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Bradford City Possible takeover ( + lots of associated crypto discussion)
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You seem to be suggesting replacing, or adding to, all the presently existing middle men or women with new middle men or women.kentaddick said:
Right, so you create a contract in which once the work is completed, you receive the basket of apples. Usually you’d have to go to lawyers to draw up a contract, contact a bank and set up an escrow for the apples, or you’re relying on your client to supply the apples to you, through a delivery service or delivered by them themselves. If you do the work and don’t receive the apples (which any freelancer will tell you is a possibility) you’ll call the police, or take the case to small claims court to get your apples. Using a blockchain network like ethereum this can all be done much more efficiently in code with no middle men. The apples you want will be held in a smart contract that will release the apples to you once work has been seen to be completed. Not receiving the apples upon completion or receiving the apples before you’ve completed work is an impossibility - because it’s written in the code of the smart contract. You’ve now replaced all the middle men who are ensuring trust with code - which is much more efficient. All that this takes is for you to pay a “gas” fee to the network who are witnessing your transaction and smart contract by paying in ETH tokens.seth plum said:
Why would anybody want to use an ethereum network (whatever that is) for anything?kentaddick said:
No what I’m describing is literally the ethereum network and why ethereum (and other layer one cryptos) have value. In fact, you’ve highlighted exactly why there are other networks and cryptos, not just ethereum - why should you pay such high fees? Maybe you could use another network, the drawback is not as many people would be using that network. So the value might not be as high.seth plum said:
What you seem to be describing is some kind of force getting a squeeze on transactions off the back of cauliflower growers (and honey producers). Why should that happen when those forces are neither growing nor consuming any cauliflowers?kentaddick said:Right, @seth plum to use your cauliflower/honey analogy:
say you want to buy cauliflowers, to do that you’d have to use the cauliflower network - so you have to go to the cauliflower network and buy some cauliflowers. This network is made of various groups of cauliflower growers, and in order for you to be recognised as a cauliflower owner but I am buying cauliflower expressly because I am no a cauliflower owner they all have to see and acknowledge that you are a cauliflower owner so that it’s recorded on a ledger everyone can see so after I buy a cauliflower I am obliged in some way to tell the world I have a cauliflower, why? In order to do this do what, write it down in a book that I have bought a cauliflower?, this takes the cauliflower growers a little bit of work, so you have to pay them a little bit of the cauliflower you want in order to be recognised as a cauliflower owner why on earth would I have to be recognised as a cauliflower owner?. This is required for all transactions on the cauliflower network to save all this faff I would buy my cauliflowers elsewhere, like Lewisham market or somewhere.Say now you don’t want cauliflower, you want to create honey, because you have some utility for that honey. There’s no honey network, but that’s okay, because the cauliflower network will allow you to turn your cauliflower into honey by reconfiguring the dna of the cauliflower into honey eh? and still be able to use the cauliflower network. You still have to pay the cauliflower growers fees because you’re using that network I paid the cauliflower growers fee the first time I bought the cauliflower, I paid it because they took the trouble to grow it an harvest it, once that's done the cauliflower is mine free and clear.. Other people see your honey eh? again, honey that has been made out of cauliflowers by altering its dna? and want to buy your honey to use the utility for that honey you’ve created. That honey is now worth something isn't it worth a cauliflower? - as people want to trade their cauliflower for some honey. As a result that cauliflower also goes up in value I can understand my cauliflower goes up in value because there's a shortage, and mine is still good to eat, but see no other reason because more people are using the network. Now imagine other people are doing the same thing with the cauliflower and turning it into all sorts of stuff that has utilities or uses, maybe they might even reference the ledger of your honey in their utility, so that it essentially builds on what your honey does as i asked earlier why do I need to pay somebody for writing down in a ledger that I have just bought a cauliflower with pounds shillings and pence?Hell, you might even want to become a cauliflower grower yourself instead of all that and maintain the cauliflower network, so you can collect a share of the cauliflower fees.
So money is made by somebody somewhere putting a tax on cauliflowers?Now imagine that’s all done in code, and that’s essentially how the ethereum network works.
A base principle is I go to the person down the road, and fix their roof in exchange for a basket of apples they have grown.
Hey presto they have an actual thing, and I have an actual thing.
Take that scenario as a starting point and explain where the imaginary currencies fit in.The more ETH tokens you have, the more you can use the network and more complex transactions you can make. The network is maintained by “miners” who witness the transaction. They are rewarded for witnessing these transactions with the “gas” fee you’ve paid, plus new ethereum tokens that they have been awarded for maintaining the network.The network cannot go down, because it’s maintained by thousands of completely separate computers. Nobody has a controlling stake in the network, so it is completely decentralised, not run by a company or nation state.
Why would I want to do that? And why would I want to pay to do that?0 -
I do hope you’re not a teacher.kentaddick said:
Right, so you create a contract in which once the work is completed, you receive the basket of apples. Usually you’d have to go to lawyers to draw up a contract, contact a bank and set up an escrow for the apples, or you’re relying on your client to supply the apples to you, through a delivery service or delivered by them themselves. If you do the work and don’t receive the apples (which any freelancer will tell you is a possibility) you’ll call the police, or take the case to small claims court to get your apples. Using a blockchain network like ethereum this can all be done much more efficiently in code with no middle men. The apples you want will be held in a smart contract that will release the apples to you once work has been seen to be completed. Not receiving the apples upon completion or receiving the apples before you’ve completed work is an impossibility - because it’s written in the code of the smart contract. You’ve now replaced all the middle men who are ensuring trust with code - which is much more efficient. All that this takes is for you to pay a “gas” fee to the network who are witnessing your transaction and smart contract by paying in ETH tokens.seth plum said:
Why would anybody want to use an ethereum network (whatever that is) for anything?kentaddick said:
No what I’m describing is literally the ethereum network and why ethereum (and other layer one cryptos) have value. In fact, you’ve highlighted exactly why there are other networks and cryptos, not just ethereum - why should you pay such high fees? Maybe you could use another network, the drawback is not as many people would be using that network. So the value might not be as high.seth plum said:
What you seem to be describing is some kind of force getting a squeeze on transactions off the back of cauliflower growers (and honey producers). Why should that happen when those forces are neither growing nor consuming any cauliflowers?kentaddick said:Right, @seth plum to use your cauliflower/honey analogy:
say you want to buy cauliflowers, to do that you’d have to use the cauliflower network - so you have to go to the cauliflower network and buy some cauliflowers. This network is made of various groups of cauliflower growers, and in order for you to be recognised as a cauliflower owner but I am buying cauliflower expressly because I am no a cauliflower owner they all have to see and acknowledge that you are a cauliflower owner so that it’s recorded on a ledger everyone can see so after I buy a cauliflower I am obliged in some way to tell the world I have a cauliflower, why? In order to do this do what, write it down in a book that I have bought a cauliflower?, this takes the cauliflower growers a little bit of work, so you have to pay them a little bit of the cauliflower you want in order to be recognised as a cauliflower owner why on earth would I have to be recognised as a cauliflower owner?. This is required for all transactions on the cauliflower network to save all this faff I would buy my cauliflowers elsewhere, like Lewisham market or somewhere.Say now you don’t want cauliflower, you want to create honey, because you have some utility for that honey. There’s no honey network, but that’s okay, because the cauliflower network will allow you to turn your cauliflower into honey by reconfiguring the dna of the cauliflower into honey eh? and still be able to use the cauliflower network. You still have to pay the cauliflower growers fees because you’re using that network I paid the cauliflower growers fee the first time I bought the cauliflower, I paid it because they took the trouble to grow it an harvest it, once that's done the cauliflower is mine free and clear.. Other people see your honey eh? again, honey that has been made out of cauliflowers by altering its dna? and want to buy your honey to use the utility for that honey you’ve created. That honey is now worth something isn't it worth a cauliflower? - as people want to trade their cauliflower for some honey. As a result that cauliflower also goes up in value I can understand my cauliflower goes up in value because there's a shortage, and mine is still good to eat, but see no other reason because more people are using the network. Now imagine other people are doing the same thing with the cauliflower and turning it into all sorts of stuff that has utilities or uses, maybe they might even reference the ledger of your honey in their utility, so that it essentially builds on what your honey does as i asked earlier why do I need to pay somebody for writing down in a ledger that I have just bought a cauliflower with pounds shillings and pence?Hell, you might even want to become a cauliflower grower yourself instead of all that and maintain the cauliflower network, so you can collect a share of the cauliflower fees.
So money is made by somebody somewhere putting a tax on cauliflowers?Now imagine that’s all done in code, and that’s essentially how the ethereum network works.
A base principle is I go to the person down the road, and fix their roof in exchange for a basket of apples they have grown.
Hey presto they have an actual thing, and I have an actual thing.
