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Sandgaard ownership discussion 2022-3 onwards (Meeting with CAST p138)

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  • swordfish said:
    _MrDick said:
    It's depressing reading those accounts. Technically, we're insolvent and it's only a matter of time before Sandgaard says enough is enough :(
    If you read many football Club accounts, it's the same picture. A reliance on, and commitment made by, the owners to keep funding the Club's losses which are technically insolvent, ensuring that they can continue to be treated as going concerns.

    Sheffield Wednesday's make for alarming reading, but they have an apparently rich benefactor in Mr Chansiri, whose pockets APPEAR to be very deep. He has a wealthy family, but maintains he funds it from his own sources, although on the face of it, the income streams from his business interests wouldn't necessarily support that claim. He's into them for more than £200M already as I understand it, with the Club more than £150M in debt (about twice what Derby owed). A fan of theirs I often talk with, himself an accountant, doesn't seem to be unduly alarmed by it either, but I'm not sure he speaks for all tbf.

    It seems it's just the reality of football club finances with the lure of jam tomorrow on making it to the promised land.
    football club finances have been like that for the vast majority of clubs since the founding of the football leagues. it is why Charlton have moved ground so often in the 116 years of its existence, trying to increase revenue to avoid running a deficit. 
    it never worked.
  • Gribbo said:
    supaclive said:
    Redhenry said:
    Redhenry said:
    supaclive said:
    "expect to pay him back" is not "of course he will be paid back"

    Why does our owner need a £350,000 loan.... well, I will tell you why... he doesn't have enough cash in the bank to run CAFC properly.

    We're not unlike other clubs in that regard.   Football is a crazily expensive business to be in.   The issue is TS is not a fan and has no allegiance to us. 

    Our future looks bottom half of division 3 and downwards right now I am afraid.
    Source?
    for what? if you mean the 350k its been confirmed by TS himself. 
    Of course not! The statement that he doesn't have enough cash in the bank to run CAFC properly. 
    And got a load of likes.
    He is cutting staff left, right and centre
    The squad added free transfers in the close season
    The club shop doesn't have anything in it
    He borrowed £350k from a fan

    If you have enough cash to properly run the club, you don't do that.  Nothing is cheaper than your own cash.

    We are losing millions 
    It's a crazy business

    You have focused on one part of my post

    TS is NOT a fan
    He won't put his hand in his pocket like a fan would to give their club a chance of competing 

    We will not be able to compete in this division if our current owner continues operating like this 
    Don't necessarily mean he's out of cash, it could also mean that he's not willing to put anymore of his own in. Which is just as worrying 
    Which is why we are stuck with bottom half mediocrity
  • supaclive said:
    Gribbo said:
    supaclive said:
    Redhenry said:
    Redhenry said:
    supaclive said:
    "expect to pay him back" is not "of course he will be paid back"

    Why does our owner need a £350,000 loan.... well, I will tell you why... he doesn't have enough cash in the bank to run CAFC properly.

    We're not unlike other clubs in that regard.   Football is a crazily expensive business to be in.   The issue is TS is not a fan and has no allegiance to us. 

    Our future looks bottom half of division 3 and downwards right now I am afraid.
    Source?
    for what? if you mean the 350k its been confirmed by TS himself. 
    Of course not! The statement that he doesn't have enough cash in the bank to run CAFC properly. 
    And got a load of likes.
    He is cutting staff left, right and centre
    The squad added free transfers in the close season
    The club shop doesn't have anything in it
    He borrowed £350k from a fan

    If you have enough cash to properly run the club, you don't do that.  Nothing is cheaper than your own cash.

