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Bumped off a flight - background advice, please

It's my sister-in-law, supposed to fly back to Sao Paulo yesterday from Gatwick via Madrid. BA/Iberia ticket. Over-booking situation, she and 4 others booted off - no request for volunteers, just kicked off and told to piss off. My brother went down there and they have stayed overnight in the Premier Inn. But the main thing now is, she does not know when and how they will contact her re how they will now fly her.

We understand the basics of compensation to which she is clearly entitled the max £520 (By the way, Martin Lewis of MSE ...every country should have someone like him, and they don't). And we understand there is no rush to get the complaint in. But my main question is about what seems to me to be extra levels of negligence, and I wonder if others have previous experience which may help:

- my brother thinks they knew 24 hrs in advance the plane was full, as they could not reserve her seat on the Iberia Express flight to Madrid, yet could for Sao Paulo leg
- she was there 3hours before, and when she got her boarding pass it was stamped "Stand-by". There was no attempt to seek volunteers to be off-loaded. They just selected her and 4 others
- 3 of the 5 bumped were only going to Madrid, but she and one other had a connection. Why pick on someone with a connection when most are just going Madrid? And what happened to the search for volunteers? I though that was still common practice at least with BA
- she was not offered vouchers for any food or drink, let alone help with accommodation
- nobody has told her when and how they will contact her with next steps. I am trying now to assist via BA Twitter DM, but I'm waiting half hour and still not logged into a real person. Of course they will tell me they need to deal with her, and she is now setting up a Twitter account for just that, but at the least they can tell me how and when they will contact her.

So anyone with relevant experience and advice, I'd like to hear from you. Cheers.
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Comments

  • edited December 2023
    I’d only add that to the point about knowing it was full is, as I understand, the standard business model of most if not all carriers. They rely on no-shows because invariably it is always true.

    Unless I am mistaken / it’s a myth. 
  • I’d only add that to the point about knowing it was full is, as I understand, the standard business model of most if not all carriers. They rely on no-shows because invariably it is always true.

    Unless I am mistaken / it’s a myth. 
    No, you are right, and Martin Lewis says exactly that on his excellent page (covers compensation for all the situations)


  • seth plum said:
    My only suggestion is to make a note of everything with as much detail as possible. Even better if exchanges can be recorded or filmed. Especially get actual names (like the name of the person who said you couldn’t travel).
    Photographs and suchlike.
    If it were me I would have tried to board, or get through barriers until I was physically stopped, filming on my telephone all the time.
    The thing is, she of course had hold luggage, and they had accepted it. They had to retrieve it and escort her back through passport control. So she's already been "physically stopped". What she did not have is an allocated seat on the flight, so "trying to board" wasn't an option. 
  • seth plum said:
    seth plum said:
    My only suggestion is to make a note of everything with as much detail as possible. Even better if exchanges can be recorded or filmed. Especially get actual names (like the name of the person who said you couldn’t travel).
    Photographs and suchlike.
    If it were me I would have tried to board, or get through barriers until I was physically stopped, filming on my telephone all the time.
    Followed by your arrest, potential prosecution and being placed on the no fly list by the airline...
    Yeah, and so what?
    please please do it...
    The planets need to align for that to happen.
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  • Did your SIL book directly with the airline or through an agent? It's not a key point but worth understanding.

    Airlines have a pretty robust algorithm around load factor and will overbook by a % based on the stats that demonstrate no-shows (you'd be surprised how many simply don't turn up for flights - it's more prevalent on business routes rather than leisure routes). 

    Your SIL will be entitled to compensation under UK261 (EU legislation adopted in full by the UK). In addition, the airline is obliged to provide reasonable accommodation and welfare costs and get them on the next available flight. They should have been provided with all relevant information at the point they were informed of the decision - if this wasn't done then the airline has not fulfilled its obligations. The airline, may of course, at its discretion, go over and above by way of discretionary compensation.

    I wouldn't try and second guess or argue as to why the selection of passengers was made - its irrelevant and won't change anything. Stick to the facts and the legal position and challenge for additional based on the communication process.

    Of course, the first objective it to be able to discuss this with the airline...
    Great advice, thanks. Yes, she has booked directly on ba.com . 

    They got through to customer services on the phone and were told to return to the airport and contact "the airline". Therein lies another problem. They were not aware that BA and Iberia are one company, and yesterday she encountered some "not my problem, guv" between the two. I've told my brother that if they get that again he should stay calm and politely ask if the person would repeat the answer so it can be recorded on his phone -and also take the person's name. 