Take that scenario as a starting point and explain where the imaginary currencies fit in.The more ETH tokens you have, the more you can use the network and more complex transactions you can make. The network is maintained by “miners” who witness the transaction. They are rewarded for witnessing these transactions with the “gas” fee you’ve paid, plus new ethereum tokens that they have been awarded for maintaining the network.The network cannot go down, because it’s maintained by thousands of completely separate computers. Nobody has a controlling stake in the network, so it is completely decentralised, not run by a company or nation state.1 -
It would be safer, potentially cheaper and most importantly (to some) not governed by a single entity.seth plum said:
You seem to be suggesting replacing, or adding to, all the presently existing middle men or women with new middle men or women.kentaddick said:
Right, so you create a contract in which once the work is completed, you receive the basket of apples. Usually you’d have to go to lawyers to draw up a contract, contact a bank and set up an escrow for the apples, or you’re relying on your client to supply the apples to you, through a delivery service or delivered by them themselves. If you do the work and don’t receive the apples (which any freelancer will tell you is a possibility) you’ll call the police, or take the case to small claims court to get your apples. Using a blockchain network like ethereum this can all be done much more efficiently in code with no middle men. The apples you want will be held in a smart contract that will release the apples to you once work has been seen to be completed. Not receiving the apples upon completion or receiving the apples before you’ve completed work is an impossibility - because it’s written in the code of the smart contract. You’ve now replaced all the middle men who are ensuring trust with code - which is much more efficient. All that this takes is for you to pay a “gas” fee to the network who are witnessing your transaction and smart contract by paying in ETH tokens.seth plum said:
Why would anybody want to use an ethereum network (whatever that is) for anything?kentaddick said:
No what I’m describing is literally the ethereum network and why ethereum (and other layer one cryptos) have value. In fact, you’ve highlighted exactly why there are other networks and cryptos, not just ethereum - why should you pay such high fees? Maybe you could use another network, the drawback is not as many people would be using that network. So the value might not be as high.seth plum said:
What you seem to be describing is some kind of force getting a squeeze on transactions off the back of cauliflower growers (and honey producers). Why should that happen when those forces are neither growing nor consuming any cauliflowers?kentaddick said:Right, @seth plum to use your cauliflower/honey analogy:
say you want to buy cauliflowers, to do that you’d have to use the cauliflower network - so you have to go to the cauliflower network and buy some cauliflowers. This network is made of various groups of cauliflower growers, and in order for you to be recognised as a cauliflower owner but I am buying cauliflower expressly because I am no a cauliflower owner they all have to see and acknowledge that you are a cauliflower owner so that it’s recorded on a ledger everyone can see so after I buy a cauliflower I am obliged in some way to tell the world I have a cauliflower, why? In order to do this do what, write it down in a book that I have bought a cauliflower?, this takes the cauliflower growers a little bit of work, so you have to pay them a little bit of the cauliflower you want in order to be recognised as a cauliflower owner why on earth would I have to be recognised as a cauliflower owner?. This is required for all transactions on the cauliflower network to save all this faff I would buy my cauliflowers elsewhere, like Lewisham market or somewhere.Say now you don’t want cauliflower, you want to create honey, because you have some utility for that honey. There’s no honey network, but that’s okay, because the cauliflower network will allow you to turn your cauliflower into honey by reconfiguring the dna of the cauliflower into honey eh? and still be able to use the cauliflower network. You still have to pay the cauliflower growers fees because you’re using that network I paid the cauliflower growers fee the first time I bought the cauliflower, I paid it because they took the trouble to grow it an harvest it, once that's done the cauliflower is mine free and clear.. Other people see your honey eh? again, honey that has been made out of cauliflowers by altering its dna? and want to buy your honey to use the utility for that honey you’ve created. That honey is now worth something isn't it worth a cauliflower? - as people want to trade their cauliflower for some honey. As a result that cauliflower also goes up in value I can understand my cauliflower goes up in value because there's a shortage, and mine is still good to eat, but see no other reason because more people are using the network. Now imagine other people are doing the same thing with the cauliflower and turning it into all sorts of stuff that has utilities or uses, maybe they might even reference the ledger of your honey in their utility, so that it essentially builds on what your honey does as i asked earlier why do I need to pay somebody for writing down in a ledger that I have just bought a cauliflower with pounds shillings and pence?Hell, you might even want to become a cauliflower grower yourself instead of all that and maintain the cauliflower network, so you can collect a share of the cauliflower fees.
So money is made by somebody somewhere putting a tax on cauliflowers?Now imagine that’s all done in code, and that’s essentially how the ethereum network works.
A base principle is I go to the person down the road, and fix their roof in exchange for a basket of apples they have grown.
Hey presto they have an actual thing, and I have an actual thing.
Take that scenario as a starting point and explain where the imaginary currencies fit in.The more ETH tokens you have, the more you can use the network and more complex transactions you can make. The network is maintained by “miners” who witness the transaction. They are rewarded for witnessing these transactions with the “gas” fee you’ve paid, plus new ethereum tokens that they have been awarded for maintaining the network.The network cannot go down, because it’s maintained by thousands of completely separate computers. Nobody has a controlling stake in the network, so it is completely decentralised, not run by a company or nation state.
Why would I want to do that? And why would I want to pay to do that?2 -
kentaddick said:
I established it was an insane analogy - i was literally just using seth’s insane and difficult to decipher analogy.Yes, if you had the technology, you could technically change the dna of a cauliflower to honey. In this instance though the cauliflower is code, so is the honey. So it is obviously possible.Seth's analogy isn't difficult to decipher at all, it just doesn't work as a good analogy because it omits an important factor in what he's trying to explain. But of course he doesn't know that, because he doesn't understand it. There's no point going into detail about all the additional levels of complexity if it falls down at the very simple level.@seth plum the important bit you've missed from your analogy is that you can barter with services as well as with goods. So if you gets someone to help you harvest the cauliflowers and pay them in cauliflowers, they can then use those cauliflowers to swap with other people for honey, bowls or whatever. From the perspective of that person, they've not traded anything physically tangible to get those cauliflowers, but the work they've done has value to you so you're happy to swap the cauliflowers for it. With me so far?1 -
Who are the middle men in my scenario? There are none. There’s 2 parties and a network that they exist on. In yours there’s a whole host of middle men right up to the Bank of England.seth plum said:
You seem to be suggesting replacing, or adding to, all the presently existing middle men or women with new middle men or women.kentaddick said:
Right, so you create a contract in which once the work is completed, you receive the basket of apples. Usually you’d have to go to lawyers to draw up a contract, contact a bank and set up an escrow for the apples, or you’re relying on your client to supply the apples to you, through a delivery service or delivered by them themselves. If you do the work and don’t receive the apples (which any freelancer will tell you is a possibility) you’ll call the police, or take the case to small claims court to get your apples. Using a blockchain network like ethereum this can all be done much more efficiently in code with no middle men. The apples you want will be held in a smart contract that will release the apples to you once work has been seen to be completed. Not receiving the apples upon completion or receiving the apples before you’ve completed work is an impossibility - because it’s written in the code of the smart contract. You’ve now replaced all the middle men who are ensuring trust with code - which is much more efficient. All that this takes is for you to pay a “gas” fee to the network who are witnessing your transaction and smart contract by paying in ETH tokens.seth plum said:
Why would anybody want to use an ethereum network (whatever that is) for anything?kentaddick said:
No what I’m describing is literally the ethereum network and why ethereum (and other layer one cryptos) have value. In fact, you’ve highlighted exactly why there are other networks and cryptos, not just ethereum - why should you pay such high fees? Maybe you could use another network, the drawback is not as many people would be using that network. So the value might not be as high.seth plum said:
What you seem to be describing is some kind of force getting a squeeze on transactions off the back of cauliflower growers (and honey producers). Why should that happen when those forces are neither growing nor consuming any cauliflowers?kentaddick said:Right, @seth plum to use your cauliflower/honey analogy:
say you want to buy cauliflowers, to do that you’d have to use the cauliflower network - so you have to go to the cauliflower network and buy some cauliflowers. This network is made of various groups of cauliflower growers, and in order for you to be recognised as a cauliflower owner but I am buying cauliflower expressly because I am no a cauliflower owner they all have to see and acknowledge that you are a cauliflower owner so that it’s recorded on a ledger everyone can see so after I buy a cauliflower I am obliged in some way to tell the world I have a cauliflower, why? In order to do this do what, write it down in a book that I have bought a cauliflower?, this takes the cauliflower growers a little bit of work, so you have to pay them a little bit of the cauliflower you want in order to be recognised as a cauliflower owner why on earth would I have to be recognised as a cauliflower owner?. This is required for all transactions on the cauliflower network to save all this faff I would buy my cauliflowers elsewhere, like Lewisham market or somewhere.Say now you don’t want cauliflower, you want to create honey, because you have some utility for that honey. There’s no honey network, but that’s okay, because the cauliflower network will allow you to turn your cauliflower into honey by reconfiguring the dna of the cauliflower into honey eh? and still be able to use the cauliflower network. You still have to pay the cauliflower growers fees because you’re using that network I paid the cauliflower growers fee the first time I bought the cauliflower, I paid it because they took the trouble to grow it an harvest it, once that's done the cauliflower is mine free and clear.. Other people see your honey eh? again, honey that has been made out of cauliflowers by altering its dna? and want to buy your honey to use the utility for that honey you’ve created. That honey is now worth something isn't it worth a cauliflower? - as people want to trade their cauliflower for some honey. As a result that cauliflower also goes up in value I can understand my cauliflower goes up in value because there's a shortage, and mine is still good to eat, but see no other reason because more people are using the network. Now imagine other people are doing the same thing with the cauliflower and turning it into all sorts of stuff that has utilities or uses, maybe they might even reference the ledger of your honey in their utility, so that it essentially builds on what your honey does as i asked earlier why do I need to pay somebody for writing down in a ledger that I have just bought a cauliflower with pounds shillings and pence?Hell, you might even want to become a cauliflower grower yourself instead of all that and maintain the cauliflower network, so you can collect a share of the cauliflower fees.
So money is made by somebody somewhere putting a tax on cauliflowers?Now imagine that’s all done in code, and that’s essentially how the ethereum network works.
A base principle is I go to the person down the road, and fix their roof in exchange for a basket of apples they have grown.
