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The English football cup comps are a blight on the game - here's an idea for reform
PragueAddick
Posts: 22,143
So, disgruntled with the draws for both Charlton and my Czech team, Viktoria Plzen (for polar opposite reasons), I've been giving some thought to how to fix it. Or to be truthful, the International Addicks gave me the thought how to fix it...anyway, here goes.
The number of games we have to play in leagues One and Two especially is bloody ridiculous. No other European league has 24 clubs. So what do we do? We add not just one, not two but three cup competitions on top. And then we complain about all our injuries.
So for starters both the two mickey mouse cups should be axed. Yes I know the Carabaou provides a 'path to Europe' but not much longer, you'll see. No other European league gets any qualification from other than their main cup competition, and they all get pretty pissed off about ours.
Then there's the devaluation of the FA Cup. Making it the only Cup isn't enough, we need to restore the Cup glamour, which is all about the little teams taking on the big boys. Right then. In the 3rd round and 4th round, all the League One and below teams who got through from the 2nd round will be at home to an FAPL or Champ club. Magic of the Cup, guaranteed. Whaddya think?
It is of course a completely unthinkable idea, it would be thrown out of virtually every boardroom in the country. After all it is the League One/Two owners who think the PapaJohns is a good idea, because Wemberlee, despite only two of the 48 clubs getting there and the other 46 nursing injuries and operating losses from every game, trying to get there.
And the thing is, as i hinted, this is exactly how it works in another European country. And no, it's not Latvia.
The number of games we have to play in leagues One and Two especially is bloody ridiculous. No other European league has 24 clubs. So what do we do? We add not just one, not two but three cup competitions on top. And then we complain about all our injuries.
So for starters both the two mickey mouse cups should be axed. Yes I know the Carabaou provides a 'path to Europe' but not much longer, you'll see. No other European league gets any qualification from other than their main cup competition, and they all get pretty pissed off about ours.
Then there's the devaluation of the FA Cup. Making it the only Cup isn't enough, we need to restore the Cup glamour, which is all about the little teams taking on the big boys. Right then. In the 3rd round and 4th round, all the League One and below teams who got through from the 2nd round will be at home to an FAPL or Champ club. Magic of the Cup, guaranteed. Whaddya think?
It is of course a completely unthinkable idea, it would be thrown out of virtually every boardroom in the country. After all it is the League One/Two owners who think the PapaJohns is a good idea, because Wemberlee, despite only two of the 48 clubs getting there and the other 46 nursing injuries and operating losses from every game, trying to get there.
And the thing is, as i hinted, this is exactly how it works in another European country. And no, it's not Latvia.
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Comments
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Simple solution.
Give the winners of the FA Cup a champions league place.
Scrap the league cup.
Restore the full members cup. Remove the u21/23s from the pappa vans paints cup. Both straight knockout but spilt the the money, some how, between all 92 clubs.
East isn't it
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Personally just look at any cup comps as a route to a bit of a day out for Clubs like us, as opposed to going to Europe0
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Cafc43v3r said:Simple solution.
Give the winners of the FA Cup a champions league place.
Scrap the league cup.
Restore the full members cup. Remove the u21/23s from the pappa vans paints cup. Both straight knockout but spilt the the money, some how, between all 92 clubs.
East isn't it
So in the last 20 years we would have had just 2 new teams in Champions League with that rule.
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Depends if the old runner up rule got in the Champions League if the FA Cup winner was already in the top four - If that was the case, enjoy the thought of the 2004/05 Champions League season.MrOneLung said:Cafc43v3r said:Simple solution.
Give the winners of the FA Cup a champions league place.
Scrap the league cup.
Restore the full members cup. Remove the u21/23s from the pappa vans paints cup. Both straight knockout but spilt the the money, some how, between all 92 clubs.
East isn't itSo in the last 20 years we would have had just 2 new teams in Champions League with that rule. 1 -
The EFL won't give up the League Cup. It's the only way they can really get their claws into the big boys in the Premier League in a competition over which they control. Shut it down and they're entirely at the mercy of what the Premier League decides to give them.
