Liverpool
3. Arsenal
4. Everton
5. Aston Villa
6. Tottenham
7. Chelsea
8. Man City
9. Newcastle
10. Leeds
11. Nottm Forest
12. Sunderland
13. Wolves
14. Sheff Wed
15. Huddersfield
16. Blackburn
17. Derby
18. Preston
19. West Ham
20. Ipswich
21. West Brom
22. Sheff Utd
23. Portsmouth
24. Burnley
25. Leicester
26. Birmingham
27. QPR
28. Fulham
29. Bolton
30. Norwich
31. Southampton
32. Charlton
33. Blackpool
34. Stoke
35. Coventry
36. Watford
37. Middlesbrough
38. Crystal Palace
39. Cardiff
40. Bury
41. Swansea
42. Brighton
43. Luton
44. Bradford
45. Oxford
46. Bristol City
47. Millwall
48. Reading
49. AFC Wimbledon (Counted old Wimbledon history as well)
50. Oldham
51. Wigan
52. Barnsley
53. Brentford
54. Doncaster
55. Notts County
56. Peterborough
57. Plymouth
58. Swindon
59. Hull
60. Port Vale
61. Southend
62. Rotherham
63. Bristol Rovers
64. Bournemouth
65. Tranmere
66. Colchester
67. Cambridge
68. Crewe
69. Wycombe
70. Grimsby
71. Scunthorpe
72. Exeter
73. Walsall
74. Gillingham
75. Carlisle
76. Northampton
77. Lincoln
78. Shrewsbury
79. Yeovil
80. Newport
81. Rochdale
82. Accrington
83. Burton
84. Mansfield
85. MK Dons
86. Stevenage
87. Fleetwood
88. Cheltenham
89. Macclesfield
90. Crawley
91. Morecambe
92. Forest Green
Personally I've always thought of us as a mid-table Championship side (somewhere between 7th and 16th). The two people I was having the discussion with (Villa and Tottenham fans) were both adamant they were top 6 Premier League clubs.
But what does history, fan size and the trophy cabinet suggest? Over the past couple of days we've not done nearly enough work compiled the below list - far from agreed on all of them but it's as close to a consensus as we could manage.
I'd be interested to hear other people's thoughts on who is too high and who is too low.
1. Man Utd
2. Liverpool
3. Arsenal
4. Everton
5. Aston Villa
6. Tottenham
7. Chelsea
8. Man City
9. Newcastle
10. Leeds
11. Nottm Forest
12. Sunderland
13. Wolves
14. Sheff Wed
15. Huddersfield
16. Blackburn
17. Derby
18. Preston
19. West Ham
20. Ipswich
21. West Brom
22. Sheff Utd
23. Portsmouth
24. Burnley
25. Leicester
26. Birmingham
27. QPR
28. Fulham
29. Bolton
30. Norwich
31. Southampton
32. Charlton
33. Blackpool
34. Stoke
35. Coventry
36. Watford
37. Middlesbrough
38. Crystal Palace
39. Cardiff
40. Bury
41. Swansea
42. Brighton
43. Luton
44. Bradford
45. Oxford
46. Bristol City
47. Millwall
48. Reading
49. AFC Wimbledon (Counted old Wimbledon history as well)
50. Oldham
51. Wigan
52. Barnsley
53. Brentford
54. Doncaster
55. Notts County
56. Peterborough
57. Plymouth
58. Swindon
59. Hull
60. Port Vale
61. Southend
62. Rotherham
63. Bristol Rovers
64. Bournemouth
65. Tranmere
66. Colchester
67. Cambridge
68. Crewe
69. Wycombe
70. Grimsby
71. Scunthorpe
72. Exeter
73. Walsall
74. Gillingham
75. Carlisle
76. Northampton
77. Lincoln
78. Shrewsbury
79. Yeovil
80. Newport
81. Rochdale
82. Accrington
83. Burton
84. Mansfield
85. MK Dons
86. Stevenage
87. Fleetwood
88. Cheltenham
89. Macclesfield
90. Crawley
91. Morecambe
92. Forest Green
1
Comments
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My thoughts are you have plenty of time on your hands, so must be retired 😉
These lists are always hard as there are so many aspects to consider and the importance one person applies to a category (away support / trophies for example) will be different to the next person).
