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Charlton to boycott Social Media

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  • I have to echo what @TCE said (except the comment on me, LOL), as you all know Mrs RM and I have 5 GSD's at home which we bred, and Mrs RM trains them to a very high level (you may know one of them starred in 2 Hollywood films) but, much the same as @TCE, we get abuse on the street because they are German Shepherds, yet we have to put up with smaller dogs having a go at ours, but like @TCE's dogs, they are trained not to react. Then we get comments on social media, most of them very nice, but always some nasty ones. Yet they won't say it to our faces when with the dogs, I wonder why!!!! They are chicken shit keyboard warriors that  deserve to be banned completely and forever from all social media. 
    These same types of people wouldn't dare say to Pearce's face what they type!
    Fuck them I say and if they want to argue please come and knock on my door, I'll let them explain their thoughts directly to the dogs!!
    Well, I wouldn't shout and swear at you but if you are on the same pavement as me with one of those potentially vicious animals I'd cross the road. 

    You may not like how a lot of people feel about your dogs but it's simple. They are fearful of them. You may not understand this but given that they do not know you or your animals, it makes sense to avoid you.

    Perhaps the people who've shouted and sworn at you weren't able to avoid you and your dog's barked at them. In fear all people, in fact all species, will react violently. 



    Funny (well not really) but as owners of kennels where we have had every type of dog stay here that did not know us from Adam (or Eve) we’ve only ever had one dog bite us (him not me).
    It was a chihuahua cross, who was a rescue & used to have its mouth taped because it barked too much. Hubby was trying to put its harness over its head. So quite understandable really.
    Its never the dogs, it’s the humans on the end that would make me cross the road rather than the floofs.
  • Chizz said:
    There's a lot of interesting posts on this thread with arguments and ideas new to me.

    However, there's one thing I've always hated about Twitter and that is the limit of 140 characters. It's impossible to make a reasoned argument with such a limit. Therefore only those who refuse to substantiate an argument use Twitter to push their ideas. All possible debate gets reduced to a slanging match. Potential intelligent posts go elsewhere leaving idiots to benefit with no-one to question their nonsense.

    It should be no surprise that it has become what it is. If you want to clean it up, simply remove the character limit.
    The way to get racists to express fewer racist views is to give them more space in which to express them?  That's a strange view. 

    (By the way, the character limit has been increased to 280). 
    It's not a strange view if you read my argument. 280 characters is still too little to allow any meaningful debate and plays into the hands of those who throw slogans or at worst abuse.
  • DiscoCAFC said:
    colthe3rd said:
    DiscoCAFC said:
    I don't think that's going to acheive anything and in fact I think it will just prolong the situation even more.

    Have you noticed there's been so many reports of racial abuse at black and non-white players ever since the BLM started? I think the real issue is it's in people's minds a lot more and it's getting that way more guilty racist people are going to take to social media to be keyboard warriors.

    Here's my solution:

    1: If someone is guilty of racial abuse on social media punish them even further.

    2: Stop talking about racism!!! Morgan Freeman (one of my favourite actors) is spot on here IMO. He does not want a Black History month and wants to be referred to as Morgan Freeman, not the famous black actor.

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=GeixtYS-P3s
    So first off you're accusing people who have been subject to racism that it probably didn't happen and they are imagining it?

    Then you go on to use an example of Morgan Freeman talking about black history month and use that as an analogy that people should stop talking about racism? The clue is in the title of the video, he is talking about black history month. I would imagine he would not have the same feeling about not talking about racist abuse.

    Also tell me do you have this same opinion when talking about other things? Should victims of bullying stop talking about it? What about homophobia? Misogyny? Rape?

    What a very strange post.
    I never said that and really think you need to read my post again. Totally lost how you think I described people who have been subjected to racism have been imagining it? Got no idea where you got that from me!

    I’m saying it’s been in peoples minds a lot more now BLM have been in the limelight and more guilty people have been spouting racist abuse at players. Did my quote of “ it's getting that way more guilty racist people are going to take to social media to be keyboard warriors” not give you a indication what I was on about? 

    Now if you still think I describe people who have been subjected to racism have been imagining it then you need help mate.
    I've re-read your post and I apologise, I don't think you meant what I replied with. However, I'm still a bit confused at your point, are you suggesting that in the rise of the BLM movement and other anti racism campaigns that this caused racism to increase?
  • Chizz said:
    There's a lot of interesting posts on this thread with arguments and ideas new to me.

