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Maddison

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  • RobRob
    edited January 2021
    I think the way he is makes him the player that he is. I think if Bowyer could have just left him to do what he does naturally then we could have had quite a player. But that's not in Bowyer's style unfortunately and players must fit into a certain way of playing, else you're on your bike. Shame because in the brief time I saw Maddison it was obvious the natural creative skill that he's got. I think that's a deficiency in Bowyer's makeup. Surprising as he was supposedly such a rebel himself. Actually it takes quite a strong manager to allow a certain type of player the freedom to play how they want. You would think that Bowyer is a strong manager but I think there's a difference between being strong and being controlling. And that's the same in the business world so not just football related.
  • RobRob
    edited January 2021
    Rob said:
    I think the way he is makes him the player that he is. I think if Bowyer could have just left him to do what he does naturally then we could have had quite a player. But that's not in Bowyer's style unfortunately and players must fit into a certain way of playing, else you're on your bike. Shame because in the brief time I saw Maddison it was obvious the natural creative skill that he's got. I think that's a deficiency in Bowyer's makeup. Surprising as he was supposedly such a rebel himself. Actually it takes quite a strong manager to allow a certain type of player the freedom to play how they want. You would think that Bowyer is a strong manager but I think there's a difference between being strong and being controlling. And that's the same in the business world so not just football related.

    When nurture defies nature - LB talking about his time under George Graham:

    “In George Graham, the club brought in someone who instilled something new in me. Who made me a better player.

    “How? He dropped me. I’d been playing well: scoring goals, making goals, but I didn’t really track back. Until I did that, George said I wasn’t going to play.

    “I wasn’t convinced. He won’t drop me. I’m flying, but he did. I remember one game, we were 3-2 down to Derby [County] after the first half and he brought me off the bench at half-time. We ended up winning 4-3, and I scored the winner.

    “I played really well when I came on, too. Changed the game. Surely, I’ve got to start next week.

    But no. I was back on the bench. That lasted for about six weeks. In George’s mind, until I started doing the other side of the game, I was worth sacrificing for the good of the team. Yeah, I might do something good going forward, but I could let them down going the other way,

    “I learned that you can’t carry anyone. It wasn’t about punishing me. He was thinking about the team.”

    And that is why LB treats the likes of Maddison, Morgan, Williams and Oztumer the way he does. Because, in his mind, what was good for him is good for them.

    Fair point. The problem is, not everyone is the same and that’s where Bowyer’s inflexibility comes in. To me that’s what man management is all about. To be able to adjust managerial style depending on the individual or circumstance. Maddison certainly marches to his own drum but that’s what makes him the creative player he is. I don’t think that should be suppressed for the sake of control. You can end up with a bunch of robots. 
  • I remember Neil Warnock in his autobiography saying that he let Adel Taarabt get away with murder so that he'd just turn up on matchday and win QPR games. 
  • edited January 2021
    My mate who does the lines and 4th official of efl games said when we signed him he is a bad egg. 

    I don’t think he’s been given a fair chance And from the day he signed it was decided some of our fans weren’t going to take to him. 
  • It was interesting to watch him (not) warm up before a game when I allowed to watch from the the east stand.

    Never completed any of the exercises.
  • Like most I doubt we will get to see much of MM in our team now. It is a real shame as I really liked what I briefly saw of him. However there must be other issues with him otherwise he would be playing at a much higher lever, it certainly isnt due to lack of ability that he isnt. I supose he will join that long list of people that never reached their potential in life. Hopefully he doesnt wake up one day and regret it.
  • edited January 2021
    Both sides at fault here. Manager shouldn't be saying he doesn't care if his player is injured. Player should just move on and get on with it. I really hope this works out in the end because Maddison is a joy to watch at times.
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  • Redrobo said:
    Rob said:
    I think the way he is makes him the player that he is. I think if Bowyer could have just left him to do what he does naturally then we could have had quite a player. But that's not in Bowyer's style unfortunately and players must fit into a certain way of playing, else you're on your bike. Shame because in the brief time I saw Maddison it was obvious the natural creative skill that he's got. I think that's a deficiency in Bowyer's makeup. Surprising as he was supposedly such a rebel himself. Actually it takes quite a strong manager to allow a certain type of player the freedom to play how they want. You would think that Bowyer is a strong manager but I think there's a difference between being strong and being controlling. And that's the same in the business world so not just football related.

