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The “Elgin Marbles”
Comments
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Think it's a bit more complex than some of the sentiments echoed on here. I think given the strength of feeling in Greece it's right to return them, but there's a far, FAR wider - and quite complex - discussion about imperialism/colonialism here* that I think is perhaps best avoided on a football forum.
(*I know Greece wasn't a British colony at the time of the expatriation of the marbles, hence why it's a really complex discussion)0 -
PaddyP17 said:Think it's a bit more complex than some of the sentiments echoed on here. I think given the strength of feeling in Greece it's right to return them, but there's a far, FAR wider - and quite complex - discussion about imperialism/colonialism here* that I think is perhaps best avoided on a football forum.
(*I know Greece wasn't a British colony at the time of the expatriation of the marbles, hence why it's a really complex discussion)
Okay. Helen of Troy - Would ya?PaddyP17 said:Think it's a bit more complex than some of the sentiments echoed on here. I think given the strength of feeling in Greece it's right to return them, but there's a far, FAR wider - and quite complex - discussion about imperialism/colonialism here* that I think is perhaps best avoided on a football forum.
(*I know Greece wasn't a British colony at the time of the expatriation of the marbles, hence why it's a really complex discussion)6 -
If only someone could find the receipt...2
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Two kylix job thatKiwiValley said:PaddyP17 said:Think it's a bit more complex than some of the sentiments echoed on here. I think given the strength of feeling in Greece it's right to return them, but there's a far, FAR wider - and quite complex - discussion about imperialism/colonialism here* that I think is perhaps best avoided on a football forum.
(*I know Greece wasn't a British colony at the time of the expatriation of the marbles, hence why it's a really complex discussion)
Okay. Helen of Troy - Would ya?PaddyP17 said:Think it's a bit more complex than some of the sentiments echoed on here. I think given the strength of feeling in Greece it's right to return them, but there's a far, FAR wider - and quite complex - discussion about imperialism/colonialism here* that I think is perhaps best avoided on a football forum.
(*I know Greece wasn't a British colony at the time of the expatriation of the marbles, hence why it's a really complex discussion)0 -
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Your opinion, not "fact".ShootersHillGuru said:
They belong exactly where they were designed for and attached until they were removed by Elgin. No amount of whataboutary can alter the fact that the best place for them is in Greece and attached to the Building for which they were sculpted.Off_it said:
That makes the (big) assumption that giving the marble back is the "right thing" because they were stolen in the first place. I'm no expert by any means, but isn't that the whole point?se9addick said:
Why not do the right thing in this instance, give back the marbles, and then cross those bridges when we get there?swordfish said:
Not necessarily, but how far back do you go to draw the line and if a line isn't to be drawn, who's the appropriate authority to adjudicate on such matters.se9addick said:
Is that a bad thing?swordfish said:
Not in the 1800's so I wouldn't feel the loss personally.ShootersHillGuru said:
Ever been burgled ?SporadicAddick said:You snooze you lose. Keep them where they belong, bang in the heart of London.
It might also set a precedent for resolution of historic crimes and misdemeanors with consequences for reparations etc.
If to return them was the end of the matter avoiding all the above, then I've no objection to returning them.
It's hardly important right now though given what else is going on in the world.I don’t think we should “avoid” the idea that we should consider how this country has benefitted significantly from the exploitation of other parts of the world and, if there is a genuine case for restitution, then it should be considered.
And that's not "whataboutary" - it's a fact that it's your opinion, to which you are obviously fully entitled.3 -
they wouldn't have been left in a ruined building that was used to store explosives if they were so important
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Glad I started this thread. Been an education into the thinking of us brits. Last two posts above this one in particular.3
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Come now, lets not get all superior...ShootersHillGuru said:Glad I started this thread. Been an education into the thinking of us brits. Last two posts above this one in particular.1 -
Lol, you what?ShootersHillGuru said:Glad I started this thread. Been an education into the thinking of us brits. Last two posts above this one in particular.
Me pointing out that your stated "fact" was in fact just your opinion?
Personally I don't really have a firm view either way and can see all sides of the debate. It's far from a straightforward issue.
