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Playing out from the back

Every week watching the week's highlights you see horrendous centre half errors leading to soft goals. Did you see Villa vs Stevenage? There's a reason players are defenders; if they had more skills they would be playing further up the pitch. This is not just an Inness problem.

However much we all want to buy into Pep's glory play, has anyone actually worked out how bad defending is now at all levels of the game and whether or not playing out from the back at all costs is paying off? There was a lot to be said for 1-0 to the Arsenal. Is this the Emperor's new clothes of the modern game? 

Comments

  • edited January 9
    kafka said:
    Every week watching the week's highlights you see horrendous centre half errors leading to soft goals. Did you see Villa vs Stevenage? There's a reason players are defenders; if they had more skills they would be playing further up the pitch. This is not just an Inness problem.

    However much we all want to buy into Pep's glory play, has anyone actually worked out how bad defending is now at all levels of the game and whether or not playing out from the back at all costs is paying off? There was a lot to be said for 1-0 to the Arsenal. Is this the Emperor's new clothes of the modern game? 
    Yes I believe it is.
    I find it infuriating that so many goals are gifted away every week.
    If you KNOW there is no one marking/pressing a player then fair enough, but these ridiculous passes across the face of the goal and to players facing the goal who don't know there is someone behind them are utterly ridiculous.

    McG in our goal Saturday tried his best to help Lincoln.
  • I can imagine the stats will show that there are not a greater number of goals are conceded by “unforced errors” by playing this way.

    It probably shows that it actually creates more opportunities at the other end in terms of possession turnover etc.

    There are very few clubs in the professional game that won’t have access to every data point available to make these decisions.
  • I remember Dowie implementing it when he was manager against Carlisle. Myhre kept nearly giving the ball away.
  • edited January 9
    Seems that more goals are scored like this now than are scored from corners. 
  •  I went to watch my grandson who is 11 play yesterday morning and was amazed to see my son in law who is the manager has the youngsters playing out from the back.

    It was a tight game with our team winning 2-1 and thankfully no mistakes playing this way but I am sure it will happen 
  • edited January 9
    There were at least 6 goals conceded in this fashion on the FA Cup highlights I saw at the weekend - Josh Cullen guilty of a bad one for Burnley, the one the OP mentions, Allison for Liverpool, there was one in I think Barnsley vs Derby, and a couple more that I forget specifically which matches they were in. Got a nice patronising "yes dear" from the wife as I ranted after watching it happen for the third time in three successive matches on the Sunday highlights show.

    I guess for individual teams, it probably only leads directly to a goal one to three times a season and the argument would be more goals are scored because of retaining possession and building out from the back, but I'm not convinced. Teams certainly look really stupid when they get it wrong.
  • It’s very noticeable how much Holden has made our CBs cut out playing about at the back, to the point where I find myself berating Innis & Ness for needlessly putting the ball out of play 
  • Should only be used at the top level. 

    I am sure there are some surgical procedures that top surgeons can use to improve chance of success during an operation. 

    However, I don’t want to see Doris the scrub nurse wielding the knife and attempting the same manoeuvre 
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  • In the commentary of Manchester City vs Chelsea, the commentator said that Guardiola's dream/perfect team would be a goalkeeper and 10 midfielders.

    He also successfully converted Mascherano from a defensive midfielder to a centre half because he was comfortable on the ball and could pass well (an injury crisis in the Champions League prompted the move, but then he played there for 4 different managers).

    It's a thing that's here to stay, same as 4-3-3 for all you 4-4-BLEEDIN-2! lot... 
  • edited January 10
    A good article on the topic.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2021/01/04/do-teams-play-back-mistakes-often-lead-directly-goals/

    Why do teams play out from the back when mistakes so often lead directly to goals?

    Retaining possession, creating space and keeping distances tight are some of principles underpinning short passing in deep areas

    By JJ Bull

    4 January 2021 • 1:53pm

    When teams play out from the back and make errors which lead to the opposition scoring, for some, a crime against football has been committed. Clear your lines!

    Why would a goalkeeper pass sideways when he could rid his defence of danger with a swing of the boot? Why was the centre-back messing about with it near the corner flag? With hindsight this all seems so obvious: kick the ball far away and your team doesn't concede.

    So, why is it that so many managers don't instruct their players to do that? Why do teams persist with playing out from the back? And why do they bother with it in the first place? 

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2021/01/04/do-teams-play-back-mistakes-often-lead-directly-goals/

  • Garner ball was laboured and lacking pace. Antony Hayes introduced a faster pace and more direct. Amanda has improved on Antony‘s changed approach and it looks far better and positive. It does get stuck at times but realistically we have div 2/3 footballers. 
    Now I wish Southgate will do the same. 
  • We should definitely try and play it out from the back against Manchester United. Can’t possibly imagine it going wrong. 
  • clb74 said:
    Does my head in.
    Not as much as not leaving someone on the halfway line for a corner though.
    Also the fashion for having nobody on either post for corners

    They're all just fashions.  3rd division cloggers pissing around with it at the back, little lightweight non-tacklers getting in defenders' way at corners and zonal marking are all classic "it's good on paper" bollocks.  Horses for courses and we're pit ponies not thoroughbreds.
  • Solidgone said:
    Garner ball was laboured and lacking pace. Antony Hayes introduced a faster pace and more direct. Amanda has improved on Antony‘s changed approach and it looks far better and positive. It does get stuck at times but realistically we have div 2/3 footballers. 
    Now I wish Southgate will do the same. 
    Agree. We might not have lost that game against France had Southgate not played keepball in our half of the pitch for most of the first 45.

