Ireland England game/ CAFC in Dublin

KBslittlesis

SpicedAddick said:

RodneyCharltonTrotta said:

SpicedAddick said:

Does anyone here follow rugby??

Probably.  Freaks of every kind on here.

The reason I ask is because rugby fans tend to be much more relaxed about how important the nation of a players birth is to the nation they represent.

And the reason why Ireland have become so successful. So it does make me giggle how their football fans have gone (imho) so ott about it.

It was interesting watching the game on RTÉ, especially the start of the second half where they couldn’t get their head around how many home supporters obviously chose to stay at the bar or go home.

SuedeAdidas

I’m not 100% sure where the line should be…..but I do agree that DR should not be playing for England. 

I think it harsh that you can play up to U21 level ( and senior friendly in Rice’s case I think) - and then be able to change allegiance. 

I also disagree with all kinds of mechanisms to swap national sides based upon residency. 

One’s eligibility to play for a national side should be based on place of birth or parents birth IMO. 

Stu_of_Kunming

Rice should absolutely have the right to choose between England and Ireland, based on birthplace and family, but once he had that first senior cap, that should be that. 

SuedeAdidas

Stu_of_Kunming said:

Rice should absolutely have the right to choose between England and Ireland, based on birthplace and family, but once he had that first senior cap, that should be that. 

Given how quickly players develop these days - I’d maybe also argue that once you play U21 you cannot swap. 

Chris_from_Sidcup

SuedeAdidas said:

I’m not 100% sure where the line should be…..but I do agree that DR should not be playing for England. 

I think it harsh that you can play up to U21 level ( and senior friendly in Rice’s case I think) - and then be able to change allegiance. 

I also disagree with all kinds of mechanisms to swap national sides based upon residency. 

One’s eligibility to play for a national side should be based on place of birth or parents birth IMO. 

I think that is too harsh though. Look at someone like Marc Guehi, born in the Ivory Coast but moved here with his parents when he was only 1. So he has pretty much lived all his life here and would consider himself English.

That said i do think FIFA should change the limit for naturalisation from the current 5 years. Currently it allows countries like Qatar and UAE to have random Brazilians playing for them after a few years in their league which i think is stupid. But i think if it was extended to say 10-15 years it will likely prevent that, but at the same time still allow players who've lived in that country since they were a child to be eligible.

SELR_addicks

Stu_of_Kunming said:

Rice should absolutely have the right to choose between England and Ireland, based on birthplace and family, but once he had that first senior cap, that should be that. 

Depends really, if a 16 year old is rushed through to get their first cap for a minor Nation before they had the chance to fully think through their choice, I think it's fair that you can change up to your 18th birthday. 

Once you're 18 though? That's your choice. 

Stu_of_Kunming

SELR_addicks said:

Stu_of_Kunming said:

Rice should absolutely have the right to choose between England and Ireland, based on birthplace and family, but once he had that first senior cap, that should be that. 

Depends really, if a 16 year old is rushed through to get their first cap for a minor Nation before they had the chance to fully think through their choice, I think it's fair that you can change up to your 18th birthday. 

Once you're 18 though? That's your choice. 

Also seems reasonable.

As does @chr@Chris_from_Sidcup's suggestion.

NornIrishAddick

SELR_addicks said:

Stu_of_Kunming said:

Rice should absolutely have the right to choose between England and Ireland, based on birthplace and family, but once he had that first senior cap, that should be that. 

Depends really, if a 16 year old is rushed through to get their first cap for a minor Nation before they had the chance to fully think through their choice, I think it's fair that you can change up to your 18th birthday. 

Once you're 18 though? That's your choice. 

All that will do will be to replicate the position of smaller clubs with talented youth players (which may have some resonance for us) find themselves in when Premier League academies come sniffing around.  There are plenty of players who switch countries, get a cap or two and are never seen again in an international shirt, who would have been regular internationals if they hadn't switched.  

And, if you are interested in the strength of the game as a whole, you would think that the lower ranked countries should be supported in improving their standards, not held back (something I feel should also be the case in both rugby and cricket where hoovering up talent is fairly common).

Maybe if the change of allegiance had a financial cost (a lump sum per player and additional payments based on tournament paid by the national side selecting the player) it would be more equitable.

And it would reduce the number of speculative switches that bigger nations seem to encourage.

With both Grealish and Rice it is the manner of the switch, not that they chose to play for England, that is the issue - while Irish fans would have loved the equally qualified Harry Kane to have played for Ireland, he is one of many eligible footballers who have represented England without any noticeable bad feeling.  If players could switch after playing at senior level the position in football worldwide would be just poisonous.

As an aside, I will highlight how it is not a particular England-Ireland issue, it's massive in France/Belgium and the French-speaking world.

ElfsborgAddick

ValleyGary said:

Hope we spank the wankers.

At the same time, this summer dented my affection for the England national team, so I’m struggling to get excited for it, especially when Charlton are playing today

Club before country every time.

Stu_of_Kunming

NornIrishAddick said:

SELR_addicks said:

Stu_of_Kunming said:

Rice should absolutely have the right to choose between England and Ireland, based on birthplace and family, but once he had that first senior cap, that should be that. 

Depends really, if a 16 year old is rushed through to get their first cap for a minor Nation before they had the chance to fully think through their choice, I think it's fair that you can change up to your 18th birthday. 

Once you're 18 though? That's your choice. 