    We are losing millions 
    It's a crazy business

    You have focused on one part of my post

    TS is NOT a fan
    He won't put his hand in his pocket like a fan would to give their club a chance of competing 

    We will not be able to compete in this division if our current owner continues operating like this 
    Don't necessarily mean he's out of cash, it could also mean that he's not willing to put anymore of his own in. Which is just as worrying 
    Which is why we are stuck with bottom half mediocrity
    It means that the losses are not small change to him, they are running at around   2% to 4% of is wealth every season depending on if has assets of 150 million to 250 million pounds. Which is why I say that to run an English football club you need to be a multi billionaire. Then those losses drop to say 0.2% to 0.5% each season for example.
  • I should say of the billionaire's assets.
  • CafcWest said:
    Some interesting stuff in there.  I'm sure someone on here will do a thorough analysis.  Page 29 - a note says that basically if we don't make the Premier by 30th June, 2023 (some chance!) then the £7m owing to the previous directors changes materially...assume it is re-evaluated upwards...as £7m has been outstanding for some time...
    What does this mean? Does it go up? 
  • JamesSeed said:
    swordfish said:
    _MrDick said:
    It's depressing reading those accounts. Technically, we're insolvent and it's only a matter of time before Sandgaard says enough is enough :(
    If you read many football Club accounts, it's the same picture. A reliance on, and commitment made by, the owners to keep funding the Club's losses which are technically insolvent, ensuring that they can continue to be treated as going concerns.

    Sheffield Wednesday's make for alarming reading, but they have an apparently rich benefactor in Mr Chansiri, whose pockets APPEAR to be very deep. He has a wealthy family, but maintains he funds it from his own sources, although on the face of it, the income streams from his business interests wouldn't necessarily support that claim. He's into them for more than £200M already as I understand it, with the Club more than £150M in debt (about twice what Derby owed). A fan of theirs I often talk with, himself an accountant, doesn't seem to be unduly alarmed by it either, but I'm not sure he speaks for all tbf.

    It seems it's just the reality of football club finances with the lure of jam tomorrow on making it to the promised land.
    It’s a numbers game. There are only 22 clubs in the Premier League, and 72 clubs dreaming of joining them. 
    20
  • supaclive said:
    Redhenry said:
    Redhenry said:
    supaclive said:
    "expect to pay him back" is not "of course he will be paid back"

    Why does our owner need a £350,000 loan.... well, I will tell you why... he doesn't have enough cash in the bank to run CAFC properly.

    We're not unlike other clubs in that regard.   Football is a crazily expensive business to be in.   The issue is TS is not a fan and has no allegiance to us. 

    Our future looks bottom half of division 3 and downwards right now I am afraid.
    Source?
    for what? if you mean the 350k its been confirmed by TS himself. 
    Of course not! The statement that he doesn't have enough cash in the bank to run CAFC properly. 
    And got a load of likes.
    He is cutting staff left, right and centre
    The squad added free transfers in the close season
    The club shop doesn't have anything in it
    He borrowed £350k from a fan

    If you have enough cash to properly run the club, you don't do that.  Nothing is cheaper than your own cash.

    We are losing millions 
    It's a crazy business

    You have focused on one part of my post

    TS is NOT a fan
    He won't put his hand in his pocket like a fan would to give their club a chance of competing 

    We will not be able to compete in this division if our current owner continues operating like this 
    Not saying you are wrong, but none of those reasons imo signify that he doesn’t have enough cash in the bank to run CAFC as an ongoing concern. 
  • CafcWest said:
    Some interesting stuff in there.  I'm sure someone on here will do a thorough analysis.  Page 29 - a note says that basically if we don't make the Premier by 30th June, 2023 (some chance!) then the £7m owing to the previous directors changes materially...assume it is re-evaluated upwards...as £7m has been outstanding for some time...
    What does this mean? Does it go up? 
    They still get back £7M I think.

    But in today's money it's not worth what is was when they loaned it due to inflation, so in the books it has to be  discounted to be shown at net present value,  reported to be £6.8M tin this set of accounts to comply with accounting conventions.

    Don't worry about it.
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  • The sensible, if immoral, thing to do would be to pay Sandgaard his £1 for the club and then put it into administration thus wiping out all the debts. Then buy it out of administration debt free. That at least would mean the new owners would be able to use any money they had investing in decent players.
    This would not solve the ownership of the ground issue, which will stay until Duchatelet or his family decide to sell. But the example of the Glikstens might warn us that that could on for thirty years or more.
  • supaclive said:
    Gribbo said:
    supaclive said:
    Redhenry said:
    Redhenry said:
    supaclive said:
    "expect to pay him back" is not "of course he will be paid back"

    Why does our owner need a £350,000 loan.... well, I will tell you why... he doesn't have enough cash in the bank to run CAFC properly.

