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A shared ownership model for Charlton?

edited February 2023 in General Charlton
I posted this on the takeover thread a little earlier just as a throwaway, but someone suggested we could discuss a little more?

If there were five thousand fans who would be willing to pay £100 a month, we’d generate £6M a year for a 50% ownership stake. I’m in!

[Other figures are available. Terms & conditions apply]

I know there are different ownership models that involve fan ownership are available in countries like Germany. I don’t really know how they work, or who runs them, but anything’s got to be better than the awful model that dominates the Premiership and EFL. 

Other figures: 
5,000 fans paying £100 a month would generate £6M a year. 
5,000 fans paying £200 a month would generate £12M a year. 
2,500 fans paying £200 a month would generate £6M a year. 
1,000 fans paying £500 a month would generate £6M a year.
500 fans paying £1000 a month would generate £6M a year. 

What would you get for your investment? 

Could a season ticket, or a heavily discounted one, be included?
Perhaps the Valley Gold model could be rolled out:
Could a couple of executive boxes be set aside for the use of these shareholders?
There could certainly be a seat or two on the board for an elected shareholder, you’d imagine?
Perhaps there could be a dividend if we reached the Premier League, which would reward/repay these investors. 

Or perhaps there just aren’t enough people wanting to get involved? 
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Comments

  • In the current climate I’m not sure it’s doable tbh 🤷‍♀️
  • Say you sign up and pay £100 per month for two years but then you can't afford to continue. 
    What happens to the £2.400 You have contributed.  ?
  • Let's say 1,000 sign up so that's say £5k as an initial payment, up front, to purchase 50% of the shares at a club valuation of £10 million. Thereafter from month one onwards it's an addition £250 per month to cover 50% of the losses. 

    Who owns the other 50%? Could they just walk away gifting their shares to the other shareholders or perhaps the Trust, leaving the 1,000 fans now having to cover all the losses?

    The up front cost alone would severely restrict take-up and therefore, sadly, I really couldn't see it getting off the ground.

    (as an aside it would have to be 49% otherwise no decisions would ever be made, and I can't see any current owner giving up overall control).  
  • 25 years ago with 4 kids and a mortgage to support I couldn't have done this. Now with the kids all grown up, mortgage free etc a proposition such as this wouldn't be unattractive to me. However, I suspect it might be a struggle to find 5,000 to allow you to go with the £100/month subscription.
  • Say you sign up and pay £100 per month for two years but then you can't afford to continue. 
    What happens to the £2.400 You have contributed.  ?
    Down the drain. But less bad if you got a season ticket included. 

    The ‘in the current climate’ argument is interesting, and not as straight forward as you might think perhaps. There’s a reason why a shrewd businessman like Mike Danson would buy the bible of the super yacht world, Boat International. I thought that was an odd decision at first, but of course the rich have got much richer over the last ten years, while most of us have got poorer or stayed the same.
    I’m not saying there are loads of luxury yacht owning Charlton fans around, but there are plenty of perhaps older or retired fans who might well have a bit of spare cash, who could afford a couple of hundred quid a month. 
    Or maybe not, it’s hard to know. 
  • I’d add a poll if I knew how to. 
  • edited February 2023
    It's worth exploring but would take a lot of work to iron out all the questions (as @blackpool72 raised above).  £25 - £50 a month might be more realistic.  Many questions - is it a shareholding, can you sell?, benefits, inheritance, restrictions?, board representation, private v. public listing?  Would need the buy-in of more than 5,000. A promise of a big dividend if ever get to the Premier League?  think it would all be a bit too complex.  Legal ramifications.  Liability if it all goes wrong?
  • We've been through this many times. Don't think it's possible sadly.
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  • you need to look at hearts and what Anne Budge did, you then need to find our own Anne Budge
  • Who owns the other 50% stake? Who’s selling a 50% stake? 
  • What about the Valley and Sparrows lane?