Hey presto they have an actual thing, and I have an actual thing.
Take that scenario as a starting point and explain where the imaginary currencies fit in.The more ETH tokens you have, the more you can use the network and more complex transactions you can make. The network is maintained by “miners” who witness the transaction. They are rewarded for witnessing these transactions with the “gas” fee you’ve paid, plus new ethereum tokens that they have been awarded for maintaining the network.The network cannot go down, because it’s maintained by thousands of completely separate computers. Nobody has a controlling stake in the network, so it is completely decentralised, not run by a company or nation state.
Why would I want to do that? And why would I want to pay to do that?0 -
What part don’t you understand?iainment said:
I do hope you’re not a teacher.kentaddick said:
Right, so you create a contract in which once the work is completed, you receive the basket of apples. Usually you’d have to go to lawyers to draw up a contract, contact a bank and set up an escrow for the apples, or you’re relying on your client to supply the apples to you, through a delivery service or delivered by them themselves. If you do the work and don’t receive the apples (which any freelancer will tell you is a possibility) you’ll call the police, or take the case to small claims court to get your apples. Using a blockchain network like ethereum this can all be done much more efficiently in code with no middle men. The apples you want will be held in a smart contract that will release the apples to you once work has been seen to be completed. Not receiving the apples upon completion or receiving the apples before you’ve completed work is an impossibility - because it’s written in the code of the smart contract. You’ve now replaced all the middle men who are ensuring trust with code - which is much more efficient. All that this takes is for you to pay a “gas” fee to the network who are witnessing your transaction and smart contract by paying in ETH tokens.seth plum said:
Why would anybody want to use an ethereum network (whatever that is) for anything?kentaddick said:
No what I’m describing is literally the ethereum network and why ethereum (and other layer one cryptos) have value. In fact, you’ve highlighted exactly why there are other networks and cryptos, not just ethereum - why should you pay such high fees? Maybe you could use another network, the drawback is not as many people would be using that network. So the value might not be as high.seth plum said:
What you seem to be describing is some kind of force getting a squeeze on transactions off the back of cauliflower growers (and honey producers). Why should that happen when those forces are neither growing nor consuming any cauliflowers?kentaddick said:Right, @seth plum to use your cauliflower/honey analogy:
say you want to buy cauliflowers, to do that you’d have to use the cauliflower network - so you have to go to the cauliflower network and buy some cauliflowers. This network is made of various groups of cauliflower growers, and in order for you to be recognised as a cauliflower owner but I am buying cauliflower expressly because I am no a cauliflower owner they all have to see and acknowledge that you are a cauliflower owner so that it’s recorded on a ledger everyone can see so after I buy a cauliflower I am obliged in some way to tell the world I have a cauliflower, why? In order to do this do what, write it down in a book that I have bought a cauliflower?, this takes the cauliflower growers a little bit of work, so you have to pay them a little bit of the cauliflower you want in order to be recognised as a cauliflower owner why on earth would I have to be recognised as a cauliflower owner?. This is required for all transactions on the cauliflower network to save all this faff I would buy my cauliflowers elsewhere, like Lewisham market or somewhere.Say now you don’t want cauliflower, you want to create honey, because you have some utility for that honey. There’s no honey network, but that’s okay, because the cauliflower network will allow you to turn your cauliflower into honey by reconfiguring the dna of the cauliflower into honey eh? and still be able to use the cauliflower network. You still have to pay the cauliflower growers fees because you’re using that network I paid the cauliflower growers fee the first time I bought the cauliflower, I paid it because they took the trouble to grow it an harvest it, once that's done the cauliflower is mine free and clear.. Other people see your honey eh? again, honey that has been made out of cauliflowers by altering its dna? and want to buy your honey to use the utility for that honey you’ve created. That honey is now worth something isn't it worth a cauliflower? - as people want to trade their cauliflower for some honey. As a result that cauliflower also goes up in value I can understand my cauliflower goes up in value because there's a shortage, and mine is still good to eat, but see no other reason because more people are using the network. Now imagine other people are doing the same thing with the cauliflower and turning it into all sorts of stuff that has utilities or uses, maybe they might even reference the ledger of your honey in their utility, so that it essentially builds on what your honey does as i asked earlier why do I need to pay somebody for writing down in a ledger that I have just bought a cauliflower with pounds shillings and pence?Hell, you might even want to become a cauliflower grower yourself instead of all that and maintain the cauliflower network, so you can collect a share of the cauliflower fees.
So money is made by somebody somewhere putting a tax on cauliflowers?Now imagine that’s all done in code, and that’s essentially how the ethereum network works.
A base principle is I go to the person down the road, and fix their roof in exchange for a basket of apples they have grown.
Hey presto they have an actual thing, and I have an actual thing.
Take that scenario as a starting point and explain where the imaginary currencies fit in.The more ETH tokens you have, the more you can use the network and more complex transactions you can make. The network is maintained by “miners” who witness the transaction. They are rewarded for witnessing these transactions with the “gas” fee you’ve paid, plus new ethereum tokens that they have been awarded for maintaining the network.The network cannot go down, because it’s maintained by thousands of completely separate computers. Nobody has a controlling stake in the network, so it is completely decentralised, not run by a company or nation state.0 -
If there are no middle men, who is getting the Etherium you pay for using the network?kentaddick said:
Who are the middle men in my scenario? There are none. There’s 2 parties and a network that they exist on. In yours there’s a whole host of middle men right up to the Bank of England.seth plum said:
You seem to be suggesting replacing, or adding to, all the presently existing middle men or women with new middle men or women.kentaddick said:
Right, so you create a contract in which once the work is completed, you receive the basket of apples. Usually you’d have to go to lawyers to draw up a contract, contact a bank and set up an escrow for the apples, or you’re relying on your client to supply the apples to you, through a delivery service or delivered by them themselves. If you do the work and don’t receive the apples (which any freelancer will tell you is a possibility) you’ll call the police, or take the case to small claims court to get your apples. Using a blockchain network like ethereum this can all be done much more efficiently in code with no middle men. The apples you want will be held in a smart contract that will release the apples to you once work has been seen to be completed. Not receiving the apples upon completion or receiving the apples before you’ve completed work is an impossibility - because it’s written in the code of the smart contract. You’ve now replaced all the middle men who are ensuring trust with code - which is much more efficient. All that this takes is for you to pay a “gas” fee to the network who are witnessing your transaction and smart contract by paying in ETH tokens.seth plum said:
Why would anybody want to use an ethereum network (whatever that is) for anything?kentaddick said:
No what I’m describing is literally the ethereum network and why ethereum (and other layer one cryptos) have value. In fact, you’ve highlighted exactly why there are other networks and cryptos, not just ethereum - why should you pay such high fees? Maybe you could use another network, the drawback is not as many people would be using that network. So the value might not be as high.seth plum said:
What you seem to be describing is some kind of force getting a squeeze on transactions off the back of cauliflower growers (and honey producers). Why should that happen when those forces are neither growing nor consuming any cauliflowers?kentaddick said:Right, @seth plum to use your cauliflower/honey analogy:
say you want to buy cauliflowers, to do that you’d have to use the cauliflower network - so you have to go to the cauliflower network and buy some cauliflowers. This network is made of various groups of cauliflower growers, and in order for you to be recognised as a cauliflower owner but I am buying cauliflower expressly because I am no a cauliflower owner they all have to see and acknowledge that you are a cauliflower owner so that it’s recorded on a ledger everyone can see so after I buy a cauliflower I am obliged in some way to tell the world I have a cauliflower, why? In order to do this do what, write it down in a book that I have bought a cauliflower?, this takes the cauliflower growers a little bit of work, so you have to pay them a little bit of the cauliflower you want in order to be recognised as a cauliflower owner why on earth would I have to be recognised as a cauliflower owner?. This is required for all transactions on the cauliflower network to save all this faff I would buy my cauliflowers elsewhere, like Lewisham market or somewhere.Say now you don’t want cauliflower, you want to create honey, because you have some utility for that honey. There’s no honey network, but that’s okay, because the cauliflower network will allow you to turn your cauliflower into honey by reconfiguring the dna of the cauliflower into honey eh? and still be able to use the cauliflower network. You still have to pay the cauliflower growers fees because you’re using that network I paid the cauliflower growers fee the first time I bought the cauliflower, I paid it because they took the trouble to grow it an harvest it, once that's done the cauliflower is mine free and clear.. Other people see your honey eh? again, honey that has been made out of cauliflowers by altering its dna? and want to buy your honey to use the utility for that honey you’ve created. That honey is now worth something isn't it worth a cauliflower? - as people want to trade their cauliflower for some honey. As a result that cauliflower also goes up in value I can understand my cauliflower goes up in value because there's a shortage, and mine is still good to eat, but see no other reason because more people are using the network. Now imagine other people are doing the same thing with the cauliflower and turning it into all sorts of stuff that has utilities or uses, maybe they might even reference the ledger of your honey in their utility, so that it essentially builds on what your honey does as i asked earlier why do I need to pay somebody for writing down in a ledger that I have just bought a cauliflower with pounds shillings and pence?Hell, you might even want to become a cauliflower grower yourself instead of all that and maintain the cauliflower network, so you can collect a share of the cauliflower fees.
So money is made by somebody somewhere putting a tax on cauliflowers?Now imagine that’s all done in code, and that’s essentially how the ethereum network works.
A base principle is I go to the person down the road, and fix their roof in exchange for a basket of apples they have grown.
Hey presto they have an actual thing, and I have an actual thing.