    When nurture defies nature - LB talking about his time under George Graham:

    “In George Graham, the club brought in someone who instilled something new in me. Who made me a better player.

    “How? He dropped me. I’d been playing well: scoring goals, making goals, but I didn’t really track back. Until I did that, George said I wasn’t going to play.

    “I wasn’t convinced. He won’t drop me. I’m flying, but he did. I remember one game, we were 3-2 down to Derby [County] after the first half and he brought me off the bench at half-time. We ended up winning 4-3, and I scored the winner.

    “I played really well when I came on, too. Changed the game. Surely, I’ve got to start next week.

    But no. I was back on the bench. That lasted for about six weeks. In George’s mind, until I started doing the other side of the game, I was worth sacrificing for the good of the team. Yeah, I might do something good going forward, but I could let them down going the other way,

    “I learned that you can’t carry anyone. It wasn’t about punishing me. He was thinking about the team.”

    And that is why LB treats the likes of Maddison, Morgan, Williams and Oztumer the way he does. Because, in his mind, what was good for him is good for them.

    Spot on. A lesson well learnt from one of the greats. Ronaldo one of the best players in the World over the last decade, but look at his work rate and commitment. Look at Liverpool and Man City. Gifted players, but when they lose the ball the work rate to regain possession is incredible. Grealish is a fantastic and skilful player, but does the hard work as well.
    Mourinho has been an incredible manager winning most trophy’s in football - but look at his treatment of Deli Ali. Good player but a bit lazy. He has been given his chance, but it looks like he will have to leave.
    Morgan has done the opposite of Maddison. I loved his yellow for pulling back that player. No one is skipping past him again, he tracks back and works harder and with his vision and skill he has a very bright future. 
    What Bowyer is asking for is the bare minimum from a professional footballer. 100% commitment on the pitch. It is also what I expect as a fan. I can forgive a player’s limitations, but not the effort.
    This is exactly why Albie Morgan will have a fantastic career in the game and Marcus Maddison is already on the decline at 27. 
  • edited January 2021
    Redrobo said:
    Cafc43v3r said:
    Talking about his newest addition, Addicks boss Lee Bowyer added: “Marcus is someone we tried to bring here in January, but obviously the embargo was in place. We’ve finally got our man and got it over the line.

    “He brings goals. His stats over the last few years are excellent, he regularly gets to double figures in goals and gets a lot of assists, so he brings about 25 goals to a team in a season.

    "He’s an experienced player that knows this league inside out.”
    1st stage of building his confidence and very good management; especially considering he was a ‘free’ who nobody had touched with a barge pole - even though he had been available all summer. 
    I am sure that ‘issues’ were mentioned when we signed him, and I don’t think there can be many who were not at least puzzled at why he was still available. The inner football world would have known and so would have SG, Bows etc. But was it worth a risk in the position we were in? I would say yes and think that if anyone could get him back on track it would have been Bowyer.
    Tweets in the middle of the night whilst scoffing pizza suggests to me that his issues are deeper than just not liking training or similar.

    Others said something about Bowyer as a manager should have gone over to see how is was. I don’t know what organisation you work for, but if you are not going into work you call your boss and explain the problem. You update them while you are off. When you are fit to return you call them. The first thing you do when you get in you go to see them and let them know you are back. You don’t expect your manager to have to come looking for you. It doesn’t work both ways. 

    Signing him was worth the risk. Some you lose. It would take a fantastic change of attitude for him to get himself back into the squad. Unfortunately I don’t think he has that in him, and there is nobody else to blame for that.
    Not with the cap it wasn't, it was a dreadful decision.

    Can't cry about the cap tying your hands behind your back after squandering wages on a risk, makes you look an idiot.

    I like the fact Bowyer takes no shit, and only wants a certain type of player playing for him, but then why sign Maddison in the first place?
  • Croydon said:
    Redrobo said:
    Cafc43v3r said:
    Talking about his newest addition, Addicks boss Lee Bowyer added: “Marcus is someone we tried to bring here in January, but obviously the embargo was in place. We’ve finally got our man and got it over the line.

