I think it's way too early to be thinking about ditching Jones tbh. Just for once I'd like to see what happens when we let a manager try to work through a problem, rather than just sacking them and hoping the next person in does better.
Just for comparison it's worth looking back at what Wycombe fans thought of Matt Bloomfield at the start of this year:
"I'm gobsmacked so many want to stick with him still. His record is awful, I want to say worst of anyone since we've been a league club, but I'm not sure, but can't be far off."
"I'm not vociferously Bloomfield Out but if there was a magic button to get rid of home without any financial drama, then I'd press it. It's not even the results for me, it's the tedious nature of the football... Previous managers have gone for lesser losing runs and entertainment reasons."
Their board stuck with him and now they're top of the table and the top goal-scorers in the division. He's on a 5-game winning streak and being linked with jobs in the Championship.
Fans always talk about style of football and how much it matters when their team isn't winning but in reality no-one actually cares if you're winning games.
If we were winning under Jones everyone would be loving the "passion, commitment and work rate" and forgetting the rest.
It's no coincidence that the last time people say they enjoyed watching Charlton was in 2019 under Bowyer and before that 2012 under Powell.
Neither of them were or are tactical geniuses - ask fans of other clubs they managed about their tactics and they'll tell you it was poor, because they didn't win.
Ultimately, win games and every football fan can trick themselves into believing the football is good.
I recall a fair few fans on here complaining about the style of play when we won our first three games of the season, AFKA touched on it in a post recently as well and got dozens of likes for it.
You must be misremembering… the entire forum was buzzing after our third win of the season - citing exactly the things I called out. Desire, commitment, hard work…
Try reading the match thread rather than the post match thread and you'll find that there were plenty of dissenting voices. People revise their opinions post-match to take account of the result, but that does not mean that they are satisfied whilst watching.
Retrospectively, most people aren't too bothered if we win. In the moment, they absolutely are.
Is this not proving my point a bit? People were finding reason to moan about the performance because we weren’t winning. Bet if you check the post match thread here you wouldn’t find many negative comments.
“Deserved win” “superb second half” “I like the application and desire”
Similarly, I read that I chose a “bad game” to reference against Bolton because it was our “best of the season”.
Was it? How did we play any differently? Nathan Jones didn’t set us up to be all conquering ball playing maestros for one match and then abandon it. The tactics would’ve been the same, or very similar, as usual. We all enjoyed it because it produced a result.
Repeat a question from before.
What point are you making here Callum? As I’m not clear. It feels like you are defending Jones, his style, and his outcomes merely for the sake of being contrary.
Do you believe in his tactics/ philosophy and do you think he will succeed?
I’m saying the style of play argument would disappear as soon as we win a few games and therefore it’s a weak argument against Jones compared to just being honest and saying you don’t like that we’re not winning.
People see negatives when we don’t get results and they see the positives when we do get results. Ben Garner set up with the opposite style to NJ (surely this is the type of manager we want if we want attacking football) and still got panned by fans - because we stopped winning games.
There is no right or wrong way to play football and only results tend to matter.
And yes, I do believe that the way Jones intends to have our team play can get results and can be successful. It’s not been so successful lately (over a period of less than two months) but I’m willing to give him more time.
1. I absolutely resent the accusation that I'm not being honest. I'm telling things how they are for me. I think they are the same for many for others too. I may be wrong about what others think, but there's no way on earth I'm not being honest; what I tell you about how I feel about this is exactly how it is. 2. You're right about us losing, I don't like it when we're not winning. 3. You're completely wrong about style of play. I hate this turgid boring football and I hate it regardless of whether we were winning or losing. Football is the beautiful game, I want to see its beauty. I do not wan't to spend my time being bored for ninety minutes and then jump for joy because we sneak a winner at the end of it. If it's all about results, then there's no point in watching because I can read the result afterwards and find out how many points we got. I go to football to be entertained. This side bores the crap out of me.
Are you telling me that if we were to win all 30 of our remaining games playing like we did at Burton or Shrewsbury and finish the season on 112 points, you’d still have complaints about the style of football?
If the answer is yes then fair enough, my argument / theory doesn’t apply to you.
But for 99.9% of fans, all their complaints about a style of play would disappear.
Callum this is what I’m saying mate. take a step back and think about what you’re saying/ suggesting and what you’re actually trying to achieve here !
You’re literally just contradicting people for the sake of it, to the extent you’re now coming up with an utterly farcical fantasy to try and prove something
Yet when YOU suggested a bet and I proposed one simply that we wouldn’t succeed with the modest objective of just making the play offs, you didn’t even believe in that…
Only conclusion is therefore that you know that we are utter shite and going nowhere but you are just being contrary for the sake of it 🤷🏼♂️
Genuinely not trying to be a wind up - originally I only wanted to make a point about style of play vs results as an argument for sacking a manager. As I see it, it’s part of the psychology of being a football fan to convince yourself that the two are more closely linked than they actually are but I guess I offended people.
The football isn’t pretty but it’s really not that bad for the level we’re at either. That’s just the reality of our situation.
We’ve recently convinced ourselves it must be extra bad because we didn’t win any games for a few weeks. But performance wise, it wasn’t much, if any, worse than when we won three in a row to start the season and almost everyone thought we were on to something good.
Paragraph two, ffs, what Powell produced in our promotion season is on another level to the s*** being served up this season. Have a day off from your rose tinted goggles.
I think it's way too early to be thinking about ditching Jones tbh. Just for once I'd like to see what happens when we let a manager try to work through a problem, rather than just sacking them and hoping the next person in does better.
Just for comparison it's worth looking back at what Wycombe fans thought of Matt Bloomfield at the start of this year:
"I'm gobsmacked so many want to stick with him still. His record is awful, I want to say worst of anyone since we've been a league club, but I'm not sure, but can't be far off."
"I'm not vociferously Bloomfield Out but if there was a magic button to get rid of home without any financial drama, then I'd press it. It's not even the results for me, it's the tedious nature of the football... Previous managers have gone for lesser losing runs and entertainment reasons."
Their board stuck with him and now they're top of the table and the top goal-scorers in the division. He's on a 5-game winning streak and being linked with jobs in the Championship.
Fans always talk about style of football and how much it matters when their team isn't winning but in reality no-one actually cares if you're winning games.
If we were winning under Jones everyone would be loving the "passion, commitment and work rate" and forgetting the rest.
It's no coincidence that the last time people say they enjoyed watching Charlton was in 2019 under Bowyer and before that 2012 under Powell.
Neither of them were or are tactical geniuses - ask fans of other clubs they managed about their tactics and they'll tell you it was poor, because they didn't win.
Ultimately, win games and every football fan can trick themselves into believing the football is good.
I recall a fair few fans on here complaining about the style of play when we won our first three games of the season, AFKA touched on it in a post recently as well and got dozens of likes for it.
You must be misremembering… the entire forum was buzzing after our third win of the season - citing exactly the things I called out. Desire, commitment, hard work…
Try reading the match thread rather than the post match thread and you'll find that there were plenty of dissenting voices. People revise their opinions post-match to take account of the result, but that does not mean that they are satisfied whilst watching.
Retrospectively, most people aren't too bothered if we win. In the moment, they absolutely are.
Is this not proving my point a bit? People were finding reason to moan about the performance because we weren’t winning. Bet if you check the post match thread here you wouldn’t find many negative comments.
“Deserved win” “superb second half” “I like the application and desire”
Similarly, I read that I chose a “bad game” to reference against Bolton because it was our “best of the season”.
Was it? How did we play any differently? Nathan Jones didn’t set us up to be all conquering ball playing maestros for one match and then abandon it. The tactics would’ve been the same, or very similar, as usual. We all enjoyed it because it produced a result.
Repeat a question from before.
What point are you making here Callum? As I’m not clear. It feels like you are defending Jones, his style, and his outcomes merely for the sake of being contrary.
Do you believe in his tactics/ philosophy and do you think he will succeed?
I’m saying the style of play argument would disappear as soon as we win a few games and therefore it’s a weak argument against Jones compared to just being honest and saying you don’t like that we’re not winning.
People see negatives when we don’t get results and they see the positives when we do get results. Ben Garner set up with the opposite style to NJ (surely this is the type of manager we want if we want attacking football) and still got panned by fans - because we stopped winning games.
There is no right or wrong way to play football and only results tend to matter.
And yes, I do believe that the way Jones intends to have our team play can get results and can be successful. It’s not been so successful lately (over a period of less than two months) but I’m willing to give him more time.
1. I absolutely resent the accusation that I'm not being honest. I'm telling things how they are for me. I think they are the same for many for others too. I may be wrong about what others think, but there's no way on earth I'm not being honest; what I tell you about how I feel about this is exactly how it is. 2. You're right about us losing, I don't like it when we're not winning. 3. You're completely wrong about style of play. I hate this turgid boring football and I hate it regardless of whether we were winning or losing. Football is the beautiful game, I want to see its beauty. I do not wan't to spend my time being bored for ninety minutes and then jump for joy because we sneak a winner at the end of it. If it's all about results, then there's no point in watching because I can read the result afterwards and find out how many points we got. I go to football to be entertained. This side bores the crap out of me.