Ive never seen someone rate the full 92 though, so well done.1 -
Can I just ask, for transparency, have you factored in the cheese room to your calculations for Tottenham Hotspur?7
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JohnBoyUK said:Can I just ask, for transparency, have you factored in the cheese room to your calculations for Tottenham Hotspur?
No that wasn't factored in. TBH with Tottenham and Villa I let them argue it out. They both wanted to be above the other, however I think the European success for Villa got them the nod in the end.
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A bit surprised Everton are as high as 4th.
10th would seem about right for them imo.1 -
https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11096/11373570/sky-sports-ultimate-league-201718-overachieving-and-underachieving-clubs-revealed
Sky did something fairly similar for the last 50 years which I think is more realistic than factoring in FA Cup wins in 1897 or League wins in 1903 when a lot of clubs didn't exist. The Sky list thus has Southampton massively higher, but then they've been a top flight side for most of the last 40 years
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We were all agreed on the top 4 pretty much straightaway given the history, fanbases and seasons in the top flight for those clubs.blackpool72 said:A bit surprised Everton are as high as 4th.
10th would seem about right for them imo.
Although we gave a little uplift for more recent success we tried not to let it push down clubs with great histories.
Out of interest who would you have above them?0 -
NO#
CLUB TITLES DETAILS 1 Manchester United 42 20 League Titles, 12 FA Cups, 5 League Cups, 3 Champions League, 1 Europa League, 1 FIFA Club WC 2 Liverpool 41 18 League Titles, 7 FA Cups, 8 League Cups, 5 European Title, 3 UEFA Cups 3 Arsenal 30 13 League Titles, 13 FA Cups, 2 League Cups, 2 UEFA Cups 4 Chelsea 22 6 League Titles, 7 FA Cups, 5 League Cups, 1 European Title., 3 UEFA Cups 5 Aston Villa 20 7 League Titles, 7 FA Cups, 5 League Cups, 1 European Title 6 Everton 15 9 League Titles, 5 FA Cups, 1 UEFA Cups 7 Tottenham 17 2 League Titles, 8 FA Cups, 4 League Cups, 3 UEFA Cups 8 Man City 14 4 League titles, 5 FA Cups, 4 League Cups, 1 UEFA Cup 9 Newcastle Utd 11 4 League, 6 FA Cups, 1 UEFA Cup 10 Sunderland 8 6 League Titles, 2 FA Cups
Not current of course but the above is a historical ranking based on trophies won.11 Blackburn 10 3 League Titles, 6 FA Cups, 1 league Cup 12 Wolverhampton 9 3 League Titles, 4 FA Cups, 2 League Cups 13 Nottingham Forest 9 1 League Title, 2 FA Cup, 4 League Cups, 2 European Title 14 Sheffield Wed 8 4 League Titles, 1 FA Cup, 3 League Cup 15 Leeds United 7 3 League Title, 1 FA Cup, 1 League Cup, 2 UEFA Cup 16 West Brom 7 1 League, 5 FA Cups, 1 League Cup 17 Huddersfield 4 3 League titles, 1 FA Cup 18 Sheffield United 5 1 League title, 4 FA Cup 19 Portsmouth 4 2 League titles, 2 FA Cup 20 Preston 4 2 League titles, 2 FA Cup 21 Burnley 3 2 League titles, 1 FA Cup 22 Derby 3 2 League titles, 1 FA Cup
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I worked out Charlton's average league position a couple of years back, and I think it was around the 30th mark.1
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JamesSeed said:I worked out Charlton's average league position a couple of years back, and I think it was around the 30th mark.
