Player Contracts

lancashire lad

For the majority of those of us in paid employment we have a contract and if we do not perform to the contract our employer has the right to institute disciplinary procedures and if necessary eventually the termination of our contract

Why not professional footballers?

ShootersHillGuru

lancashire lad said:

For the majority of those of us in paid employment we have a contract and if we do not perform to the contract our employer has the right to institute disciplinary procedures and if necessary eventually the termination of our contract

Why not professional footballers?

It’s just too subjective to make it stick.

GetYerCoreyOut

I've been saying this for a while now, instead they seem to implement performance clauses into contracts.

North Lower Neil

lancashire lad said:

For the majority of those of us in paid employment we have a contract and if we do not perform to the contract our employer has the right to institute disciplinary procedures and if necessary eventually the termination of our contract

Why not professional footballers?

I'd guess their contract doesn't/can't legally have a minimum level of on pitch performance anyway, and as SHG says, it's subjective anyway beyond amount of goals scored or whatever.

If they don't turn up to training, punch a colleague, do anything illegal etc etc then the same gross misconduct rules apply as anywhere else (although we all know whether they're invoked depends how useful/valuable the player is).

killerandflash

lancashire lad said:

For the majority of those of us in paid employment we have a contract and if we do not perform to the contract our employer has the right to institute disciplinary procedures and if necessary eventually the termination of our contract

Why not professional footballers?

But that's not true really. You can't be terminated from normal employment for just being a bit poor at your job. Disciplinary action can only really be instigated if you do something actively wrong.

Dazzler21

North Lower Neil said:

lancashire lad said:

For the majority of those of us in paid employment we have a contract and if we do not perform to the contract our employer has the right to institute disciplinary procedures and if necessary eventually the termination of our contract

Why not professional footballers?

I'd guess their contract doesn't/can't legally have a minimum level of on pitch performance anyway, and as SHG says, it's subjective anyway beyond amount of goals scored or whatever.

If they don't turn up to training, punch a colleague, do anything illegal etc etc then the same gross misconduct rules apply as anywhere else (although we all know whether they're invoked depends how useful/valuable the player is).

Marcus Maddison enters the chat

Dazzler21

killerandflash said:

lancashire lad said:

For the majority of those of us in paid employment we have a contract and if we do not perform to the contract our employer has the right to institute disciplinary procedures and if necessary eventually the termination of our contract

Why not professional footballers?

But that's not true really. You can't be terminated from normal employment for just being a bit poor at your job. Disciplinary action can only really be instigated if you do something actively wrong.

As a contractor I can be more easily terminated from a placement. Footballers should be handled in a similar way. 

lancashire lad

killerandflash said:

lancashire lad said:

For the majority of those of us in paid employment we have a contract and if we do not perform to the contract our employer has the right to institute disciplinary procedures and if necessary eventually the termination of our contract

Why not professional footballers?

But that's not true really. You can't be terminated from normal employment for just being a bit poor at your job. Disciplinary action can only really be instigated if you do something actively wrong.

not true when I was a HR Director but you had to be clever as to how you went about it, but it was possible.

bobmunro

killerandflash said:

lancashire lad said:

For the majority of those of us in paid employment we have a contract and if we do not perform to the contract our employer has the right to institute disciplinary procedures and if necessary eventually the termination of our contract

Why not professional footballers?

But that's not true really. You can't be terminated from normal employment for just being a bit poor at your job. Disciplinary action can only really be instigated if you do something actively wrong.

Yes you can if there is no improvement following a formal capability process.

killerandflash

Dazzler21 said:

killerandflash said:

lancashire lad said:

For the majority of those of us in paid employment we have a contract and if we do not perform to the contract our employer has the right to institute disciplinary procedures and if necessary eventually the termination of our contract

Why not professional footballers?

But that's not true really. You can't be terminated from normal employment for just being a bit poor at your job. Disciplinary action can only really be instigated if you do something actively wrong.

As a contractor I can be more easily terminated from a placement. Footballers should be handled in a similar way. 

Football is different though. In the same ways you can't just cancel the contract of a signing because they're terrible, the player similarly can't just walk away if the club doesn't live up to what he was told.

ShootersHillGuru

killerandflash said:

lancashire lad said:

For the majority of those of us in paid employment we have a contract and if we do not perform to the contract our employer has the right to institute disciplinary procedures and if necessary eventually the termination of our contract

Why not professional footballers?