Are you telling me that if we were to win all 30 of our remaining games playing like we did at Burton or Shrewsbury and finish the season on 112 points, you’d still have complaints about the style of football?
If the answer is yes then fair enough, my argument / theory doesn’t apply to you.
But for 99.9% of fans, all their complaints about a style of play would disappear.
If we finished the season on 112 points I would be over the moon. But if we did that under the highly imaginative scenario that you've described, I'd have still been bored for 2700 minutes. So yes, I would have complaints about the style of the football, in just the same way that people complained their way through Tuesday night's match thread, but were glad to pick up three points at the end of the match.
Bottom line is though, it ain't ever gonna happen.
I’ll take a yes but x2
Take it however you like. The reality is it was an utterly nutterly scenario. But you knew that anyway.
I think it's way too early to be thinking about ditching Jones tbh. Just for once I'd like to see what happens when we let a manager try to work through a problem, rather than just sacking them and hoping the next person in does better.
Just for comparison it's worth looking back at what Wycombe fans thought of Matt Bloomfield at the start of this year:
"I'm gobsmacked so many want to stick with him still. His record is awful, I want to say worst of anyone since we've been a league club, but I'm not sure, but can't be far off."
"I'm not vociferously Bloomfield Out but if there was a magic button to get rid of home without any financial drama, then I'd press it. It's not even the results for me, it's the tedious nature of the football... Previous managers have gone for lesser losing runs and entertainment reasons."
Their board stuck with him and now they're top of the table and the top goal-scorers in the division. He's on a 5-game winning streak and being linked with jobs in the Championship.
Fans always talk about style of football and how much it matters when their team isn't winning but in reality no-one actually cares if you're winning games.
If we were winning under Jones everyone would be loving the "passion, commitment and work rate" and forgetting the rest.
It's no coincidence that the last time people say they enjoyed watching Charlton was in 2019 under Bowyer and before that 2012 under Powell.
Neither of them were or are tactical geniuses - ask fans of other clubs they managed about their tactics and they'll tell you it was poor, because they didn't win.
Ultimately, win games and every football fan can trick themselves into believing the football is good.
I recall a fair few fans on here complaining about the style of play when we won our first three games of the season, AFKA touched on it in a post recently as well and got dozens of likes for it.
You must be misremembering… the entire forum was buzzing after our third win of the season - citing exactly the things I called out. Desire, commitment, hard work…
Try reading the match thread rather than the post match thread and you'll find that there were plenty of dissenting voices. People revise their opinions post-match to take account of the result, but that does not mean that they are satisfied whilst watching.
Retrospectively, most people aren't too bothered if we win. In the moment, they absolutely are.
Is this not proving my point a bit? People were finding reason to moan about the performance because we weren’t winning. Bet if you check the post match thread here you wouldn’t find many negative comments.
“Deserved win” “superb second half” “I like the application and desire”
Similarly, I read that I chose a “bad game” to reference against Bolton because it was our “best of the season”.
Was it? How did we play any differently? Nathan Jones didn’t set us up to be all conquering ball playing maestros for one match and then abandon it. The tactics would’ve been the same, or very similar, as usual. We all enjoyed it because it produced a result.
Repeat a question from before.
What point are you making here Callum? As I’m not clear. It feels like you are defending Jones, his style, and his outcomes merely for the sake of being contrary.
Do you believe in his tactics/ philosophy and do you think he will succeed?
I’m saying the style of play argument would disappear as soon as we win a few games and therefore it’s a weak argument against Jones compared to just being honest and saying you don’t like that we’re not winning.
People see negatives when we don’t get results and they see the positives when we do get results. Ben Garner set up with the opposite style to NJ (surely this is the type of manager we want if we want attacking football) and still got panned by fans - because we stopped winning games.
There is no right or wrong way to play football and only results tend to matter.
And yes, I do believe that the way Jones intends to have our team play can get results and can be successful. It’s not been so successful lately (over a period of less than two months) but I’m willing to give him more time.
1. I absolutely resent the accusation that I'm not being honest. I'm telling things how they are for me. I think they are the same for many for others too. I may be wrong about what others think, but there's no way on earth I'm not being honest; what I tell you about how I feel about this is exactly how it is. 2. You're right about us losing, I don't like it when we're not winning. 3. You're completely wrong about style of play. I hate this turgid boring football and I hate it regardless of whether we were winning or losing. Football is the beautiful game, I want to see its beauty. I do not wan't to spend my time being bored for ninety minutes and then jump for joy because we sneak a winner at the end of it. If it's all about results, then there's no point in watching because I can read the result afterwards and find out how many points we got. I go to football to be entertained. This side bores the crap out of me.
Are you telling me that if we were to win all 30 of our remaining games playing like we did at Burton or Shrewsbury and finish the season on 112 points, you’d still have complaints about the style of football?
If the answer is yes then fair enough, my argument / theory doesn’t apply to you.
But for 99.9% of fans, all their complaints about a style of play would disappear.
Callum this is what I’m saying mate. take a step back and think about what you’re saying/ suggesting and what you’re actually trying to achieve here !
You’re literally just contradicting people for the sake of it, to the extent you’re now coming up with an utterly farcical fantasy to try and prove something
Yet when YOU suggested a bet and I proposed one simply that we wouldn’t succeed with the modest objective of just making the play offs, you didn’t even believe in that…
Only conclusion is therefore that you know that we are utter shite and going nowhere but you are just being contrary for the sake of it 🤷🏼♂️
Genuinely not trying to be a wind up - originally I only wanted to make a point about style of play vs results as an argument for sacking a manager. As I see it, it’s part of the psychology of being a football fan to convince yourself that the two are more closely linked than they actually are but I guess I offended people.
The football isn’t pretty but it’s really not that bad for the level we’re at either. That’s just the reality of our situation.
We’ve recently convinced ourselves it must be extra bad because we didn’t win any games for a few weeks. But performance wise, it wasn’t much, if any, worse than when we won three in a row to start the season and almost everyone thought we were on to something good.
Except that's pretty factually NOT correct. When we started the season we used a high press and the players went out with a purpose. We weren't scoring many but the defence was solid.
In recent games the energy has notably dropped outside of a few exceptions. We're still not scoring many but now we are conceding many more.
The TACTICS have not changed. The style has not changed. The performances HAVE changed... for the worse.
We had the rub of the green to get those results and there were alarm bells going. Then Bolton brainwashed me in to thinking I was wrong cos it was a decent performance but we’ve been complete and utter turgid guff for most of the time since then , which is what will happen when you’ve a lack of attacking talent and your set up is let’s hang on and nick something, over a longer period of time you reap what you sow .
The style of play argument against Jones for me is an odd one as we all know that if we were winning games most wouldnt complain if the football wasnt particularly attractive, after all I remember the football we played under Curbs with Bartlett (in the prem, pre Bent) up top wasnt too pretty either but most didnt care because of what we were achieving.
All that said is the results arent going our way and thats going to put extra emphasis on our style of play, winning ugly is acceptable but losing ugly isnt. For the style of play to be a defence for NJ we do actually have to win games. The next month is vital for him we need to be around play-offs come Jan to get the calibre of players we need in and get the board to part with cash. If we are going to be mid-table with very little prospect of play-offs we may as well let Jones see out the season with what he has (as long as we arent facing relegation) then decide in the summer whether we back jones with more resources or those resources should go to a new manager.
Also one thing i do see here i Jones getting stick for his "failure" at Southampton, in his defence i think Ancelotti, Ferguson, Clough et al would have struggled with that team. they were truly one of the worst in Prem history.
Well we did win Tuesday, but it hasn't stopped the style of play argument. Why is it odd? I would agree if we were consistently winning people would be more accepting of the style but I doubt it would be stop the criticism. I don't accept your tenuous comparison with Curbs "Bartlett" era. There is no comparison between this perennial third division shit and Curbs making us competitive in the Premier League with comparatively inferior players to other PL sides
Because it was one win against a team with 8 points who are bottom of the league.
I didnt compare, thats a strawman argument. So it's not tenuous and your point at the end is regarding curbishley is literally the point im making.
You literally made a comparison. It's there in black and white ffs. No straw involved. And yes, it was one win, but that doesn't invalidate my point that consistent wins would not stop the criticism dead. Might get a lot less, but not end completely I'll resist the urge to reciprocate your spurious LOL
I dont think you understand what comparison is ? I mentioned that when we played poor football under Curbishley people didn't mind as long as we got results, Jones isn't getting results so its not a comparison ?
Miriam-Webster dictionary definition of comparison - "the representing of one thing or person as similar to or like another"
I'm literally saying they are nothing like each other ? Now repeat that back to me so i know you understood it.
Spurious ? Mate was the LOL fake ? please don't use words you don't understand. Just stick to your comfort zone and only use words you see in The Sun or back of cereal boxes.
Ouch, I don't want to get on the wrong side of you
I'm just like everyone else here just much more intelligent, richer, privately educated and much much more humble.
I think it's way too early to be thinking about ditching Jones tbh. Just for once I'd like to see what happens when we let a manager try to work through a problem, rather than just sacking them and hoping the next person in does better.