Take that scenario as a starting point and explain where the imaginary currencies fit in.The more ETH tokens you have, the more you can use the network and more complex transactions you can make. The network is maintained by “miners” who witness the transaction. They are rewarded for witnessing these transactions with the “gas” fee you’ve paid, plus new ethereum tokens that they have been awarded for maintaining the network.The network cannot go down, because it’s maintained by thousands of completely separate computers. Nobody has a controlling stake in the network, so it is completely decentralised, not run by a company or nation state.
Why would I want to do that? And why would I want to pay to do that?0 -
Isn't the service of harvesting the cauliflowers something physically tangible?aliwibble said:kentaddick said:
I established it was an insane analogy - i was literally just using seth’s insane and difficult to decipher analogy.Yes, if you had the technology, you could technically change the dna of a cauliflower to honey. In this instance though the cauliflower is code, so is the honey. So it is obviously possible.Seth's analogy isn't difficult to decipher at all, it just doesn't work as a good analogy because it omits an important factor in what he's trying to explain. But of course he doesn't know that, because he doesn't understand it. There's no point going into detail about all the additional levels of complexity if it falls down at the very simple level.@seth plum the important bit you've missed from your analogy is that you can barter with services as well as with goods. So if you gets someone to help you harvest the cauliflowers and pay them in cauliflowers, they can then use those cauliflowers to swap with other people for honey, bowls or whatever. From the perspective of that person, they've not traded anything physically tangible to get those cauliflowers, but the work they've done has value to you so you're happy to swap the cauliflowers for it. With me so far?0 -
I think earlier you said you have to pay to be on a ledger.kentaddick said:
Who are the middle men in my scenario? There are none. There’s 2 parties and a network that they exist on. In yours there’s a whole host of middle men right up to the Bank of England.seth plum said:
You seem to be suggesting replacing, or adding to, all the presently existing middle men or women with new middle men or women.kentaddick said:
Right, so you create a contract in which once the work is completed, you receive the basket of apples. Usually you’d have to go to lawyers to draw up a contract, contact a bank and set up an escrow for the apples, or you’re relying on your client to supply the apples to you, through a delivery service or delivered by them themselves. If you do the work and don’t receive the apples (which any freelancer will tell you is a possibility) you’ll call the police, or take the case to small claims court to get your apples. Using a blockchain network like ethereum this can all be done much more efficiently in code with no middle men. The apples you want will be held in a smart contract that will release the apples to you once work has been seen to be completed. Not receiving the apples upon completion or receiving the apples before you’ve completed work is an impossibility - because it’s written in the code of the smart contract. You’ve now replaced all the middle men who are ensuring trust with code - which is much more efficient. All that this takes is for you to pay a “gas” fee to the network who are witnessing your transaction and smart contract by paying in ETH tokens.seth plum said:
Why would anybody want to use an ethereum network (whatever that is) for anything?kentaddick said:
No what I’m describing is literally the ethereum network and why ethereum (and other layer one cryptos) have value. In fact, you’ve highlighted exactly why there are other networks and cryptos, not just ethereum - why should you pay such high fees? Maybe you could use another network, the drawback is not as many people would be using that network. So the value might not be as high.seth plum said:
What you seem to be describing is some kind of force getting a squeeze on transactions off the back of cauliflower growers (and honey producers). Why should that happen when those forces are neither growing nor consuming any cauliflowers?kentaddick said:Right, @seth plum to use your cauliflower/honey analogy:
say you want to buy cauliflowers, to do that you’d have to use the cauliflower network - so you have to go to the cauliflower network and buy some cauliflowers. This network is made of various groups of cauliflower growers, and in order for you to be recognised as a cauliflower owner but I am buying cauliflower expressly because I am no a cauliflower owner they all have to see and acknowledge that you are a cauliflower owner so that it’s recorded on a ledger everyone can see so after I buy a cauliflower I am obliged in some way to tell the world I have a cauliflower, why? In order to do this do what, write it down in a book that I have bought a cauliflower?, this takes the cauliflower growers a little bit of work, so you have to pay them a little bit of the cauliflower you want in order to be recognised as a cauliflower owner why on earth would I have to be recognised as a cauliflower owner?. This is required for all transactions on the cauliflower network to save all this faff I would buy my cauliflowers elsewhere, like Lewisham market or somewhere.Say now you don’t want cauliflower, you want to create honey, because you have some utility for that honey. There’s no honey network, but that’s okay, because the cauliflower network will allow you to turn your cauliflower into honey by reconfiguring the dna of the cauliflower into honey eh? and still be able to use the cauliflower network. You still have to pay the cauliflower growers fees because you’re using that network I paid the cauliflower growers fee the first time I bought the cauliflower, I paid it because they took the trouble to grow it an harvest it, once that's done the cauliflower is mine free and clear.. Other people see your honey eh? again, honey that has been made out of cauliflowers by altering its dna? and want to buy your honey to use the utility for that honey you’ve created. That honey is now worth something isn't it worth a cauliflower? - as people want to trade their cauliflower for some honey. As a result that cauliflower also goes up in value I can understand my cauliflower goes up in value because there's a shortage, and mine is still good to eat, but see no other reason because more people are using the network. Now imagine other people are doing the same thing with the cauliflower and turning it into all sorts of stuff that has utilities or uses, maybe they might even reference the ledger of your honey in their utility, so that it essentially builds on what your honey does as i asked earlier why do I need to pay somebody for writing down in a ledger that I have just bought a cauliflower with pounds shillings and pence?Hell, you might even want to become a cauliflower grower yourself instead of all that and maintain the cauliflower network, so you can collect a share of the cauliflower fees.
So money is made by somebody somewhere putting a tax on cauliflowers?Now imagine that’s all done in code, and that’s essentially how the ethereum network works.
A base principle is I go to the person down the road, and fix their roof in exchange for a basket of apples they have grown.
Hey presto they have an actual thing, and I have an actual thing.
Take that scenario as a starting point and explain where the imaginary currencies fit in.The more ETH tokens you have, the more you can use the network and more complex transactions you can make. The network is maintained by “miners” who witness the transaction. They are rewarded for witnessing these transactions with the “gas” fee you’ve paid, plus new ethereum tokens that they have been awarded for maintaining the network.The network cannot go down, because it’s maintained by thousands of completely separate computers. Nobody has a controlling stake in the network, so it is completely decentralised, not run by a company or nation state.
Why would I want to do that? And why would I want to pay to do that?
There's the middle man or woman right there isn't it?0 -
Not really a middle man is it, it’s like saying soil is the middle man for growing cauliflower. You still have to water and expend resources on the soil. Even if, for the sake of argument, it is, it’s still a lot more efficient than the current set up, isn’t it?seth plum said:
I think earlier you said you have to pay to be on a ledger.kentaddick said:
Who are the middle men in my scenario? There are none. There’s 2 parties and a network that they exist on. In yours there’s a whole host of middle men right up to the Bank of England.seth plum said:
You seem to be suggesting replacing, or adding to, all the presently existing middle men or women with new middle men or women.kentaddick said:
Right, so you create a contract in which once the work is completed, you receive the basket of apples. Usually you’d have to go to lawyers to draw up a contract, contact a bank and set up an escrow for the apples, or you’re relying on your client to supply the apples to you, through a delivery service or delivered by them themselves. If you do the work and don’t receive the apples (which any freelancer will tell you is a possibility) you’ll call the police, or take the case to small claims court to get your apples. Using a blockchain network like ethereum this can all be done much more efficiently in code with no middle men. The apples you want will be held in a smart contract that will release the apples to you once work has been seen to be completed. Not receiving the apples upon completion or receiving the apples before you’ve completed work is an impossibility - because it’s written in the code of the smart contract. You’ve now replaced all the middle men who are ensuring trust with code - which is much more efficient. All that this takes is for you to pay a “gas” fee to the network who are witnessing your transaction and smart contract by paying in ETH tokens.seth plum said:
Why would anybody want to use an ethereum network (whatever that is) for anything?kentaddick said:
No what I’m describing is literally the ethereum network and why ethereum (and other layer one cryptos) have value. In fact, you’ve highlighted exactly why there are other networks and cryptos, not just ethereum - why should you pay such high fees? Maybe you could use another network, the drawback is not as many people would be using that network. So the value might not be as high.seth plum said:
What you seem to be describing is some kind of force getting a squeeze on transactions off the back of cauliflower growers (and honey producers). Why should that happen when those forces are neither growing nor consuming any cauliflowers?kentaddick said:Right, @seth plum to use your cauliflower/honey analogy:
say you want to buy cauliflowers, to do that you’d have to use the cauliflower network - so you have to go to the cauliflower network and buy some cauliflowers. This network is made of various groups of cauliflower growers, and in order for you to be recognised as a cauliflower owner but I am buying cauliflower expressly because I am no a cauliflower owner they all have to see and acknowledge that you are a cauliflower owner so that it’s recorded on a ledger everyone can see so after I buy a cauliflower I am obliged in some way to tell the world I have a cauliflower, why? In order to do this do what, write it down in a book that I have bought a cauliflower?, this takes the cauliflower growers a little bit of work, so you have to pay them a little bit of the cauliflower you want in order to be recognised as a cauliflower owner why on earth would I have to be recognised as a cauliflower owner?. This is required for all transactions on the cauliflower network to save all this faff I would buy my cauliflowers elsewhere, like Lewisham market or somewhere.Say now you don’t want cauliflower, you want to create honey, because you have some utility for that honey. There’s no honey network, but that’s okay, because the cauliflower network will allow you to turn your cauliflower into honey by reconfiguring the dna of the cauliflower into honey eh? and still be able to use the cauliflower network. You still have to pay the cauliflower growers fees because you’re using that network I paid the cauliflower growers fee the first time I bought the cauliflower, I paid it because they took the trouble to grow it an harvest it, once that's done the cauliflower is mine free and clear.. Other people see your honey eh? again, honey that has been made out of cauliflowers by altering its dna? and want to buy your honey to use the utility for that honey you’ve created. That honey is now worth something isn't it worth a cauliflower? - as people want to trade their cauliflower for some honey. As a result that cauliflower also goes up in value I can understand my cauliflower goes up in value because there's a shortage, and mine is still good to eat, but see no other reason because more people are using the network. Now imagine other people are doing the same thing with the cauliflower and turning it into all sorts of stuff that has utilities or uses, maybe they might even reference the ledger of your honey in their utility, so that it essentially builds on what your honey does as i asked earlier why do I need to pay somebody for writing down in a ledger that I have just bought a cauliflower with pounds shillings and pence?Hell, you might even want to become a cauliflower grower yourself instead of all that and maintain the cauliflower network, so you can collect a share of the cauliflower fees.