    “He brings goals. His stats over the last few years are excellent, he regularly gets to double figures in goals and gets a lot of assists, so he brings about 25 goals to a team in a season.

    "He’s an experienced player that knows this league inside out.”
    1st stage of building his confidence and very good management; especially considering he was a ‘free’ who nobody had touched with a barge pole - even though he had been available all summer. 
    I am sure that ‘issues’ were mentioned when we signed him, and I don’t think there can be many who were not at least puzzled at why he was still available. The inner football world would have known and so would have SG, Bows etc. But was it worth a risk in the position we were in? I would say yes and think that if anyone could get him back on track it would have been Bowyer.
    Tweets in the middle of the night whilst scoffing pizza suggests to me that his issues are deeper than just not liking training or similar.

    Others said something about Bowyer as a manager should have gone over to see how is was. I don’t know what organisation you work for, but if you are not going into work you call your boss and explain the problem. You update them while you are off. When you are fit to return you call them. The first thing you do when you get in you go to see them and let them know you are back. You don’t expect your manager to have to come looking for you. It doesn’t work both ways. 

    Signing him was worth the risk. Some you lose. It would take a fantastic change of attitude for him to get himself back into the squad. Unfortunately I don’t think he has that in him, and there is nobody else to blame for that.
    Not with the cap it wasn't, it was a dreadful decision.

    Can't cry about the cap tying your hands behind your back after squandering wages on a risk, makes you look an idiot.

    I like the fact Bowyer takes no shit, and only wants a certain type of player playing for him, but then why sign Maddison in the first place?
    I agree. As I live in Peterborough I have heard loads about his attitude.  When his name was first mentioned as a possible signing I wasn't happy. Then I decided that we should give him a chance as he is a very skillful player. 
  • Just had a listen to Gallen's interview at the time that we signed Maddison - "first thing I check is do they play matches because we can't afford to sign someone who gets injured a lot and we've had a few of those! He consistently gets games, consistently gets goals, consistently gets assists".

    To those who do not believe that "Charltonisation" exists I give you 4 League starts in 4 months. Either that or we needed to do a bit more research. 
  • Precisely what with AA? Until Mr Sandgaard appeared our scouting consisted of mainly just Gallen, a few analysts and part timers.

    Maddison made just 6 starts in 2020. Now you would like to think a professional footballer would recognise he is actually an athlete but I have no idea of any personal issues which may have distracted his focus.

    At his age your natural fitness has started to wane. If active on a daily basis you tend not to notice but pre season training gets harder every year for a reason. Probably for the first time Maddison signed 4 games into the season.

    AA has it right with his comments re Graham.  It served Bowyer for his entire career. To suggest you disrespect such standards to accommodate one or two players positions such players as not needing to improve themselves or their contribution. That’s your professional stance?

    If Hales hadn’t developed his game he would have been less than half the player as his pace slowed. On his return he had learned to lead a line, stretch the play, pull players out of position adding a different level of attacking threat. 
    Not crossing the half way line? Do you suggest Hales did not put in his shift?
    Comparing his work rate, his physicality & intensity to Maddison? Really?

    This «  managerial » agenda is false logic. Can we be clear? None of Maddison, Williams or Morgan would be here if Bowyer didn’t think they could play.

    There is no equivalence to any other industry. Football is a real time, continually interactive, highly competitive dynamic operating with a real time finite resource. You have 10 outfield players.

    The Taarabt comment reinforces my earlier point. It stands against the normal Warnock disciplines of 7 years ago. He allowed Taarabt some freedoms because he had the luxury of a stable club environment which the player could complement though notably as the team struggled Taarabt went increasingly AWOL.

    We have a new midfield of Gilbey, Shinnie, Watson, joining Forster-Caskey, Morgan & Pratley. Having never played together before Gilbert, Shinnie and Watson have then all been injured. With Pratley filling in at CB it speaks to the diminished spine of the team from which you set the platform. 

    In such situations the bare minimum you have to ask of Williams, Maddison, Morgan, Millar is to compete. Morgan & Millar have stepped up. That is the nature of competition. 

