Declan Rice chooses England
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Zaha is massively overrated imo. Can't believe the hype surrounding himpalarsehater said:wilifred zaha2011 England U19 2 (0) 2012–2013 England U21 13 (1) 2012–2013 England 2 (0) 2017– Ivory Coast 8 (2)
alex iwobi2011–2012 England U16 7 (1) 2013 England U17 3 (0) 2013 England U18 1 (0) 2015– Nigeria 21 (5
both of the above probably factor in that the ivory coast and nigerian youth sides would not of played games locally so flights costs etc would not of been paid for.
zaha is actually worse not just for the fact that hes a diving palace prick but he was also capped.4 -
In years gone by we took their potatoes.
Now we take their rice.
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I'm of mixed heritage, and there seems to be a lot of conviction behind many opinions on this thread as to who we should be "allowed" to represent.
I am just as connected to my English heritage (birthplace), as I am to my Irish and Chinese (parentage/culture). I'm lucky enough to speak both English and Mandarin. I celebrate both calendar and lunar new years. So on, so forth.
In terms of representation, the right to self-determination (assuming you're eligible for the nations you are considering) is paramount. On that level, I respect Rice's decision.
However, he has already played full internationals - albeit friendlies - for Ireland. He progressed through the youth system. His decision to switch allegiance looks rooted in football cynicism and smacks of gaming the rules somewhat. That said, he was born and raised in London, like me, so I understand it. But he's screwed Ireland over.
When it comes to Zaha, I think England can feel hard done by, too (not necessarily because he's consistently good enough for the squad, but because of his use of the youth teams for that level of international football, then switching allegiance). However, I guess flights out to Cote d'Ivoire wouldn't exactly be practical. I dunno. There's nuance here.
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Someone said that residency shouldn't count as qualification if there's no hereditary link. This would instantly discount refugees, for instance, and players who moved at a young age because of their parents. (Sterling is a good example.)
However, when it comes to that bizarre time when - for instance - Manuel Almunia was being considered for England, because of the five-year thing, that would have been pretty strange for me, as it's blatantly a career move.
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Each case is a law unto itself, ultimately. And I can't help but feel Rice has done a bit of a dirty here, all things considered, especially after multiple caps for Ireland.5 -
I've got to disagree. If you're able to claim nationality of a country, you should e able to play for that/those nations. If you play a competitive game, that should define whether you can switch allegiances.Stu_of_Kunming said:
The criteria are stupid, that's why, once you've represented a country that should be it, you're committed, friendly game or not.Dazzler21 said:Why are people bothered by who players want to play for on the international stage?
It's their choice if they're good enough and meet criteria for more than one side.
In which case that should be a hard "get the F out".0 -
That was me.....and I stand by it 100%.PaddyP17 said:
Someone said that residency shouldn't count as qualification if there's no hereditary link. This would instantly discount refugees, for instance, and players who moved at a young age because of their parents. (Sterling is a good example.)
IMO you should not be permitted to represent a national team unless you were either born there or have some parental / grand parental link.
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Do you hold more than one nationality yourself?SuedeAdidas said:
That was me.....and I stand by it 100%.PaddyP17 said:
Someone said that residency shouldn't count as qualification if there's no hereditary link. This would instantly discount refugees, for instance, and players who moved at a young age because of their parents. (Sterling is a good example.)
IMO you should not be permitted to represent a national team unless you were either born there or have some parental / grand parental link.
If not, then your view on multiple national identities might be somewhat compromised by the fact you've never had to consider your loyalties, so to speak.
If you do have dual nationality - then I'm very surprised by your opinion!0 -
@PaddyP17
out of interest what country do you support?
only reason i say is for me i'm english and couldn't think of playing for other countries even though i have grandparents on either side being irish and scottish.
equally i dont mind ireland doing well - but could not support them over england
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I do not.PaddyP17 said:
Do you hold more than one nationality yourself?SuedeAdidas said:
That was me.....and I stand by it 100%.PaddyP17 said:
Someone said that residency shouldn't count as qualification if there's no hereditary link. This would instantly discount refugees, for instance, and players who moved at a young age because of their parents. (Sterling is a good example.)
IMO you should not be permitted to represent a national team unless you were either born there or have some parental / grand parental link.
If not, then your view on multiple national identities might be somewhat compromised by the fact you've never had to consider your loyalties, so to speak.
If you do have dual nationality - then I'm very surprised by your opinion!