So money is made by somebody somewhere putting a tax on cauliflowers?Now imagine that’s all done in code, and that’s essentially how the ethereum network works.
A base principle is I go to the person down the road, and fix their roof in exchange for a basket of apples they have grown.
Hey presto they have an actual thing, and I have an actual thing.
Take that scenario as a starting point and explain where the imaginary currencies fit in.The more ETH tokens you have, the more you can use the network and more complex transactions you can make. The network is maintained by “miners” who witness the transaction. They are rewarded for witnessing these transactions with the “gas” fee you’ve paid, plus new ethereum tokens that they have been awarded for maintaining the network.The network cannot go down, because it’s maintained by thousands of completely separate computers. Nobody has a controlling stake in the network, so it is completely decentralised, not run by a company or nation state.
Why would I want to do that? And why would I want to pay to do that?
There's the middle man or woman right there isn't it?0 - Sponsored links:
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It doesn’t have to be physically tangible to be worth something though does it? You’re posting on a website, is that website physically tangible? It’s just graphical representation of mathematics.seth plum said:
Isn't the service of harvesting the cauliflowers something physically tangible?aliwibble said:kentaddick said:
I established it was an insane analogy - i was literally just using seth’s insane and difficult to decipher analogy.Yes, if you had the technology, you could technically change the dna of a cauliflower to honey. In this instance though the cauliflower is code, so is the honey. So it is obviously possible.Seth's analogy isn't difficult to decipher at all, it just doesn't work as a good analogy because it omits an important factor in what he's trying to explain. But of course he doesn't know that, because he doesn't understand it. There's no point going into detail about all the additional levels of complexity if it falls down at the very simple level.@seth plum the important bit you've missed from your analogy is that you can barter with services as well as with goods. So if you gets someone to help you harvest the cauliflowers and pay them in cauliflowers, they can then use those cauliflowers to swap with other people for honey, bowls or whatever. From the perspective of that person, they've not traded anything physically tangible to get those cauliflowers, but the work they've done has value to you so you're happy to swap the cauliflowers for it. With me so far?0 -
This website is physically tangible. For example electricity has probably been generated to power the computer, and that electricity may well have come from a physically tangible windmill.
0 -
That wasn’t the point I was making. Your tone is condescending and dismissive of those not as “knowledgeable “ as you.kentaddick said:
What part don’t you understand?iainment said:
I do hope you’re not a teacher.kentaddick said:
Right, so you create a contract in which once the work is completed, you receive the basket of apples. Usually you’d have to go to lawyers to draw up a contract, contact a bank and set up an escrow for the apples, or you’re relying on your client to supply the apples to you, through a delivery service or delivered by them themselves. If you do the work and don’t receive the apples (which any freelancer will tell you is a possibility) you’ll call the police, or take the case to small claims court to get your apples. Using a blockchain network like ethereum this can all be done much more efficiently in code with no middle men. The apples you want will be held in a smart contract that will release the apples to you once work has been seen to be completed. Not receiving the apples upon completion or receiving the apples before you’ve completed work is an impossibility - because it’s written in the code of the smart contract. You’ve now replaced all the middle men who are ensuring trust with code - which is much more efficient. All that this takes is for you to pay a “gas” fee to the network who are witnessing your transaction and smart contract by paying in ETH tokens.seth plum said:
Why would anybody want to use an ethereum network (whatever that is) for anything?kentaddick said:
No what I’m describing is literally the ethereum network and why ethereum (and other layer one cryptos) have value. In fact, you’ve highlighted exactly why there are other networks and cryptos, not just ethereum - why should you pay such high fees? Maybe you could use another network, the drawback is not as many people would be using that network. So the value might not be as high.seth plum said:
What you seem to be describing is some kind of force getting a squeeze on transactions off the back of cauliflower growers (and honey producers). Why should that happen when those forces are neither growing nor consuming any cauliflowers?kentaddick said:Right, @seth plum to use your cauliflower/honey analogy:
say you want to buy cauliflowers, to do that you’d have to use the cauliflower network - so you have to go to the cauliflower network and buy some cauliflowers. This network is made of various groups of cauliflower growers, and in order for you to be recognised as a cauliflower owner but I am buying cauliflower expressly because I am no a cauliflower owner they all have to see and acknowledge that you are a cauliflower owner so that it’s recorded on a ledger everyone can see so after I buy a cauliflower I am obliged in some way to tell the world I have a cauliflower, why? In order to do this do what, write it down in a book that I have bought a cauliflower?, this takes the cauliflower growers a little bit of work, so you have to pay them a little bit of the cauliflower you want in order to be recognised as a cauliflower owner why on earth would I have to be recognised as a cauliflower owner?. This is required for all transactions on the cauliflower network to save all this faff I would buy my cauliflowers elsewhere, like Lewisham market or somewhere.Say now you don’t want cauliflower, you want to create honey, because you have some utility for that honey. There’s no honey network, but that’s okay, because the cauliflower network will allow you to turn your cauliflower into honey by reconfiguring the dna of the cauliflower into honey eh? and still be able to use the cauliflower network. You still have to pay the cauliflower growers fees because you’re using that network I paid the cauliflower growers fee the first time I bought the cauliflower, I paid it because they took the trouble to grow it an harvest it, once that's done the cauliflower is mine free and clear.. Other people see your honey eh? again, honey that has been made out of cauliflowers by altering its dna? and want to buy your honey to use the utility for that honey you’ve created. That honey is now worth something isn't it worth a cauliflower? - as people want to trade their cauliflower for some honey. As a result that cauliflower also goes up in value I can understand my cauliflower goes up in value because there's a shortage, and mine is still good to eat, but see no other reason because more people are using the network. Now imagine other people are doing the same thing with the cauliflower and turning it into all sorts of stuff that has utilities or uses, maybe they might even reference the ledger of your honey in their utility, so that it essentially builds on what your honey does as i asked earlier why do I need to pay somebody for writing down in a ledger that I have just bought a cauliflower with pounds shillings and pence?Hell, you might even want to become a cauliflower grower yourself instead of all that and maintain the cauliflower network, so you can collect a share of the cauliflower fees.
So money is made by somebody somewhere putting a tax on cauliflowers?Now imagine that’s all done in code, and that’s essentially how the ethereum network works.
A base principle is I go to the person down the road, and fix their roof in exchange for a basket of apples they have grown.
Hey presto they have an actual thing, and I have an actual thing.