Just for comparison it's worth looking back at what Wycombe fans thought of Matt Bloomfield at the start of this year:
"I'm gobsmacked so many want to stick with him still. His record is awful, I want to say worst of anyone since we've been a league club, but I'm not sure, but can't be far off."
"I'm not vociferously Bloomfield Out but if there was a magic button to get rid of home without any financial drama, then I'd press it. It's not even the results for me, it's the tedious nature of the football... Previous managers have gone for lesser losing runs and entertainment reasons."
Their board stuck with him and now they're top of the table and the top goal-scorers in the division. He's on a 5-game winning streak and being linked with jobs in the Championship.
Fans always talk about style of football and how much it matters when their team isn't winning but in reality no-one actually cares if you're winning games.
If we were winning under Jones everyone would be loving the "passion, commitment and work rate" and forgetting the rest.
It's no coincidence that the last time people say they enjoyed watching Charlton was in 2019 under Bowyer and before that 2012 under Powell.
Neither of them were or are tactical geniuses - ask fans of other clubs they managed about their tactics and they'll tell you it was poor, because they didn't win.
Ultimately, win games and every football fan can trick themselves into believing the football is good.
I recall a fair few fans on here complaining about the style of play when we won our first three games of the season, AFKA touched on it in a post recently as well and got dozens of likes for it.
You must be misremembering… the entire forum was buzzing after our third win of the season - citing exactly the things I called out. Desire, commitment, hard work…
Try reading the match thread rather than the post match thread and you'll find that there were plenty of dissenting voices. People revise their opinions post-match to take account of the result, but that does not mean that they are satisfied whilst watching.
Retrospectively, most people aren't too bothered if we win. In the moment, they absolutely are.
Is this not proving my point a bit? People were finding reason to moan about the performance because we weren’t winning. Bet if you check the post match thread here you wouldn’t find many negative comments.
“Deserved win” “superb second half” “I like the application and desire”
Similarly, I read that I chose a “bad game” to reference against Bolton because it was our “best of the season”.
Was it? How did we play any differently? Nathan Jones didn’t set us up to be all conquering ball playing maestros for one match and then abandon it. The tactics would’ve been the same, or very similar, as usual. We all enjoyed it because it produced a result.
Repeat a question from before.
What point are you making here Callum? As I’m not clear. It feels like you are defending Jones, his style, and his outcomes merely for the sake of being contrary.
Do you believe in his tactics/ philosophy and do you think he will succeed?
I’m saying the style of play argument would disappear as soon as we win a few games and therefore it’s a weak argument against Jones compared to just being honest and saying you don’t like that we’re not winning.
People see negatives when we don’t get results and they see the positives when we do get results. Ben Garner set up with the opposite style to NJ (surely this is the type of manager we want if we want attacking football) and still got panned by fans - because we stopped winning games.
There is no right or wrong way to play football and only results tend to matter.
And yes, I do believe that the way Jones intends to have our team play can get results and can be successful. It’s not been so successful lately (over a period of less than two months) but I’m willing to give him more time.
1. I absolutely resent the accusation that I'm not being honest. I'm telling things how they are for me. I think they are the same for many for others too. I may be wrong about what others think, but there's no way on earth I'm not being honest; what I tell you about how I feel about this is exactly how it is. 2. You're right about us losing, I don't like it when we're not winning. 3. You're completely wrong about style of play. I hate this turgid boring football and I hate it regardless of whether we were winning or losing. Football is the beautiful game, I want to see its beauty. I do not wan't to spend my time being bored for ninety minutes and then jump for joy because we sneak a winner at the end of it. If it's all about results, then there's no point in watching because I can read the result afterwards and find out how many points we got. I go to football to be entertained. This side bores the crap out of me.
Are you telling me that if we were to win all 30 of our remaining games playing like we did at Burton or Shrewsbury and finish the season on 112 points, you’d still have complaints about the style of football?
If the answer is yes then fair enough, my argument / theory doesn’t apply to you.
But for 99.9% of fans, all their complaints about a style of play would disappear.
Callum this is what I’m saying mate. take a step back and think about what you’re saying/ suggesting and what you’re actually trying to achieve here !
You’re literally just contradicting people for the sake of it, to the extent you’re now coming up with an utterly farcical fantasy to try and prove something
Yet when YOU suggested a bet and I proposed one simply that we wouldn’t succeed with the modest objective of just making the play offs, you didn’t even believe in that…
Only conclusion is therefore that you know that we are utter shite and going nowhere but you are just being contrary for the sake of it 🤷🏼♂️
Genuinely not trying to be a wind up - originally I only wanted to make a point about style of play vs results as an argument for sacking a manager. As I see it, it’s part of the psychology of being a football fan to convince yourself that the two are more closely linked than they actually are but I guess I offended people.
The football isn’t pretty but it’s really not that bad for the level we’re at either. That’s just the reality of our situation.
We’ve recently convinced ourselves it must be extra bad because we didn’t win any games for a few weeks. But performance wise, it wasn’t much, if any, worse than when we won three in a row to start the season and almost everyone thought we were on to something good.
I think it's way too early to be thinking about ditching Jones tbh. Just for once I'd like to see what happens when we let a manager try to work through a problem, rather than just sacking them and hoping the next person in does better.
Just for comparison it's worth looking back at what Wycombe fans thought of Matt Bloomfield at the start of this year:
"I'm gobsmacked so many want to stick with him still. His record is awful, I want to say worst of anyone since we've been a league club, but I'm not sure, but can't be far off."
"I'm not vociferously Bloomfield Out but if there was a magic button to get rid of home without any financial drama, then I'd press it. It's not even the results for me, it's the tedious nature of the football... Previous managers have gone for lesser losing runs and entertainment reasons."
Their board stuck with him and now they're top of the table and the top goal-scorers in the division. He's on a 5-game winning streak and being linked with jobs in the Championship.
Fans always talk about style of football and how much it matters when their team isn't winning but in reality no-one actually cares if you're winning games.
If we were winning under Jones everyone would be loving the "passion, commitment and work rate" and forgetting the rest.
It's no coincidence that the last time people say they enjoyed watching Charlton was in 2019 under Bowyer and before that 2012 under Powell.
Neither of them were or are tactical geniuses - ask fans of other clubs they managed about their tactics and they'll tell you it was poor, because they didn't win.
Ultimately, win games and every football fan can trick themselves into believing the football is good.
I recall a fair few fans on here complaining about the style of play when we won our first three games of the season, AFKA touched on it in a post recently as well and got dozens of likes for it.
You must be misremembering… the entire forum was buzzing after our third win of the season - citing exactly the things I called out. Desire, commitment, hard work…
Try reading the match thread rather than the post match thread and you'll find that there were plenty of dissenting voices. People revise their opinions post-match to take account of the result, but that does not mean that they are satisfied whilst watching.
Retrospectively, most people aren't too bothered if we win. In the moment, they absolutely are.
Is this not proving my point a bit? People were finding reason to moan about the performance because we weren’t winning. Bet if you check the post match thread here you wouldn’t find many negative comments.
“Deserved win” “superb second half” “I like the application and desire”
Similarly, I read that I chose a “bad game” to reference against Bolton because it was our “best of the season”.
Was it? How did we play any differently? Nathan Jones didn’t set us up to be all conquering ball playing maestros for one match and then abandon it. The tactics would’ve been the same, or very similar, as usual. We all enjoyed it because it produced a result.
Repeat a question from before.
What point are you making here Callum? As I’m not clear. It feels like you are defending Jones, his style, and his outcomes merely for the sake of being contrary.
Do you believe in his tactics/ philosophy and do you think he will succeed?
I’m saying the style of play argument would disappear as soon as we win a few games and therefore it’s a weak argument against Jones compared to just being honest and saying you don’t like that we’re not winning.
People see negatives when we don’t get results and they see the positives when we do get results. Ben Garner set up with the opposite style to NJ (surely this is the type of manager we want if we want attacking football) and still got panned by fans - because we stopped winning games.
There is no right or wrong way to play football and only results tend to matter.
And yes, I do believe that the way Jones intends to have our team play can get results and can be successful. It’s not been so successful lately (over a period of less than two months) but I’m willing to give him more time.
1. I absolutely resent the accusation that I'm not being honest. I'm telling things how they are for me. I think they are the same for many for others too. I may be wrong about what others think, but there's no way on earth I'm not being honest; what I tell you about how I feel about this is exactly how it is. 2. You're right about us losing, I don't like it when we're not winning. 3. You're completely wrong about style of play. I hate this turgid boring football and I hate it regardless of whether we were winning or losing. Football is the beautiful game, I want to see its beauty. I do not wan't to spend my time being bored for ninety minutes and then jump for joy because we sneak a winner at the end of it. If it's all about results, then there's no point in watching because I can read the result afterwards and find out how many points we got. I go to football to be entertained. This side bores the crap out of me.
Are you telling me that if we were to win all 30 of our remaining games playing like we did at Burton or Shrewsbury and finish the season on 112 points, you’d still have complaints about the style of football?
