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23/24 Tactics Thread

edited August 2023 in General Charlton
Thought it might be a good idea to start a tactics thread (I couldn't see an open one) for the new season. 

For what it's worth I'd like to see a shift from the 3-5-2 into more of a 3-4-2-1 if he's going to persist with 3 at the back.
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Comments

  • Who would you like to see in the front three? Do you think May would do well playing up front on his own?
  • Who would you like to see in the front three? Do you think May would do well playing up front on his own?
    I'd like 2 playing just behind May. Probably CBT to pull wide and Fraser to stay a bit more centrally. Potentially Kirk could be good floating around but he's quite hit and miss
  • We will play a 3-5-2 in most games, we may switch to 4-3-3 sometimes when it isn't working.
  • Promotion needs to be built upon a solid defensive foundation, which, over the past couple of seasons, just hasn't been there. Defensively, I think we've been pretty weak, even under Holden - his record as manager has seen us concede as many as we've scored. It's still an area of concern after the Aberdeen game and somewhere we need to find some level of stability (and quickly) within the first ten games of the season.

    I'd prefer the stability of 4 at the back but I suspect it's more likely to be a 3. With Dobson (plus Taylor or maybe McGrandles) in midfield, there's some level of insurance there, but having defensive fullbacks rather than square peg wingbacks is what I prefer. Hector + Jones seems likely, then with either Thomas or Mitchell that forms part of a 3. Dobson has been used to playing very close to the two CBs, so he's regularly the insurance policy. As for the wider players - forcing C-BT to try and defend won't work. Teams will target him defensively and we could get pulled apart by anyone decent. WBs will need lots of fitness and gas in the tank to run a lot, and I just don't see CB-T being able to do that all season. Having 3 at the back will, imo, make us vulnerable with the way our WBs would play.

    I think we'll go 3-5-2 for the first game like this:

                                   AMB
                     Jones - Hector - Thomas
    Asiimwe - Dobson - Fraser - Anderson - CB-T
                           May - Campbell

    However, I would prefer a subtly different 4-1-3-2:

                         AMB
    Asiimwe - Jones - Hector - Egbo
                      Dobson
         Anderson - Fraser - CB-T
                May - Campbell

    Having a out-and-out full back to cover for CB-T in the form of Egbo allows CB-T the freedom to worry less about defending. I feel Camara isn't ready yet, so let Anderson play. Other new signings could slowly be worked in as required to get minutes. Leaburn to eventually slot in up front next to May. Hoping that we could still get a solid Prem loan deal to fit the gap up front or potentially as a WB. Maybe we still get Sess through the door, but not sure why that hasn't happened if it was going to.
  • We will play a 3-5-2 in most games, we may switch to 4-3-3 sometimes when it isn't working.
    As has been discussed elsewhere, I do fear that we are forcing our team to play a formation that the current squad doesn't suit. We're very thin in WBs and strikers to play 3-5-2 as well as Left sided CBs to accommodate the main 3 at the back. I know business isn't over yet but with a month left I'm not sure we'll bolster our squad enough to make the formation viable for this squad long term.
  • I actually don't mind CBT at LWB in theory. If we had a solid back three that shifted across with the RWB hanging back  to create a 4 then we'd be fine. The issue is that we don't have a LCB who could do that well enough
  • I think the team will end up as:

    Isted/AMB

    Jones
    Hector
    Deji 

    NEW
    Camara
    Dobson
    Fraser
    Edun 

    Leaburn/NEW
    May 

    Once we have those gaps filled I think that is a team that suits 3-5-2. Hopefully the new wing back can be one that covers both sides so that if Edun is injured they can play on the left if we need a better defensive option than CBT. 

    I’m still unsure on GK so will be interesting to see who gets the nod on Saturday. Obviously it might end up being Ness or Thomas instead of Deji, I just think this might be his year. Jones could end up on the left with Ness/Deji on the right also. 