    However, there's one thing I've always hated about Twitter and that is the limit of 140 characters. It's impossible to make a reasoned argument with such a limit. Therefore only those who refuse to substantiate an argument use Twitter to push their ideas. All possible debate gets reduced to a slanging match. Potential intelligent posts go elsewhere leaving idiots to benefit with no-one to question their nonsense.

    It should be no surprise that it has become what it is. If you want to clean it up, simply remove the character limit.
    The way to get racists to express fewer racist views is to give them more space in which to express them?  That's a strange view. 

    (By the way, the character limit has been increased to 280). 
    It's not a strange view if you read my argument. 280 characters is still too little to allow any meaningful debate and plays into the hands of those who throw slogans or at worst abuse.
    But that is Twitter’s Social Media USP, like photos are Instagrams USP, video hosting / YouTube etc. 

    Community blogs / discussion forums (such as this) are a better suiter for potentially more longer reads / in depth debate / specialism. 

    Each type of social media platform does not (and should not) be a ‘fit for all’
  • As I get most of my matchday information from CAFC tweets and the opposing teams tweets, I expect to be very quite on the matchday thread on Saturday
  • colthe3rd said:
    DiscoCAFC said:
    colthe3rd said:
    DiscoCAFC said:
    I don't think that's going to acheive anything and in fact I think it will just prolong the situation even more.

    Have you noticed there's been so many reports of racial abuse at black and non-white players ever since the BLM started? I think the real issue is it's in people's minds a lot more and it's getting that way more guilty racist people are going to take to social media to be keyboard warriors.

    Here's my solution:

    1: If someone is guilty of racial abuse on social media punish them even further.

    2: Stop talking about racism!!! Morgan Freeman (one of my favourite actors) is spot on here IMO. He does not want a Black History month and wants to be referred to as Morgan Freeman, not the famous black actor.

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=GeixtYS-P3s
    So first off you're accusing people who have been subject to racism that it probably didn't happen and they are imagining it?

    Then you go on to use an example of Morgan Freeman talking about black history month and use that as an analogy that people should stop talking about racism? The clue is in the title of the video, he is talking about black history month. I would imagine he would not have the same feeling about not talking about racist abuse.

    Also tell me do you have this same opinion when talking about other things? Should victims of bullying stop talking about it? What about homophobia? Misogyny? Rape?

    What a very strange post.
    I never said that and really think you need to read my post again. Totally lost how you think I described people who have been subjected to racism have been imagining it? Got no idea where you got that from me!

    I’m saying it’s been in peoples minds a lot more now BLM have been in the limelight and more guilty people have been spouting racist abuse at players. Did my quote of “ it's getting that way more guilty racist people are going to take to social media to be keyboard warriors” not give you a indication what I was on about? 

    Now if you still think I describe people who have been subjected to racism have been imagining it then you need help mate.
    I've re-read your post and I apologise, I don't think you meant what I replied with. However, I'm still a bit confused at your point, are you suggesting that in the rise of the BLM movement and other anti racism campaigns that this caused racism to increase?
    No worries.

    That’s what I think IMO. I think Morgan Freeman summed it up well when we should stop talking about Race and racism will decline. Now the BLM and other groups are in the limelight the awareness is in peoples minds but I also think it brings out the worst in the guilty ones at the same time. I don’t think racism will ever go away no matter how much we all try to stamp it out as there’s imbeciles out there.