    I have been aware of the airlines' general practice of over-booking to combat no-show, however when I have come across it on my own flights, at least on BA there was a clear visible effort to find volunteers for bumping, with equally visible compensation on offer. This did not happen at all on her flight yesterday. 
  • edited December 2023
    Did your SIL book directly with the airline or through an agent? It's not a key point but worth understanding.

    Airlines have a pretty robust algorithm around load factor and will overbook by a % based on the stats that demonstrate no-shows (you'd be surprised how many simply don't turn up for flights - it's more prevalent on business routes rather than leisure routes). 

    Your SIL will be entitled to compensation under UK261 (EU legislation adopted in full by the UK). In addition, the airline is obliged to provide reasonable accommodation and welfare costs and get them on the next available flight. They should have been provided with all relevant information at the point they were informed of the decision - if this wasn't done then the airline has not fulfilled its obligations. The airline, may of course, at its discretion, go over and above by way of discretionary compensation.

    I wouldn't try and second guess or argue as to why the selection of passengers was made - its irrelevant and won't change anything. Stick to the facts and the legal position and challenge for additional based on the communication process.

    Of course, the first objective it to be able to discuss this with the airline...
    Great advice, thanks. Yes, she has booked directly on ba.com . 

    They got through to customer services on the phone and were told to return to the airport and contact "the airline". Therein lies another problem. They were not aware that BA and Iberia are one company, and yesterday she encountered some "not my problem, guv" between the two. I've told my brother that if they get that again he should stay calm and politely ask if the person would repeat the answer so it can be recorded on his phone -and also take the person's name. 

    I have been aware of the airlines' general practice of over-booking to combat no-show, however when I have come across it on my own flights, at least on BA there was a clear visible effort to find volunteers for bumping, with equally visible compensation on offer. This did not happen at all on her flight yesterday. 

    OK so although "booked with" BA, both flights were being operated by Iberia? In which case you need to be in contact with the operating company (Iberia) not the marketing company (BA)...It's Iberia that are responsible for the "bump" and will be the liable company for UK261, replacement flights and welfare costs...I'm afraid chasing BA will get you nowhere and you need to redirect your efforts.


    *Edit, although both are part of IAG as a parent company, for the purposes of what you are doing they are two separate companies operating a codeshare (eg American are not part of IAG but operate codeshares with BA - codeshare has nothing to do with ultimate ownership).
  • Also send an email directly to the BA CEO Sean Doyle his Customer services act promptly. 
  • Hang on, though @SporadicAddick

    she has a return flight bought on ba.com and selected from several options, and her return flight is direct and with BA. Surely therefore her legal contract is with BA?
  • Hang on, though @SporadicAddick

    she has a return flight bought on ba.com and selected from several options, and her return flight is direct and with BA. Surely therefore her legal contract is with BA?
    It's down to the operating company on the specific leg.
     - an issue on the outbound flying with Iberia - Iberia are liable. 
     - an issue on the return leg flying with BA - BA are liable.

    This is where it gets a bit complex - when its delay related (the aircraft operated, just without you), it's the operating airline (Iberia). When its a cancellation (the flight didn't take place), it's the marketing airline (BA).

    When your sister checked-in (either on line or at the airport) it would have been with Iberia and all documentation will have stated "operated by Iberia". That's who you need to pursue.

    I should add at this point I am not an employee of an airline or associated company, nor am I legally trained in the vagaries of flight delays...

  • Hang on, though @SporadicAddick

    she has a return flight bought on ba.com and selected from several options, and her return flight is direct and with BA. Surely therefore her legal contract is with BA?
    Having helped a friend deal with a similar problem a few years ago, I don’t think you’re right, the return flight is irrelevant.
  • edited December 2023
    Update and good news.

    At the airport they were directed to a help-desk which according to my brother is not airline specific- the people manning this desk were clear about that. There was a Brazilian lady manning it whom SIL had already spoken to by phone. She initially said that the same Iberia flight as yesterday had one spare seat for today, but she worried that the same thing might happen. Then she looked further and said "I think I can re-book you on a BA flight direct to Sao Paulo (or maybe it was Rio) from Heathrow", adding "I hope I won't get into trouble for this". So she's now heading for Heathrow, and crucially the lady at LGW was able to print her boarding pass for her there and then.

    I'd still like to get the text that she is actually sitting on the plane, but looks like she is OK - but possibly only because a fellow Brazilian apparently bent some rules. Which is..not great overall.