    I would ideally want a new left sided CB signed but it doesn’t sound like that’s a priority at the moment. I think that could hold us back from pushing for the top 2 but if we get the other signings right I’m confident we will be top 6 
  • Ideally we could do with an Azpilicueta/Walker kind of player as one of the back 3. Someone that can play CB and also fill either the LB/RB role to allow us to switch to a 433 easier.

    I fully appreciate that it's difficult to get that type of player in League 1, so it might be a bit ambitious. However, it would make us much more adaptable.
  • So, anyone got any rumours...🙄
  • edited August 2023
    Ultimately, it's down to who that player is that would be covering for CB-T on that side. I'm not sold on him playing LWB all season, despite the potential positives.

    My suggestion of Egbo in a 4 at LB is a square peg, given he's a RB by nature, but should be able to defend. Thomas is probably the more likely option for Holden, but then, I see him more as a CB being a square peg LB. Neither option is great until Edun is back, and even then, maybe Edun fits better as LWB than CB-T.

    If we have designs on playoffs and above, the LCB role in a 3 feels key, particularly if CB-T is ever playing LWB. They'd need to be quick and athletic to cover any gaps and be solid in likely 1v1s. Mitchell is too raw right now to play in the 3, but maybe we can shuffle in Ness and get him back to his form from last season.

    4 at the back feels more stable for now, but playing 3 is probably what Holden wants for the future. Difficult to choose.
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  • My other big question is that once Edun is up to speed what happens to CBT? I doubt he's going to be happy sitting on the bench deputising in a position that isn't his best. Will we see a shift to 433 at about 60 mins with subs or maybe 433 against teams lower in the league?
  • fenaddick said:
    My other big question is that once Edun is up to speed what happens to CBT? I doubt he's going to be happy sitting on the bench deputising in a position that isn't his best. Will we see a shift to 433 at about 60 mins with subs or maybe 433 against teams lower in the league?
    I think he will be used as an attacking wing back option or as you say a sub if we change shape during games. He could start at wing back against weaker sides, or if we are needing a goal he could come on at wing back as an attacking option or come on as a winger if we changed to 4-3-3 or 4-4-2 chasing a goal 
  • edited August 2023
    fenaddick said:
    My other big question is that once Edun is up to speed what happens to CBT? I doubt he's going to be happy sitting on the bench deputising in a position that isn't his best. Will we see a shift to 433 at about 60 mins with subs or maybe 433 against teams lower in the league?
    What happens to him?  He becomes a game changer off the bench, either as an extra foward or as an a much more attacking wing back, if we are chasing a game.  He could even come on as a "striker" if we are ahead and the opposition are pushing up and leaving gaps behind. 

    He will start loads of games in different positions because we will have injuries, suspension, players that need resting.

    We will play about 60 games next season.  He will be fine.  If he isn't good enough to find a role, what ever the system, he isn't worth worrying about.

    The one I am worried about "what will happen to" is Campbell.  Do we play him, assuming we complete the squad, in the u21s as a striker?  Loan him out?  He is another that doesn't have a natural position in our current formation, but he is "one of our own" and had quite a high ceiling.  What do we do with him?