If the answer is yes then fair enough, my argument / theory doesn’t apply to you.
But for 99.9% of fans, all their complaints about a style of play would disappear.
Callum this is what I’m saying mate. take a step back and think about what you’re saying/ suggesting and what you’re actually trying to achieve here !
You’re literally just contradicting people for the sake of it, to the extent you’re now coming up with an utterly farcical fantasy to try and prove something
Yet when YOU suggested a bet and I proposed one simply that we wouldn’t succeed with the modest objective of just making the play offs, you didn’t even believe in that…
Only conclusion is therefore that you know that we are utter shite and going nowhere but you are just being contrary for the sake of it 🤷🏼♂️
Genuinely not trying to be a wind up - originally I only wanted to make a point about style of play vs results as an argument for sacking a manager. As I see it, it’s part of the psychology of being a football fan to convince yourself that the two are more closely linked than they actually are but I guess I offended people.
The football isn’t pretty but it’s really not that bad for the level we’re at either. That’s just the reality of our situation.
We’ve recently convinced ourselves it must be extra bad because we didn’t win any games for a few weeks. But performance wise, it wasn’t much, if any, worse than when we won three in a row to start the season and almost everyone thought we were on to something good.
The football is awful for a club aiming for promotion from this league. If we were good at route one I could accept it more, but we’re not.
Powell played a flat 4-4-2 and we went long to Yann, but it was a more balanced approach than this. Even when Jones plays 4 midfielders we use two DMs with two ball winners in front.
Jones raised the standards and expectations in terms of work rate, aggression and intensity while he came in. Powell and Bowyer did the same, but the difference with Jones is he’s not done it for our play in possession and in attack.
Most games are kept tight so we could go on a run if we start scoring first and improve at the back, but longer term I don’t see this cautious, very direct and rigid style taking us much further. We’re set up as a small L1 club hoping to battle their way into the Championship where no doubt he’d try the same again at that level.
I don’t think Jones will change so he’ll either find a way to make it work or if poor results continue lose his job.
We had the rub of the green to get those results and there were alarm bells going. Then Bolton brainwashed me in to thinking I was wrong cos it was a decent performance but we’ve been complete and utter turgid guff for most of the time since then , which is what will happen when you’ve a lack of attacking talent and your set up is let’s hang on and nick something, over a longer period of time you reap what you sow .
Don’t forget the deadlock was broken against Bolton due to their defensive mistake (Santos) and not our skill
We had the rub of the green to get those results and there were alarm bells going. Then Bolton brainwashed me in to thinking I was wrong cos it was a decent performance but we’ve been complete and utter turgid guff for most of the time since then , which is what will happen when you’ve a lack of attacking talent and your set up is let’s hang on and nick something, over a longer period of time you reap what you sow .
Don’t forget the deadlock was broken against Bolton due to their defensive mistake (Santos) and not our skill
Tbf our whole game plan is about forcing teams into those kind of mistakes and punishing them
We can bore our way to promotion out of L1 for all I care. I don't expect the football to be marvellous in L1.
Play badly and lose. Fans not happy. Play well and lose. Fans less unhappy. Play badly and win. Fans happier than a loss. Play well and win. Fans happy.
I think everybody would rather us play lovely football and win but behind that comes not playing lovely football and winning. It beats playing nice to watch football and not winning. Let's be honest, Burton was on the face of it two poor sides and the game was a hard watch but it was softened by the win and we were the better side although the gripe is we were better than a side which has gained 8 points all season and we weren't spectacularly better.
I think it is possible to get results playing the way we do and we saw it at the start of the season, the way to do it is to have a tight defence and you only need to nick a goal and you win. What has changed since then is the defence has started and continued to leak soft goals. Hackney Marshes standard goals. And when that happens it highlights an issue we have had all season, and that is we find it too hard to create and indeed put the better chances away.
We are overall better defensively than last season but that isn't saying much. We haven't got a midfielder who can ping one in from 25 plus yards. We haven't got players who beat defenders, other than TC who is difficult to fit in the team and you need a couple of these types of players. The way to play against us is is to get defensive bodies behind the ball. It is well known and we seem to play better against better teams who might be more open because they are not adapting their game to us. We need space to be effective which we don't have in most games.
The solution to improve the results can be found in improving the defence, midfield and attack. Obvious, but improving one of these areas will make a big difference on its own as even now we generally lose by one or draw. Improve two and we might be sniffing around the promotion places. Improve all three and we ought to be pretty confident. I believe one player could improve each area. We are missing Jones and indeed Ramsey. But Jones would make us stringer defensively. We lack a creative midfielder. A Ricky Holmes type would really elevate us too.
It feels to me that we are trying to play a system that makes up for what we don't have and the best solution is to try to get those players and the solution isn't always in changing formations. Its a bit like re-arranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.
I think it's way too early to be thinking about ditching Jones tbh. Just for once I'd like to see what happens when we let a manager try to work through a problem, rather than just sacking them and hoping the next person in does better.
Just for comparison it's worth looking back at what Wycombe fans thought of Matt Bloomfield at the start of this year:
"I'm gobsmacked so many want to stick with him still. His record is awful, I want to say worst of anyone since we've been a league club, but I'm not sure, but can't be far off."
"I'm not vociferously Bloomfield Out but if there was a magic button to get rid of home without any financial drama, then I'd press it. It's not even the results for me, it's the tedious nature of the football... Previous managers have gone for lesser losing runs and entertainment reasons."
Their board stuck with him and now they're top of the table and the top goal-scorers in the division. He's on a 5-game winning streak and being linked with jobs in the Championship.
Fans always talk about style of football and how much it matters when their team isn't winning but in reality no-one actually cares if you're winning games.
If we were winning under Jones everyone would be loving the "passion, commitment and work rate" and forgetting the rest.
It's no coincidence that the last time people say they enjoyed watching Charlton was in 2019 under Bowyer and before that 2012 under Powell.
Neither of them were or are tactical geniuses - ask fans of other clubs they managed about their tactics and they'll tell you it was poor, because they didn't win.
Ultimately, win games and every football fan can trick themselves into believing the football is good.
I recall a fair few fans on here complaining about the style of play when we won our first three games of the season, AFKA touched on it in a post recently as well and got dozens of likes for it.
You must be misremembering… the entire forum was buzzing after our third win of the season - citing exactly the things I called out. Desire, commitment, hard work…
Try reading the match thread rather than the post match thread and you'll find that there were plenty of dissenting voices. People revise their opinions post-match to take account of the result, but that does not mean that they are satisfied whilst watching.
Retrospectively, most people aren't too bothered if we win. In the moment, they absolutely are.
Is this not proving my point a bit? People were finding reason to moan about the performance because we weren’t winning. Bet if you check the post match thread here you wouldn’t find many negative comments.
“Deserved win” “superb second half” “I like the application and desire”
Similarly, I read that I chose a “bad game” to reference against Bolton because it was our “best of the season”.
Was it? How did we play any differently? Nathan Jones didn’t set us up to be all conquering ball playing maestros for one match and then abandon it. The tactics would’ve been the same, or very similar, as usual. We all enjoyed it because it produced a result.
Repeat a question from before.
What point are you making here Callum? As I’m not clear. It feels like you are defending Jones, his style, and his outcomes merely for the sake of being contrary.
Do you believe in his tactics/ philosophy and do you think he will succeed?
I’m saying the style of play argument would disappear as soon as we win a few games and therefore it’s a weak argument against Jones compared to just being honest and saying you don’t like that we’re not winning.
People see negatives when we don’t get results and they see the positives when we do get results. Ben Garner set up with the opposite style to NJ (surely this is the type of manager we want if we want attacking football) and still got panned by fans - because we stopped winning games.
There is no right or wrong way to play football and only results tend to matter.
And yes, I do believe that the way Jones intends to have our team play can get results and can be successful. It’s not been so successful lately (over a period of less than two months) but I’m willing to give him more time.
1. I absolutely resent the accusation that I'm not being honest. I'm telling things how they are for me. I think they are the same for many for others too. I may be wrong about what others think, but there's no way on earth I'm not being honest; what I tell you about how I feel about this is exactly how it is. 2. You're right about us losing, I don't like it when we're not winning. 3. You're completely wrong about style of play. I hate this turgid boring football and I hate it regardless of whether we were winning or losing. Football is the beautiful game, I want to see its beauty. I do not wan't to spend my time being bored for ninety minutes and then jump for joy because we sneak a winner at the end of it. If it's all about results, then there's no point in watching because I can read the result afterwards and find out how many points we got. I go to football to be entertained. This side bores the crap out of me.
Are you telling me that if we were to win all 30 of our remaining games playing like we did at Burton or Shrewsbury and finish the season on 112 points, you’d still have complaints about the style of football?
If the answer is yes then fair enough, my argument / theory doesn’t apply to you.
But for 99.9% of fans, all their complaints about a style of play would disappear.
Callum this is what I’m saying mate. take a step back and think about what you’re saying/ suggesting and what you’re actually trying to achieve here !