The Premier League clubs won't give the League Trophy now they've effectively squeezed their b-teams into it. If it got scrapped, we'd be hearing much more noise about integrating b-teams into the pyramid.
The only suggestion I could actually see happening is the "seeding" of the Premier League teams in the early rounds of cup draws. Can't see why the FA, EFL and Premier League wouldn't all agree that keeping the big boys apart in the early rounds in a good thing. It'll lead to guaranteed money spinners in the later rounds after all the minnows are knocked out.1 -
The Cup comps aren't a blight on the game, the Premier League is.
The top flight needs to be taken down a peg or ten not just in terms of money distribution, which has helped skew the major domestic honours towards a select few, but also with respect to control and power.20 -
Because you want one or two "big" ties in the 3rd and 4th rounds.Callumcafc said:The EFL won't give up the League Cup. It's the only way they can really get their claws into the big boys in the Premier League in a competition over which they control. Shut it down and they're entirely at the mercy of what the Premier League decides to give them.
The Premier League clubs won't give the League Trophy now they've effectively squeezed their b-teams into it. If it got scrapped, we'd be hearing much more noise about integrating b-teams into the pyramid.
The only suggestion I could actually see happening is the "seeding" of the Premier League teams in the early rounds of cup draws. Can't see why the FA, EFL and Premier League wouldn't all agree that keeping the big boys apart in the early rounds in a good thing. It'll lead to guaranteed money spinners in the later rounds after all the minnows are knocked out.
The problem with the FA Cup, and arguably the league cup as well, is that 3 or 4 teams can play their second string sides in every round until the semi final. Then take it seriously.
The likes of Spurs, West ham, Newcastle, Man United now, would all take it more seriously if there was a champions league place at the end of it.0 -
I don't think that would be as effective as you think. Point made above that it's always the same sides winning it anyway and so wouldn't really shake things up at all.Cafc43v3r said:
Because you want one or two "big" ties in the 3rd and 4th rounds.Callumcafc said:The EFL won't give up the League Cup. It's the only way they can really get their claws into the big boys in the Premier League in a competition over which they control. Shut it down and they're entirely at the mercy of what the Premier League decides to give them.
The Premier League clubs won't give the League Trophy now they've effectively squeezed their b-teams into it. If it got scrapped, we'd be hearing much more noise about integrating b-teams into the pyramid.
The only suggestion I could actually see happening is the "seeding" of the Premier League teams in the early rounds of cup draws. Can't see why the FA, EFL and Premier League wouldn't all agree that keeping the big boys apart in the early rounds in a good thing. It'll lead to guaranteed money spinners in the later rounds after all the minnows are knocked out.
The problem with the FA Cup, and arguably the league cup as well, is that 3 or 4 teams can play their second string sides in every round until the semi final. Then take it seriously.
The likes of Spurs, West ham, Newcastle, Man United now, would all take it more seriously if there was a champions league place at the end of it.0 -
Keep the FA Cup & League Cups as they are. Stop regionalising the League cup & make the Premiership clubs enter at the 1st round stage as it was in the past.
Then ditch the fucking Pizza Hut cup.
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@Cafc43v3r There's no way I can see the rest of European football agreeing with your idea, even if we scrap the League Cup and its back door into the Europa League. Why should we alone have a Cup route into the UCL? Especially as everyone can see how we have devalued it.
By the way the country that already has this system is Germany. The country that most admires our football *traditions*, even though we have chucked most of them away. The DFB Pokal actually starts at the beginning of the season. There is a path in for non-league clubs but the big clubs are in the 1st round, and the magic is very much there. As Big Al @GlassHalfFull can tell you, our friends and former partners in pain Carl Zeiss Jena were so excited by the visit of VFB Stuttgart that they were allowed to put up extra temporary stands just for the game. There are so many juicy fixtures. This season I was transfixed by the Baltic Sea derby between Lubeck and Hansa Rostock. Think Hartlepool v Newcastle and you get the picture (Lubeck won too).