    I have no problem with any player marching to his own drum providing the support infrastructure is there. When you make such allowances someone has to pick up the things they do not do. Someone has to provide the platform for such talents to fully function.

    We are not there yet. As things settle Maddison may yet have an opportunity to contribute but with Millar stepping in he may have a problem. Even then if Maddison can march to his own drum do Williams or Morgan get their own drum? Just how many drums do you want?

    In any walk of life marching to your own drum could not be more simple. You deliver. Been there. March to your own drum and fail and you pay the price. That’s life. On occasion been there too.

    Arm round the shoulder? Not Bowyers day job. The boss gets to set the standards & disciplines. In a clubhouse with no hiding place it is for Jackson, Marshall & Basey to have the ear of the players and control daily issues. People  marching to their drum risks divisions. If you consistently cost even a semi pro his win, draw, position bonus the manager will be the least of your problems.

    I doubt there is anything Bowyer has said that will not have been commented on by half the clubhouse. People whispering in corners is death to any clubhouse.  Indeed they may be his intended audience. In this industry your performance does not get more public. Embarras me in public at your own risk.

    This is not about errors of execution it is about failures of professional commitment. Harsh? Unfair? Possibly but Bowyer has spent a working life time in this environment.

    I am entirely comfortable Bowyer will let Maddison play however he wishes PROVIDED HE COMPETES and delivers and that decision sits entirely with Maddison.
    I have to say Grappie it’s great to see you able to focus on the football again rather than untangling... as much as it was possible to do so...all the BS of the back office. Good man.
  • Unless something really dreadful has happened I think he’s too good a player at this level to just give up on. 
  • Fosu left after his relationship broke down with Lee Bowyer. I couldn't have been the only person who thought he had talent but had lost his way.  

    Maddison at 27 should be at his peak and tearing up League 1.

    The omens don't look good after Bowyers words after MM short Bizarre cameo in his last match.

    Personally gutted as he is the best striker of a football in our squad.


  • Fosu left after his relationship broke down with Lee Bowyer. I couldn't have been the only person who thought he had talent but had lost his way.  

    Maddison at 27 should be at his peak and tearing up League 1.

    The omens don't look good after Bowyers words after MM short Bizarre cameo in his last match.

    Personally gutted as he is the best striker of a football in our squad.


    Fosu is typical of the sort of player Bowyer struggles with. 
    Oztumer 
    Williams 
    Maddison 
    All on that list. 
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  • I think Bowyer saw him as a challenge and that he could get through to him(same as managers though thay could get through to Balotelli),well some players,are beyond help if they dont want it.
  • edited January 2021
    Fosu left after his relationship broke down with Lee Bowyer. I couldn't have been the only person who thought he had talent but had lost his way.  

    Maddison at 27 should be at his peak and tearing up League 1.

    The omens don't look good after Bowyers words after MM short Bizarre cameo in his last match.

    Personally gutted as he is the best striker of a football in our squad.


    Fosu is typical of the sort of player Bowyer struggles with. 
    Oztumer 
    Williams 
    Maddison 
    All on that list. 
    Think the issue is sort of what Curbs said about Bowyer on the weekend

    As a 17-year old he was someone who could do everything, could shoot, pass and tackle

    So Bowyer himself knows something about being a flair player

    Just with him if you dont do similar and put in the hard work as well as the impressive stuff he isnt interested - As you mention four who werent the great helping out defensively but there are other flair players he has successfully worked with that have put in that donkey work.

    Wasnt it early in his Management role that he mentioned being dropped by George Graham because he didnt do the donkey work himself at times?
  • edited January 2021
    Here you go @ForeverAddickted

     I’d been playing well: scoring goals, making goals. But I didn’t really track back. Until I did that, George said I wasn’t going to play.

    "I wasn’t convinced. He won’t drop me. I’m flying.

    "But he did. I remember one game, we were 3-2 down to Derby after the first half and he brought me off the bench at half-time. We ended up winning 4-3, and I scored the winner.

    "I played really well when I came on, too. Changed the game. Surely, I’ve got to start next week.