You’re literally just contradicting people for the sake of it, to the extent you’re now coming up with an utterly farcical fantasy to try and prove something
Yet when YOU suggested a bet and I proposed one simply that we wouldn’t succeed with the modest objective of just making the play offs, you didn’t even believe in that…
Only conclusion is therefore that you know that we are utter shite and going nowhere but you are just being contrary for the sake of it 🤷🏼♂️
Genuinely not trying to be a wind up - originally I only wanted to make a point about style of play vs results as an argument for sacking a manager. As I see it, it’s part of the psychology of being a football fan to convince yourself that the two are more closely linked than they actually are but I guess I offended people.
The football isn’t pretty but it’s really not that bad for the level we’re at either. That’s just the reality of our situation.
We’ve recently convinced ourselves it must be extra bad because we didn’t win any games for a few weeks. But performance wise, it wasn’t much, if any, worse than when we won three in a row to start the season and almost everyone thought we were on to something good.
I thought the first 3 games were pretty poor to be honest. I got panned for pointing this out in the xG thread, but captain cardigan and his entourage were convinced we were looking like a top of the table team we were temporarily masquerading in the table as.
And yes the football is so dull, I wouldn't enjoy it even if we were winning. It's dreadful.
But I wouldn't advocate sacking Jones because there's noone else I'd have confidence in that would be interested in us anyway.
I think it's way too early to be thinking about ditching Jones tbh. Just for once I'd like to see what happens when we let a manager try to work through a problem, rather than just sacking them and hoping the next person in does better.
Just for comparison it's worth looking back at what Wycombe fans thought of Matt Bloomfield at the start of this year:
"I'm gobsmacked so many want to stick with him still. His record is awful, I want to say worst of anyone since we've been a league club, but I'm not sure, but can't be far off."
"I'm not vociferously Bloomfield Out but if there was a magic button to get rid of home without any financial drama, then I'd press it. It's not even the results for me, it's the tedious nature of the football... Previous managers have gone for lesser losing runs and entertainment reasons."
Their board stuck with him and now they're top of the table and the top goal-scorers in the division. He's on a 5-game winning streak and being linked with jobs in the Championship.
Fans always talk about style of football and how much it matters when their team isn't winning but in reality no-one actually cares if you're winning games.
If we were winning under Jones everyone would be loving the "passion, commitment and work rate" and forgetting the rest.
It's no coincidence that the last time people say they enjoyed watching Charlton was in 2019 under Bowyer and before that 2012 under Powell.
Neither of them were or are tactical geniuses - ask fans of other clubs they managed about their tactics and they'll tell you it was poor, because they didn't win.
Ultimately, win games and every football fan can trick themselves into believing the football is good.
I recall a fair few fans on here complaining about the style of play when we won our first three games of the season, AFKA touched on it in a post recently as well and got dozens of likes for it.
You must be misremembering… the entire forum was buzzing after our third win of the season - citing exactly the things I called out. Desire, commitment, hard work…
Try reading the match thread rather than the post match thread and you'll find that there were plenty of dissenting voices. People revise their opinions post-match to take account of the result, but that does not mean that they are satisfied whilst watching.
Retrospectively, most people aren't too bothered if we win. In the moment, they absolutely are.
Is this not proving my point a bit? People were finding reason to moan about the performance because we weren’t winning. Bet if you check the post match thread here you wouldn’t find many negative comments.
“Deserved win” “superb second half” “I like the application and desire”
Similarly, I read that I chose a “bad game” to reference against Bolton because it was our “best of the season”.
Was it? How did we play any differently? Nathan Jones didn’t set us up to be all conquering ball playing maestros for one match and then abandon it. The tactics would’ve been the same, or very similar, as usual. We all enjoyed it because it produced a result.
Repeat a question from before.
What point are you making here Callum? As I’m not clear. It feels like you are defending Jones, his style, and his outcomes merely for the sake of being contrary.
Do you believe in his tactics/ philosophy and do you think he will succeed?
I’m saying the style of play argument would disappear as soon as we win a few games and therefore it’s a weak argument against Jones compared to just being honest and saying you don’t like that we’re not winning.
People see negatives when we don’t get results and they see the positives when we do get results. Ben Garner set up with the opposite style to NJ (surely this is the type of manager we want if we want attacking football) and still got panned by fans - because we stopped winning games.
There is no right or wrong way to play football and only results tend to matter.
And yes, I do believe that the way Jones intends to have our team play can get results and can be successful. It’s not been so successful lately (over a period of less than two months) but I’m willing to give him more time.
1. I absolutely resent the accusation that I'm not being honest. I'm telling things how they are for me. I think they are the same for many for others too. I may be wrong about what others think, but there's no way on earth I'm not being honest; what I tell you about how I feel about this is exactly how it is. 2. You're right about us losing, I don't like it when we're not winning. 3. You're completely wrong about style of play. I hate this turgid boring football and I hate it regardless of whether we were winning or losing. Football is the beautiful game, I want to see its beauty. I do not wan't to spend my time being bored for ninety minutes and then jump for joy because we sneak a winner at the end of it. If it's all about results, then there's no point in watching because I can read the result afterwards and find out how many points we got. I go to football to be entertained. This side bores the crap out of me.
Are you telling me that if we were to win all 30 of our remaining games playing like we did at Burton or Shrewsbury and finish the season on 112 points, you’d still have complaints about the style of football?
If the answer is yes then fair enough, my argument / theory doesn’t apply to you.
But for 99.9% of fans, all their complaints about a style of play would disappear.
Callum this is what I’m saying mate. take a step back and think about what you’re saying/ suggesting and what you’re actually trying to achieve here !
You’re literally just contradicting people for the sake of it, to the extent you’re now coming up with an utterly farcical fantasy to try and prove something
Yet when YOU suggested a bet and I proposed one simply that we wouldn’t succeed with the modest objective of just making the play offs, you didn’t even believe in that…
Only conclusion is therefore that you know that we are utter shite and going nowhere but you are just being contrary for the sake of it 🤷🏼♂️
Genuinely not trying to be a wind up - originally I only wanted to make a point about style of play vs results as an argument for sacking a manager. As I see it, it’s part of the psychology of being a football fan to convince yourself that the two are more closely linked than they actually are but I guess I offended people.
The football isn’t pretty but it’s really not that bad for the level we’re at either. That’s just the reality of our situation.
We’ve recently convinced ourselves it must be extra bad because we didn’t win any games for a few weeks. But performance wise, it wasn’t much, if any, worse than when we won three in a row to start the season and almost everyone thought we were on to something good.
I thought the first 3 games were pretty poor to be honest. I got panned for pointing this out in the xG thread, but captain cardigan and his entourage were convinced we were looking like a top of the table team we were temporarily masquerading in the table as.
And yes the football is so dull, I wouldn't enjoy it even if we were winning. It's dreadful.
But I wouldn't advocate sacking Jones because there's noone else I'd have confidence in that would be interested in us anyway.
The first three games were poor despite us winning them, us and Wigan could have played until midnight without a goal being scored, it took a Wigan defensive error to allow us to break the deadlock
I think it's way too early to be thinking about ditching Jones tbh. Just for once I'd like to see what happens when we let a manager try to work through a problem, rather than just sacking them and hoping the next person in does better.
Just for comparison it's worth looking back at what Wycombe fans thought of Matt Bloomfield at the start of this year:
"I'm gobsmacked so many want to stick with him still. His record is awful, I want to say worst of anyone since we've been a league club, but I'm not sure, but can't be far off."
"I'm not vociferously Bloomfield Out but if there was a magic button to get rid of home without any financial drama, then I'd press it. It's not even the results for me, it's the tedious nature of the football... Previous managers have gone for lesser losing runs and entertainment reasons."
Their board stuck with him and now they're top of the table and the top goal-scorers in the division. He's on a 5-game winning streak and being linked with jobs in the Championship.
Fans always talk about style of football and how much it matters when their team isn't winning but in reality no-one actually cares if you're winning games.
If we were winning under Jones everyone would be loving the "passion, commitment and work rate" and forgetting the rest.
It's no coincidence that the last time people say they enjoyed watching Charlton was in 2019 under Bowyer and before that 2012 under Powell.
Neither of them were or are tactical geniuses - ask fans of other clubs they managed about their tactics and they'll tell you it was poor, because they didn't win.
Ultimately, win games and every football fan can trick themselves into believing the football is good.
I recall a fair few fans on here complaining about the style of play when we won our first three games of the season, AFKA touched on it in a post recently as well and got dozens of likes for it.
You must be misremembering… the entire forum was buzzing after our third win of the season - citing exactly the things I called out. Desire, commitment, hard work…
Try reading the match thread rather than the post match thread and you'll find that there were plenty of dissenting voices. People revise their opinions post-match to take account of the result, but that does not mean that they are satisfied whilst watching.
Retrospectively, most people aren't too bothered if we win. In the moment, they absolutely are.
Is this not proving my point a bit? People were finding reason to moan about the performance because we weren’t winning. Bet if you check the post match thread here you wouldn’t find many negative comments.
“Deserved win” “superb second half” “I like the application and desire”
Similarly, I read that I chose a “bad game” to reference against Bolton because it was our “best of the season”.