Won't happen though, will it? We lost the soul of English football when the FAPL was allowed to set up as a separate entity0 - Sponsored links:
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Why do we need the rest of European football to agree with how we run our cup competitions?!4
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For starters... The League Cup is three years older than the Bundesliga.se9addick said:Why do we need the rest of European football to agree with how we run our cup competitions?!0 -
I’d scrap the JPT and make the League Cup just the Football League (no PL teams). Winner of the League Cup gets promoted to premier league4
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Do they actually have to agree? I was under the impression we have x number of champions league places, y number of euro league places and z number of conference places. Its up to us how we dish them out. The league cup place, for example, isn't an extra place is it?PragueAddick said:@Cafc43v3r There's no way I can see the rest of European football agreeing with your idea, even if we scrap the League Cup and its back door into the Europa League. Why should we alone have a Cup route into the UCL? Especially as everyone can see how we have devalued it.
By the way the country that already has this system is Germany. The country that most admires our football *traditions*, even though we have chucked most of them away. The DFB Pokal actually starts at the beginning of the season. There is a path in for non-league clubs but the big clubs are in the 1st round, and the magic is very much there. As Big Al @GlassHalfFull can tell you, our friends and former partners in pain Carl Zeiss Jena were so excited by the visit of VFB Stuttgart that they were allowed to put up extra temporary stands just for the game. There are so many juicy fixtures. This season I was transfixed by the Baltic Sea derby between Lubeck and Hansa Rostock. Think Hartlepool v Newcastle and you get the picture (Lubeck won too).
Won't happen though, will it? We lost the soul of English football when the FAPL was allowed to set up as a separate entity3 -
It would have a massive effect on the early rounds. Especially if you backed dated the place to the last team in it that hadn't already qualified. We wouldn't have to play a Premier league reserve team in the 3rd round. That would make it better.Callumcafc said:
I don't think that would be as effective as you think. Point made above that it's always the same sides winning it anyway and so wouldn't really shake things up at all.Cafc43v3r said:
Because you want one or two "big" ties in the 3rd and 4th rounds.Callumcafc said:The EFL won't give up the League Cup. It's the only way they can really get their claws into the big boys in the Premier League in a competition over which they control. Shut it down and they're entirely at the mercy of what the Premier League decides to give them.
The Premier League clubs won't give the League Trophy now they've effectively squeezed their b-teams into it. If it got scrapped, we'd be hearing much more noise about integrating b-teams into the pyramid.
The only suggestion I could actually see happening is the "seeding" of the Premier League teams in the early rounds of cup draws. Can't see why the FA, EFL and Premier League wouldn't all agree that keeping the big boys apart in the early rounds in a good thing. It'll lead to guaranteed money spinners in the later rounds after all the minnows are knocked out.
The problem with the FA Cup, and arguably the league cup as well, is that 3 or 4 teams can play their second string sides in every round until the semi final. Then take it seriously.
The likes of Spurs, West ham, Newcastle, Man United now, would all take it more seriously if there was a champions league place at the end of it.
You could end up having say Chelsea, Man City and Liverpool all winning their quater final and have the last one as say Barnsley v Birmingham for a place in the champions league.0 -
I was going to write that we don't, but they need to agree if we send the Spanners into Europe as a result of them winning some second rate competition. However maybe @Cafc43v3r is right that it is not an extra or specific place. I am not sure.se9addick said:Why do we need the rest of European football to agree with how we run our cup competitions?!0 -
Nice one. But here's the thing. I'm an old git with many memories, and an awful lot of them are FA Cup memories. Selhurst 68, (had flu so I missed Highbury in the next round). Being one of the 5,000 that went to Ipswich when Paul Walsh was emerging. 3-0 at Portsmouth when i was a student there. Spurs away, and the replay.ForeverAddickted said:
For starters... The League Cup is three years older than the Bundesliga.se9addick said:Why do we need the rest of European football to agree with how we run our cup competitions?!