But what you said still isn't a "fact". It's your opinion.3 -
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Absolutely. Shall we balance that against our income from empire? The East India Company profits which devolved to the UK government probably writes off any "aid" expenditure.Gribbo said:Can we put some claims in to get some of the £Billions we've given away in foreign aid over the years, now shits hitting the fan here?0 -
I agree . A fact is incontrovertible. The facts here are:-Off_it said:
Lol, you what?ShootersHillGuru said:Glad I started this thread. Been an education into the thinking of us brits. Last two posts above this one in particular.
Me pointing out that your stated "fact" was in fact just your opinion?
Personally I don't really have a firm view either way and can see all sides of the debate. It's far from a straightforward issue.
But what you said still isn't a "fact". It's your opinion.
They were originally part of a building;
They aren't there now;
To restore them to their origin requires action;
However, whether that action should be taken is the subject of debate being controversial and therefore not a fact.
Edit. I should put 'the stating of opinion as fact' in the "General things that annoy you" thread.1 -
Okay, might aswell go the whole hog mate. Unless you want to arbitrate where snd when the line gets drawnWheresmeticket? said:
Absolutely. Shall we balance that against our income from empire? The East India Company profits which devolved to the UK government probably writes off any "aid" expenditure.Gribbo said:Can we put some claims in to get some of the £Billions we've given away in foreign aid over the years, now shits hitting the fan here?0 -
Inspired by this thread (not really, it was planned a long time ago) I was at The Acropolis yesterday. I asked our (Greek) tour guide about the marbles, and thought his response was interesting.
The nationalists want them back, but for most Greeks it’s a non issue. On balance many believe that having them seen by more people in The British Museum inspires people to visit Greece.
his exact words were “I don’t care that they are in England”. This from a man that was clearly passionate about his subject.
It’s also worth noting that If they were returned, they wouldn’t be displayed any where near The Parthenon. Instead they would be in a museum about 1/2 a mile away, and seen by far fewer people from around the world than they are today.As someone who believes they should remain in the British Museum, I recognise this might come across as confirmation bias as I’m sure a different guide may have given a different answer, but it’s the answer I heard.7 -
Very interesting post SA. When this thread started I had wondered whether the average Greek person really cared much either way. It did seem like one of those causes that some politicians push much higher up the agenda than it should be when they are wanting to deflect from their own shortcomings.SporadicAddick said:Inspired by this thread (not really, it was planned a long time ago) I was at The Acropolis yesterday. I asked our (Greek) tour guide about the marbles, and thought his response was interesting.
The nationalists want them back, but for most Greeks it’s a non issue. On balance many believe that having them seen by more people in The British Museum inspires people to visit Greece.
his exact words were “I don’t care that they are in England”. This from a man that was clearly passionate about his subject.
It’s also worth noting that If they were returned, they wouldn’t be displayed any where near The Parthenon. Instead they would be in a museum about 1/2 a mile away, and seen by far fewer people from around the world than they are today.As someone who believes they should remain in the British Museum, I recognise this might come across as confirmation bias as I’m sure a different guide may have given a different answer, but it’s the answer I heard.
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I would have thought that the average Greek person is either pretty apathetic or unaware about them not being in Greece.Algarveaddick said:
Very interesting post SA. When this thread started I had wondered whether the average Greek person really cared much either way. It did seem like one of those causes that some politicians push much higher up the agenda than it should be when they are wanting to deflect from their own shortcomings.SporadicAddick said:Inspired by this thread (not really, it was planned a long time ago) I was at The Acropolis yesterday. I asked our (Greek) tour guide about the marbles, and thought his response was interesting.
The nationalists want them back, but for most Greeks it’s a non issue. On balance many believe that having them seen by more people in The British Museum inspires people to visit Greece.
his exact words were “I don’t care that they are in England”. This from a man that was clearly passionate about his subject.
It’s also worth noting that If they were returned, they wouldn’t be displayed any where near The Parthenon. Instead they would be in a museum about 1/2 a mile away, and seen by far fewer people from around the world than they are today.As someone who believes they should remain in the British Museum, I recognise this might come across as confirmation bias as I’m sure a different guide may have given a different answer, but it’s the answer I heard.