You will see in my original post that I have no issue with people with dual nationality via birth and lineage - and I have no issue with such a person choosing either of those nationalities.....as long as the right to change allegiance is controlled more stringently than in the DR case.
My issue is with people that were neither born in the country or have any familial link being permitted to represent a country just because they have moved there.
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My Nan was Scottish, lived on the Isle of Bute for years, had salt on her porridge, proper sweaty. My dads mum, although I never met her, was a full on paddy. Love both grandparents dearly, want both countries to get spanked at every single sport they play.palarsehater said:@PaddyP17
out of interest what country do you support?
only reason i say is for me i'm english and couldn't think of playing for other countries even though i have grandparents on either side being irish and scottish.
equally i dont mind ireland doing well - but could not support them over england
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But "just because they have moved there" could be as a result of their parents' economic or political migration when they were a small child. Sterling moved when he was five. He probably had no agency in the decision, and then went to primary/secondary school over here, becoming culturally English, and now plays for England.SuedeAdidas said:
I do not.PaddyP17 said:
Do you hold more than one nationality yourself?SuedeAdidas said:
That was me.....and I stand by it 100%.PaddyP17 said:
Someone said that residency shouldn't count as qualification if there's no hereditary link. This would instantly discount refugees, for instance, and players who moved at a young age because of their parents. (Sterling is a good example.)
IMO you should not be permitted to represent a national team unless you were either born there or have some parental / grand parental link.
If not, then your view on multiple national identities might be somewhat compromised by the fact you've never had to consider your loyalties, so to speak.
If you do have dual nationality - then I'm very surprised by your opinion!
You will see in my original post that I have no issue with people with dual nationality via birth and lineage - and I have no issue with such a person choosing either of those nationalities.....as long as the right to change allegiance is controlled more stringently than in the DR case.
My issue is with people that were neither born in the country or have any familial link being permitted to represent a country just because they have moved there.
Am I right in saying that, because he moved here - and none of his relatives have jus soli or jus sanguinis - that he shouldn't be eligible for the English national team?1 -
You are right in terms of understanding what my opinion on the matter is - yes.
Although to be clear - my view has nothing specifically to do with England or football......
From the the 7 foot Kiwis playing rugby for Japan, to the African 10km runners representing Scandinavian countries in athletics - I don't agree with it.
I'm also not having a dig at the players that take advantage of the rules.....it is the rules that I am not happy with.3 -
I tend to fall on the side of the Irish when it's Ireland vs England. This is despite where I was born and raised - or possibly because of it. I have no particular desire to pity myself or anything, but by way of explanation - I've always been aware that I'm not fully English, and I have been reminded of that fact by English people regularly enough.palarsehater said:@PaddyP17
out of interest what country do you support?
only reason i say is for me i'm english and couldn't think of playing for other countries even though i have grandparents on either side being irish and scottish.
equally i dont mind ireland doing well - but could not support them over england
However, where there's no conflict of interest, I'll support England. (No idea what would happen if China came into the sporting arenas I follow, though - we're usually crap at everything except for the Olympics.)
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fair enough, i suppose we are oppositesPaddyP17 said:
I tend to fall on the side of the Irish when it's Ireland vs England. This is despite where I was born and raised - or possibly because of it. I have no particular desire to pity myself or anything, but by way of explanation - I've always been aware that I'm not fully English, and I have been reminded of that fact by English people regularly enough.palarsehater said:@PaddyP17
out of interest what country do you support?
only reason i say is for me i'm english and couldn't think of playing for other countries even though i have grandparents on either side being irish and scottish.
equally i dont mind ireland doing well - but could not support them over england
However, where there's no conflict of interest, I'll support England. (No idea what would happen if China came into the sporting arenas I follow, though - we're usually crap at everything except for the Olympics.)1 -
And there's nothing wrong with that!palarsehater said:
fair enough, i suppose we are oppositesPaddyP17 said:
I tend to fall on the side of the Irish when it's Ireland vs England. This is despite where I was born and raised - or possibly because of it. I have no particular desire to pity myself or anything, but by way of explanation - I've always been aware that I'm not fully English, and I have been reminded of that fact by English people regularly enough.palarsehater said:@PaddyP17
out of interest what country do you support?
only reason i say is for me i'm english and couldn't think of playing for other countries even though i have grandparents on either side being irish and scottish.