As at 2015CLUBS RANKED BY AVERAGE LEAGUE FINISH Rank Club Average finish Years in league 1 Liverpool 8.26 110 2 Arsenal 8.78 110 3 Everton 9.71 115 4 Manchester United 10.42 111 5 Aston Villa 11.27 115 6 Tottenham Hotspur 12.4 95 7 Chelsea 13.66 98 8 Newcastle United 14.17 110 9 Manchester City 14.23 111 10 Sunderland 15.46 113 11 West Bromich Albion 17.89 115 12 Leeds United 18.99 87 13 West Ham United 19 88 14 Blackburn Rovers 19.12 115 15 Derby County 20.11 115 16 Wolverhampton Wanderers 20.65 115 17 Middlesbrough 20.76 104 18 Bolton Wanderers 20.77 115 19 Sheffield Wednesday 21.05 111 20 Sheffield United 21.63 111 21 Birmingham City 22.32 111 22 Stoke City 23 107 23 Nottingham Forest 23.07 111 24 Leicester City 23.17 109 25 Burnley 27.06 115 26 Southampton 27.75 87 27 Ipswich Town 29.8 69 28 Preston North End 29.89 115 29 Portsmouth 31.02 87 30 Huddersfield Town 33.6 93 31 Charlton Athletic 34.06 86 32 Fulham 34.15 96 33 Blackpool 35.05 106 34 Coventry City 37.08 88 35 Norwich City 41.2 87 36 Notts County 42.17 115 37 Cardiff City 42.43 87 38 Barnsley 42.63 105 39 Hull City 43.43 98 40 Queens Park Rangers 43.48 87 41 Luton Town 43.58 85 42 Oldham Athletic 44.17 96 43 Bury 44.24 109 44 Bristol City 45.33 102 45 Crystal Palace 46.28 87 46 Wigan Athletic 48.5 36 47 Bradford City 50.02 100 48 Millwall 50.21 87 49 Swansea City 50.92 87 50 Oxford United 52.52 48 51 Watford 53.11 87 52 Reading 55.78 87 53 Leyton Orient 56.44 98 54 Brighton and Hove Albion 57.17 87 55 Brentford 58.1 87 56 Carlisle United 59.27 78 57 Swindon Town 60 87 58 Northampton Town 72.74 87 59 AFC Wimbledon 86.67 3 Proof, if needed, that we are indeed South London's Number 1
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Glad my thinking of a mid-table Championship side was about right then.JamesSeed said:I worked out Charlton's average league position a couple of years back, and I think it was around the 30th mark.0 - Sponsored links:
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West Ham 19th is a wild call! But I guess, seeing as they're our rivals, or something0
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the average league position of last 50 years (as at end of 2017/18 seasons)
I am not sure what the +/- column refers to.
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Looking at that Middlesbrough could be way too low on our list then.bobmunro said:JamesSeed said:I worked out Charlton's average league position a couple of years back, and I think it was around the 30th mark.As at 2015CLUBS RANKED BY AVERAGE LEAGUE FINISH Rank Club Average finish Years in league 1 Liverpool 8.26 110 2 Arsenal 8.78 110 3 Everton 9.71 115 4 Manchester United 10.42 111 5 Aston Villa 11.27 115 6 Tottenham Hotspur 12.4 95 7 Chelsea 13.66 98 8 Newcastle United 14.17 110 9 Manchester City 14.23 111 10 Sunderland 15.46 113 11 West Bromich Albion 17.89 115 12 Leeds United 18.99 87 13 West Ham United 19 88 14 Blackburn Rovers 19.12 115 15 Derby County 20.11 115 16 Wolverhampton Wanderers 20.65 115 17 Middlesbrough 20.76 104 18 Bolton Wanderers 20.77 115 19 Sheffield Wednesday 21.05 111 20 Sheffield United 21.63 111 21 Birmingham City 22.32 111 22 Stoke City 23 107 23 Nottingham Forest 23.07 111 24 Leicester City 23.17 109 25 Burnley 27.06 115 26 Southampton 27.75 87 27 Ipswich Town 29.8 69 28 Preston North End 29.89 115 29 Portsmouth 31.02 87 30 Huddersfield Town 33.6 93 31 Charlton Athletic 34.06 86 32 Fulham 34.15 96 33 Blackpool 35.05 106 34 Coventry City 37.08 88 35 Norwich City 41.2 87 36 Notts County 42.17 115 37 Cardiff City 42.43 87 38 Barnsley 42.63 105 39 Hull City 43.43 98 40 Queens Park Rangers 43.48 87 41 Luton Town 43.58 85 42 Oldham Athletic 44.17 96 43 Bury 44.24 109 44 Bristol City 45.33 102 45 Crystal Palace 46.28 87 46 Wigan Athletic 48.5 36 47 Bradford City 50.02 100 48 Millwall 50.21 87 49 Swansea City 50.92 87 50 Oxford United 52.52 48 51 Watford 53.11 87 52 Reading 55.78 87 53 Leyton Orient 56.44 98 54 Brighton and Hove Albion 57.17 87 55 Brentford 58.1 87 56 Carlisle United 59.27 78 57 Swindon Town 60 87 58 Northampton Town 72.74 87 59 AFC Wimbledon 86.67 3 0 -