Take that scenario as a starting point and explain where the imaginary currencies fit in.The more ETH tokens you have, the more you can use the network and more complex transactions you can make. The network is maintained by “miners” who witness the transaction. They are rewarded for witnessing these transactions with the “gas” fee you’ve paid, plus new ethereum tokens that they have been awarded for maintaining the network.The network cannot go down, because it’s maintained by thousands of completely separate computers. Nobody has a controlling stake in the network, so it is completely decentralised, not run by a company or nation state.I do get what these changes mean but think they will lead to hurt for those engaging without foreknowledge.2 -
What seems to me to be inefficient is paying money earned for something that adds no benefit whatsoever.kentaddick said:
Not really a middle man is it, it’s like saying soil is the middle man for growing cauliflower. You still have to water and expend resources on the soil. Even if, for the sake of argument, it is, it’s still a lot more efficient than the current set up, isn’t it?seth plum said:
I think earlier you said you have to pay to be on a ledger.kentaddick said:
Who are the middle men in my scenario? There are none. There’s 2 parties and a network that they exist on. In yours there’s a whole host of middle men right up to the Bank of England.seth plum said:
You seem to be suggesting replacing, or adding to, all the presently existing middle men or women with new middle men or women.kentaddick said:
Right, so you create a contract in which once the work is completed, you receive the basket of apples. Usually you’d have to go to lawyers to draw up a contract, contact a bank and set up an escrow for the apples, or you’re relying on your client to supply the apples to you, through a delivery service or delivered by them themselves. If you do the work and don’t receive the apples (which any freelancer will tell you is a possibility) you’ll call the police, or take the case to small claims court to get your apples. Using a blockchain network like ethereum this can all be done much more efficiently in code with no middle men. The apples you want will be held in a smart contract that will release the apples to you once work has been seen to be completed. Not receiving the apples upon completion or receiving the apples before you’ve completed work is an impossibility - because it’s written in the code of the smart contract. You’ve now replaced all the middle men who are ensuring trust with code - which is much more efficient. All that this takes is for you to pay a “gas” fee to the network who are witnessing your transaction and smart contract by paying in ETH tokens.seth plum said:
Why would anybody want to use an ethereum network (whatever that is) for anything?kentaddick said:
No what I’m describing is literally the ethereum network and why ethereum (and other layer one cryptos) have value. In fact, you’ve highlighted exactly why there are other networks and cryptos, not just ethereum - why should you pay such high fees? Maybe you could use another network, the drawback is not as many people would be using that network. So the value might not be as high.seth plum said:
What you seem to be describing is some kind of force getting a squeeze on transactions off the back of cauliflower growers (and honey producers). Why should that happen when those forces are neither growing nor consuming any cauliflowers?kentaddick said:Right, @seth plum to use your cauliflower/honey analogy:
say you want to buy cauliflowers, to do that you’d have to use the cauliflower network - so you have to go to the cauliflower network and buy some cauliflowers. This network is made of various groups of cauliflower growers, and in order for you to be recognised as a cauliflower owner but I am buying cauliflower expressly because I am no a cauliflower owner they all have to see and acknowledge that you are a cauliflower owner so that it’s recorded on a ledger everyone can see so after I buy a cauliflower I am obliged in some way to tell the world I have a cauliflower, why? In order to do this do what, write it down in a book that I have bought a cauliflower?, this takes the cauliflower growers a little bit of work, so you have to pay them a little bit of the cauliflower you want in order to be recognised as a cauliflower owner why on earth would I have to be recognised as a cauliflower owner?. This is required for all transactions on the cauliflower network to save all this faff I would buy my cauliflowers elsewhere, like Lewisham market or somewhere.Say now you don’t want cauliflower, you want to create honey, because you have some utility for that honey. There’s no honey network, but that’s okay, because the cauliflower network will allow you to turn your cauliflower into honey by reconfiguring the dna of the cauliflower into honey eh? and still be able to use the cauliflower network. You still have to pay the cauliflower growers fees because you’re using that network I paid the cauliflower growers fee the first time I bought the cauliflower, I paid it because they took the trouble to grow it an harvest it, once that's done the cauliflower is mine free and clear.. Other people see your honey eh? again, honey that has been made out of cauliflowers by altering its dna? and want to buy your honey to use the utility for that honey you’ve created. That honey is now worth something isn't it worth a cauliflower? - as people want to trade their cauliflower for some honey. As a result that cauliflower also goes up in value I can understand my cauliflower goes up in value because there's a shortage, and mine is still good to eat, but see no other reason because more people are using the network. Now imagine other people are doing the same thing with the cauliflower and turning it into all sorts of stuff that has utilities or uses, maybe they might even reference the ledger of your honey in their utility, so that it essentially builds on what your honey does as i asked earlier why do I need to pay somebody for writing down in a ledger that I have just bought a cauliflower with pounds shillings and pence?Hell, you might even want to become a cauliflower grower yourself instead of all that and maintain the cauliflower network, so you can collect a share of the cauliflower fees.
So money is made by somebody somewhere putting a tax on cauliflowers?Now imagine that’s all done in code, and that’s essentially how the ethereum network works.
A base principle is I go to the person down the road, and fix their roof in exchange for a basket of apples they have grown.
Hey presto they have an actual thing, and I have an actual thing.
Take that scenario as a starting point and explain where the imaginary currencies fit in.The more ETH tokens you have, the more you can use the network and more complex transactions you can make. The network is maintained by “miners” who witness the transaction. They are rewarded for witnessing these transactions with the “gas” fee you’ve paid, plus new ethereum tokens that they have been awarded for maintaining the network.The network cannot go down, because it’s maintained by thousands of completely separate computers. Nobody has a controlling stake in the network, so it is completely decentralised, not run by a company or nation state.
Why would I want to do that? And why would I want to pay to do that?
There's the middle man or woman right there isn't it?
Have you read the article I posted earlier about Tulips, and that 'bubble' and its relationship to imaginary currencies?
Even if governments print money they eventually have problems if that money is not related to something physically tangible like oil reserves, or the creative talent within a society. The money becomes worthless.
Nobody is rushing out to buy the Korean People's Won because it has virtually nothing tangible to back it up. Nobody wants my newly dreamed up Sethcoins because there is nothing to back it up.
In your example, factored in to the price of the cauliflower is the enrichment of the soil, the use of water, and the ergs of labour used to produce it. What you buy is the cauliflower as a whole, complete with all the attendant processes that go along with it.
As for buying and selling stuff using Sethcoins, bitcoins or whatever, you assert (I think) that doing so would be somehow better if you used Sethcoins rather than the pounds sterling you earn from working.
I can't see how it can be better if Sethcoins only exist as a concept in my head, whereas Pounds sterling is rooted (sometimes badly rooted) in the productivity of the country.0 -
seth plum said:
Isn't the service of harvesting the cauliflowers something physically tangible?aliwibble said:kentaddick said:
I established it was an insane analogy - i was literally just using seth’s insane and difficult to decipher analogy.Yes, if you had the technology, you could technically change the dna of a cauliflower to honey. In this instance though the cauliflower is code, so is the honey. So it is obviously possible.Seth's analogy isn't difficult to decipher at all, it just doesn't work as a good analogy because it omits an important factor in what he's trying to explain. But of course he doesn't know that, because he doesn't understand it. There's no point going into detail about all the additional levels of complexity if it falls down at the very simple level.@seth plum the important bit you've missed from your analogy is that you can barter with services as well as with goods. So if you gets someone to help you harvest the cauliflowers and pay them in cauliflowers, they can then use those cauliflowers to swap with other people for honey, bowls or whatever. From the perspective of that person, they've not traded anything physically tangible to get those cauliflowers, but the work they've done has value to you so you're happy to swap the cauliflowers for it. With me so far?Well the service is not really something you can hold in your hand, only the result of doing it is. But you accept the premise, yep?OK, the next step is that the going rate for cauliflower harvesting is way more cauliflowers than the harvest worker (well call him Harvey to save typing) can eat before they go off, so you offer to write him IOUs for some of the cauliflowers instead. Harvey then swaps some of the IOUs with Bee for some honey, Sally for a nice bowl to eat his homemade cauliflower soup from and so on. Bee and Sally then come back to you to swap the IOUs for actual cauliflowers. So now we've got a currency in the form of cauliflower IOUs being swapped/traded, and eventually getting redeemed for cauliflowers. Still with me?Now as a humble cauliflower grower, the hassle of checking the various cauliflower IOUs (cIOUs) is a pain in the arse, so you hire Heath to issue new cIOUs and keep track of what's gone out and come back in. Heath can't stand cauliflowers, so you create some more cIOUs to pay him, and he swaps those for honey or whatever, or even just keeps hold of them. So in this analogy, Heath is the equivalent of what they call "cryptominers" - he does some mathematical work, and this generates new instances of the currency that can then be traded between people for goods and services. The difference is, the real world value isn't pegged to something tangible like a cauliflower, but simply what people trading those currency units think they're worth.The obvious question is how do people decide what they're worth, and why bother when you can just use conventional curriencies? I'm a cynic, so probably not the best person to explain that one.0 -
Thank you for this reply.aliwibble said:seth plum said:
Isn't the service of harvesting the cauliflowers something physically tangible?aliwibble said:kentaddick said:
I established it was an insane analogy - i was literally just using seth’s insane and difficult to decipher analogy.Yes, if you had the technology, you could technically change the dna of a cauliflower to honey. In this instance though the cauliflower is code, so is the honey. So it is obviously possible.Seth's analogy isn't difficult to decipher at all, it just doesn't work as a good analogy because it omits an important factor in what he's trying to explain. But of course he doesn't know that, because he doesn't understand it. There's no point going into detail about all the additional levels of complexity if it falls down at the very simple level.@seth plum the important bit you've missed from your analogy is that you can barter with services as well as with goods. So if you gets someone to help you harvest the cauliflowers and pay them in cauliflowers, they can then use those cauliflowers to swap with other people for honey, bowls or whatever. From the perspective of that person, they've not traded anything physically tangible to get those cauliflowers, but the work they've done has value to you so you're happy to swap the cauliflowers for it. With me so far?Well the service is not really something you can hold in your hand, only the result of doing it is. But you accept the premise, yep?OK, the next step is that the going rate for cauliflower harvesting is way more cauliflowers than the harvest worker (well call him Harvey to save typing) can eat before they go off, so you offer to write him IOUs for some of the cauliflowers instead. Harvey then swaps some of the IOUs with Bee for some honey, Sally for a nice bowl to eat his homemade cauliflower soup from and so on. Bee and Sally then come back to you to swap the IOUs for actual cauliflowers. So now we've got a currency in the form of cauliflower IOUs being swapped/traded, and eventually getting redeemed for cauliflowers. Still with me?Now as a humble cauliflower grower, the hassle of checking the various cauliflower IOUs (cIOUs) is a pain in the arse, so you hire Heath to issue new cIOUs and keep track of what's gone out and come back in. Heath can't stand cauliflowers, so you create some more cIOUs to pay him, and he swaps those for honey or whatever, or even just keeps hold of them. So in this analogy, Heath is the equivalent of what they call "cryptominers" - he does some mathematical work, and this generates new instances of the currency that can then be traded between people for goods and services. The difference is, the real world value isn't pegged to something tangible like a cauliflower, but simply what people trading those currency units think they're worth.The obvious question is how do people decide what they're worth, and why bother when you can just use conventional curriencies? I'm a cynic, so probably not the best person to explain that one.
