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Scouts fined over Autism issue
JoshrewCAFC
Posts: 916
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-43519296
Was interested in getting a general public opinion on this. Having been a member of the Boys Brigade (very similar to scouts for those who don't know), I've seen how hard it has become for those that run it over the years. The people that run these things are volunteers, and I've seen in many cases parents bring their autistic kids as a form of very cheap child care. These volunteer leaders are not trained to deal with children with these problems, nor should they have to be. During camp one year a severely autistic teenager came with his dad and ran off several times, I can't imagine how they would have coped with it had his dad not been there with him.
These organisations can only run with volunteers, many of whom have full-time jobs and don't have the time (or expendable cash) to be able to train to look after such children. Personally I think this fine on the Scouts has set a very dangerous precident. The real issue here is that these parents can only afford this as a substitute for the childcare their children actually need, the government hasn't made it affordable enough. Shame that these parents in the above link felt it fit to get money out of an organisation like the Scouts rather than tackling the actaul childcare problem.
Thoughts?
Was interested in getting a general public opinion on this. Having been a member of the Boys Brigade (very similar to scouts for those who don't know), I've seen how hard it has become for those that run it over the years. The people that run these things are volunteers, and I've seen in many cases parents bring their autistic kids as a form of very cheap child care. These volunteer leaders are not trained to deal with children with these problems, nor should they have to be. During camp one year a severely autistic teenager came with his dad and ran off several times, I can't imagine how they would have coped with it had his dad not been there with him.
These organisations can only run with volunteers, many of whom have full-time jobs and don't have the time (or expendable cash) to be able to train to look after such children. Personally I think this fine on the Scouts has set a very dangerous precident. The real issue here is that these parents can only afford this as a substitute for the childcare their children actually need, the government hasn't made it affordable enough. Shame that these parents in the above link felt it fit to get money out of an organisation like the Scouts rather than tackling the actaul childcare problem.
Thoughts?
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Comments
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Any organisation such as scouts, brownies etc should have policies and procedures in how to ensure those with disabilities of any kind are able to be inclusive in their organisation, not sure suing them is the right answer but certainly forcing them to get in line with the modern world is not a bad thing
It matters not if you are a volunteer, if I was one of those volunteers I’d expect the correct level of training and support to deal with any isssue around safeguarding vulnerable people, sounds like to me the issue rightly so was with the scouts4 -
I know there are quite few parents of autistic children on here, from reading that humbling thread.
Would be interested to hear their comments, but surely someone as big as the scouts have a plan in place to cater for the needs of autistic children?
Although as a voluntary organisation that struggles for staffing numbers I can also see why this is an issue for them too.
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A cynic might suggest the parents, instead of working with the Scouts, saw an opportunity to make some money.6
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A £45k fine is really going to help the Scouts.
Most volunteers do so because their son/daughter will join a local pack. If I was volunteering and was told I'd have to have specific training on how to manage the H&S of children with mental health issues, after which I could be held responsible for their actions, I'm pretty sure I would stop volunteering.
I suggest a large number of volunteers are considering this course of action as a result of this case.
If my child had mental health issues and I wanted him/her to be involved in a local volunteer based group, I'd make sure I fully supported them by becoming a volunteer myself to ensure if there were any H&S issues with my child they could be managed correctly and effectively.
But then neither my missus or I are lawyers who are experienced in litigation.16 -
Good point. But they certainly didn't fail in safeguarding in my opinion. In fact, they actually made their decision based on the fact that they couldn't handle the child's issues. Thus, they were actually keeping themselves, the other children and most importantly the autistic child safe by not allowing him to continue on certain activities. Which of course must have been upsetting for the child and his family, but they made the correct decision for his safety. Like you said at most its a policy issue within the Scouts, nothing worthy of being fined.nth london addick said:Any organisation such as scouts, brownies etc should have policies and procedures in how to ensure those with disabilities of any kind are able to be inclusive in their organisation, not sure suing them is the right answer but certainly forcing them to get in line with the modern world is not a bad thing
It matters not if you are a volunteer, if I was one of those volunteers I’d expect the correct level of training and support to deal with any isssue around safeguarding vulnerable people, sounds like to me the issue rightly so was with the scouts3 -
As it was previously mentioned the scout organisation is run on a weekly basis by volunteers. I am a scout group helper/volunteer and have been for a number of years and from my experience every group could do with more volunteers/helpers. In the situation whereby a child's inclusion is a concern by a parent, they (the parent) could always sign up and volunteer to be a part of that group when activities are planned that more guidance and support is needed by the child.