Similarly I would have thought that the average British person is either pretty apathetic or unaware about them being in the British museum8 -
Yes - I quite agree.SuedeAdidas said:
I would have thought that the average Greek person is either pretty apathetic or unaware about them not being in Greece.Algarveaddick said:
Very interesting post SA. When this thread started I had wondered whether the average Greek person really cared much either way. It did seem like one of those causes that some politicians push much higher up the agenda than it should be when they are wanting to deflect from their own shortcomings.SporadicAddick said:Inspired by this thread (not really, it was planned a long time ago) I was at The Acropolis yesterday. I asked our (Greek) tour guide about the marbles, and thought his response was interesting.
The nationalists want them back, but for most Greeks it’s a non issue. On balance many believe that having them seen by more people in The British Museum inspires people to visit Greece.
his exact words were “I don’t care that they are in England”. This from a man that was clearly passionate about his subject.
It’s also worth noting that If they were returned, they wouldn’t be displayed any where near The Parthenon. Instead they would be in a museum about 1/2 a mile away, and seen by far fewer people from around the world than they are today.As someone who believes they should remain in the British Museum, I recognise this might come across as confirmation bias as I’m sure a different guide may have given a different answer, but it’s the answer I heard.
Similarly I would have thought that the average British person is either pretty apathetic or unaware about them being in the British museum1 -
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No no no. "We" , collectively, "stole" them and so "we" need to give them back, apparently. Whilst we tell ourselves what terrible people "we" are, despite the fact - which is a bona fide fact - that all of this happened many many years ago and before any of us were born.SporadicAddick said:Inspired by this thread (not really, it was planned a long time ago) I was at The Acropolis yesterday. I asked our (Greek) tour guide about the marbles, and thought his response was interesting.
The nationalists want them back, but for most Greeks it’s a non issue. On balance many believe that having them seen by more people in The British Museum inspires people to visit Greece.
his exact words were “I don’t care that they are in England”. This from a man that was clearly passionate about his subject.
It’s also worth noting that If they were returned, they wouldn’t be displayed any where near The Parthenon. Instead they would be in a museum about 1/2 a mile away, and seen by far fewer people from around the world than they are today.As someone who believes they should remain in the British Museum, I recognise this might come across as confirmation bias as I’m sure a different guide may have given a different answer, but it’s the answer I heard.5 -
No idea what that comments got to do with the topic. All things in life are better served in their natural place. The natural place for the marbles isn’t in my opinion The British Museum. Nothing to do with how they got there for me. It’s about where they should be.Off_it said:
No no no. "We" , collectively, "stole" them and so "we" need to give them back, apparently. Whilst we tell ourselves what terrible people "we" are, despite the fact - which is a bona fide fact - that all of this happened many many years ago and before any of us were born.SporadicAddick said:Inspired by this thread (not really, it was planned a long time ago) I was at The Acropolis yesterday. I asked our (Greek) tour guide about the marbles, and thought his response was interesting.
The nationalists want them back, but for most Greeks it’s a non issue. On balance many believe that having them seen by more people in The British Museum inspires people to visit Greece.
his exact words were “I don’t care that they are in England”. This from a man that was clearly passionate about his subject.
It’s also worth noting that If they were returned, they wouldn’t be displayed any where near The Parthenon. Instead they would be in a museum about 1/2 a mile away, and seen by far fewer people from around the world than they are today.As someone who believes they should remain in the British Museum, I recognise this might come across as confirmation bias as I’m sure a different guide may have given a different answer, but it’s the answer I heard.3 -
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OK. Fair enough.ShootersHillGuru said:
No idea what that comments got to do with the topic. All things in life are better served in their natural place. The natural place for the marbles isn’t in my opinion The British Museum. Nothing to do with how they got there for me. It’s about where they should be.Off_it said:
No no no. "We" , collectively, "stole" them and so "we" need to give them back, apparently. Whilst we tell ourselves what terrible people "we" are, despite the fact - which is a bona fide fact - that all of this happened many many years ago and before any of us were born.SporadicAddick said:Inspired by this thread (not really, it was planned a long time ago) I was at The Acropolis yesterday. I asked our (Greek) tour guide about the marbles, and thought his response was interesting.
The nationalists want them back, but for most Greeks it’s a non issue. On balance many believe that having them seen by more people in The British Museum inspires people to visit Greece.
his exact words were “I don’t care that they are in England”. This from a man that was clearly passionate about his subject.