    Will that mean further investment?

    And if that can't be raised by the supporters where does that leave them?
  • Or a nuclear option is we all do this as a one off to try and get the money to buy the club now and then have the power to sell it to somebody who we choose to negotiate with - probably a Varney-led investor. Possibly even at a discount to help incentivise it for the other investor if necessary / eg to help negotiations with duchatalet. This is a risk as if we couldn’t find one the club would be left with us to fund which would be the death knell and in fact this probably wouldn’t work cos we wouldn’t be able to provide proof of funds but it would stop all this fucking shysters diving in there. 

    To be honest at this stage I would willingly lose a few grand if it meant we got ourselves back into a half decent unified ownership.
  • edited February 2023
    Say you sign up and pay £100 per month for two years but then you can't afford to continue. 
    What happens to the £2.400 You have contributed.  ?
    It becomes a Director's Loan, payable on our inevitable return to the Premier League. Just join the long list of people wanting their money back 🤣😂🤣
  • I'd prefer to donate money to a massive flooding of the Euromillions on a superdraw week (£100 + million draw), say £50  per person per super draw. If we can get 15,000 fans to do it ,odds of winning go from 1 in 140 million to 1 in 500.
    Buy the Valley and SL. (£60 mill). Excess money goes  to Academy (£10 mill),new pitch, and some to good causes in B Greenwich.Rest divide amongst the contributors in proportion to what they put in.
    Done.

  • se9addick said:
    Who owns the other 50% stake? Who’s selling a 50% stake? 
    Not sure, but I think that’s the model in Germany.
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  • From the Bendesliga website:

    https://www.bundesliga.com/en/news/Bundesliga/german-soccer-rules-50-1-fifty-plus-one-explained-466583.jsp

    Football in Germany is popular for many reasons: top-quality play, the highest average attendances in world football, low ticket prices and a great fan culture. A major contributing factor in this is the 50+1 ownership rule. bundesliga.com takes a closer look at exactly how and why it works...

    “The German spectator traditionally has close ties with his club,” Borussia Dortmund CEO Hans-Joachim Watzke said in 2016. “And if he gets the feeling that he’s no longer regarded as a fan but instead as a customer, we’ll have a problem.”

    The 50+1 rule guards against this. In short, it means that clubs – and, by extension, the fans - hold a majority of their own voting rights. Under German Football League [DFL] rules, football clubs will not be allowed to play in the Bundesliga if commercial investors have more than a 49 percent stake.

    In essence, this means that private investors cannot take over clubs and potentially push through measures that prioritise profit over the wishes of supporters. The ruling simultaneously protects against reckless owners and safeguards the democratic customs of German clubs.  

    Historically, German teams were not-for-profit organisations run by members’ associations, and until 1998 private ownership of any kind was prohibited. The 50+1 rule, which was introduced that year, helps explain why debts and wages are under control and why ticket prices remain so low compared to other major leagues in Europe.

    As Watzke argued, the upshot of the system is that fans are usually not taken for granted.

    The 50+1 rule does significantly more good than harm in Germany,” Watzke told SportBild, before suggesting that most prospective private investors would primarily be motivated by profits.

    “Most clubs won’t get a Roman Abramovich, who in the first place wants to see Chelsea winning. Most of the investors want to earn money. And where do they get it from? The spectators.”

    Bayer Leverkusen and Wolfsburg are two special cases in the Bundesliga, based on the fact that investors who have had an interest in a club for more than 20 years can apply for an exemption from the 50+1 rule.

    More recently there have been challenges for the 50+1 ruling. In 2009, hearing aid magnate and Hannover president Martin Kind sought to overturn it but 32 of the other 35 professional clubs voted against the proposal. Three abstained and, following the vote by clubs in the German first and second tier, DFL President Dr Reinhard Rauball expressed his satisfaction.