Was it? How did we play any differently? Nathan Jones didn’t set us up to be all conquering ball playing maestros for one match and then abandon it. The tactics would’ve been the same, or very similar, as usual. We all enjoyed it because it produced a result.
Repeat a question from before.
What point are you making here Callum? As I’m not clear. It feels like you are defending Jones, his style, and his outcomes merely for the sake of being contrary.
Do you believe in his tactics/ philosophy and do you think he will succeed?
I’m saying the style of play argument would disappear as soon as we win a few games and therefore it’s a weak argument against Jones compared to just being honest and saying you don’t like that we’re not winning.
People see negatives when we don’t get results and they see the positives when we do get results. Ben Garner set up with the opposite style to NJ (surely this is the type of manager we want if we want attacking football) and still got panned by fans - because we stopped winning games.
There is no right or wrong way to play football and only results tend to matter.
And yes, I do believe that the way Jones intends to have our team play can get results and can be successful. It’s not been so successful lately (over a period of less than two months) but I’m willing to give him more time.
1. I absolutely resent the accusation that I'm not being honest. I'm telling things how they are for me. I think they are the same for many for others too. I may be wrong about what others think, but there's no way on earth I'm not being honest; what I tell you about how I feel about this is exactly how it is. 2. You're right about us losing, I don't like it when we're not winning. 3. You're completely wrong about style of play. I hate this turgid boring football and I hate it regardless of whether we were winning or losing. Football is the beautiful game, I want to see its beauty. I do not wan't to spend my time being bored for ninety minutes and then jump for joy because we sneak a winner at the end of it. If it's all about results, then there's no point in watching because I can read the result afterwards and find out how many points we got. I go to football to be entertained. This side bores the crap out of me.
Are you telling me that if we were to win all 30 of our remaining games playing like we did at Burton or Shrewsbury and finish the season on 112 points, you’d still have complaints about the style of football?
If the answer is yes then fair enough, my argument / theory doesn’t apply to you.
But for 99.9% of fans, all their complaints about a style of play would disappear.
Callum this is what I’m saying mate. take a step back and think about what you’re saying/ suggesting and what you’re actually trying to achieve here !
You’re literally just contradicting people for the sake of it, to the extent you’re now coming up with an utterly farcical fantasy to try and prove something
Yet when YOU suggested a bet and I proposed one simply that we wouldn’t succeed with the modest objective of just making the play offs, you didn’t even believe in that…
Only conclusion is therefore that you know that we are utter shite and going nowhere but you are just being contrary for the sake of it 🤷🏼♂️
Genuinely not trying to be a wind up - originally I only wanted to make a point about style of play vs results as an argument for sacking a manager. As I see it, it’s part of the psychology of being a football fan to convince yourself that the two are more closely linked than they actually are but I guess I offended people.
The football isn’t pretty but it’s really not that bad for the level we’re at either. That’s just the reality of our situation.
We’ve recently convinced ourselves it must be extra bad because we didn’t win any games for a few weeks. But performance wise, it wasn’t much, if any, worse than when we won three in a row to start the season and almost everyone thought we were on to something good.
I thought the first 3 games were pretty poor to be honest. I got panned for pointing this out in the xG thread, but captain cardigan and his entourage were convinced we were looking like a top of the table team we were temporarily masquerading in the table as.
And yes the football is so dull, I wouldn't enjoy it even if we were winning. It's dreadful.
But I wouldn't advocate sacking Jones because there's noone else I'd have confidence in that would be interested in us anyway.
The first three games were poor despite us winning them, us and Wigan could have played until midnight without a goal being scored, it took a Wigan defensive error to allow us to break the deadlock
We were incredibly lucky to win all of the first 3. Although we did defend very well.
I think it's way too early to be thinking about ditching Jones tbh. Just for once I'd like to see what happens when we let a manager try to work through a problem, rather than just sacking them and hoping the next person in does better.
Just for comparison it's worth looking back at what Wycombe fans thought of Matt Bloomfield at the start of this year:
"I'm gobsmacked so many want to stick with him still. His record is awful, I want to say worst of anyone since we've been a league club, but I'm not sure, but can't be far off."
"I'm not vociferously Bloomfield Out but if there was a magic button to get rid of home without any financial drama, then I'd press it. It's not even the results for me, it's the tedious nature of the football... Previous managers have gone for lesser losing runs and entertainment reasons."
Their board stuck with him and now they're top of the table and the top goal-scorers in the division. He's on a 5-game winning streak and being linked with jobs in the Championship.
Fans always talk about style of football and how much it matters when their team isn't winning but in reality no-one actually cares if you're winning games.
If we were winning under Jones everyone would be loving the "passion, commitment and work rate" and forgetting the rest.
It's no coincidence that the last time people say they enjoyed watching Charlton was in 2019 under Bowyer and before that 2012 under Powell.
Neither of them were or are tactical geniuses - ask fans of other clubs they managed about their tactics and they'll tell you it was poor, because they didn't win.
Ultimately, win games and every football fan can trick themselves into believing the football is good.
I recall a fair few fans on here complaining about the style of play when we won our first three games of the season, AFKA touched on it in a post recently as well and got dozens of likes for it.
You must be misremembering… the entire forum was buzzing after our third win of the season - citing exactly the things I called out. Desire, commitment, hard work…
Try reading the match thread rather than the post match thread and you'll find that there were plenty of dissenting voices. People revise their opinions post-match to take account of the result, but that does not mean that they are satisfied whilst watching.
Retrospectively, most people aren't too bothered if we win. In the moment, they absolutely are.
Is this not proving my point a bit? People were finding reason to moan about the performance because we weren’t winning. Bet if you check the post match thread here you wouldn’t find many negative comments.
“Deserved win” “superb second half” “I like the application and desire”
Similarly, I read that I chose a “bad game” to reference against Bolton because it was our “best of the season”.
Was it? How did we play any differently? Nathan Jones didn’t set us up to be all conquering ball playing maestros for one match and then abandon it. The tactics would’ve been the same, or very similar, as usual. We all enjoyed it because it produced a result.
Repeat a question from before.
What point are you making here Callum? As I’m not clear. It feels like you are defending Jones, his style, and his outcomes merely for the sake of being contrary.
Do you believe in his tactics/ philosophy and do you think he will succeed?
I’m saying the style of play argument would disappear as soon as we win a few games and therefore it’s a weak argument against Jones compared to just being honest and saying you don’t like that we’re not winning.
People see negatives when we don’t get results and they see the positives when we do get results. Ben Garner set up with the opposite style to NJ (surely this is the type of manager we want if we want attacking football) and still got panned by fans - because we stopped winning games.
There is no right or wrong way to play football and only results tend to matter.
And yes, I do believe that the way Jones intends to have our team play can get results and can be successful. It’s not been so successful lately (over a period of less than two months) but I’m willing to give him more time.
1. I absolutely resent the accusation that I'm not being honest. I'm telling things how they are for me. I think they are the same for many for others too. I may be wrong about what others think, but there's no way on earth I'm not being honest; what I tell you about how I feel about this is exactly how it is. 2. You're right about us losing, I don't like it when we're not winning. 3. You're completely wrong about style of play. I hate this turgid boring football and I hate it regardless of whether we were winning or losing. Football is the beautiful game, I want to see its beauty. I do not wan't to spend my time being bored for ninety minutes and then jump for joy because we sneak a winner at the end of it. If it's all about results, then there's no point in watching because I can read the result afterwards and find out how many points we got. I go to football to be entertained. This side bores the crap out of me.
Are you telling me that if we were to win all 30 of our remaining games playing like we did at Burton or Shrewsbury and finish the season on 112 points, you’d still have complaints about the style of football?
If the answer is yes then fair enough, my argument / theory doesn’t apply to you.
But for 99.9% of fans, all their complaints about a style of play would disappear.
Callum this is what I’m saying mate. take a step back and think about what you’re saying/ suggesting and what you’re actually trying to achieve here !
You’re literally just contradicting people for the sake of it, to the extent you’re now coming up with an utterly farcical fantasy to try and prove something
Yet when YOU suggested a bet and I proposed one simply that we wouldn’t succeed with the modest objective of just making the play offs, you didn’t even believe in that…
Only conclusion is therefore that you know that we are utter shite and going nowhere but you are just being contrary for the sake of it 🤷🏼♂️
Genuinely not trying to be a wind up - originally I only wanted to make a point about style of play vs results as an argument for sacking a manager. As I see it, it’s part of the psychology of being a football fan to convince yourself that the two are more closely linked than they actually are but I guess I offended people.
The football isn’t pretty but it’s really not that bad for the level we’re at either. That’s just the reality of our situation.
We’ve recently convinced ourselves it must be extra bad because we didn’t win any games for a few weeks. But performance wise, it wasn’t much, if any, worse than when we won three in a row to start the season and almost everyone thought we were on to something good.
I thought the first 3 games were pretty poor to be honest. I got panned for pointing this out in the xG thread, but captain cardigan and his entourage were convinced we were looking like a top of the table team we were temporarily masquerading in the table as.
And yes the football is so dull, I wouldn't enjoy it even if we were winning. It's dreadful.