We, as a group, have never had a problem with inclusion with the children we have in our group. We have a great support from leaders and every leader makes sure that each and every child takes part in whatever way possible.
We have however, had some right little shits who have had to be excluded because of their behaviour (not condition related).2 -
Noticed that part of the lawsuit was for breach of privacy, claiming a briefing to other parents would identify them but they're happy to give a BBC interview and have their and the poor kids picture on a national website.12
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Went to sign my lad up for Beavers, 4 year waiting list !
There are not enough groups locally, things like this will not encourage more. I have never met a poor lawyer so two lawyer parents suggest the family is not short a few quid. If they had won and then made a point of not accepting the cash as it would hurt a volunteer movement but they had made a group think about their policies, procedures and training etc then I would understand it.
That said, it seems a very large fine which makes me wonder why... there must have been a pretty serious breach for that kind of fine.0 -
Understandable.Athletico Charlton said:Went to sign my lad up for Beavers, 4 year waiting list !
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We aren't talking about severe autism here so feel like the one-to-one supervision was an overreaction.
All it took was the scout leaders to have a little bit of training and there would've been no issue other than the odd incident here and there like when he couldn't find his shoes (which would distress most children).1 - Sponsored links:
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Overreaction. - Sued
Underreaction - Sued
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Firstly it was a settlement paid to the parents NOT a fine. The family have financially gained through this at the expense of a Voluntary Scout Movement designed for the benefit of young people.
It is purely run by Volunteers who give up enormous amounts of time and personal expense and sacrifice. I myself have spent most of my life connected to the Movement. This includes being personally responsible the safety and welfare of ALL members. This has become increasingly difficult over the years.
We always tried to be all inclusive but this is not always practical/possible. For example we had one partially disabled member who we could cope with on a meeting night but couldn't have on a camp. We had to ask the parent to come and take some responsibility. On this occassion we was glad to assist.
Had I ever thought I could not deal with a child and not got support I would have had no choice to say they couldn't come. If that meant I was likely to have been sued I would have had NO alternative but to call off the whole event.
This is a very dangerous precedent.16 -
Friend on mine sends her some to a Cub Scout brigade specially set up for those on the autism/Asperger's spectrum. According to her, it's very lively!0
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No chance of the parents doing something more productive and valuable like becoming a volunteer at the group themselves? Nope easier to sue and expect the responsibility to be on others.
Professional/business companies being held to account is one thing, groups reliant on volunteers is another.7 -
As others have said the movement relies on volunteers, who more than likely have the day job to do before they help other people’s children have an enjoyable couple of hours or at camps days and weeks. These activities require a fair amount of time to prepare.
My son went through the Beavers,cubs, Scouts’s and Adventure Scouts’s and as a parent I helped out with craft projects and camps when asked. My wife was asked to help, liked it and became leader of Cubs and Brownies for many years. I always thought we had done our bit and certainly would not have bothered if we thought we would be held responsible to the enth degree.
If a child had special needs, (and it did happen a lot), the one of the child’s parents would have to stay and help. No big deal, there was never a problem.10 -
Both parents are lawyers, say no more.2
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This seems like it could have been dealt with long before it escalated this far. The parents seem to suggest their son could be easily managed. The scouts possibly had more concern that they'd be liable if something went wrong. I wonder at what this point it was settled, and how the figure was arrived at.0
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Price of a new BMW?1
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Agreed, should have been dealt with earlier with better communication. With a son in Cubs and a daughter in Beavers, I have just started volunteering and being urged to become a sectional assistant.McBobbin said:This seems like it could have been dealt with long before it escalated this far. The parents seem to suggest their son could be easily managed. The scouts possibly had more concern that they'd be liable if something went wrong. I wonder at what this point it was settled, and how the figure was arrived at.