    Another problem at our level compared with Pepworld is that his defenders are comfortable on the ball and pass in front of the receiver to create some momentum, whereas ours are not comfortable and to avoid errors either pass directly to or even behind the receiver thus slowing the game right down and making it very tedious to watch.


  •  I went to watch my grandson who is 11 play yesterday morning and was amazed to see my son in law who is the manager has the youngsters playing out from the back.

    It was a tight game with our team winning 2-1 and thankfully no mistakes playing this way but I am sure it will happen 
    And well played to your son in law for enforcing they play out the back. At that age no player is definitley always going to be a defender or midfielder etc. So everyone should be encouraged to be confident, look after the ball, always show for it and be brave to accept it in all kinds of positions.

    At youth level, mistakes happen and that is the best time for them to happen, so they learn and think about what they might do next time.

    I don't believe defenders should be hoofers who when in doubt kick it out. Next time you see a defender with the ball at their feet, don't just watch them being closed down, watch the movement of those infront of them. That is where most the issues are born from, lack of options or movement. Not defending every mistake of course.

    In my opinion the great Johan Cruyff said it best 'In my teams, the goalie is the first attacker, and the striker is the first defender'.
  • edited January 10
    Southbank said:
    Solidgone said:
    Garner ball was laboured and lacking pace. Antony Hayes introduced a faster pace and more direct. Amanda has improved on Antony‘s changed approach and it looks far better and positive. It does get stuck at times but realistically we have div 2/3 footballers. 
    Now I wish Southgate will do the same. 
    Agree. We might not have lost that game against France had Southgate not played keepball in our half of the pitch for most of the first 45.

    Another problem at our level compared with Pepworld is that his defenders are comfortable on the ball and pass in front of the receiver to create some momentum, whereas ours are not comfortable and to avoid errors either pass directly to or even behind the receiver thus slowing the game right down and making it very tedious to watch.


    But I would argue that our best short passing CB, O'Connell, is also the one who has the best range of passing. So with Lavelle and Inniss, it's basically either maintain possession or hoof it. 

    I think you're identifying a disconnect between the way we want to play and the players we have, and not a fault in a universal way football is played. Our problem is not, we want to play possession-based football. That suit O'Connell, probably Ness, Thomas, Fraser, Payne, Morgan, the wingers Miles, and Dobbo--who has made great strides in possession in tight spaces this season. Our problem is Lavelle and Inniss do not provide a good enough springboard to play out from the back, something the rest of the team, bar Stockley, is built to do. 

    I've said this elsewhere, but I think this is why we were prioritizing another CB going into the last few days of the Summer window. It's not because we don't have enough CBs, we do. It's because we don't have enough CBs who can play the way the rest of the team wants to play. The same is obviously true of CF, and even though I don't think Bonne was the best solution, we know that was something the club was looking to add in the window as well before it fell through.

    Again, these are problems of our current squad, not of our approach. 

    And to talk about England for a moment, one thing England did very well was control that game and limit France's ability to take the game to them. France are a team that don't high press very much, and as such, they let England have the ball, and England were happy to keep it because when they had the ball, Mbappe and Dembele weren't running at them with it. England's moves didn't break down in the first or even middle third as much as they did the final third, where for a variety of reasons, including France crowding them in possession, they weren't able to create and capitalize on clear cut chances. 
  • edited January 10
    SDAddick said:
    Southbank said:
    Solidgone said:
    Garner ball was laboured and lacking pace. Antony Hayes introduced a faster pace and more direct. Amanda has improved on Antony‘s changed approach and it looks far better and positive. It does get stuck at times but realistically we have div 2/3 footballers. 
    Now I wish Southgate will do the same. 
    Agree. We might not have lost that game against France had Southgate not played keepball in our half of the pitch for most of the first 45.

    Another problem at our level compared with Pepworld is that his defenders are comfortable on the ball and pass in front of the receiver to create some momentum, whereas ours are not comfortable and to avoid errors either pass directly to or even behind the receiver thus slowing the game right down and making it very tedious to watch.


    But I would argue that our best short passing CB, O'Connell, is also the one who has the best range of passing. So with Lavelle and Inniss, it's basically either maintain possession or hoof it. 

    I think you're identifying a disconnect between the way we want to play and the players we have, and not a fault in a universal way football is played. Our problem is not, we want to play possession-based football. That suit O'Connell, probably Ness, Thomas, Fraser, Payne, Morgan, the wingers Miles, and Dobbo--who has made great strides in possession in tight spaces this season. Our problem is Lavelle and Inniss do not provide a good enough springboard to play out from the back, something the rest of the team, bar Stockley, is built to do. 

    I've said this elsewhere, but I think this is why we were prioritizing another CB going into the last few days of the Summer window. It's not because we don't have enough CBs, we do. It's because we don't have enough CBs who can play the way the rest of the team wants to play. The same is obviously true of CF, and even though I don't think Bonne was the best solution, we know that was something the club was looking to add in the window as well before it fell through.

    Again, these are problems of our current squad, not of our approach. 

    And to talk about England for a moment, one thing England did very well was control that game and limit France's ability to take the game to them. France are a team that don't high press very much, and as such, they let England have the ball, and England were happy to keep it because when they had the ball, Mbappe and Dembele weren't running at them with it. England's moves didn't break down in the first or even middle third as much as they did the final third, where for a variety of reasons, including France crowding them in possession, they weren't able to create and capitalize on clear cut chances. 
    Well until we have the players, why do something that does not work? That was Garner's fault. Early days I know, but Holden has clearly told Inniss and Ness not to piss about with the ball in tight situations but hoof it, and quite right too.

    Problem with your take on the England first half is that we were not able to utilise our forward attacking strengths because we were content to try to contain the French despite being a goal down. We wasted 30m of the game pissing about at the back instead of going for the French in their weakest area, their defence.

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