    "But no. I was back on the bench. That lasted for about six weeks. In George’s mind, until I started doing the other side of the game, I was worth sacrificing for the good of the team. Yeah, I might do something good going forward, but I could let them down going the other way,

    "I learned that you can’t carry anyone. It wasn’t about punishing me – he was thinking about the team.

    "It worked: instead of me just being a midfielder who got forward and scored goals, George turned me into a midfielder who got forward, scored goals and defended. A midfielder who was better for the team", he added.


  • Fosu left after his relationship broke down with Lee Bowyer. I couldn't have been the only person who thought he had talent but had lost his way.  

    Maddison at 27 should be at his peak and tearing up League 1.

    The omens don't look good after Bowyers words after MM short Bizarre cameo in his last match.

    Personally gutted as he is the best striker of a football in our squad.


    Fosu is typical of the sort of player Bowyer struggles with. 
    Oztumer 
    Williams 
    Maddison 
    All on that list. 
    I think it's more that they struggle to adapt. We didn't play with wingers so Fosu was tried at the tip of the diamond and up front and looked poor whenever he played there. Oztumer was played at the tip of the diamond and at the start of this season wide in a front 3, was regularly injured and probably had one very good 45 minutes in a Charlton shirt. Williams was excellent for us second half of the League One season when he joined and at the start of the Championship, got injured and then hasn't returned to form since. I think it's to early to say on Maddison but he hasn't done what has been asked of him yet and hasn't been fit for a consistent period. It's easy to blame the manager but flair player tend to disappoint as much as they dazzle and apart from Fosu they've all had real fitness issues
  • Off_it said:
    Fed up with reading about the bloke. Some people seem to think hes the messiah and are very willing to take his side over a bloke who has sweated blood for the club over the past few years. Shame on you.

    If Bowyer doesnt rate him or want to play him that's fine with me. Hes the boss and he will have seen more of the player than any of us. That's his job and he stands or falls by his decisions. 

    How about just backing him when the chips are down. Rather than picking over everything and trying to bring him down because you think you know better about a player you've barely seen. 
    100% Give this man a promote.
  • Off_it said:
    Fed up with reading about the bloke. Some people seem to think hes the messiah and are very willing to take his side over a bloke who has sweated blood for the club over the past few years. Shame on you.

    If Bowyer doesnt rate him or want to play him that's fine with me. Hes the boss and he will have seen more of the player than any of us. That's his job and he stands or falls by his decisions. 

    How about just backing him when the chips are down. Rather than picking over everything and trying to bring him down because you think you know better about a player you've barely seen. 
    Personally, what's frustrating for me is the wages taken up under the cap. Not backing Maddison over Bowyer at all, but seems like a ridiculous punt to have taken when the purse strings have been forced so tight.
  • Precisely what with AA? Until Mr Sandgaard appeared our scouting consisted of mainly just Gallen, a few analysts and part timers.

    Maddison made just 6 starts in 2020. Now you would like to think a professional footballer would recognise he is actually an athlete but I have no idea of any personal issues which may have distracted his focus.

    At his age your natural fitness has started to wane. If active on a daily basis you tend not to notice but pre season training gets harder every year for a reason. Probably for the first time Maddison signed 4 games into the season.

    AA has it right with his comments re Graham.  It served Bowyer for his entire career. To suggest you disrespect such standards to accommodate one or two players positions such players as not needing to improve themselves or their contribution. That’s your professional stance?

    If Hales hadn’t developed his game he would have been less than half the player as his pace slowed. On his return he had learned to lead a line, stretch the play, pull players out of position adding a different level of attacking threat. 
    Not crossing the half way line? Do you suggest Hales did not put in his shift?
    Comparing his work rate, his physicality & intensity to Maddison? Really?

    This «  managerial » agenda is false logic. Can we be clear? None of Maddison, Williams or Morgan would be here if Bowyer didn’t think they could play.

    There is no equivalence to any other industry. Football is a real time, continually interactive, highly competitive dynamic operating with a real time finite resource. You have 10 outfield players.

    The Taarabt comment reinforces my earlier point. It stands against the normal Warnock disciplines of 7 years ago. He allowed Taarabt some freedoms because he had the luxury of a stable club environment which the player could complement though notably as the team struggled Taarabt went increasingly AWOL.