It’s also worth noting that If they were returned, they wouldn’t be displayed any where near The Parthenon. Instead they would be in a museum about 1/2 a mile away, and seen by far fewer people from around the world than they are today.As someone who believes they should remain in the British Museum, I recognise this might come across as confirmation bias as I’m sure a different guide may have given a different answer, but it’s the answer I heard.
But by that rationale I suppose you have nothing in your house made of gold then, or wood, or cotton - or anything not from your garden? Because surely that belongs in it's "natural place".
And I still want London Bridge back, because here is where it naturally belongs.
My point being that your argument is flawed if you don't consider how and why things ended up where they are.1 -
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Exactly!ShootersHillGuru said:🤦🏻♂️0 -
OK, and by that rationale if your parents stole something before you were born and refused to give it back to the rightful owner who then asked you to give it back you would refuse on the grounds that it happened before you were born? (Not suggesting that your parents would ever do such a thing, obvs).Off_it said:
OK. Fair enough.ShootersHillGuru said:
No idea what that comments got to do with the topic. All things in life are better served in their natural place. The natural place for the marbles isn’t in my opinion The British Museum. Nothing to do with how they got there for me. It’s about where they should be.Off_it said:
No no no. "We" , collectively, "stole" them and so "we" need to give them back, apparently. Whilst we tell ourselves what terrible people "we" are, despite the fact - which is a bona fide fact - that all of this happened many many years ago and before any of us were born.SporadicAddick said:Inspired by this thread (not really, it was planned a long time ago) I was at The Acropolis yesterday. I asked our (Greek) tour guide about the marbles, and thought his response was interesting.
The nationalists want them back, but for most Greeks it’s a non issue. On balance many believe that having them seen by more people in The British Museum inspires people to visit Greece.
his exact words were “I don’t care that they are in England”. This from a man that was clearly passionate about his subject.
It’s also worth noting that If they were returned, they wouldn’t be displayed any where near The Parthenon. Instead they would be in a museum about 1/2 a mile away, and seen by far fewer people from around the world than they are today.As someone who believes they should remain in the British Museum, I recognise this might come across as confirmation bias as I’m sure a different guide may have given a different answer, but it’s the answer I heard.
But by that rationale I suppose you have nothing in your house made of gold then, or wood, or cotton - or anything not from your garden? Because surely that belongs in it's "natural place".
And I still want London Bridge back, because here is where it naturally belongs.
My point being that your argument is flawed if you don't consider how and why things ended up where they are.0 -
No, I wouldn't - if it was clear that the object was stolen. But if my parents had bought the object then I wouldn't be giving anything back.Wheresmeticket? said:
OK, and by that rationale if your parents stole something before you were born and refused to give it back to the rightful owner who then asked you to give it back you would refuse on the grounds that it happened before you were born? (Not suggesting that your parents would ever do such a thing, obvs).Off_it said:
OK. Fair enough.ShootersHillGuru said:
No idea what that comments got to do with the topic. All things in life are better served in their natural place. The natural place for the marbles isn’t in my opinion The British Museum. Nothing to do with how they got there for me. It’s about where they should be.Off_it said:
No no no. "We" , collectively, "stole" them and so "we" need to give them back, apparently. Whilst we tell ourselves what terrible people "we" are, despite the fact - which is a bona fide fact - that all of this happened many many years ago and before any of us were born.SporadicAddick said:Inspired by this thread (not really, it was planned a long time ago) I was at The Acropolis yesterday. I asked our (Greek) tour guide about the marbles, and thought his response was interesting.
The nationalists want them back, but for most Greeks it’s a non issue. On balance many believe that having them seen by more people in The British Museum inspires people to visit Greece.
his exact words were “I don’t care that they are in England”. This from a man that was clearly passionate about his subject.
It’s also worth noting that If they were returned, they wouldn’t be displayed any where near The Parthenon. Instead they would be in a museum about 1/2 a mile away, and seen by far fewer people from around the world than they are today.As someone who believes they should remain in the British Museum, I recognise this might come across as confirmation bias as I’m sure a different guide may have given a different answer, but it’s the answer I heard.
But by that rationale I suppose you have nothing in your house made of gold then, or wood, or cotton - or anything not from your garden? Because surely that belongs in it's "natural place".