I haven't got a League Cup memory. Not a single one. How about you?1 -
I'm all in favour of upping the profile of the FA Cup, but I don't think seeding in Rounds 3 and 4 is the answer though. It might increase the chances of a small team getting to play at Anfield or Old Trafford or wherever, but it would have the detrimental effect of stifling lower-division progress to the latter stages. One of the things that makes the FA Cup less appealing than it used to be is the level to which it is now dominated by a few familiar names. The last thing the competition needs is to seal-in that disparity by ensuring the smaller clubs are eliminated early on.4
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If our European neighbours want more spurs in the competitions, they should be better at football and earn them, like we did.PragueAddick said:@Cafc43v3r There's no way I can see the rest of European football agreeing with your idea, even if we scrap the League Cup and its back door into the Europa League. Why should we alone have a Cup route into the UCL? Especially as everyone can see how we have devalued it.
By the way the country that already has this system is Germany. The country that most admires our football *traditions*, even though we have chucked most of them away. The DFB Pokal actually starts at the beginning of the season. There is a path in for non-league clubs but the big clubs are in the 1st round, and the magic is very much there. As Big Al @GlassHalfFull can tell you, our friends and former partners in pain Carl Zeiss Jena were so excited by the visit of VFB Stuttgart that they were allowed to put up extra temporary stands just for the game. There are so many juicy fixtures. This season I was transfixed by the Baltic Sea derby between Lubeck and Hansa Rostock. Think Hartlepool v Newcastle and you get the picture (Lubeck won too).
Won't happen though, will it? We lost the soul of English football when the FAPL was allowed to set up as a separate entityIf they don’t agree to how we distribute our spots, fuck em, no one is asking to take control of their distribution.
FA Cup: CL
League Cup: Europa
the meaningless comps, scrap, or make optional.0 -
PragueAddick said:
Nice one. But here's the thing. I'm an old git with many memories, and an awful lot of them are FA Cup memories. Selhurst 68, (had flu so I missed Highbury in the next round). Being one of the 5,000 that went to Ipswich when Paul Walsh was emerging. 3-0 at Portsmouth when i was a student there. Spurs away, and the replay.ForeverAddickted said:
For starters... The League Cup is three years older than the Bundesliga.se9addick said:Why do we need the rest of European football to agree with how we run our cup competitions?!
I haven't got a League Cup memory. Not a single one. How about you?
Wycombe at home?5 - Sponsored links:
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PragueAddick said:come on Prague how about Stoke City at home and Sheffield Utd both cracking games against top opponents. Had we beaten Stoke we would have played Arsenal . A few on here remember Division two Man Utd v Division 3 Charlton Peter Hunt scoring first for us at Old Trafford.
.QPR away and a 1-1 draw was a hell of a night with Colin Powell v Stan Bowles.
Best not mention Chesterfield .
yes all 50 or 40 years ago but that’s football.
Nice one. But here's the thing. I'm an old git with many memories, and an awful lot of them are FA Cup memories. Selhurst 68, (had flu so I missed Highbury in the next round). Being one of the 5,000 that went to Ipswich when Paul Walsh was emerging. 3-0 at Portsmouth when i was a student there. Spurs away, and the replay.ForeverAddickted said:
For starters... The League Cup is three years older than the Bundesliga.se9addick said:Why do we need the rest of European football to agree with how we run our cup competitions?!
I haven't got a League Cup memory. Not a single one. How about you?
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Surely we have x number of places for European competitions and we use one to make a cup competition more appealing. Can't see how Europe has an issue with that.0
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I was going to say that but then remembered when we knocked out Chelsea away by drawing with them.Athletico Charlton said:PragueAddick said:
Nice one. But here's the thing. I'm an old git with many memories, and an awful lot of them are FA Cup memories. Selhurst 68, (had flu so I missed Highbury in the next round). Being one of the 5,000 that went to Ipswich when Paul Walsh was emerging. 3-0 at Portsmouth when i was a student there. Spurs away, and the replay.ForeverAddickted said:
For starters... The League Cup is three years older than the Bundesliga.se9addick said:Why do we need the rest of European football to agree with how we run our cup competitions?!