equally i dont mind ireland doing well - but could not support them over england
However, where there's no conflict of interest, I'll support England. (No idea what would happen if China came into the sporting arenas I follow, though - we're usually crap at everything except for the Olympics.)1 -
You tell 'em Joe Root...PaddyP17 said:
And there's nothing wrong with that!palarsehater said:
fair enough, i suppose we are oppositesPaddyP17 said:
I tend to fall on the side of the Irish when it's Ireland vs England. This is despite where I was born and raised - or possibly because of it. I have no particular desire to pity myself or anything, but by way of explanation - I've always been aware that I'm not fully English, and I have been reminded of that fact by English people regularly enough.palarsehater said:@PaddyP17
out of interest what country do you support?
only reason i say is for me i'm english and couldn't think of playing for other countries even though i have grandparents on either side being irish and scottish.
equally i dont mind ireland doing well - but could not support them over england
However, where there's no conflict of interest, I'll support England. (No idea what would happen if China came into the sporting arenas I follow, though - we're usually crap at everything except for the Olympics.)4 -
Giggs must be on a multi advert deal...
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I always found it genuinely amusing at school when kids would be a quarter this or a quarter that. Both my parents were English, both their parents were English and that’s as far back as I need to go. I’m English through and through. Might have an Irish surname and my mother’s maiden name was Welsh, but I’m not tripping over myself to shout about my Celtic heritage.
For others with parents/grandparents who are of diff nationalities I completely understand and it’s a legitimate and a good thing you can take pride in a shared heritage, but if there isn’t that sort of direct link I just think some people can be a bit silly with it.
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I'd really love to believe this was as hard for Declan Rice as he is making out. Indeed if I had been lucky enough, (good enough) to have had to make the same decision it would have only been tough had both countries come calling at the same time. I am as fiercely proud of my birth right, as I am of my family heritage. So for me, I guess it would come down to whoever wanted me first and then that would be it.
As it is, this seems quite straight forward to me. When he wasn't deemed good enough, (either by himself or his peers) for his country of birth, he was quite happy to wear the green shirt of his ancestors on the assumption I presume that this would be the only country option he would get.
But then to his credit, he improved, considerably as it turns out, or at least enough to put himself on the radar of the English FA who recognised that he had only played three friendlies for the Republic and therefore could still qualify for England.
The whole O'Neill / Keane saga on top of the FA's interest may well have tipped Rice over the edge but it has been reported that after McCarthy took over Rice had agreed to commit himself to Ireland as recently as December, only for the then FA Technical Director, Dan Ashworth to make a concerted effort to change his mind, which obviously worked.
I wish the young man the very best, he has clearly realised that the current Eire squad is simply not good enough to qualify for any major tournaments for the next few years and is not prepared to wait, although he could have been part of a generation of very promising young players coming through.
As it is, the absence of Declan Rice in the Ireland team will not be the sole reason that nothing much will happen for the Boys In Green in the next few years and his inclusion would also not have heralded a new dawn just yet.
Equally the addition to the England side of Declan Rice will not transform the Three Lions into the footballing stratosphere. he's a handy player and will benefit any team and I genuinely wish him well because I have the luxury of supporting both countries.
My only gripe is the utter b****cks that needs to come out with the decision to try to make it more palatable.
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Sky Sports are saying that it could take between five and six weeks for Declan Rice to be able to represent England as the neccessary paperwork has to go through with FIFA etc. (thats the length of time it took Jack Grealish to switch)
Means that its unlikely he'll be selected for the Euro Qualifiers against the Czech Republic or Montenegro next month - So will result in him either making his debut in the Nations League Finals in the summer or will have to wait until next season before playing for England0 - Sponsored links:
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It's good to hear about people's pride in dual nationality/mixed heritage.KillersBeard said:I'd really love to believe this was as hard for Declan Rice as he is making out. Indeed if I had been lucky enough, (good enough) to have had to make the same decision it would have only been tough had both countries come calling at the same time. I am as fiercely proud of my birth right, as I am of my family heritage. So for me, I guess it would come down to whoever wanted me first and then that would be it.
As it is, this seems quite straight forward to me. When he wasn't deemed good enough, (either by himself or his peers) for his country of birth, he was quite happy to wear the green shirt of his ancestors on the assumption I presume that this would be the only country option he would get.
But then to his credit, he improved, considerably as it turns out, or at least enough to put himself on the radar of the English FA who recognised that he had only played three friendlies for the Republic and therefore could still qualify for England.
The whole O'Neill / Keane saga on top of the FA's interest may well have tipped Rice over the edge but it has been reported that after McCarthy took over Rice had agreed to commit himself to Ireland as recently as December, only for the then FA Technical Director, Dan Ashworth to make a concerted effort to change his mind, which obviously worked.