    We're not unlike other clubs in that regard.   Football is a crazily expensive business to be in.   The issue is TS is not a fan and has no allegiance to us. 

    Our future looks bottom half of division 3 and downwards right now I am afraid.
    Source?
    for what? if you mean the 350k its been confirmed by TS himself. 
    Of course not! The statement that he doesn't have enough cash in the bank to run CAFC properly. 
    And got a load of likes.
    He is cutting staff left, right and centre
    The squad added free transfers in the close season
    The club shop doesn't have anything in it
    He borrowed £350k from a fan

    If you have enough cash to properly run the club, you don't do that.  Nothing is cheaper than your own cash.

    We are losing millions 
    It's a crazy business

    You have focused on one part of my post

    TS is NOT a fan
    He won't put his hand in his pocket like a fan would to give their club a chance of competing 

    We will not be able to compete in this division if our current owner continues operating like this 
    Don't necessarily mean he's out of cash, it could also mean that he's not willing to put anymore of his own in. Which is just as worrying 
    Which is why we are stuck with bottom half mediocrity
    Quite
  • edited October 2022
    swordfish said:
    CafcWest said:
    Some interesting stuff in there.  I'm sure someone on here will do a thorough analysis.  Page 29 - a note says that basically if we don't make the Premier by 30th June, 2023 (some chance!) then the £7m owing to the previous directors changes materially...assume it is re-evaluated upwards...as £7m has been outstanding for some time...
    What does this mean? Does it go up? 
    They still get back £7M I think.

    But in today's money it's not worth what is was when they loaned it due to inflation, so in the books it has to be  discounted to be shown at net present value,  reported to be £6.8M tin this set of accounts to comply with accounting conventions.

    Don't worry about it.
    Yes, but it’s about future inflation not past inflation. It’s basically that the £7m won’t be £7m in today’s money as it won’t become repayable in 2023 (even if it’s triggered it’s repayable over a period of years). It’s not to do with loan agreement of itself and the debt will still be £7m.


  • swordfish said:
    CafcWest said:
    Some interesting stuff in there.  I'm sure someone on here will do a thorough analysis.  Page 29 - a note says that basically if we don't make the Premier by 30th June, 2023 (some chance!) then the £7m owing to the previous directors changes materially...assume it is re-evaluated upwards...as £7m has been outstanding for some time...
    What does this mean? Does it go up? 
    They still get back £7M I think.

    But in today's money it's not worth what is was when they loaned it due to inflation, so in the books it has to be  discounted to be shown at net present value,  reported to be £6.8M tin this set of accounts to comply with accounting conventions.

    Don't worry about it.
    Yes, but it’s about future inflation not past inflation. It’s basically that the £7m won’t be £7m in today’s money as it won’t become repayable in 2023 (even if it’s triggered it’s repayable over a period of years). It’s not to do with loan agreement of itself and the debt will still be £7m.