We tried to be as neutral as possible but having a Charlton and Tottenham fan on the panel probably didn't help them. I guess there's a lack of league titles based on those above.Leuth said:West Ham 19th is a wild call! But I guess, seeing as they're our rivals, or something0 -
MrOneLung said:the average league position of last 50 years (as at end of 2017/18 seasons)
I am not sure what the +/- column refers to.Just refers to the difference from actual position.
Example, Charlton are ranked 30th on the overall, all time table. But in 17/18 we finished 50th of the 92. hence -20
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How can Fulham and QPR be above us - what have they ever done that we haven't?1
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Sky actually did something that acknowledged that football existed before the Premier League?!?killerandflash said:https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11096/11373570/sky-sports-ultimate-league-201718-overachieving-and-underachieving-clubs-revealed
Sky did something fairly similar for the last 50 years which I think is more realistic than factoring in FA Cup wins in 1897 or League wins in 1903 when a lot of clubs didn't exist. The Sky list thus has Southampton massively higher, but then they've been a top flight side for most of the last 40 years0 -
I think there is only one, proper, established way of determining supremacy of English football teams. I have always used this method.
- Dismiss all league records, since it's unfair to compare the comparative efforts of teams in different divisions.
- Only consider the FA Cup, since that's the only true, fully-open competition, played on level terms from clubs all over the country.
- As there is no point taking into account the very early seasons of professional football in this country, the start date should be the end of the second world war.
- Only take into account teams reaching the Final, since there are too many potential mismatches in terms of relative strength of teams.
- Count one point for a team reaching the Final and losing; two points for a team reaching the Final and winning.
- Continue counting until you reach the end of a complete decade. At that time, if there is a clear winner - ie a team with more points than any other team - stop, as you will have conclusive, irrefutable evidence as to the country's number one team.
The resulting table looks like thisThe best football teams in England, ever
1st. CHARLTON ATHLETIC 3pts
2nd = Derby County 2pts
2nd = Manchester United 2pts
2nd = Wolves 2pts
2nd =Arsenal 2pts
6th = Burnley 1pt
6th = Blackpool 1pt
6th = Leicester City 1pt
6th = Liverpool 1pt
10th = everyone else 0pt
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Right now, I'd say we are 49th or 50th if you reckon Doncaster will win their games in hand. That's the reality.0
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killerandflash said:https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11096/11373570/sky-sports-ultimate-league-201718-overachieving-and-underachieving-clubs-revealed
Sky did something fairly similar for the last 50 years which I think is more realistic than factoring in FA Cup wins in 1897 or League wins in 1903 when a lot of clubs didn't exist. The Sky list thus has Southampton massively higher, but then they've been a top flight side for most of the last 40 years
Not sure about that list. I guess it proves that palace have done better league postion wise over the years but that list doesn't reflect how big a team is. You could never say palace are bigger than wolves, Birmingham, Portsmouth and both Sheffield clubs.0 - Sponsored links:
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As long as history says we are above Palace and Millwall I really couldn't care less!1
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Good job it's not based upon cup form. We must be about 70th based on that despite the immediate post-War aberration.
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