  • have to say i am not convinced 352 fits the players we currently have. obvious question marks are who plays LWB/RWB so they should be the target for the rest of the window IMO, alongside another striker. i think the wingbacks are absolutely crucial. if we can swap out kirk and dj for two quality wingbacks i think we are looking good - edun might be one of those in already. CBT is worth keeping as a wildcard but i just dont think he suits a wing back role. 
  • I worry that we’ll dick around with 3-5-2 for six to ten weeks until Holden finally accepts that we don’t have the players. Then we’ll switch to something we actually have the players to make work. 
  • se9addick said:
    I worry that we’ll dick around with 3-5-2 for six to ten weeks until Holden finally accepts that we don’t have the players. Then we’ll switch to something we actually have the players to make work. 
    We will have the players for it in the next few weeks. We signed May, who suits 3-5-2 as he needs a partner and it’s the system Cheltenham played last season. Camara has played his best football in a 3-5-2 at Plymouth. Lloyd Jones played in a 3-5-2, Edun is a wing back who played well for Lincoln in a 3-5-2. I’m guessing you can see the trend here, we are recruiting players for a 3-5-2 and will continue to do so. By the end of the month we will have the players to make it work 
  • NabySarr said:
    se9addick said:
    I worry that we’ll dick around with 3-5-2 for six to ten weeks until Holden finally accepts that we don’t have the players. Then we’ll switch to something we actually have the players to make work. 
    We will have the players for it in the next few weeks. We signed May, who suits 3-5-2 as he needs a partner and it’s the system Cheltenham played last season. Camara has played his best football in a 3-5-2 at Plymouth. Lloyd Jones played in a 3-5-2, Edun is a wing back who played well for Lincoln in a 3-5-2. I’m guessing you can see the trend here, we are recruiting players for a 3-5-2 and will continue to do so. By the end of the month we will have the players to make it work 
    Agree with this, I also think the discussion would have different tone if Leaburn was fit. We’d still need another striker but it would be less pressing. 
  • Definitely think it's going to be 352 for most of the season , even if we got an injury to a wingback I think Holden would still run with it. 

    Agree that I wouldn't be that bothered about a striker signing if Leaburn was fit. It would be a depth piece then as opposed to someone that really needs to be in the door today/tomorrow. 

    CBT as an impact sub against tiring legs is an option no opposition manager is going to want to see! Especially if you used him centrally with the workrate and cleverness of May. 


  • Yes we need a new manager and coaching team ASAP - ideally appointment is confirmed this week? On tactics Scott clearly committed to a 4-2-3-1 or 4-3-3

    On players there's a stark comparison between the good and bad: more minutes for Leaburn and Cambell x 2; Dobson shines again; Chin up and coming.

    But Kirk and Roddy are perhaps finished?! And one or two of our young centre backs might need to go out on loan. Let's see how Tedic and Abankwah work out.

    Perhaps five league games to assess the squad? The SMT will watch those too - and know that we need more quality in January.
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  • I’m not convinced we are building the squad for a 4 at the back. We have too many CB’s for that. That said we have too many wingers for a 3-5-2. I’m not sure Scott knows what the identity of the squad should be and that’s a bit worrying, the manager appointment is going to be really interesting 
  • fenaddick said:
    I’m not convinced we are building the squad for a 4 at the back. We have too many CB’s for that. That said we have too many wingers for a 3-5-2. I’m not sure Scott knows what the identity of the squad should be and that’s a bit worrying, the manager appointment is going to be really interesting 
    I think that’s only because we happen to have three young CBs coming through at the same time.
  • Scoham said:
    fenaddick said:
    I’m not convinced we are building the squad for a 4 at the back. We have too many CB’s for that. That said we have too many wingers for a 3-5-2. I’m not sure Scott knows what the identity of the squad should be and that’s a bit worrying, the manager appointment is going to be really interesting 
    I think that’s only because we happen to have three young CBs coming through at the same time.
    not much point having Ness and Elerewe around if neither of them are likely to play though. You’d imagine in a back 4 Hector, Jones & Abankwah would be the first 3 choices so at least one of them is 5th choice. They’d have been better off playing every week in League 2
  • fenaddick said:
    I’m not convinced we are building the squad for a 4 at the back. We have too many CB’s for that. That said we have too many wingers for a 3-5-2. I’m not sure Scott knows what the identity of the squad should be and that’s a bit worrying, the manager appointment is going to be really interesting 
    Scott has recruited at four Championship level clubs over the last eight years. And we have zero wing-backs so it's rational to assume that 5-3-2 not on the menu.