    “The Bundesliga is remaining true to its principles and maintaining its reliance on the factors which have made a decisive contribution to the success of the professional game in Germany in recent decades: stability, continuity and proximity to fans,” he said.

    With foreign owners pumping billions into other leagues, some other German clubs also feel that a change is required in order to stay competitive on a global level. In September 2017, even Bayern CEO Karl-Heinz Rummenigge said he felt it should be left to each club to decide if they open the door to outside investment.

    ….

    But others favour the retention of a ruling that has helped to fill stadia and create a memorable matchday experience. Watzke told SportBild that he never wanted to see German fans being “milked” for money “as is happening in England.

    Praise for the 50+1 rule hasn’t just come from within Germany, though. At the opening of the 41st DFB Congress in 2013, former UEFA president Michel Platini singled out the Bundesliga model as a golden standard: “While the rest of Europe has boring leagues, half-empty stadia and clubs on the verge of bankruptcy, German football is in remarkable health”.

    Also, from 442 website. Well worth a read: 

    https://www.fourfourtwo.com/features/what-is-the-501-rule-and-could-it-work-in-the-premier-league 

  • JamesSeed said:
    I posted this on the takeover thread a little earlier just as a throwaway, but someone suggested we could discuss a little more?

    If there were five thousand fans who would be willing to pay £100 a month, we’d generate £6M a year for a 50% ownership stake. I’m in!

    [Other figures are available. Terms & conditions apply]

    I know there are different ownership models that involve fan ownership are available in countries like Germany. I don’t really know how they work, or who runs them, but anything’s got to be better than the awful model that dominates the Premiership and EFL. 

    Other figures: 
    5,000 fans paying £100 a month would generate £6M a year. 
    5,000 fans paying £200 a month would generate £12M a year. 
    2,500 fans paying £200 a month would generate £6M a year. 
    1,000 fans paying £500 a month would generate £6M a year.
    500 fans paying £1000 a month would generate £6M a year. 

    What would you get for your investment? 

    Could a season ticket, or a heavily discounted one, be included?
    Perhaps the Valley Gold model could be rolled out:
    Could a couple of executive boxes be set aside for the use of these shareholders?
    There could certainly be a seat or two on the board for an elected shareholder, you’d imagine?
    Perhaps there could be a dividend if we reached the Premier League, which would reward/repay these investors. 

    Or perhaps there just aren’t enough people wanting to get involved? 
    If you include a season ticket then assuming that most of the people who would invest are die hard fans who attend games anyway, then your 6m generated is effectively less as the club would lose the 1.5-2m it usually takes in ST revenue (this is just guesswork as i don't know our ST sales or how much it brings in).

    So the money generated by this would barely cover the wage bill. Who is paying the other day to day running costs, what if we need to buy a player or give a player a new increased contract, what happens if we get an offer for a player that we need to sell but 4k of the 5k fans don't want him sold. 

    Not to mention it would be a bit of a squeeze for the 5k shareholders in the 'couple of executive boxes'.

    It'd just cause too many issues i think. 
  • Start by making society more equal. This, in this society, is a grisly impossibility
  • JamesSeed said:
    se9addick said:
    Who owns the other 50% stake? Who’s selling a 50% stake? 
    Not sure, but I think that’s the model in Germany.
    So you’re advocating relocating from the Valley? 

    :-)
  • edited February 2023
    se9addick said:
    JamesSeed said:
    se9addick said:
    Who owns the other 50% stake? Who’s selling a 50% stake? 
    Not sure, but I think that’s the model in Germany.
    So you’re advocating relocating from the Valley? 

    :-)
    Yes, to the Halbinsel.
  • There was the Valley Investment Plan where a lot of us lost money. 
  • edited February 2023
    It was a one off payment but there was an upper amount that got a season ticket and those with significant contributions below that did get a discount from tickets. Of course it isn't the same but a lot of money was written off without thanks or apology from my memory.
  • JamesSeed said:
    I posted this on the takeover thread a little earlier just as a throwaway, but someone suggested we could discuss a little more?