But that's not true really. You can't be terminated from normal employment for just being a bit poor at your job. Disciplinary action can only really be instigated if you do something actively wrong.

Well that’s not strictly true either. If you’re perceived not to be performing your duties to an acceptable standard then performance reviews can be put in place. Certainly it’s not a direct route to termination of employment but should put in place support and training packages but ultimately failing a properly carried out performance review can lead to dismissal.

killerandflash

ShootersHillGuru said:

killerandflash said:

lancashire lad said:

For the majority of those of us in paid employment we have a contract and if we do not perform to the contract our employer has the right to institute disciplinary procedures and if necessary eventually the termination of our contract

Why not professional footballers?

But that's not true really. You can't be terminated from normal employment for just being a bit poor at your job. Disciplinary action can only really be instigated if you do something actively wrong.

Well that’s not strictly true either. If you’re perceived not to be performing your duties to an acceptable standard then performance reviews can be put in place. Certainly it’s not a direct route to termination of employment but should put in place support and training packages but ultimately failing a properly carried out performance review can lead to dismissal.

How do you define that in terms of a footballer though? You can't sack a striker because they keep missing chances, or a goalkeeper because they keep letting in soft goals. Or sack a player because they pull out of tackles or don't chase back.

Football has its own rules. You wouldn't be fined 2 weeks wages if you turned up late for work or looked at your phone at lunchtime, for example.

bobmunro

killerandflash said:

ShootersHillGuru said:

killerandflash said:

lancashire lad said:

For the majority of those of us in paid employment we have a contract and if we do not perform to the contract our employer has the right to institute disciplinary procedures and if necessary eventually the termination of our contract

Why not professional footballers?

But that's not true really. You can't be terminated from normal employment for just being a bit poor at your job. Disciplinary action can only really be instigated if you do something actively wrong.

Well that’s not strictly true either. If you’re perceived not to be performing your duties to an acceptable standard then performance reviews can be put in place. Certainly it’s not a direct route to termination of employment but should put in place support and training packages but ultimately failing a properly carried out performance review can lead to dismissal.

How do you define that in terms of a footballer though? You can't sack a striker because they keep missing chances, or a goalkeeper because they keep letting in soft goals. Or sack a player because they pull out of tackles or don't chase back.

Football has its own rules. You wouldn't be fined 2 weeks wages if you turned up late for work or looked at your phone at lunchtime, for example.

I think both Shooters and I were referring to your assertion that you can't be terminated from normal employment for just being a bit poor at your job.

I think we can all agree that it is very difficult to apply that in a football setting.

Todds_right_hook

lancashire lad said:

For the majority of those of us in paid employment we have a contract and if we do not perform to the contract our employer has the right to institute disciplinary procedures and if necessary eventually the termination of our contract

Why not professional footballers?

Because we wouldn't have any players left

soapboxsam

Bob Munro is one of the experts on CL to do with Employment law so I won't get involved with that but would like to jog your memory on a certain Winston Bogarde:

Now up to the year 2000, the Dutch player had been decent and at 29 years old got a move to Chelsea on a four year contract on 40k a week ! This was 23 years ago and it was a mega wage. 

The only thing was the laid back player was so poor he only played 12 matches in 4 years of his contract; 11 apps in his first season, none in his 2nd, 1 in his 3rd and zero in his 4th. He was booted out of the 1st team squad and trained with the youth team or on his own for at least half of his time during the 4 years.
I can only imagine he was a good time keeper or else disciplinary procedures would've kicked in ?

Winston Bogarde was one of the first Mercenaries to take advantage of the Bosman ruling of 1995 but there are many since as squads at premier clubs get bigger.

Sancho at Man utd has been frozen out as the manager didn't feel he was training well and then criticized Ten Hag in the media.
Surprised that hasn't been sorted out with an intermediary.

Manic_mania

Isn't Harry Arter still on big money at Notts F at this point despite not playing for them for years just to use a more modern example

Karim_myBagheri

Our players should have their contracts under threat as soon as their average on the statbank drops below 6. 

tangoflash

Kirk would have to draw dole money since he's been down here if his wage was performance based

Callumcafc

lancashire lad said:

For the majority of those of us in paid employment we have a contract and if we do not perform to the contract our employer has the right to institute disciplinary procedures and if necessary eventually the termination of our contract

Why not professional footballers?