And I still want London Bridge back, because here is where it naturally belongs.
My point being that your argument is flawed if you don't consider how and why things ended up where they are.
That's my point. You have to look at how and why something ended up where it is, not just you should give something "back" because someone happens to want it.
If your grandad sold something - a family heir loom - to my grandad then you might not like it, but you're not having it back. If my grandad nicked it then it's yours, with pleasure.1 -
The point is we (British people) don’t need the sculpture. It would be best viewed by future generations where it’s meant to be. Do you really believe the best place for its viewing is the BM ?Off_it said:
No, I wouldn't - if it was clear that the object was stolen. But if my parents had bought the object then I wouldn't be giving anything back.Wheresmeticket? said:
OK, and by that rationale if your parents stole something before you were born and refused to give it back to the rightful owner who then asked you to give it back you would refuse on the grounds that it happened before you were born? (Not suggesting that your parents would ever do such a thing, obvs).Off_it said:
OK. Fair enough.ShootersHillGuru said:
No idea what that comments got to do with the topic. All things in life are better served in their natural place. The natural place for the marbles isn’t in my opinion The British Museum. Nothing to do with how they got there for me. It’s about where they should be.Off_it said:
No no no. "We" , collectively, "stole" them and so "we" need to give them back, apparently. Whilst we tell ourselves what terrible people "we" are, despite the fact - which is a bona fide fact - that all of this happened many many years ago and before any of us were born.SporadicAddick said:Inspired by this thread (not really, it was planned a long time ago) I was at The Acropolis yesterday. I asked our (Greek) tour guide about the marbles, and thought his response was interesting.
The nationalists want them back, but for most Greeks it’s a non issue. On balance many believe that having them seen by more people in The British Museum inspires people to visit Greece.
his exact words were “I don’t care that they are in England”. This from a man that was clearly passionate about his subject.
It’s also worth noting that If they were returned, they wouldn’t be displayed any where near The Parthenon. Instead they would be in a museum about 1/2 a mile away, and seen by far fewer people from around the world than they are today.As someone who believes they should remain in the British Museum, I recognise this might come across as confirmation bias as I’m sure a different guide may have given a different answer, but it’s the answer I heard.
But by that rationale I suppose you have nothing in your house made of gold then, or wood, or cotton - or anything not from your garden? Because surely that belongs in it's "natural place".
And I still want London Bridge back, because here is where it naturally belongs.
My point being that your argument is flawed if you don't consider how and why things ended up where they are.
That's my point. You have to look at how and why something ended up where it is, not just you should give something "back" because someone happens to want it.
If your grandad sold something - a family heir loom - to my grandad then you might not like it, but you're not having it back. If my grandad nicked it then it's yours, with pleasure.0 -
Does anyone "need" a sculpture?ShootersHillGuru said:
The point is we (British people) don’t need the sculpture. It would be best viewed by future generations where it’s meant to be. Do you really believe the best place for its viewing is the BM ?Off_it said:
No, I wouldn't - if it was clear that the object was stolen. But if my parents had bought the object then I wouldn't be giving anything back.Wheresmeticket? said:
OK, and by that rationale if your parents stole something before you were born and refused to give it back to the rightful owner who then asked you to give it back you would refuse on the grounds that it happened before you were born? (Not suggesting that your parents would ever do such a thing, obvs).Off_it said:
OK. Fair enough.ShootersHillGuru said:
No idea what that comments got to do with the topic. All things in life are better served in their natural place. The natural place for the marbles isn’t in my opinion The British Museum. Nothing to do with how they got there for me. It’s about where they should be.Off_it said:
No no no. "We" , collectively, "stole" them and so "we" need to give them back, apparently. Whilst we tell ourselves what terrible people "we" are, despite the fact - which is a bona fide fact - that all of this happened many many years ago and before any of us were born.SporadicAddick said:Inspired by this thread (not really, it was planned a long time ago) I was at The Acropolis yesterday. I asked our (Greek) tour guide about the marbles, and thought his response was interesting.
The nationalists want them back, but for most Greeks it’s a non issue. On balance many believe that having them seen by more people in The British Museum inspires people to visit Greece.
his exact words were “I don’t care that they are in England”. This from a man that was clearly passionate about his subject.