    Asiimwe appears to be an attacking full back but not great at crossing nor beating a man. But he's been playing with Anderson for ten years and they just find each other on the right.

    Now that we have Campbell x 2 available we have CBT at 7, Chem at 10 and Tyreece at 11. And there's May, Leaburn, Tedic and Kanu to consider so three on the bench?

    Let's see how we start vs Stevenage and how the new manager adjusts. Impossible to predict how the next five games go. After that we can discuss whether our matchday 18 and tactics are a marked improvement on Sandgaard/ Gallen / Garner.

    Fairly certain that we will need both 2024 windows to improve the squad and the SMT will need to allocate the right budgets for retaining and acquiring talent. There's a lot of players out of contract next summer.
  • fenaddick said:
    Scoham said:
    fenaddick said:
    I’m not convinced we are building the squad for a 4 at the back. We have too many CB’s for that. That said we have too many wingers for a 3-5-2. I’m not sure Scott knows what the identity of the squad should be and that’s a bit worrying, the manager appointment is going to be really interesting 
    I think that’s only because we happen to have three young CBs coming through at the same time.
    not much point having Ness and Elerewe around if neither of them are likely to play though. You’d imagine in a back 4 Hector, Jones & Abankwah would be the first 3 choices so at least one of them is 5th choice. They’d have been better off playing every week in League 2
    Yes, all Academy graduates need to be in the matchday 18 or out on loan. They need 20-30 games of men's football to learn.

    The paradox is that we all wish to "grow our own" but we also need to transform from a mid-table club to a top six contender, ideally in 2024. And that means loans and older players required.
  • fenaddick said:
    Scoham said:
    fenaddick said:
    I’m not convinced we are building the squad for a 4 at the back. We have too many CB’s for that. That said we have too many wingers for a 3-5-2. I’m not sure Scott knows what the identity of the squad should be and that’s a bit worrying, the manager appointment is going to be really interesting 
    I think that’s only because we happen to have three young CBs coming through at the same time.
    not much point having Ness and Elerewe around if neither of them are likely to play though. You’d imagine in a back 4 Hector, Jones & Abankwah would be the first 3 choices so at least one of them is 5th choice. They’d have been better off playing every week in League 2
    Yes, all Academy graduates need to be in the matchday 18 or out on loan. They need 20-30 games of men's football to learn.

    The paradox is that we all wish to "grow our own" but we also need to transform from a mid-table club to a top six contender, ideally in 2024. And that means loans and older players required.
    I actually think the issue is that we relied on Ness too much last year. His development will stall if he’s suddenly playing next to no games. I think having Elerewe around the squad is good for him. You’re right that loans and older players were needed in defence, just feels like Ness is going to suffer for it 
  • fenaddick said:
    I’m not convinced we are building the squad for a 4 at the back. We have too many CB’s for that. That said we have too many wingers for a 3-5-2. I’m not sure Scott knows what the identity of the squad should be and that’s a bit worrying, the manager appointment is going to be really interesting 
    Scott has recruited at four Championship level clubs over the last eight years. And we have zero wing-backs so it's rational to assume that 5-3-2 not on the menu.

    Asiimwe appears to be an attacking full back but not great at crossing nor beating a man. But he's been playing with Anderson for ten years and they just find each other on the right.

    Now that we have Campbell x 2 available we have CBT at 7, Chem at 10 and Tyreece at 11. And there's May, Leaburn, Tedic and Kanu to consider so three on the bench?

    Let's see how we start vs Stevenage and how the new manager adjusts. Impossible to predict how the next five games go. After that we can discuss whether our matchday 18 and tactics are a marked improvement on Sandgaard/ Gallen / Garner.

    Fairly certain that we will need both 2024 windows to improve the squad and the SMT will need to allocate the right budgets for retaining and acquiring talent. There's a lot of players out of contract next summer.
    What are Edun and Watson then? They have both played the majority of their careers at wing back. Plus we have Asiimwe and CBT.