(when you say 'Heath' do you mean 'Harvey'?).
I have to admit all the IOU stuff is convoluted.
If I owe you something, why can't I simply say I owe you £10 and will pay you as soon as is practicable?
However the last bit you have written, which I have highlighted is exactly the point I made about Tulips isn't it? That Dutch people had their own kind of 'cryptocurrency' in Tulips between 1634 and 1637? It was an act of faith in something with flimsy substance, it lasted years not months.
If we are basically saying the same thing in this regard, do you think you will get the same kind of reaction from a certain person that I get? As in troll, dense, and so on.
In terms of doing some mathematical work, well most of us can do some mathematical work, hell even my neighbours cat can add up to one, how on earth does that justify getting paid to write things in a ledger?
Are we not in an Emperor's new clothes scenario with cryptocurrency?1 -
Seriously people, what the fuck does this thread have to do with a takeover at Bradford any longer?9
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I think the connection to Bradford City is because the proposal is they're taken over by cryptocurrency.1
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And then it went away.1
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You found the posh ones, some near me would consider cauliflowers far too fancy.clb74 said:
TbfOff_it said:Seriously people, what the fuck does this thread have to do with a takeover at Bradford any longer?
Last time I went Bradford away a couple of pubs did take cauliflowers as payment for a pint.0 -
We can’t just allow you to pay what you owe because nobody has a clue who you are, as a faceless person behind a keyboard spending 1,000s on vegetables on and honey every second, surely a safer and more secure option makes sense?seth plum said:
Thank you for this reply.aliwibble said:seth plum said:
Isn't the service of harvesting the cauliflowers something physically tangible?aliwibble said:kentaddick said:
I established it was an insane analogy - i was literally just using seth’s insane and difficult to decipher analogy.Yes, if you had the technology, you could technically change the dna of a cauliflower to honey. In this instance though the cauliflower is code, so is the honey. So it is obviously possible.Seth's analogy isn't difficult to decipher at all, it just doesn't work as a good analogy because it omits an important factor in what he's trying to explain. But of course he doesn't know that, because he doesn't understand it. There's no point going into detail about all the additional levels of complexity if it falls down at the very simple level.@seth plum the important bit you've missed from your analogy is that you can barter with services as well as with goods. So if you gets someone to help you harvest the cauliflowers and pay them in cauliflowers, they can then use those cauliflowers to swap with other people for honey, bowls or whatever. From the perspective of that person, they've not traded anything physically tangible to get those cauliflowers, but the work they've done has value to you so you're happy to swap the cauliflowers for it. With me so far?Well the service is not really something you can hold in your hand, only the result of doing it is. But you accept the premise, yep?OK, the next step is that the going rate for cauliflower harvesting is way more cauliflowers than the harvest worker (well call him Harvey to save typing) can eat before they go off, so you offer to write him IOUs for some of the cauliflowers instead. Harvey then swaps some of the IOUs with Bee for some honey, Sally for a nice bowl to eat his homemade cauliflower soup from and so on. Bee and Sally then come back to you to swap the IOUs for actual cauliflowers. So now we've got a currency in the form of cauliflower IOUs being swapped/traded, and eventually getting redeemed for cauliflowers. Still with me?Now as a humble cauliflower grower, the hassle of checking the various cauliflower IOUs (cIOUs) is a pain in the arse, so you hire Heath to issue new cIOUs and keep track of what's gone out and come back in. Heath can't stand cauliflowers, so you create some more cIOUs to pay him, and he swaps those for honey or whatever, or even just keeps hold of them. So in this analogy, Heath is the equivalent of what they call "cryptominers" - he does some mathematical work, and this generates new instances of the currency that can then be traded between people for goods and services. The difference is, the real world value isn't pegged to something tangible like a cauliflower, but simply what people trading those currency units think they're worth.The obvious question is how do people decide what they're worth, and why bother when you can just use conventional curriencies? I'm a cynic, so probably not the best person to explain that one.
(when you say 'Heath' do you mean 'Harvey'?).
I have to admit all the IOU stuff is convoluted.
If I owe you something, why can't I simply say I owe you £10 and will pay you as soon as is practicable?
However the last bit you have written, which I have highlighted is exactly the point I made about Tulips isn't it? That Dutch people had their own kind of 'cryptocurrency' in Tulips between 1634 and 1637? It was an act of faith in something with flimsy substance, it lasted years not months.
If we are basically saying the same thing in this regard, do you think you will get the same kind of reaction from a certain person that I get? As in troll, dense, and so on.
In terms of doing some mathematical work, well most of us can do some mathematical work, hell even my neighbours cat can add up to one, how on earth does that justify getting paid to write things in a ledger?
Are we not in an Emperor's new clothes scenario with cryptocurrency?Fiat currency is also only worth what people are willing to pay, although a lot more stable then CURRENT cryptos, rates change daily and inflation makes it impossible to predict future value.People are not just being paid for writing things on a ledger, they are being paid for hosting the entire transaction, much like you’re happy to give the local shop it’s cut for making buying those cauliflowers easier. Crypto does the same, it makes transactions quicker, safer and not dependent on one entity. Unlike the pounds you have in the bank that can be tanked in value by poor government decision making.1 -
Crypto value can be tanked by a megalomaniac sending a 7-word tweet...0
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I am not trolling (whatever that is exactly) but you seem to be describing buying and selling on the internet. (Faceless person behind a keyboard).Stu_of_Kunming said:
We can’t just allow you to pay what you owe because nobody has a clue who you are, as a faceless person behind a keyboard spending 1,000s on vegetables on and honey every second, surely a safer and more secure option makes sense?seth plum said:
Thank you for this reply.aliwibble said:seth plum said:
Isn't the service of harvesting the cauliflowers something physically tangible?aliwibble said:kentaddick said:
I established it was an insane analogy - i was literally just using seth’s insane and difficult to decipher analogy.Yes, if you had the technology, you could technically change the dna of a cauliflower to honey. In this instance though the cauliflower is code, so is the honey. So it is obviously possible.Seth's analogy isn't difficult to decipher at all, it just doesn't work as a good analogy because it omits an important factor in what he's trying to explain. But of course he doesn't know that, because he doesn't understand it. There's no point going into detail about all the additional levels of complexity if it falls down at the very simple level.@seth plum the important bit you've missed from your analogy is that you can barter with services as well as with goods. So if you gets someone to help you harvest the cauliflowers and pay them in cauliflowers, they can then use those cauliflowers to swap with other people for honey, bowls or whatever. From the perspective of that person, they've not traded anything physically tangible to get those cauliflowers, but the work they've done has value to you so you're happy to swap the cauliflowers for it. With me so far?Well the service is not really something you can hold in your hand, only the result of doing it is. But you accept the premise, yep?OK, the next step is that the going rate for cauliflower harvesting is way more cauliflowers than the harvest worker (well call him Harvey to save typing) can eat before they go off, so you offer to write him IOUs for some of the cauliflowers instead. Harvey then swaps some of the IOUs with Bee for some honey, Sally for a nice bowl to eat his homemade cauliflower soup from and so on. Bee and Sally then come back to you to swap the IOUs for actual cauliflowers. So now we've got a currency in the form of cauliflower IOUs being swapped/traded, and eventually getting redeemed for cauliflowers. Still with me?Now as a humble cauliflower grower, the hassle of checking the various cauliflower IOUs (cIOUs) is a pain in the arse, so you hire Heath to issue new cIOUs and keep track of what's gone out and come back in. Heath can't stand cauliflowers, so you create some more cIOUs to pay him, and he swaps those for honey or whatever, or even just keeps hold of them. So in this analogy, Heath is the equivalent of what they call "cryptominers" - he does some mathematical work, and this generates new instances of the currency that can then be traded between people for goods and services. The difference is, the real world value isn't pegged to something tangible like a cauliflower, but simply what people trading those currency units think they're worth.The obvious question is how do people decide what they're worth, and why bother when you can just use conventional curriencies? I'm a cynic, so probably not the best person to explain that one.
(when you say 'Heath' do you mean 'Harvey'?).
I have to admit all the IOU stuff is convoluted.
If I owe you something, why can't I simply say I owe you £10 and will pay you as soon as is practicable?
However the last bit you have written, which I have highlighted is exactly the point I made about Tulips isn't it? That Dutch people had their own kind of 'cryptocurrency' in Tulips between 1634 and 1637? It was an act of faith in something with flimsy substance, it lasted years not months.
If we are basically saying the same thing in this regard, do you think you will get the same kind of reaction from a certain person that I get? As in troll, dense, and so on.
In terms of doing some mathematical work, well most of us can do some mathematical work, hell even my neighbours cat can add up to one, how on earth does that justify getting paid to write things in a ledger?
Are we not in an Emperor's new clothes scenario with cryptocurrency?Fiat currency is also only worth what people are willing to pay, although a lot more stable then CURRENT cryptos, rates change daily and inflation makes it impossible to predict future value.People are not just being paid for writing things on a ledger, they are being paid for hosting the entire transaction, much like you’re happy to give the local shop it’s cut for making buying those cauliflowers easier. Crypto does the same, it makes transactions quicker, safer and not dependent on one entity. Unlike the pounds you have in the bank that can be tanked in value by poor government decision making.
If I do something like that I either use my credit or debit card to pay in sterling, or phone up First Direct and ask them to transfer money.
All of that happens in the Sterling currency which is paid for from my Sterling bank account. None of that requires a fee.
The currency itself is related (flimsily and sometimes unsatisfactorily in terms of balance) to national productivity, just as Saudi currency is presumably related largely to their production of oil.