I do what I can with what little time I have (I maybe should be sorting out the house/garden or not missing two home games instead of helping out on camps). As an ex-Cub & Scout myself, I think it’s great for children but any extra training I just couldn’t commit to.4 -
I find the whole idea of recourse to litigation by the parents as distasteful!
Having worked in schools all my life, helped at scout camps (cooked for 50 regularly as well as helping with the activities) and taken school students away on activity holidays every year, I know how exhausting all of this can be! Very, very rewarding however and loved it all. But you always have to put the safety of the majority first (companies like PGL or other childrens' holiday companies do) and if one child dominates your time, others are not being looked after fully or it takes one adult away from the group. Surely these parents could appreciate that and offer to help in anyway?
Therefore, why should they take vital resources from the scout association, and how will it resolve their issue? Will they use the money to pay for a one-to-one helper? Just can't see how the litigation and money resolves the issue!
Perhaps they could donate it for improved training?5 - Sponsored links:
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Despair at stories like this.
All of you who’ve commented on here that you give up your time volunteering to organisations such as scouts, Boys Brigade, Brownies etc thanks a lot for your efforts it’s really appreciated8 -
I just think that if the parents can afford to live in Harpenden (one of the most expensive commuter towns around London, are both lawyers and have been awarded c.£40k, they should donate the entire amount to a charity, not part of it.4
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They could donate it to the scouts .......................3
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Absolutely! Having participated in expensive activity holidays with school children (very worthwhile but £100s in cost, fulltime staff etc) and scout camps for very little cost and ALL volunteers making it possible, they could donate it to a worthwhile charity like ...... the scout movement!Daggs said:They could donate it to the scouts .......................
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This is the reason why people are reluctant to volunteer. More legislation has meant more paperwork, more checks etc etc which is absolutely fit and proper. Some situations are, however, beyond the control of the volunteer and can make that individual vulnerable to things that are beyond his or her control.
I know of one such situation - boy plays at Cricket club and one day match is abandoned so manager of the team texts those parents not present to let them know. Dad comes to pick child up. Mum turns up 10 minutes later and asks where little Johnny is. Manager is then berated because Dad has limited access to the child and this wasn't one of his days. Mum did not make the Club aware of this when signing little Johnny up (and provided Dad's contact details) in the "any other information" section. So the club now has a Welfare Question to cover this in addition to the previous Medical questionnaire plus food allergy question.
This could also have been avoided had Mum complied with the Club's rules that state that an adult should be present in case of an emergency - many, as in this case, don't bother and just leave the kid because the childcare is so cheap.
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I have had experience of a similar issue when I was coaching football here for Under-9s.
There was a kid who had bi-polar and his parents had been encouraged to keep him active and get him into sports so they brought him to the football club but they warned me he had anger issues.
We’d be training - and with the ten kids in the squad it was a right handful organising multiple drills to keep them occupied - and suddenly you’d hear a kid cry out and you’d look over and they would be on the deck.
Every time it happened he’d be in the general vicinity but they were really good kids, they knew he had problems and didn’t want to get him into more trouble so they didn’t grass him up.
However, we were playing an intra-club game one Friday night and this troubled kid is on halfway and loses a tackle and right there, in front of probably 60 or so people, he’s lamped the defender with a massive right hander.
All hell broke loose with the parents and his parents ended up taking him straight home and he never came back.
His Mum phoned me really upset and said they were taking him out of the club as it wasn’t working out and I was gutted for her as she was a lovely lady and was gong through hell, but actually also relieved because the kid needed attention and help that I - a volunteer Dad - just couldn’t provide.
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