    We'll get her there and then start on the compensation exercise. But that raises the question, to which airline should the claim be addressed? I'll look into that with MSE etc.

  • Update and good news.

    At the airport they were directed to a help-desk which according to my brother is not airline specific- the people manning this desk were clear about that. There was a Brazilian lady manning it whom SIL had already spoken to by phone. She initially said that the same Iberia flight as yesterday had one spare seat for today, but she worried that the same thing might happen. Then she looked further and said "I think I can re-book you on a BA flight direct to Sao Paulo (or maybe it was Rio) from Heathrow", adding "I hope I won't get into trouble for this". So she's now heading for Heathrow, and crucially the lady at LGW was able to print her boarding pass for her there and then.

    I'd still like to get the text that she is actually sitting on the plane, but looks like she is OK - but possibly only because a fellow Brazilian apparently bent some rules. Which is..not great overall.

    We'll get her there and then start on the compensation exercise. But that raises the question, to which airline should the claim be addressed? I'll look into that with MSE etc.

    Iberia
  • Surprised i'm not on a BA no fly list with the amount of claims i've made against them over the years!

    Sporadic Addick has already said what i was going to (i was worried about EU261 post Brexit!)

    Keep receipts as in addition to the €600 EU261compensation (over 4 hour delay) they are entitled to overnight accommodation, transportation to and from there to the airport, any meals they have before the flight and if they don't have their bags toiletries. I assume they're on another flight?

    If BA offer avios or cash ( the EU261 will be cash by law) value the avios at 1p a piece to make a judgement.

    There's a form they can fill in and upload receipts on BA.com. i've had the money in my account within 2 weeks before.
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  • Surprised i'm not on a BA no fly list with the amount of claims i've made against them over the years!

    Sporadic Addick has already said what i was going to (i was worried about EU261 post Brexit!)

    Keep receipts as in addition to the €600 EU261compensation (over 4 hour delay) they are entitled to overnight accommodation, transportation to and from there to the airport, any meals they have before the flight and if they don't have their bags toiletries. I assume they're on another flight?

    If BA offer avios or cash ( the EU261 will be cash by law) value the avios at 1p a piece to make a judgement.

    There's a form they can fill in and upload receipts on BA.com. i've had the money in my account within 2 weeks before.
    Just to reiterate, Iberia is liable in this case, not BA…
  • Surprised i'm not on a BA no fly list with the amount of claims i've made against them over the years!

    Sporadic Addick has already said what i was going to (i was worried about EU261 post Brexit!)

    Keep receipts as in addition to the €600 EU261compensation (over 4 hour delay) they are entitled to overnight accommodation, transportation to and from there to the airport, any meals they have before the flight and if they don't have their bags toiletries. I assume they're on another flight?

    If BA offer avios or cash ( the EU261 will be cash by law) value the avios at 1p a piece to make a judgement.

    There's a form they can fill in and upload receipts on BA.com. i've had the money in my account within 2 weeks before.
    Just to reiterate, Iberia is liable in this case, not BA…
    Yes, that's what MSE confirms:

    Remember, it's the operator of the flight, rather than the firm you booked with, which is responsible when things go wrong. So if you booked a ticket via Qantas, but were on a British Airways plane, then its British Airways that's responsible if anything goes wrong.

    I still wonder about that in the context of basic contract law, but I suppose the answer is it's not about basic contract law, rather that these are the conditions and processes agreed with all the airlines for this compensation scheme to work effectively.

    And thank heavens the UK's involvement in it somehow survived Rees-Mogg's "bonfire of EU regulations".
  • Surprised i'm not on a BA no fly list with the amount of claims i've made against them over the years!

    Sporadic Addick has already said what i was going to (i was worried about EU261 post Brexit!)

    Keep receipts as in addition to the €600 EU261compensation (over 4 hour delay) they are entitled to overnight accommodation, transportation to and from there to the airport, any meals they have before the flight and if they don't have their bags toiletries. I assume they're on another flight?

    If BA offer avios or cash ( the EU261 will be cash by law) value the avios at 1p a piece to make a judgement.

    There's a form they can fill in and upload receipts on BA.com. i've had the money in my account within 2 weeks before.
    Just to reiterate, Iberia is liable in this case, not BA…
    Yes, that's what MSE confirms:

    Remember, it's the operator of the flight, rather than the firm you booked with, which is responsible when things go wrong. So if you booked a ticket via Qantas, but were on a British Airways plane, then its British Airways that's responsible if anything goes wrong.