All that will do will be to replicate the position of smaller clubs with talented youth players (which may have some resonance for us) find themselves in when Premier League academies come sniffing around.  There are plenty of players who switch countries, get a cap or two and are never seen again in an international shirt, who would have been regular internationals if they hadn't switched.  

And, if you are interested in the strength of the game as a whole, you would think that the lower ranked countries should be supported in improving their standards, not held back (something I feel should also be the case in both rugby and cricket where hoovering up talent is fairly common).

Maybe if the change of allegiance had a financial cost (a lump sum per player and additional payments based on tournament paid by the national side selecting the player) it would be more equitable.

And it would reduce the number of speculative switches that bigger nations seem to encourage.

With both Grealish and Rice it is the manner of the switch, not that they chose to play for England, that is the issue - while Irish fans would have loved the equally qualified Harry Kane to have played for Ireland, he is one of many eligible footballers who have represented England without any noticeable bad feeling.  If players could switch after playing at senior level the position in football worldwide would be just poisonous.

As an aside, I will highlight how it is not a particular England-Ireland issue, it's massive in France/Belgium and the French-speaking world.

Even if it means bankrupting smaller FA's when the reverse situation happens?

There was no 'manner of the switch' with Grealish, he never represented Ireland's senior team, as far as I know, just like Giggs never represented England, I didn't see any saddo's spending their hard earned on posters about him.

guinnessaddick

Mike Flanagan played one game for an England B team. (Remember them, they disappeared with B sides, B movies & B Mob). As a result he couldn’t play for another one else and missed the opportunity to play for Northern Ireland, as the rules in those days wouldn’t allow him.

cafcdave123

Stu_of_Kunming said:

NornIrishAddick said:

SELR_addicks said:

Stu_of_Kunming said:

Rice should absolutely have the right to choose between England and Ireland, based on birthplace and family, but once he had that first senior cap, that should be that. 

Depends really, if a 16 year old is rushed through to get their first cap for a minor Nation before they had the chance to fully think through their choice, I think it's fair that you can change up to your 18th birthday. 

Once you're 18 though? That's your choice. 

All that will do will be to replicate the position of smaller clubs with talented youth players (which may have some resonance for us) find themselves in when Premier League academies come sniffing around.  There are plenty of players who switch countries, get a cap or two and are never seen again in an international shirt, who would have been regular internationals if they hadn't switched.  

And, if you are interested in the strength of the game as a whole, you would think that the lower ranked countries should be supported in improving their standards, not held back (something I feel should also be the case in both rugby and cricket where hoovering up talent is fairly common).

Maybe if the change of allegiance had a financial cost (a lump sum per player and additional payments based on tournament paid by the national side selecting the player) it would be more equitable.

And it would reduce the number of speculative switches that bigger nations seem to encourage.

With both Grealish and Rice it is the manner of the switch, not that they chose to play for England, that is the issue - while Irish fans would have loved the equally qualified Harry Kane to have played for Ireland, he is one of many eligible footballers who have represented England without any noticeable bad feeling.  If players could switch after playing at senior level the position in football worldwide would be just poisonous.

As an aside, I will highlight how it is not a particular England-Ireland issue, it's massive in France/Belgium and the French-speaking world.

Even if it means bankrupting smaller FA's when the reverse situation happens?

There was no 'manner of the switch' with Grealish, he never represented Ireland's senior team, as far as I know, just like Giggs never represented England, I didn't see any saddo's spending their hard earned on posters about him.

Giggs only played for England school boys as he went to school in England and was only allowed to play for them, he wasn’t eligible to play for England at senior level.

ValleyGary

I didn’t know people were so passionate about it all, or is it when it only benefits England?

Shame.

Stu_of_Kunming

ValleyGary said:

I didn’t know people were so passionate about it all, or is it when it only benefits England?

Shame.

Hate us cos they ain't us.

ValleyGary

ElfsborgAddick said:

ValleyGary said:

Hope we spank the wankers.

At the same time, this summer dented my affection for the England national team, so I’m struggling to get excited for it, especially when Charlton are playing today

Club before country every time.

So you keep telling us…..on international football threads.

CAFCTrev

Stu_of_Kunming said:

ValleyGary said:

I didn’t know people were so passionate about it all, or is it when it only benefits England?

Shame.

Hate us cos they ain't us.

Hate us coz they anus?

seth plum

This is an interesting article that discusses ‘patriotism’ and identity and division.
Quite a long and gently demanding read. It is not anti English but touches on the subject mainly in the domestic context.
It mentions that in hard times a kind of aggressive patriotism, and a depressing degree of division emerges.
The starting point is the quote from the great English man Samuel Johnson ‘patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel’.


https://medium.com/@nickduffell/last-refuge-of-a-scoundrel-823997a32a2a#:~:text=On%20the%20evening%20of%20April%207%2C%201775%2C,last%20refuge%20of%20a%20scoundrel%2C%E2%80%9D%20he%20was

JustFloydRoad

Callumcafc said:

Have to say Carsley handled the question about Mason Greenwood very well. 

Glad that our national team has standards and morals. Would be far more upset over a Mason Greenwood call up than I will be by this anthem singingnon-story.

Update: Greenwood made it clear he wouldn't be considered for selection again, ending his hopes of adding to his one cap which he earned back in 2020.

Greenwood has now turned to Jamaica and completed the necessary paperwork so that he can be picked by the Jamaican manager, former United assistant manager Steve McClaren, who is now in charge. He qualifies for the Caribbean nation through his father, who was born in Jamaica.