    If there were five thousand fans who would be willing to pay £100 a month, we’d generate £6M a year for a 50% ownership stake. I’m in!

    [Other figures are available. Terms & conditions apply]

    I know there are different ownership models that involve fan ownership are available in countries like Germany. I don’t really know how they work, or who runs them, but anything’s got to be better than the awful model that dominates the Premiership and EFL. 

    Other figures: 
    5,000 fans paying £100 a month would generate £6M a year. 
    5,000 fans paying £200 a month would generate £12M a year. 
    2,500 fans paying £200 a month would generate £6M a year. 
    1,000 fans paying £500 a month would generate £6M a year.
    500 fans paying £1000 a month would generate £6M a year. 

    What would you get for your investment? 

    Could a season ticket, or a heavily discounted one, be included?
    Perhaps the Valley Gold model could be rolled out:
    Could a couple of executive boxes be set aside for the use of these shareholders?
    There could certainly be a seat or two on the board for an elected shareholder, you’d imagine?
    Perhaps there could be a dividend if we reached the Premier League, which would reward/repay these investors. 

    Or perhaps there just aren’t enough people wanting to get involved? 
    If you include a season ticket then assuming that most of the people who would invest are die hard fans who attend games anyway, then your 6m generated is effectively less as the club would lose the 1.5-2m it usually takes in ST revenue (this is just guesswork as i don't know our ST sales or how much it brings in).

    So the money generated by this would barely cover the wage bill. Who is paying the other day to day running costs, what if we need to buy a player or give a player a new increased contract, what happens if we get an offer for a player that we need to sell but 4k of the 5k fans don't want him sold. 

    Not to mention it would be a bit of a squeeze for the 5k shareholders in the 'couple of executive boxes'.

    It'd just cause too many issues i think. 
    As mentioned earlier, the Valley Gold system. A draw, in other words. 

    As I said, the sums are flexible. All I’m saying is if Charlton is run at a £6M loss each year, then it’s pretty unsustainable, and we’re unlikely to ever get reasonable owners willing to foot the bill. 
    Surely there’s a way for Charlton fans to get involved? As other systems work in other countries then it’s probably worth looking a little more closely to see if we’re missing something.

    So quite a few have said £100 a month is too expensive. So… perhaps it’s back to ‘Operation 20k’. 
    So perhaps if you offered some sort of membership at just £600 a year or £50 a month, (price of the best West Stand season ticket, I’m guessing) then you would need to get 20k take you up on that to raise £12M a year. If membership gave you a half price season ticket that would only reduce that income amount by about £1.2M, (as a guess, based on 6k season tickets at an average of £375).

    I guess the big flaw is that you’d never get 20k Charlton fans willing to shell out even that much, outside of the Premier League I guess, which is a shame. Rick would know all about this I guess. 

    But you would be offering:
    A 50+1 system of ownership. Members would own a majority shareholding in Charlton. Seats on the Board. 
    Your season ticket at half price,
    A chance of use of the exec box(es),
    Entry in a draw, as per Valley Gold, 
    And, so long as you keep your membership active, a chance of a windfall if we made it to the Premier League.
    Income in the Prem would be £100M+, so it wouldn’t be unreasonable for £5M to be distributed to members? 

    I’d pay £50 a month for that. Just another 19,999 to go then.

    Another issue of course is what happens if we did get to the Premier League? Other clubs with billionaire owners would blow you out of the water presumably. 
    In Germany Bayern Munich have 290,000 members, which presumably is why they are so dominant. 
  • It was a one off payment but there was an upper amount that got a season ticket and those with significant contributions below that did get a discount from tickets. Of course it isn't the same but a lot of money was written off without thanks or apology from my memory.
    I'm sure Airman Brown might remember but I'm sure people didn't lose money through the VIP Scheme. 
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