Why would anybody use a cryptocurrency related to nothing beyond tulip like faith, and pay to do so?
I get that governments can tank the economy, and disasters like brexit or crop failure can happen, but still Sterling is related to something. If cryptocurrency is easier and safer than what happens now then how exactly? If it is not dependent on an entity what is it dependent on?
Surely what you’re describing is something like me creating Sethcoins and charging people to pay me in Sterling for me to declare they have 100 Sethcoins.
Indeed, if I wanted some bitcoins what do I use to buy them?0 -
All of those things require a fee Seth, it’s just already incorporated into the price.
Absolutely, which is why I’ve not ‘invested’ but I do see the obvious uses and benefits in the future.WSS said:Crypto value can be tanked by a megalomaniac sending a 7-word tweet...1 -
Sorry to take the crypto thread off topic, there is a thread on that subject BTW.
The group looking at Bradford have also looked at Gillingham, Crawley and Stevenage. They apparently chose Bradford as they want to set up local crypto and NFT training centers.0 -
I am sure that to run a bank or credit card company or print and distribute money costs something. However isn’t it the case that banks take customers savings and make money from that whilst they have it, but because of scale can make enough to run the bank?Stu_of_Kunming said:All of those things require a fee Seth, it’s just already incorporated into the price.
Absolutely, which is why I’ve not ‘invested’ but I do see the obvious uses and benefits in the future.WSS said:Crypto value can be tanked by a megalomaniac sending a 7-word tweet...
If I buy the mythical cauliflower with Sterling are you saying I will get a discount on it if I buy with Sethcoins that I dream up?
My point that currency is eventually related to productivity is what needs to also be addressed. Otherwise a dreamed up currency is very similar (but worse!) to a currency based on Tulips.0 -
But we've already established it does add benefit as it allows a system in which you don't have to have trust in institutions in order for it to work - just because you don't get it/refuse to engage in understanding it doesn't mean it doesn't have value. It's like saying websites have no value - as they're not tangible real things - they are literally lines of code represented graphically on a screen through using other lines of code.seth plum said:
What seems to me to be inefficient is paying money earned for something that adds no benefit whatsoever.kentaddick said:
Not really a middle man is it, it’s like saying soil is the middle man for growing cauliflower. You still have to water and expend resources on the soil. Even if, for the sake of argument, it is, it’s still a lot more efficient than the current set up, isn’t it?seth plum said:
I think earlier you said you have to pay to be on a ledger.kentaddick said:
Who are the middle men in my scenario? There are none. There’s 2 parties and a network that they exist on. In yours there’s a whole host of middle men right up to the Bank of England.seth plum said:
You seem to be suggesting replacing, or adding to, all the presently existing middle men or women with new middle men or women.kentaddick said:
Right, so you create a contract in which once the work is completed, you receive the basket of apples. Usually you’d have to go to lawyers to draw up a contract, contact a bank and set up an escrow for the apples, or you’re relying on your client to supply the apples to you, through a delivery service or delivered by them themselves. If you do the work and don’t receive the apples (which any freelancer will tell you is a possibility) you’ll call the police, or take the case to small claims court to get your apples. Using a blockchain network like ethereum this can all be done much more efficiently in code with no middle men. The apples you want will be held in a smart contract that will release the apples to you once work has been seen to be completed. Not receiving the apples upon completion or receiving the apples before you’ve completed work is an impossibility - because it’s written in the code of the smart contract. You’ve now replaced all the middle men who are ensuring trust with code - which is much more efficient. All that this takes is for you to pay a “gas” fee to the network who are witnessing your transaction and smart contract by paying in ETH tokens.seth plum said:
Why would anybody want to use an ethereum network (whatever that is) for anything?kentaddick said:
No what I’m describing is literally the ethereum network and why ethereum (and other layer one cryptos) have value. In fact, you’ve highlighted exactly why there are other networks and cryptos, not just ethereum - why should you pay such high fees? Maybe you could use another network, the drawback is not as many people would be using that network. So the value might not be as high.seth plum said:
What you seem to be describing is some kind of force getting a squeeze on transactions off the back of cauliflower growers (and honey producers). Why should that happen when those forces are neither growing nor consuming any cauliflowers?kentaddick said:Right, @seth plum to use your cauliflower/honey analogy:
say you want to buy cauliflowers, to do that you’d have to use the cauliflower network - so you have to go to the cauliflower network and buy some cauliflowers. This network is made of various groups of cauliflower growers, and in order for you to be recognised as a cauliflower owner but I am buying cauliflower expressly because I am no a cauliflower owner they all have to see and acknowledge that you are a cauliflower owner so that it’s recorded on a ledger everyone can see so after I buy a cauliflower I am obliged in some way to tell the world I have a cauliflower, why? In order to do this do what, write it down in a book that I have bought a cauliflower?, this takes the cauliflower growers a little bit of work, so you have to pay them a little bit of the cauliflower you want in order to be recognised as a cauliflower owner why on earth would I have to be recognised as a cauliflower owner?. This is required for all transactions on the cauliflower network to save all this faff I would buy my cauliflowers elsewhere, like Lewisham market or somewhere.Say now you don’t want cauliflower, you want to create honey, because you have some utility for that honey. There’s no honey network, but that’s okay, because the cauliflower network will allow you to turn your cauliflower into honey by reconfiguring the dna of the cauliflower into honey eh? and still be able to use the cauliflower network. You still have to pay the cauliflower growers fees because you’re using that network I paid the cauliflower growers fee the first time I bought the cauliflower, I paid it because they took the trouble to grow it an harvest it, once that's done the cauliflower is mine free and clear.. Other people see your honey eh? again, honey that has been made out of cauliflowers by altering its dna? and want to buy your honey to use the utility for that honey you’ve created. That honey is now worth something isn't it worth a cauliflower? - as people want to trade their cauliflower for some honey. As a result that cauliflower also goes up in value I can understand my cauliflower goes up in value because there's a shortage, and mine is still good to eat, but see no other reason because more people are using the network. Now imagine other people are doing the same thing with the cauliflower and turning it into all sorts of stuff that has utilities or uses, maybe they might even reference the ledger of your honey in their utility, so that it essentially builds on what your honey does as i asked earlier why do I need to pay somebody for writing down in a ledger that I have just bought a cauliflower with pounds shillings and pence?Hell, you might even want to become a cauliflower grower yourself instead of all that and maintain the cauliflower network, so you can collect a share of the cauliflower fees.
So money is made by somebody somewhere putting a tax on cauliflowers?Now imagine that’s all done in code, and that’s essentially how the ethereum network works.
A base principle is I go to the person down the road, and fix their roof in exchange for a basket of apples they have grown.
Hey presto they have an actual thing, and I have an actual thing.
Take that scenario as a starting point and explain where the imaginary currencies fit in.The more ETH tokens you have, the more you can use the network and more complex transactions you can make. The network is maintained by “miners” who witness the transaction. They are rewarded for witnessing these transactions with the “gas” fee you’ve paid, plus new ethereum tokens that they have been awarded for maintaining the network.The network cannot go down, because it’s maintained by thousands of completely separate computers. Nobody has a controlling stake in the network, so it is completely decentralised, not run by a company or nation state.
Why would I want to do that? And why would I want to pay to do that?
There's the middle man or woman right there isn't it?
Have you read the article I posted earlier about Tulips, and that 'bubble' and its relationship to imaginary currencies?
Even if governments print money they eventually have problems if that money is not related to something physically tangible like oil reserves, or the creative talent within a society. The money becomes worthless.
Nobody is rushing out to buy the Korean People's Won because it has virtually nothing tangible to back it up. Nobody wants my newly dreamed up Sethcoins because there is nothing to back it up.
In your example, factored in to the price of the cauliflower is the enrichment of the soil, the use of water, and the ergs of labour used to produce it. What you buy is the cauliflower as a whole, complete with all the attendant processes that go along with it.
As for buying and selling stuff using Sethcoins, bitcoins or whatever, you assert (I think) that doing so would be somehow better if you used Sethcoins rather than the pounds sterling you earn from working.
I can't see how it can be better if Sethcoins only exist as a concept in my head, whereas Pounds sterling is rooted (sometimes badly rooted) in the productivity of the country.
You plainly don't understand how currencies work (they're not backed by anything, except a central bank, which is backed by... the currency itself ie literally trust), crypto is backed by mathematics, which means you don't have to trust it - it just is.
Have you read the bitcoin whitepaper by satoshi nakamoto i linked to earlier? It goes into far more depth and described far more simply than I ever could.0 -
Sometimes that possible, although sometimes negative interest exists and I’ve heard in Australia some banks charge simply to check a balance at an atm.seth plum said:
I am sure that to run a bank or credit card company or print and distribute money costs something. However isn’t it the case that banks take customers savings and make money from that whilst they have it, but because of scale can make enough to run the bank?Stu_of_Kunming said:All of those things require a fee Seth, it’s just already incorporated into the price.
Absolutely, which is why I’ve not ‘invested’ but I do see the obvious uses and benefits in the future.WSS said:Crypto value can be tanked by a megalomaniac sending a 7-word tweet...
If I buy the mythical cauliflower with Sterling are you saying I will get a discount on it if I buy with Sethcoins that I dream up?
My point that currency is eventually related to productivity is what needs to also be addressed. Otherwise a dreamed up currency is very similar (but worse!) to a currency based on Tulips.Free banking is like free postage, it’s incorporated into the price of what you buy.
Its my understanding that lots of processes and services, especially internationally banking can be streamlined using blockchain technology.0