    Of course it is!  Thanks for correcting me. I'm too long out of the job now and trying to forget about FRS's and other accounting conventions. B)
  • I would like to ask a question and I ask this simply because I feel impotent, yes bring on the one liners lol, while watching our club slide into the quicksand of debt. The question is 'What ideas would lifers have to reduce the debt of the club ? A couple of rules though, it doesn't have to guarantee success on the playing field but it must have some feasibility. I think there are enough Brains on here to come up with some answers. 
  • Bailey said:
    I would like to ask a question and I ask this simply because I feel impotent, yes bring on the one liners lol, while watching our club slide into the quicksand of debt. The question is 'What ideas would lifers have to reduce the debt of the club ? A couple of rules though, it doesn't have to guarantee success on the playing field but it must have some feasibility. I think there are enough Brains on here to come up with some answers. 
    Form a consortium through a bunch of investors who all put in "x" amount to raise the funds to negotiate with RD for the freeholds and extra funds for investment in the team.  Set a target of payback within 3 - 5 years or reaching prem. when all consortium members get back their investment + an agreed percentage...TS has a vehicle to enable this (and it already invests in Charlton): https://www.sandgaardcapital.com/.
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  • Bailey said:
    I would like to ask a question and I ask this simply because I feel impotent, yes bring on the one liners lol, while watching our club slide into the quicksand of debt. The question is 'What ideas would lifers have to reduce the debt of the club ? A couple of rules though, it doesn't have to guarantee success on the playing field but it must have some feasibility. I think there are enough Brains on here to come up with some answers. 
    Employ professional business management with relevant experience and let them manage?
    Absolutely Airman, that almost didn't pass the feasibility test simply because of Sandgaards head in the sand attitude.
  • edited October 2022
    Southbank said:
    The sensible, if immoral, thing to do would be to pay Sandgaard his £1 for the club and then put it into administration thus wiping out all the debts. Then buy it out of administration debt free. That at least would mean the new owners would be able to use any money they had investing in decent players.
    This would not solve the ownership of the ground issue, which will stay until Duchatelet or his family decide to sell. But the example of the Glikstens might warn us that that could on for thirty years or more.
    The £7m debt would not be wiped by administration because it is secured as the first charge over the freehold assets as well as the football club. It ranks above Sandgaard’s loans to the club, too. 

    Either it would fall back on RD as the freeholder or Sandgaard would be liable for it because he has entered into some private arrangement over it, although the latter is pure speculation. 
  • Southbank said:
    The sensible, if immoral, thing to do would be to pay Sandgaard his £1 for the club and then put it into administration thus wiping out all the debts. Then buy it out of administration debt free. That at least would mean the new owners would be able to use any money they had investing in decent players.
    This would not solve the ownership of the ground issue, which will stay until Duchatelet or his family decide to sell. But the example of the Glikstens might warn us that that could on for thirty years or more.
    The £7m debt would not be wiped by administration because it is secured as the first charge over the freehold assets as well as the football club. It ranks above Sandgaard’s loans to the club, too. 

    Either it would fall back on RD as the freeholder or Sandgaard would be liable for it because he has entered into some private arrangement over it, although the latter is pure speculation. 
    What? is it with this seven-million-pound debit that makes people obsess about it. it is the least of the clubs' worries. 
    If you could find an owner who could buy out TS and afford the day-to-day costs of running the club, he would be wealthy enough to pay such a trivial sum in football terms.
  • CafcWest said:
    Bailey said:
    I would like to ask a question and I ask this simply because I feel impotent, yes bring on the one liners lol, while watching our club slide into the quicksand of debt. The question is 'What ideas would lifers have to reduce the debt of the club ? A couple of rules though, it doesn't have to guarantee success on the playing field but it must have some feasibility. I think there are enough Brains on here to come up with some answers. 
    Form a consortium through a bunch of investors who all put in "x" amount to raise the funds to negotiate with RD for the freeholds and extra funds for investment in the team.  Set a target of payback within 3 - 5 years or reaching prem. when all consortium members get back their investment + an agreed percentage...TS has a vehicle to enable this (and it already invests in Charlton): https://www.sandgaardcapital.com/.
    That's a great idea but I can see a problem with enough people with the capital as well as dealing with the problem of Dutchelet's price increases when he thinks he has a fish on the line. 
  • edited October 2022
    supaclive said:
    Redhenry said:
    Redhenry said:
    supaclive said:
    "expect to pay him back" is not "of course he will be paid back"

    Why does our owner need a £350,000 loan.... well, I will tell you why... he doesn't have enough cash in the bank to run CAFC properly.

    We're not unlike other clubs in that regard.   Football is a crazily expensive business to be in.   The issue is TS is not a fan and has no allegiance to us. 