I wish the young man the very best, he has clearly realised that the current Eire squad is simply not good enough to qualify for any major tournaments for the next few years and is not prepared to wait, although he could have been part of a generation of very promising young players coming through.
As it is, the absence of Declan Rice in the Ireland team will not be the sole reason that nothing much will happen for the Boys In Green in the next few years and his inclusion would also not have heralded a new dawn just yet.
Equally the addition to the England side of Declan Rice will not transform the Three Lions into the footballing stratosphere. he's a handy player and will benefit any team and I genuinely wish him well because I have the luxury of supporting both countries.
My only gripe is the utter b****cks that needs to come out with the decision to try to make it more palatable.
Do you contribute to both societies ?0 -
Yes, your point?smudge7946 said:
It's good to hear about people's pride in dual nationality/mixed heritage.KillersBeard said:I'd really love to believe this was as hard for Declan Rice as he is making out. Indeed if I had been lucky enough, (good enough) to have had to make the same decision it would have only been tough had both countries come calling at the same time. I am as fiercely proud of my birth right, as I am of my family heritage. So for me, I guess it would come down to whoever wanted me first and then that would be it.
As it is, this seems quite straight forward to me. When he wasn't deemed good enough, (either by himself or his peers) for his country of birth, he was quite happy to wear the green shirt of his ancestors on the assumption I presume that this would be the only country option he would get.
But then to his credit, he improved, considerably as it turns out, or at least enough to put himself on the radar of the English FA who recognised that he had only played three friendlies for the Republic and therefore could still qualify for England.
The whole O'Neill / Keane saga on top of the FA's interest may well have tipped Rice over the edge but it has been reported that after McCarthy took over Rice had agreed to commit himself to Ireland as recently as December, only for the then FA Technical Director, Dan Ashworth to make a concerted effort to change his mind, which obviously worked.
I wish the young man the very best, he has clearly realised that the current Eire squad is simply not good enough to qualify for any major tournaments for the next few years and is not prepared to wait, although he could have been part of a generation of very promising young players coming through.
As it is, the absence of Declan Rice in the Ireland team will not be the sole reason that nothing much will happen for the Boys In Green in the next few years and his inclusion would also not have heralded a new dawn just yet.
Equally the addition to the England side of Declan Rice will not transform the Three Lions into the footballing stratosphere. he's a handy player and will benefit any team and I genuinely wish him well because I have the luxury of supporting both countries.
My only gripe is the utter b****cks that needs to come out with the decision to try to make it more palatable.
Do you contribute to both societies ?0 -
But he’s working within the rules though. If he felt that getting junior international experience with Ireland might enhance his chances of playing at a senior level for England then good for him. He’s not at fault here, it’s the rules that have been put in place.
My opinion is that once a player makes his international decision, whatever level it is at, then that should be that. No flip flopping. However, those aren’t the rules so I don’t blame him.2 -
Born in England, to an English mother, Irish father, lived here all his life, has Irish heritage like a lot of us do, hardly a controversial choice IMO, far more ROI pllayers over the years have more tenuous rights to play for ROI in the past, Christ, under Jack Charlton you only had to drink a pint of the black stuff to qualify.
Rice is not responsible for the rules, making choices like many did for ROI when Charlton was in charge as they knew they had no chance of an England call up, they wanted to play international football, some had never stepped foot in ROI before.0 -
He should have stayed with Ireland. Feels sneaky.0
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It’s not like he kissed the Irish badge when he played for them.
Oh, hang on.1 -
Irish times take on it last year
https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/abroad/who-can-blame-declan-rice-if-he-feels-more-english-than-irish-1.3612991
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The more the likes of Ireland and Wales try to get dual nationality youngsters in earlier and earlier, the more some may switch back while they can.1
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Might also want to consider that the initial decision of which country to play for is either the parents decision or a decision made by a child. Once they reach maturity a change in nation might be made purely from a perspective of informed identify of who they are.0
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His father isn't Irish, it's his father's parents who were Irish. If they abolished the ridiculous grandparent rule, none of this argument would have happenedDA9 said:Born in England, to an English mother, Irish father, lived here all his life, has Irish heritage like a lot of us do, hardly a controversial choice IMO, far more ROI pllayers over the years have more tenuous rights to play for ROI in the past, Christ, under Jack Charlton you only had to drink a pint of the black stuff to qualify.
Rice is not responsible for the rules, making choices like many did for ROI when Charlton was in charge as they knew they had no chance of an England call up, they wanted to play international football, some had never stepped foot in ROI before.
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