    I still wonder about that in the context of basic contract law, but I suppose the answer is it's not about basic contract law, rather that these are the conditions and processes agreed with all the airlines for this compensation scheme to work effectively.

    And thank heavens the UK's involvement in it somehow survived Rees-Mogg's "bonfire of EU regulations".
    The contract is to get you from A to B. That’s why in this situation, if the flight had been cancelled, redress would have been with BA. As the flight happened but SIL was delayed, redress via statutory compensation is via the carrier…

  • edited December 2023
    Surprised i'm not on a BA no fly list with the amount of claims i've made against them over the years!

    Sporadic Addick has already said what i was going to (i was worried about EU261 post Brexit!)

    Keep receipts as in addition to the €600 EU261compensation (over 4 hour delay) they are entitled to overnight accommodation, transportation to and from there to the airport, any meals they have before the flight and if they don't have their bags toiletries. I assume they're on another flight?

    If BA offer avios or cash ( the EU261 will be cash by law) value the avios at 1p a piece to make a judgement.

    There's a form they can fill in and upload receipts on BA.com. i've had the money in my account within 2 weeks before.
    Just to reiterate, Iberia is liable in this case, not BA…
    Yes, that's what MSE confirms:

    Remember, it's the operator of the flight, rather than the firm you booked with, which is responsible when things go wrong. So if you booked a ticket via Qantas, but were on a British Airways plane, then its British Airways that's responsible if anything goes wrong.

    I still wonder about that in the context of basic contract law, but I suppose the answer is it's not about basic contract law, rather that these are the conditions and processes agreed with all the airlines for this compensation scheme to work effectively.

    And thank heavens the UK's involvement in it somehow survived Rees-Mogg's "bonfire of EU regulations".
    The contract is to get you from A to B. That’s why in this situation, if the flight had been cancelled, redress would have been with BA. As the flight happened but SIL was delayed, redress via statutory compensation is via the carrier…

    Thanks. I finally got there.  ;) or rather you got me there.
  • seth plum said:
    My only suggestion is to make a note of everything with as much detail as possible. Even better if exchanges can be recorded or filmed. Especially get actual names (like the name of the person who said you couldn’t travel).
    Photographs and suchlike.
    If it were me I would have tried to board, or get through barriers until I was physically stopped, filming on my telephone all the time.
    No one messes with our Seth
  • seth plum said:
    My only suggestion is to make a note of everything with as much detail as possible. Even better if exchanges can be recorded or filmed. Especially get actual names (like the name of the person who said you couldn’t travel).
    Photographs and suchlike.
    If it were me I would have tried to board, or get through barriers until I was physically stopped, filming on my telephone all the time.
    Proper legend. You always brighten up my day plum. Filming on my telephone 🤣
  • My experience of this was a flight from Newcastle to Gatwick many years ago. 2 check in desks. I went to one as the other was busy. My clerk got a call on his phone so a delay. Another guy had later joined the other queue and was being dealt with. My clerk put his phone down and told me I could not get on the flight. Why? Not because it was full, but because they had not put enough fuel in the plane to take me on board as well. I was very surprised they cut it so fine that they couldn't take a small guy with no luggage. I was put in a hotel and put onto a flight the next morning. Can't remember if they paid my extra parking at Gatwick or for inconvenience. 
    I was very annoyed and have generally when flying always went for Virgin so probably cost BA a lot of money as I flew a lot on business. 
  • edited December 2023
    redman said:
    My experience of this was a flight from Newcastle to Gatwick many years ago. 2 check in desks. I went to one as the other was busy. My clerk got a call on his phone so a delay. Another guy had later joined the other queue and was being dealt with. My clerk put his phone down and told me I could not get on the flight. Why? Not because it was full, but because they had not put enough fuel in the plane to take me on board as well. I was very surprised they cut it so fine that they couldn't take a small guy with no luggage. I was put in a hotel and put onto a flight the next morning. Can't remember if they paid my extra parking at Gatwick or for inconvenience. 
    I was very annoyed and have generally when flying always went for Virgin so probably cost BA a lot of money as I flew a lot on business. 
    Annoyed?  I would have been furious.  Imagine having to spend one more day than necessary in Newcastle!
  • @PragueAddick you've had lots of sensible, useful advice on this thread and it's good to see that your SIL appears to have been sorted out with a good flight.  I would like to offer one extra bit of advice that, although it won't help this time, should make things a whole lot easier when booking flights in future: use a competent travel agent, instead of going direct to an airline. 
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