    Our future looks bottom half of division 3 and downwards right now I am afraid.
    Source?
    for what? if you mean the 350k its been confirmed by TS himself. 
    Of course not! The statement that he doesn't have enough cash in the bank to run CAFC properly. 
    And got a load of likes.
    He is cutting staff left, right and centre
    The squad added free transfers in the close season
    The club shop doesn't have anything in it
    He borrowed £350k from a fan

    If you have enough cash to properly run the club, you don't do that.  Nothing is cheaper than your own cash.

    We are losing millions 
    It's a crazy business

    You have focused on one part of my post

    TS is NOT a fan
    He won't put his hand in his pocket like a fan would to give their club a chance of competing 

    We will not be able to compete in this division if our current owner continues operating like this 
    Not sure about those lyrics, how does the tune go? It might work…
    is it a Billy Bragg inspired track?
  • Redhenry said:
    Redhenry said:
    supaclive said:
    "expect to pay him back" is not "of course he will be paid back"

    Why does our owner need a £350,000 loan.... well, I will tell you why... he doesn't have enough cash in the bank to run CAFC properly.

    We're not unlike other clubs in that regard.   Football is a crazily expensive business to be in.   The issue is TS is not a fan and has no allegiance to us. 

    Our future looks bottom half of division 3 and downwards right now I am afraid.
    Source?
    for what? if you mean the 350k its been confirmed by TS himself. 
    Of course not! The statement that he doesn't have enough cash in the bank to run CAFC properly. 
    And got a load of likes.
    Well he clearly doesn’t does he. 
  • JamesSeed said:
    swordfish said:
    _MrDick said:
    It's depressing reading those accounts. Technically, we're insolvent and it's only a matter of time before Sandgaard says enough is enough :(
    If you read many football Club accounts, it's the same picture. A reliance on, and commitment made by, the owners to keep funding the Club's losses which are technically insolvent, ensuring that they can continue to be treated as going concerns.

    Sheffield Wednesday's make for alarming reading, but they have an apparently rich benefactor in Mr Chansiri, whose pockets APPEAR to be very deep. He has a wealthy family, but maintains he funds it from his own sources, although on the face of it, the income streams from his business interests wouldn't necessarily support that claim. He's into them for more than £200M already as I understand it, with the Club more than £150M in debt (about twice what Derby owed). A fan of theirs I often talk with, himself an accountant, doesn't seem to be unduly alarmed by it either, but I'm not sure he speaks for all tbf.

    It seems it's just the reality of football club finances with the lure of jam tomorrow on making it to the promised land.
    It’s a numbers game. There are only 22 clubs in the Premier League, and 72 clubs dreaming of joining them. 
    20
    Yup. Knew that, but covid brain intervened. 
  • Redhenry said:
    supaclive said:
    Redhenry said:
    Redhenry said:
    supaclive said:
    "expect to pay him back" is not "of course he will be paid back"

    Why does our owner need a £350,000 loan.... well, I will tell you why... he doesn't have enough cash in the bank to run CAFC properly.

    We're not unlike other clubs in that regard.   Football is a crazily expensive business to be in.   The issue is TS is not a fan and has no allegiance to us. 

    Our future looks bottom half of division 3 and downwards right now I am afraid.
    Source?
    for what? if you mean the 350k its been confirmed by TS himself. 
    Of course not! The statement that he doesn't have enough cash in the bank to run CAFC properly. 
    And got a load of likes.
    He is cutting staff left, right and centre
    The squad added free transfers in the close season
    The club shop doesn't have anything in it
    He borrowed £350k from a fan

    If you have enough cash to properly run the club, you don't do that.  Nothing is cheaper than your own cash.

    We are losing millions 
    It's a crazy business

    You have focused on one part of my post

    TS is NOT a fan
    He won't put his hand in his pocket like a fan would to give their club a chance of competing 

    We will not be able to compete in this division if our current owner continues operating like this 
    Not saying you are wrong, but none of those reasons imo signify that he doesn’t have enough cash in the bank to run CAFC as an ongoing concern. 
    This

    I'm fed up with people saying he hasn't got money as a matter of fact. Simply not true.
    Whether he wants to invest anymore is another matter.

    Agreed - and the exchange rate / dollar against the £ has gone in his favour recently 
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