    I think 3-5-2 was the plan and might still be. Our best assets are our central midfield and May and Leaburn up front. So that formation allows us the 3 in midfield, along with 2 strikers. Any new manager looking at the squad will probably come to the same conclusions 

    Our problem is the LCB position, Thomas is our only player that suits the role and there are doubts on whether he’s good enough. Without a good LCB it’s hard to play a back 3 and very difficult to play a back 3 with CBT at wing back.

    Personally I’m hoping for a 4-4-2 for now and then when Fraser returns have the option of a 4-4-2 diamond of Dobson, Camara, Fraser and Chem. This is why I’m also quite keen on Bowyer returning as these were his 2 formations when he first joined us in 2017/18 
  • NabySarr said:
    fenaddick said:
    I’m not convinced we are building the squad for a 4 at the back. We have too many CB’s for that. That said we have too many wingers for a 3-5-2. I’m not sure Scott knows what the identity of the squad should be and that’s a bit worrying, the manager appointment is going to be really interesting 
    Scott has recruited at four Championship level clubs over the last eight years. And we have zero wing-backs so it's rational to assume that 5-3-2 not on the menu.

    Asiimwe appears to be an attacking full back but not great at crossing nor beating a man. But he's been playing with Anderson for ten years and they just find each other on the right.

    Now that we have Campbell x 2 available we have CBT at 7, Chem at 10 and Tyreece at 11. And there's May, Leaburn, Tedic and Kanu to consider so three on the bench?

    Let's see how we start vs Stevenage and how the new manager adjusts. Impossible to predict how the next five games go. After that we can discuss whether our matchday 18 and tactics are a marked improvement on Sandgaard/ Gallen / Garner.

    Fairly certain that we will need both 2024 windows to improve the squad and the SMT will need to allocate the right budgets for retaining and acquiring talent. There's a lot of players out of contract next summer.
    What are Edun and Watson then? They have both played the majority of their careers at wing back. Plus we have Asiimwe and CBT.

    I think 3-5-2 was the plan and might still be. Our best assets are our central midfield and May and Leaburn up front. So that formation allows us the 3 in midfield, along with 2 strikers. Any new manager looking at the squad will probably come to the same conclusions 

    Our problem is the LCB position, Thomas is our only player that suits the role and there are doubts on whether he’s good enough. Without a good LCB it’s hard to play a back 3 and very difficult to play a back 3 with CBT at wing back.

    Personally I’m hoping for a 4-4-2 for now and then when Fraser returns have the option of a 4-4-2 diamond of Dobson, Camara, Fraser and Chem. This is why I’m also quite keen on Bowyer returning as these were his 2 formations when he first joined us in 2017/18 
    Holden was playing Asiimwe and CBT throughout August. Neither are wing-backs and the result was an asymmetric 3-4-3.

    Things have looked better since Campbell returned on the right and Payne left.

    A diamond is not a long way from 4-3-3 - both rely on a decent No. 10 as in Chem Campbell. 4-2-3-1 another option which is similar.

    Let's see who the new manager is and how we set up vs Stevenage. As regards Edun and Watson, will take a look / have a think.
  • Been a while since Appleton was appointed now so I’d love to know peoples thoughts on him tactically. Do you think he’s found the right shape? Where do you think he should play May? What’s the best make up for the midfield now almost everyone’s fit? 
  • fenaddick said:
    Been a while since Appleton was appointed now so I’d love to know peoples thoughts on him tactically. Do you think he’s found the right shape? Where do you think he should play May? What’s the best make up for the midfield now almost everyone’s fit? 
    I think he’s still working it out. I’m expecting him to settle on 4-3-3 in tougher/away games with May out wide and then 4-2-3-1 with May as a 10 at home/easier games 

    I still think it’s silly that we don’t just play 2 up front and pair Leaburn with May. But Appleton is one of those managers that has his formation and won’t stray far away from it 
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