It’s also worth noting that If they were returned, they wouldn’t be displayed any where near The Parthenon. Instead they would be in a museum about 1/2 a mile away, and seen by far fewer people from around the world than they are today.As someone who believes they should remain in the British Museum, I recognise this might come across as confirmation bias as I’m sure a different guide may have given a different answer, but it’s the answer I heard.
But by that rationale I suppose you have nothing in your house made of gold then, or wood, or cotton - or anything not from your garden? Because surely that belongs in it's "natural place".
And I still want London Bridge back, because here is where it naturally belongs.
My point being that your argument is flawed if you don't consider how and why things ended up where they are.
That's my point. You have to look at how and why something ended up where it is, not just you should give something "back" because someone happens to want it.
If your grandad sold something - a family heir loom - to my grandad then you might not like it, but you're not having it back. If my grandad nicked it then it's yours, with pleasure.
Are you suggesting "we" stole them or not then? If they were legitimately acquired and then gifted to the museum then why wouldn't that be the best place for them?
Surely the same would apply to just about any exhibition in any museum if that were the case?
And you again seem to be confusing your own personal views and opinions - "it would be best viewed" - with actual facts.2 -
What if they were originally from somewhere that's now underwater? Should we take them back and dump them in the sea and say "anyone that wants to view these need to dive down to see them"2
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Ok. I surrender. Let’s keep the damned thing.Off_it said:
Does anyone "need" a sculpture?ShootersHillGuru said:
The point is we (British people) don’t need the sculpture. It would be best viewed by future generations where it’s meant to be. Do you really believe the best place for its viewing is the BM ?Off_it said:
No, I wouldn't - if it was clear that the object was stolen. But if my parents had bought the object then I wouldn't be giving anything back.Wheresmeticket? said:
OK, and by that rationale if your parents stole something before you were born and refused to give it back to the rightful owner who then asked you to give it back you would refuse on the grounds that it happened before you were born? (Not suggesting that your parents would ever do such a thing, obvs).Off_it said:
OK. Fair enough.ShootersHillGuru said:
No idea what that comments got to do with the topic. All things in life are better served in their natural place. The natural place for the marbles isn’t in my opinion The British Museum. Nothing to do with how they got there for me. It’s about where they should be.Off_it said:
No no no. "We" , collectively, "stole" them and so "we" need to give them back, apparently. Whilst we tell ourselves what terrible people "we" are, despite the fact - which is a bona fide fact - that all of this happened many many years ago and before any of us were born.SporadicAddick said:Inspired by this thread (not really, it was planned a long time ago) I was at The Acropolis yesterday. I asked our (Greek) tour guide about the marbles, and thought his response was interesting.
The nationalists want them back, but for most Greeks it’s a non issue. On balance many believe that having them seen by more people in The British Museum inspires people to visit Greece.
his exact words were “I don’t care that they are in England”. This from a man that was clearly passionate about his subject.
It’s also worth noting that If they were returned, they wouldn’t be displayed any where near The Parthenon. Instead they would be in a museum about 1/2 a mile away, and seen by far fewer people from around the world than they are today.As someone who believes they should remain in the British Museum, I recognise this might come across as confirmation bias as I’m sure a different guide may have given a different answer, but it’s the answer I heard.
But by that rationale I suppose you have nothing in your house made of gold then, or wood, or cotton - or anything not from your garden? Because surely that belongs in it's "natural place".
And I still want London Bridge back, because here is where it naturally belongs.
My point being that your argument is flawed if you don't consider how and why things ended up where they are.
That's my point. You have to look at how and why something ended up where it is, not just you should give something "back" because someone happens to want it.
If your grandad sold something - a family heir loom - to my grandad then you might not like it, but you're not having it back. If my grandad nicked it then it's yours, with pleasure.
Are you suggesting "we" stole them or not then? If they were legitimately acquired and then gifted to the museum then why wouldn't that be the best place for them?
Surely the same would apply to just about any exhibition in any museum if that were the case?
And you again seem to be confusing your own personal views and opinions - "it would be best viewed" - with actual facts.1 -
sam3110 said:What if they were originally from somewhere that's now underwater? Should we take them back and dump them in the sea and say "anyone that wants to view these need to dive down to see them"
yes
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