But I wouldn't advocate sacking Jones because there's noone else I'd have confidence in that would be interested in us anyway.
Jones has passion and seems to care, atm it's not worked out. I'd give him another 12 months, that will see two more transfer windows and then we can reassess.
“It’s starting to turn around again. As I’ve said to the fans, who were magnificent again today, we’ve just got to stay in. Stay involved, stay close (to the top six) because when we hit the ground running, get everyone back and are the team I want us to be then that is exciting.”
This is what I’m clinging to, things will get better, just stick to the plan and trust NJ and the process.
“It’s starting to turn around again. As I’ve said to the fans, who were magnificent again today, we’ve just got to stay in. Stay involved, stay close (to the top six) because when we hit the ground running, get everyone back and are the team I want us to be then that is exciting.”
This is what I’m clinging to, things will get better, just stick to the plan and trust NJ and the process.
We've got to cling to it though, that's kind of the problem. Just how bloody long is it going to take to "hit the ground running", what is stopping us being the team he wants to be and what is he doing about it?
Because we simply don't have a clue. It's literally just been weeks of "Yeah I know we're shit but I don't like it either."
If you look at the team's form for the past 2 years, I think it would be very very closely aligned with Chuks Aneke availability and form.
Current 11 we are putting out looks an extremely average league one team. Recruitment remains the biggest cause of our problems, as we have little attacking quality in midfield or up front.
Who is to blame for recruitment? A mixture of Jones, Scott and circumstance.
Jones has to take full blame for odd team selections though. Seems desperate to exclude Terry Taylor, Dixon or any semblance of attacking ability from the club, but equally desperate to include Hylton to justify paying him a wage.
I think it's way too early to be thinking about ditching Jones tbh. Just for once I'd like to see what happens when we let a manager try to work through a problem, rather than just sacking them and hoping the next person in does better.
Just for comparison it's worth looking back at what Wycombe fans thought of Matt Bloomfield at the start of this year:
"I'm gobsmacked so many want to stick with him still. His record is awful, I want to say worst of anyone since we've been a league club, but I'm not sure, but can't be far off."
"I'm not vociferously Bloomfield Out but if there was a magic button to get rid of home without any financial drama, then I'd press it. It's not even the results for me, it's the tedious nature of the football... Previous managers have gone for lesser losing runs and entertainment reasons."
Their board stuck with him and now they're top of the table and the top goal-scorers in the division. He's on a 5-game winning streak and being linked with jobs in the Championship.
Fans always talk about style of football and how much it matters when their team isn't winning but in reality no-one actually cares if you're winning games.
If we were winning under Jones everyone would be loving the "passion, commitment and work rate" and forgetting the rest.
It's no coincidence that the last time people say they enjoyed watching Charlton was in 2019 under Bowyer and before that 2012 under Powell.
Neither of them were or are tactical geniuses - ask fans of other clubs they managed about their tactics and they'll tell you it was poor, because they didn't win.
Ultimately, win games and every football fan can trick themselves into believing the football is good.
I recall a fair few fans on here complaining about the style of play when we won our first three games of the season, AFKA touched on it in a post recently as well and got dozens of likes for it.
You must be misremembering… the entire forum was buzzing after our third win of the season - citing exactly the things I called out. Desire, commitment, hard work…
Try reading the match thread rather than the post match thread and you'll find that there were plenty of dissenting voices. People revise their opinions post-match to take account of the result, but that does not mean that they are satisfied whilst watching.
Retrospectively, most people aren't too bothered if we win. In the moment, they absolutely are.
Is this not proving my point a bit? People were finding reason to moan about the performance because we weren’t winning. Bet if you check the post match thread here you wouldn’t find many negative comments.
“Deserved win” “superb second half” “I like the application and desire”
Similarly, I read that I chose a “bad game” to reference against Bolton because it was our “best of the season”.
Was it? How did we play any differently? Nathan Jones didn’t set us up to be all conquering ball playing maestros for one match and then abandon it. The tactics would’ve been the same, or very similar, as usual. We all enjoyed it because it produced a result.
Repeat a question from before.
What point are you making here Callum? As I’m not clear. It feels like you are defending Jones, his style, and his outcomes merely for the sake of being contrary.
Do you believe in his tactics/ philosophy and do you think he will succeed?
I’m saying the style of play argument would disappear as soon as we win a few games and therefore it’s a weak argument against Jones compared to just being honest and saying you don’t like that we’re not winning.
People see negatives when we don’t get results and they see the positives when we do get results. Ben Garner set up with the opposite style to NJ (surely this is the type of manager we want if we want attacking football) and still got panned by fans - because we stopped winning games.
There is no right or wrong way to play football and only results tend to matter.
And yes, I do believe that the way Jones intends to have our team play can get results and can be successful. It’s not been so successful lately (over a period of less than two months) but I’m willing to give him more time.
I certainly admire your optimism Callum but sadly I don’t think many share it .
One of the biggest changes and disappointment for me is they have stopped being on the front foot and chasing the opponents down and being agressive. I thought the games they did that showed determination. They have done it a few times since e.g. Birmingham but why has that not continued for every game?.
One of the biggest changes and disappointment for me is they have stopped being on the front foot and chasing the opponents down and being agressive. I thought the games they did that showed determination. They have done it a few times since e.g. Birmingham but why has that not continued for every game?.
Exactly this ! If you are going to play a system that relies on long high balls you have to be pressing to win the 2nd phase. We are just not doing that anymore all we are doing is giving possession back to the opposition. Yes a 4-0 away win is great but I don’t think this style of play will win the amount of games we need to get promoted
Didn't like his interview yesterday again... passive aggressive dig, based on justifying his position and defending how we're doing given our successful progression from the BSM trophy group stage (as well as the successful dispatch of two lower division teams in the FA Cup) - a very chastening emphasis of the state we're in as a football club, and how misaligned Jones is with the supporter base.
Nathan, just so you're clear. Whilst we are in L1, 99% focus on the league, 0.99% on the FA Cup, BSM you can play the U21s I don't care if we lose 10 nil mate.
Get us promoted. All that matters. We've been shit in the league and you know it so just acknowledge that and make sure it changes immediately, and be self aware enough not to brag about overseeing a win against lower division opposition in the cup
Didn't like his interview yesterday again... passive aggressive dig, based on justifying his position and defending how we're doing given our successful progression from the BSM trophy group stage (as well as the successful dispatch of two lower division teams in the FA Cup) - a very chastening emphasis of the state we're in as a football club, and how misaligned Jones is with the supporter base.
Nathan, just so you're clear. Whilst we are in L1, 99% focus on the league, 0.99% on the FA Cup, BSM you can play the U21s I don't care if we lose 10 nil mate.
Get us promoted. All that matters. We've been shit in the league and you know it so just acknowledge that and make sure it changes immediately, and be self aware enough not to brag about overseeing a win against lower division opposition in the cup
I think he may be suffering from little man syndrome.
The style of play argument against Jones for me is an odd one as we all know that if we were winning games most wouldnt complain if the football wasnt particularly attractive, after all I remember the football we played under Curbs with Bartlett (in the prem, pre Bent) up top wasnt too pretty either but most didnt care because of what we were achieving.
All that said is the results arent going our way and thats going to put extra emphasis on our style of play, winning ugly is acceptable but losing ugly isnt. For the style of play to be a defence for NJ we do actually have to win games. The next month is vital for him we need to be around play-offs come Jan to get the calibre of players we need in and get the board to part with cash. If we are going to be mid-table with very little prospect of play-offs we may as well let Jones see out the season with what he has (as long as we arent facing relegation) then decide in the summer whether we back jones with more resources or those resources should go to a new manager.
Also one thing i do see here i Jones getting stick for his "failure" at Southampton, in his defence i think Ancelotti, Ferguson, Clough et al would have struggled with that team. they were truly one of the worst in Prem history.
Well we did win Tuesday, but it hasn't stopped the style of play argument. Why is it odd? I would agree if we were consistently winning people would be more accepting of the style but I doubt it would be stop the criticism. I don't accept your tenuous comparison with Curbs "Bartlett" era. There is no comparison between this perennial third division shit and Curbs making us competitive in the Premier League with comparatively inferior players to other PL sides
Because it was one win against a team with 8 points who are bottom of the league.
I didnt compare, thats a strawman argument. So it's not tenuous and your point at the end is regarding curbishley is literally the point im making.
You literally made a comparison. It's there in black and white ffs. No straw involved. And yes, it was one win, but that doesn't invalidate my point that consistent wins would not stop the criticism dead. Might get a lot less, but not end completely I'll resist the urge to reciprocate your spurious LOL
I dont think you understand what comparison is ? I mentioned that when we played poor football under Curbishley people didn't mind as long as we got results, Jones isn't getting results so its not a comparison ?
Miriam-Webster dictionary definition of comparison - "the representing of one thing or person as similar to or like another"
I'm literally saying they are nothing like each other ? Now repeat that back to me so i know you understood it.
Spurious ? Mate was the LOL fake ? please don't use words you don't understand. Just stick to your comfort zone and only use words you see in The Sun or back of cereal boxes.