    I do however think social media, the government and all the football governing bodies need to step up on this. There’s too many shortcuts for those who like to abuse players online. Maybe once these 3 groups may take action then this issue might decrease.
  • Seems we started boycotting playing football last night. ;)
  • edited April 2021
    If Charlton want to do something, then each to their own, they are allowed to, but the question is always: what do you want to happen?
    I may be a cynic in my old age, but, to me, phrases like "need to do more" and "raising awareness" ring too much of "I have changed my social-media profile picture, so can someone else come along and magic up a solution to the problem please".
    As is clear from this thread, the social-media companies absolutely do focus (and spend) on this already, and would stop it if they were able, but the technology just does not exist. So many solutions have been offered in the past and they all have massive flaws. Ban people: ok but they can just set up a new account or a shared IP address. Asking the social-media companies to moderate every post essentially ends social media. Make everyone use their real names: ok, but we have a big problem with doxing already and now we are suggesting that everyone will know who you are and so often where you live and work.
    Without concrete, practicable things that you are campaigning for, then any action like this will have more than a whiff of being seen to do something showy (which does not cost anything) to improve the corporate brand. (Whether that impression is fair or not.)
    I have the same criticism with BLM as a whole. I honestly do understand the frustration: too often it seems to present that there is an easy button that could be pressed to make everything right and this is not happening because of a lack of will. But the reality is that, quite rightly, UK society has been driving out racism for years and has been hugely successful - all the easy wins have been won.
    If you do not have specific and practicable goals then your protest risks coming across as preachy and self-serving, and worse than that, in constantly driving this to the top of people's thinking then I am sure it does make things worse. You want to make some teenager write rude words on the internet? Try a load of adults preaching at them that it is a very naughty thing to do.
    And the tragedy is that we were so getting there as a society in this country - until recently major research was telling us how much we had rid society of racism. Now, in trying to help, we risk raising this demon again.
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  • If Charlton want to do something, then each to their own, they are allowed to, but the question is always: what do you want to happen?
    I may be a cynic in my old age, but, to me, phrases like "need to do more" and "raising awareness" ring too much of "I have changed my social-media profile picture, so can someone else come along and magic up a solution to the problem please".
    As is clear from this thread, the social-media companies absolutely do focus (and spend) on this already, and would stop it if they were able, but the technology just does not exist. So many solutions have been offered in the past and they all have massive flaws. Ban people: ok but they can just set up a new account or a shared IP address. Asking the social-media companies to moderate every post essentially ends social media. Make everyone use their real names: ok, but we have a big problem with doxing already and now we are suggesting that everyone will know who you are and so often where you live and work.
    Without concrete, practicable things that you are campaigning for, then any action like this will have more than a whiff of being seen to do something showy (which does not cost anything) to improve the corporate brand. (Whether that impression is fair or not.)
    I have the same criticism with BLM as a whole. I honestly do understand the frustration: too often it seems to present that there is an easy button that could be pressed to make everything right and this is not happening because of a lack of will. But the reality is that, quite rightly, UK society has been driving out racism for years and has been hugely successful - all the easy wins have been won.
    If you do not have specific and practicable goals then your protest risks coming across as preachy and self-serving, and worse than that, in constantly driving this to the top of people's thinking then I am sure it does make things worse. You want to make some teenager write rude words on the internet? Try a load of adults preaching at them that it is a very naughty thing to do.
    And the tragedy is that we were so getting there as a society in this country - until recently major research was telling us how much we had rid society of racism. Now, in trying to help, we risk raising this demon again.
    I would say, and perhaps others too, that the major research that came out recently regarding ridding society of racism is flawed.
    Loads of people, including academics that were falsely cited as contributing to the research have criticised such research in depth. Not as a way of keeping a pot boiling, but because the report was flawed, and those promoting the report are at liberty to answer those criticisms if they wish, and if they can.
    They can start by countering the critique from the United Nations (sorry can’t do the link on this tablet...I need a computer mouse).
    I disagree that that UK society has been driving out racism successfully for years. I used to think the UK was heading in a good direction but I was wrong. Looking back now at the plethora of Mail and Express anti immigrant headlines, added to by the likes of Farage and a stance supported by millions of voters in several forms of elections and votes over the last five years has utterly changed my previous optimism.
    I agree that pinning anti racist initiatives down to practical action is difficult, and indeed any taking place currently is not easy to discern, especially as the real challenge is not so much changing job adverts or the number of racially profiled stops and searches, but challenging what is in hearts and minds of millions of British people.
    I do wonder if the position you’re taking is that by talking about racism these days we’re fuelling it, and it is best to keep quiet about it.
    Personally I think that trying to change the hearts and minds of millions of British people is a huge challenge that will take years, a range of educational initiatives, and by keeping the issue at the top, front and centre of societal discourse.
    If we have common ground it is probably around token gestures not doing the job. I would not get rid of them because of that, but develop and increase them to a point they go beyond tokenism.
    I don’t see much hope for improvement in what remains of my lifetime.
  • Racism will never disappear unfortunately. Humans will  discriminate against someone who is different to them them it’s a primal instinct we have.
  • Really good points made by both of you and I probably agree with you both more than I come across as having done. But, me being me, just to come back on a couple of points!