I haven't got a League Cup memory. Not a single one. How about you?
Wycombe at home?2 -
I remember us playing Liverpool at the Valley in the League Cup in the pre-Prem days (probably 1996) which was a massive deal at the time. In fact, it would be a massive deal now, which is why I’m not keen to get rid of the League Cup. Doing so would halve the chance of the smaller teams, which make up the majority of the 92, getting the chance to play a big side.PragueAddick said:
Nice one. But here's the thing. I'm an old git with many memories, and an awful lot of them are FA Cup memories. Selhurst 68, (had flu so I missed Highbury in the next round). Being one of the 5,000 that went to Ipswich when Paul Walsh was emerging. 3-0 at Portsmouth when i was a student there. Spurs away, and the replay.ForeverAddickted said:
For starters... The League Cup is three years older than the Bundesliga.se9addick said:Why do we need the rest of European football to agree with how we run our cup competitions?!
I haven't got a League Cup memory. Not a single one. How about you?
I adore ground hopping around Europe, Germany is my favourite and what makes it special is every place has its own, unique, football culture. But no other nation on earth has the depth of professional game that English football has. Over 100 professional teams, five non-regionalised divisions and 140 years of professional football. In a country of 55 million. It’s crazy and there is no comparison to those stats anywhere else. So if we do things a little differently here then it’s no surprise, and I don’t think we should change just to align with Germany, Czechia or Latvia.4 -
Bring back the Anglo-Italian Cup1
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QPR away Keith Peacock’s best ever game, replay at the Valley 30k there.PragueAddick said:
Nice one. But here's the thing. I'm an old git with many memories, and an awful lot of them are FA Cup memories. Selhurst 68, (had flu so I missed Highbury in the next round). Being one of the 5,000 that went to Ipswich when Paul Walsh was emerging. 3-0 at Portsmouth when i was a student there. Spurs away, and the replay.ForeverAddickted said:
For starters... The League Cup is three years older than the Bundesliga.se9addick said:Why do we need the rest of European football to agree with how we run our cup competitions?!
I haven't got a League Cup memory. Not a single one. How about you?
Don’t you remember those?1 -
I think there should be a cup for teams that get knocked out in the first round of other cups. The winners could automatically qualify for the Intertoto Cup.
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we've been promoted with a draw too, I wouldn't knock it!Scoham said:
I was going to say that but then remembered when we knocked out Chelsea away by drawing with them.Athletico Charlton said:PragueAddick said:
Nice one. But here's the thing. I'm an old git with many memories, and an awful lot of them are FA Cup memories. Selhurst 68, (had flu so I missed Highbury in the next round). Being one of the 5,000 that went to Ipswich when Paul Walsh was emerging. 3-0 at Portsmouth when i was a student there. Spurs away, and the replay.ForeverAddickted said:
For starters... The League Cup is three years older than the Bundesliga.se9addick said:Why do we need the rest of European football to agree with how we run our cup competitions?!
I haven't got a League Cup memory. Not a single one. How about you?
Wycombe at home?0 -
The 2 legs against Wimbledon in 95/96PragueAddick said:
Nice one. But here's the thing. I'm an old git with many memories, and an awful lot of them are FA Cup memories. Selhurst 68, (had flu so I missed Highbury in the next round). Being one of the 5,000 that went to Ipswich when Paul Walsh was emerging. 3-0 at Portsmouth when i was a student there. Spurs away, and the replay.ForeverAddickted said:
For starters... The League Cup is three years older than the Bundesliga.se9addick said:Why do we need the rest of European football to agree with how we run our cup competitions?!
I haven't got a League Cup memory. Not a single one. How about you?
The game against Liverpool at The Valley 96/97
The win at Chelsea in 05/064 -
No one would have a problem with the Pizza Cup if we hadn’t had to take part in it for 9 of the last 14 seasons.5