    We have a new midfield of Gilbey, Shinnie, Watson, joining Forster-Caskey, Morgan & Pratley. Having never played together before Gilbert, Shinnie and Watson have then all been injured. With Pratley filling in at CB it speaks to the diminished spine of the team from which you set the platform. 

    In such situations the bare minimum you have to ask of Williams, Maddison, Morgan, Millar is to compete. Morgan & Millar have stepped up. That is the nature of competition. 

    I have no problem with any player marching to his own drum providing the support infrastructure is there. When you make such allowances someone has to pick up the things they do not do. Someone has to provide the platform for such talents to fully function.

    We are not there yet. As things settle Maddison may yet have an opportunity to contribute but with Millar stepping in he may have a problem. Even then if Maddison can march to his own drum do Williams or Morgan get their own drum? Just how many drums do you want?

    In any walk of life marching to your own drum could not be more simple. You deliver. Been there. March to your own drum and fail and you pay the price. That’s life. On occasion been there too.

    Arm round the shoulder? Not Bowyers day job. The boss gets to set the standards & disciplines. In a clubhouse with no hiding place it is for Jackson, Marshall & Basey to have the ear of the players and control daily issues. People  marching to their drum risks divisions. If you consistently cost even a semi pro his win, draw, position bonus the manager will be the least of your problems.

    I doubt there is anything Bowyer has said that will not have been commented on by half the clubhouse. People whispering in corners is death to any clubhouse.  Indeed they may be his intended audience. In this industry your performance does not get more public. Embarras me in public at your own risk.

    This is not about errors of execution it is about failures of professional commitment. Harsh? Unfair? Possibly but Bowyer has spent a working life time in this environment.

    I am entirely comfortable Bowyer will let Maddison play however he wishes PROVIDED HE COMPETES and delivers and that decision sits entirely with Maddison.
    Specifically with regard to character references. It only takes a couple of phone calls (and the likes of Gallen will be very well connected in that regard) plus a check on various forums, articles and quotes by previous Managers or a listen to a few interviews with Maddison - this one, for example, when he signed for Hull:

    Interviewer - "Is it nice to be little bit closer to home?"
    Maddison - "Yeh definitely. I think the north is a friendlier place and the people are nicer as well"

    It's no secret that Maddison wanted to leave Peterborough for a Club up north. And that he wanted to play in the Championship. He had that opportunity to do so with Hull and specifically under Grant McCann who knew what Maddison was capable of from their time together at Peterborough. And yet during his time at Hull he only started 4 games out of 9 up until lockdown. 

    McCann said himself of Maddison “Yes he is (enigmatic and phlegmatic),” “He’s a good player, Marcus, when he’s on his game and he’s a threat, of course."

    We do not have the luxury of signing players who will play well when they are on their game. Because when Maddison is not on his game he offers very little else so much so that he becomes a liability to the team. And that is why no other club came in for him - because the risk isn't worth the reward. Which is what makes it puzzling that we signed him and even more so now that there is a cap in place.


  • Fosu left after his relationship broke down with Lee Bowyer. I couldn't have been the only person who thought he had talent but had lost his way.  

    Maddison at 27 should be at his peak and tearing up League 1.

    The omens don't look good after Bowyers words after MM short Bizarre cameo in his last match.

    Personally gutted as he is the best striker of a football in our squad.


    Fosu is typical of the sort of player Bowyer struggles with. 
    Oztumer 
    Williams 
    Maddison 
    All on that list. 
    Fosu plays best on the left side of a three. When he does not play there I think he is poor. Not a winger, not a striker. Robinson should always be his manager as any manager that does not play a three up front is going to struggle with Fosu. 
    I don’t think Williams should be on that list and has recently shown the desire to track back. I think it is his lack of goals and assists that count against him. He is now a good sub impact player for me, and I have a lot of respect for any player that can join the fray and immediately start performing. That is not easy.

    This thread is about Maddison though. Could you even in your wildest dreams imagine him making the challenge on our goal line that Millar made Tuesday? Millar has that winning mentality on top of his talent. 
    We should all struggle with a player that does not give 100% for every minute he is on the pitch, and to do that you must also perform in training.
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