Imagine the contract clause:

”If at any point, your performance in any match is rated 4.0 or below by the CharltonLife Statbank, the club reserves the right to terminate this contract with immediate effect.”

North Lower Neil

soapboxsam said:

Bob Munro is one of the experts on CL to do with Employment law so I won't get involved with that but would like to jog your memory on a certain Winston Bogarde:

Now up to the year 2000, the Dutch player had been decent and at 29 years old got a move to Chelsea on a four year contract on 40k a week ! This was 23 years ago and it was a mega wage. 

The only thing was the laid back player was so poor he only played 12 matches in 4 years of his contract; 11 apps in his first season, none in his 2nd, 1 in his 3rd and zero in his 4th. He was booted out of the 1st team squad and trained with the youth team or on his own for at least half of his time during the 4 years.
I can only imagine he was a good time keeper or else disciplinary procedures would've kicked in ?

Winston Bogarde was one of the first Mercenaries to take advantage of the Bosman ruling of 1995 but there are many since as squads at premier clubs get bigger.

Sancho at Man utd has been frozen out as the manager didn't feel he was training well and then criticized Ten Hag in the media.
Surprised that hasn't been sorted out with an intermediary.

Yep, turned up every day on time etx, trained with whatever youth team, on his own etc like he was told.

Basically you're going to pay me millions if I do that and I'm going to make sure I don't give you an excuse to get rid.  Nothing wrong with that either, they offered the contract.

Contrast that with Jimmy Bullard who I think gave Hull an excuse to get his £55k a week wages off the book through disciplinary issues.

Bailey

We did indirectly instigate punitive action on our players contracts under Sandgaard. By winning very few games, we denied them all those lovely win bonuses, that'll teach the no-good slackers.  

seth plum

Simple.
Base the performance(s) target(s) on @lancashire lad’s statbank marks on Charlton Life
Any player with an average mark under six for four consecutive games gets a warning, do it again and contract terminated.

jonseventyfive

There'd be nobody left to play.

Chunes

Players talk about how clubs track their stats these days and how if they don't run X km per game with Y amount of sprints, they get an earful. You'd think at least these could be clauses because they're objective statistics. 

DamoNorthStand

Like a previous poster said - you can't have your cake and eat it. If we don't like our job, then its simple - find a new one. Work your notice of 1-6 months or whatever, and you're free to leave. Do your own thing. Start your own business. Whatever.

If you want the ability to sack players, then you need to let them leave when they want us well.

We would have been fucked at times over the years.

Chunes

DamoNorthStand said:

If you want the ability to sack players, then you need to let them leave when they want us well.

Why would it have to work that way? Not sure how they are they connected. The club isn't getting rid of the player went it wants, it's a performance-based clause. Some players already have this option in reverse, e.g. they have a clause where they can leave the club based on ITS performance when it's relegated. 

DamoNorthStand

Chunes said:

DamoNorthStand said:

If you want the ability to sack players, then you need to let them leave when they want us well.

Why would it have to work that way? Not sure how they are they connected. The club isn't getting rid of the player went it wants, it's a performance-based clause. Some players already have this option in reverse, e.g. they have a clause where they can leave the club based on ITS performance when it's relegated. 

The original post linked it to the way we are all judged in jobs. If players dont have the protection of a contract anymore in the instance they make a mistake a work / underperform - then it stands to reason that they would expect more flexibility and freedom to work where they want.

Making it more like a traditional job would surely work both ways.

Callumcafc

Chunes said:

DamoNorthStand said:

If you want the ability to sack players, then you need to let them leave when they want us well.

Why would it have to work that way? Not sure how they are they connected. The club isn't getting rid of the player went it wants, it's a performance-based clause. Some players already have this option in reverse, e.g. they have a clause where they can leave the club based on ITS performance when it's relegated. 

Player power would mean you'd never sign anyone decent with that kind of clause in a contract. It happens in reverse because clubs are generally the desperate ones, not the other way around.

I imagine the PFA wouldn't be very happy about it either...

Gillis

One other element that gets overlooked when comparing being a professional footballer to an ordinary job is that we aren't all assets that our employers can buy and sell.

blackpool72

The problem lies with whoever gives poor injury prone players long contracts. 
Can't blame the players for accepting them.