Ouch, I don't want to get on the wrong side of you
I'm just like everyone else here just much more intelligent, richer, privately educated and much much more humble.
I keep seeing the comments along the lines of ''if we were winning, no one would care'' on here and on twitter, and I have to take issue with that.
Not one person at Burton, or the majority of away games I've been to has said we played well etc that I interacted with. I'd actually say every single person I could hear or see around me at Burton was criticising how we played and when we did score, it was more just relief we got a result.
Not being a snob, and not attacking anyone's credentials as a Charlton fan or how much they attend, but it is a completely different feeling travelling for 7+ hours through the day and watching a poor performance, over sitting on the couch and spending a tenner on CharltonTV. I'm speaking from experience here. When I watched Huddersfield away the other week on the telly, I didn't feel anywhere near as disappointed as Reading away as a more recent example when we lost.
Ok I was disappointed Charlton lost, but it's a lot easier accepting s**t performances and bad results when you can just get off your couch and put on call of duty or Netflix etc.
If I spend 60-100 on petrol, 20+ on a ticket, every other weekend, I expect us to look like a team who has practiced and show ability.
I need to make it clear I'm not gate keeping, it's just the levels of disappointment just can't be the same when you're there, as opposed to watching from the comfort at home.
Glad you are not being a snob. You should remember that whilst you may be travelling the length and breath of the country now you won't be doing it forever and a great, great many sitting at home now have done what you are doing now for years and years and for one reason or another have stopped. So we feel your pain but don't for one second think it doesn't hurt us as much as it hurts you.
I bloody hope it ain't forever, barely want to do it the rest of the season.
Large I more mean the money mate, when I don't go, I think lovely, 150 or thereabouts saved. That's my point. If people feel differently that's fine, but I feel a lot more comfort if we lose and I ain't spent a penny.
Again, not a dig, just saying it how I see it. For me personally, there's a completely different level of frustration when you've forked out money and time compared to just time. That could be a personal thing and I more than likely don't speak for everyone.
Didn't like his interview yesterday again... passive aggressive dig, based on justifying his position and defending how we're doing given our successful progression from the BSM trophy group stage (as well as the successful dispatch of two lower division teams in the FA Cup) - a very chastening emphasis of the state we're in as a football club, and how misaligned Jones is with the supporter base.
Nathan, just so you're clear. Whilst we are in L1, 99% focus on the league, 0.99% on the FA Cup, BSM you can play the U21s I don't care if we lose 10 nil mate.
Get us promoted. All that matters. We've been shit in the league and you know it so just acknowledge that and make sure it changes immediately, and be self aware enough not to brag about overseeing a win against lower division opposition in the cup
I keep seeing the comments along the lines of ''if we were winning, no one would care'' on here and on twitter, and I have to take issue with that.
Not one person at Burton, or the majority of away games I've been to has said we played well etc that I interacted with. I'd actually say every single person I could hear or see around me at Burton was criticising how we played and when we did score, it was more just relief we got a result.
Not being a snob, and not attacking anyone's credentials as a Charlton fan or how much they attend, but it is a completely different feeling travelling for 7+ hours through the day and watching a poor performance, over sitting on the couch and spending a tenner on CharltonTV. I'm speaking from experience here. When I watched Huddersfield away the other week on the telly, I didn't feel anywhere near as disappointed as Reading away as a more recent example when we lost.
Ok I was disappointed Charlton lost, but it's a lot easier accepting s**t performances and bad results when you can just get off your couch and put on call of duty or Netflix etc.
If I spend 60-100 on petrol, 20+ on a ticket, every other weekend, I expect us to look like a team who has practiced and show ability.
I need to make it clear I'm not gate keeping, it's just the levels of disappointment just can't be the same when you're there, as opposed to watching from the comfort at home.
Glad you are not being a snob. You should remember that whilst you may be travelling the length and breath of the country now you won't be doing it forever and a great, great many sitting at home now have done what you are doing now for years and years and for one reason or another have stopped. So we feel your pain but don't for one second think it doesn't hurt us as much as it hurts you.
I bloody hope it ain't forever, barely want to do it the rest of the season.
Large I more mean the money mate, when I don't go, I think lovely, 150 or thereabouts saved. That's my point. If people feel differently that's fine, but I feel a lot more comfort if we lose and I ain't spent a penny.
Again, not a dig, just saying it how I see it. For me personally, there's a completely different level of frustration when you've forked out money and time compared to just time. That could be a personal thing and I more than likely don't speak for everyone.
Not digging you out either but worth remembering that for some of us “just time” can be quite a sacrifice too. I would love to fork out £150 but I have things that mean I can’t leave my house for a weekend but I can just about squeeze 2 hours
I'm sure Bowyer could turn CC into a decent all-round midfielder. Doubt Jones is capable of individual improvement to players. Perhaps turning TC into a striker.
Small has regressed, Leaburn doesn't know whether to pass to a donkey CDM or go it alone, Gillesphey the most technical player?
Comments
Have a day off from your rose tinted goggles.
In recent games the energy has notably dropped outside of a few exceptions. We're still not scoring many but now we are conceding many more.
The TACTICS have not changed. The style has not changed. The performances HAVE changed... for the worse.
Then Bolton brainwashed me in to thinking I was wrong cos it was a decent performance but we’ve been complete and utter turgid guff for most of the time since then , which is what will happen when you’ve a lack of attacking talent and your set up is let’s hang on and nick something, over a longer period of time you reap what you sow .
Powell played a flat 4-4-2 and we went long to Yann, but it was a more balanced approach than this. Even when Jones plays 4 midfielders we use two DMs with two ball winners in front.
Jones raised the standards and expectations in terms of work rate, aggression and intensity while he came in. Powell and Bowyer did the same, but the difference with Jones is he’s not done it for our play in possession and in attack.
Most games are kept tight so we could go on a run if we start scoring first and improve at the back, but longer term I don’t see this cautious, very direct and rigid style taking us much further. We’re set up as a small L1 club hoping to battle their way into the Championship where no doubt he’d try the same again at that level.
Play badly and lose. Fans not happy.
Play well and lose. Fans less unhappy.
Play badly and win. Fans happier than a loss.
Play well and win. Fans happy.
On a scale of happiness, results have it.
I think it is possible to get results playing the way we do and we saw it at the start of the season, the way to do it is to have a tight defence and you only need to nick a goal and you win. What has changed since then is the defence has started and continued to leak soft goals. Hackney Marshes standard goals. And when that happens it highlights an issue we have had all season, and that is we find it too hard to create and indeed put the better chances away.
We are overall better defensively than last season but that isn't saying much. We haven't got a midfielder who can ping one in from 25 plus yards. We haven't got players who beat defenders, other than TC who is difficult to fit in the team and you need a couple of these types of players. The way to play against us is is to get defensive bodies behind the ball. It is well known and we seem to play better against better teams who might be more open because they are not adapting their game to us. We need space to be effective which we don't have in most games.
The solution to improve the results can be found in improving the defence, midfield and attack. Obvious, but improving one of these areas will make a big difference on its own as even now we generally lose by one or draw. Improve two and we might be sniffing around the promotion places. Improve all three and we ought to be pretty confident. I believe one player could improve each area. We are missing Jones and indeed Ramsey. But Jones would make us stringer defensively. We lack a creative midfielder. A Ricky Holmes type would really elevate us too.
It feels to me that we are trying to play a system that makes up for what we don't have and the best solution is to try to get those players and the solution isn't always in changing formations. Its a bit like re-arranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.
And yes the football is so dull, I wouldn't enjoy it even if we were winning. It's dreadful.
But I wouldn't advocate sacking Jones because there's noone else I'd have confidence in that would be interested in us anyway.
This is what I’m clinging to, things will get better, just stick to the plan and trust NJ and the process.
Because we simply don't have a clue. It's literally just been weeks of "Yeah I know we're shit but I don't like it either."
Current 11 we are putting out looks an extremely average league one team. Recruitment remains the biggest cause of our problems, as we have little attacking quality in midfield or up front.
Who is to blame for recruitment? A mixture of Jones, Scott and circumstance.
Jones has to take full blame for odd team selections though. Seems desperate to exclude Terry Taylor, Dixon or any semblance of attacking ability from the club, but equally desperate to include Hylton to justify paying him a wage.
Nathan, just so you're clear. Whilst we are in L1, 99% focus on the league, 0.99% on the FA Cup, BSM you can play the U21s I don't care if we lose 10 nil mate.
Get us promoted. All that matters. We've been shit in the league and you know it so just acknowledge that and make sure it changes immediately, and be self aware enough not to brag about overseeing a win against lower division opposition in the cup
Large I more mean the money mate, when I don't go, I think lovely, 150 or thereabouts saved. That's my point. If people feel differently that's fine, but I feel a lot more comfort if we lose and I ain't spent a penny.
Again, not a dig, just saying it how I see it. For me personally, there's a completely different level of frustration when you've forked out money and time compared to just time. That could be a personal thing and I more than likely don't speak for everyone.
Small has regressed, Leaburn doesn't know whether to pass to a donkey CDM or go it alone, Gillesphey the most technical player?