    @Henry Irving I take the point on pushing to 'do more', but the reality is that any account found guilty of racist abuse by, say, Twitter will be banned for life - what is the 'more' that might possibly be done in a situation where anyone can just set up a new account? I don't expect any campaign to have every detail worked out, but they do at least need an idea of how what they want might conceptually be possible, or else one comes across as not being serious.
    On doxing, I had understood that the proposal was that nobody should be able to hide behind an avatar name, because if everyone knew who they are then peer pressure would stop them from behaving badly; is that not right?
    Over-exposure and acting out in reaction to perceived preaching are both perfectly well attested sociological realities, they apply across all society and it seems unlikely that they would not operate here.
    This is particularly true when there is a suspicion of a degree of self-service at no price - after all, would any of us be totally shocked to find that this turned up on a grant application somewhere down the line as proof of CAFC's value to society?

    @seth plum I think you are referring to recent political report on the subject, which I personally found compelling, but I appreciate that you may not. But I was really talking about the type of research that was part of that report, such as that done by Ipsos Mori (https://www.ipsos.com/ipsos-mori/en-uk/attitudes-race-and-inequality-great-britain). The improvements cited are staggering:
    The vast majority, 89%, claim they would be happy for their child to marry someone from another ethnic group, and 70% strongly agree.  This is an improvement from January 2009, when 75% said they would be happy overall, and 41% strongly.
    Similarly, the vast majority (93%, nearly all of them strongly disagreeing at 84%) disagree with the statement that, “to be truly British you have to be White”.  In October 2006, 82% disagreed,  55% strongly.  The proportion who agree with the statement has fallen from 10% to 3% in the last 14 years.
    If you care to look up the numbers for other countries in Western Europe or the world more generally, tend to be eye-watering. The UK (often along with Sweden) are absolute bastions of good practice.

    To mix my bird metaphors: we are so lucky to live in the black swan society and must be hugely wary not to kill the golden goose.
  • edited April 2021
    Really good points made by both of you and I probably agree with you both more than I come across as having done. But, me being me, just to come back on a couple of points!

    @Henry Irving I take the point on pushing to 'do more', but the reality is that any account found guilty of racist abuse by, say, Twitter will be banned for life - what is the 'more' that might possibly be done in a situation where anyone can just set up a new account? I don't expect any campaign to have every detail worked out, but they do at least need an idea of how what they want might conceptually be possible, or else one comes across as not being serious.
    On doxing, I had understood that the proposal was that nobody should be able to hide behind an avatar name, because if everyone knew who they are then peer pressure would stop them from behaving badly; is that not right?
    Over-exposure and acting out in reaction to perceived preaching are both perfectly well attested sociological realities, they apply across all society and it seems unlikely that they would not operate here.
    This is particularly true when there is a suspicion of a degree of self-service at no price - after all, would any of us be totally shocked to find that this turned up on a grant application somewhere down the line as proof of CAFC's value to society?

    @seth plum I think you are referring to recent political report on the subject, which I personally found compelling, but I appreciate that you may not. But I was really talking about the type of research that was part of that report, such as that done by Ipsos Mori (https://www.ipsos.com/ipsos-mori/en-uk/attitudes-race-and-inequality-great-britain). The improvements cited are staggering:
    The vast majority, 89%, claim they would be happy for their child to marry someone from another ethnic group, and 70% strongly agree.  This is an improvement from January 2009, when 75% said they would be happy overall, and 41% strongly.
    Similarly, the vast majority (93%, nearly all of them strongly disagreeing at 84%) disagree with the statement that, “to be truly British you have to be White”.  In October 2006, 82% disagreed,  55% strongly.  The proportion who agree with the statement has fallen from 10% to 3% in the last 14 years.
    If you care to look up the numbers for other countries in Western Europe or the world more generally, tend to be eye-watering. The UK (often along with Sweden) are absolute bastions of good practice.

    To mix my bird metaphors: we are so lucky to live in the black swan society and must be hugely wary not to kill the golden goose.
    I am interested in the report you cite that there has been a change in responses to a question regarding marriage and colour.
    I am not convinced that those responses paint enough of a picture though.
    Only last week or the week before for example we had the story of the police officer assaulting a black man, causing severe injury, as he left a graveyard with his kids after putting flowers on his dead wife’s grave. The guy had his legs swiped away and he was hospitalised in a case where the judge said it was racial profiling.
    I of course would also point to the votes I alluded to earlier, but also to other stuff like the issue of BLM demonstrations, and the institutional outrage about the statue of a slaver.
    I suspect that if the mori organisation asked different questions of certain racial groups the findings would be different.
    Are you following the case involving Stephen Yaxley Lennon at the moment? A person who had been able to garner vociferous support. A phenomena that would not have happened with such intensity in previous years.
    Now I am well aware that I would be characterised as someone who would see racism everywhere he looked.
    My answer would be that some of us have to be vigilant or complacency sets in.
    (I think black swan was a film, but alas I haven’t seen it).

    Only the other day on this very site a poster felt confident enough to make allusions to Chinese Takeaways when discussing clothes labelling.
    Attitudes are current, and although that one comment was no big deal in isolation, would you say that the phrase ‘going for a Chinky’, or ‘Chinky takeaway’ or the assumption that people with a certain look all work in the Chinese food sector are things that no longer happen?
    You and I have differing world views, you the optimist, me the pessimist I would say.

  • @seth plum I think in this context "black swan" implies that our society is an outlier or unusual exception to the rule, in reference to a philosophical idea called the black swan problem. IIRC (and this is not guaranteed) it relates to the statement "if all swans we've seen are white, then all swans are white" being falsified by the existence of a black swan. @SteveKielyCambridge was that where you were coming from there?
    As far as the idea of people having to use their real names on Social Media to stop people behaving abusively goes, I think how some people behave on Facebook has shown that doesn't necessarily follow. In addition, there are all sorts of people who need to use pseudonyms for entirely legitimate reasons - victims of domestic violence / stalking, LGBT people who aren't out to their families, people who work in jobs where they are contractually forbidden to make comment to the media without permission, women who want to discuss non-female stereotypical topics without being patronised or hit on.
    I should also point out that not all the mods know the real names of people on here - we can see your email addresses, but they don't necessarily have your names in, and as far as I'm aware any additional information you provide when signing up isn't shared beyond those processing it.
  • There was an item on the news this morning regarding social media.
    It turns out that people with lost dogs put out an appeal on their computers, then one got contacted by a stranger saying ‘I’ve got your dog, give me £1000 or I’ll kill it’.
    Pretty nasty way of taking advantage,
  • edited April 2021
    Not all abuse on twitter is racist 

    Where does this fit into the "don't talk about it, you only make it worse" debate


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  • clive said:
    Answers the questions about what the boycott aims, and doesn't aim, to achieve and lists specific actions it wants the social media companies to take.

    It also asks the government to act.
  • clive said:
    Answers the questions about what the boycott aims, and doesn't aim, to achieve and lists specific actions it wants the social media companies to take.

    It also asks the government to act.
    And it is very clear that the club don't see this boycott as a "solution" to the problem, it's just one part of a bigger picture.
  • thenewbie said:
    clive said:
    Answers the questions about what the boycott aims, and doesn't aim, to achieve and lists specific actions it wants the social media companies to take.

    It also asks the government to act.
    And it is very clear that the club don't see this boycott as a "solution" to the problem, it's just one part of a bigger picture.
    They should tweet a link to it so more people can see it
  • Interesting discussion... I have just procrastinated my way to this paper. Not read it in full, bit it shows that tolerance in terms of race and sexuality is increasing for all age groups, but a recent trend of less tolerance to "immigrants" 

    https://journals.sagepub.com › pdf
    Are today's youth more tolerant? Trends in ... - SAGE Journals

    Seems an interesting read
  • For me, peer pressure is going to be important. If your mates challenge your views it's going to be more resonant than if someone from a group you don't like or respect is challenging you. It's more likely to happen in a respectful manner is well than having insults flying about
  • thenewbie said:
    McBobbin said:
    For me, peer pressure is going to be important. If your mates challenge your views it's going to be more resonant than if someone from a group you don't like or respect is challenging you. It's more likely to happen in a respectful manner is well than having insults flying about
    True, but it's not always easy to challenge your friends. I've got friends who've said things that I thought crossed a line but I was too worried about causing a rift or an argument to say so out loud. Its not a frequent thing either (just all of us several several sheets to the wind) but that actually made it more awkward as there was the legitimate chance he was just being a drunk idiot in the moment.

    I'm not proud of it but I would be very surprised if I'm the only one to have been in this particular situation.
    I get that, and know that I say a lot of things to my friends that I wouldn't say at work for example, and certainly I say things that I wouldn't want played back to be in court, gallows humour and all that. That's more with close friends, many of whom I've known for donkeys years and I don't know if I'd be friends with them if I met them for the first time today... But there have been times when I've stepped in of someone went too far, and I've been called out for being a twat as well, and actually thought about it 
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