Attention: Please take a moment to consider our terms and conditions before posting.

Additional Rate Stamp Duty - Advice Needed

edited October 10 in Not Sports Related
I do need to speak to a tax advisor really but always found everyone here really helpful in the past so thought I would ask the question.

I purchased my first residential property in 2017.
In 2019 I moved back to my in-laws and let the property out.
I am now looking to purchase another property.

As I understand it, additional rate tax is due when;
- You are buying an investment property or second home
- You are not replacing your current main residence

I also understand for Tax Purposes, your main residence is the residence in which you spend the majority of your time. Also, the tax is refundable if you replace your main property within 3 years (which I do not intend to do, more properties if anything)

- I do not own my main residence as I live with in-laws
- I am not buying a second home, as I do not currently own a first home, only a property that is let out

Based on some very rough figures, if the additional rate was due, it would work out cheaper for me to sell the rental, buy my new home and then buy the rental back. A ridiculous exercise but considering our home would be worth significantly more than the rental, the tax bill on it would be 3x more.

I'm seeing mixed things online, anyone got any suggestions? 


Comments

  • Move into your rental for 6 months, as your main residence?


  • Oggy Red said:
    Move into your rental for 6 months, as your main residence?


    This is feasible but looked on very suspiciously by HMRC. 
  • It's fairly simple I believe, if you end up owning two properties you will pay the extra stamp on the most recent one you bought.
  • edited October 10
    MattDee said:
    I do need to speak to a tax advisor really but always found everyone here really helpful in the past so thought I would ask the question.

    I purchased my first residential property in 2017.
    In 2019 I moved back to my in-laws and let the property out.
    I am now looking to purchase another property.

    As I understand it, additional rate tax is due when;
    - You are buying an investment property or second home
    - You are not replacing your current main residence

    I also understand for Tax Purposes, your main residence is the residence in which you spend the majority of your time. Also, the tax is refundable if you replace your main property within 3 years (which I do not intend to do, more properties if anything)

    - I do not own my main residence as I live with in-laws
    - I am not buying a second home, as I do not currently own a first home, only a property that is let out

    Based on some very rough figures, if the additional rate was due, it would work out cheaper for me to sell the rental, buy my new home and then buy the rental back. A ridiculous exercise but considering our home would be worth significantly more than the rental, the tax bill on it would be 3x more.

    I'm seeing mixed things online, anyone got any suggestions? 


    I assume you are getting a mortgage for your new property. It is possible to get a joint mortgage but only 1 of you go on the deeds (your partner). I have done this for a client in very similar circumstances to yours. However, there are very few lenders who allow 2 borrowers / I owner so you may want to speak to your ITK mortgage broker to assist you 😉.

    EDIT. I'm assuming the new property is residential for you to live in, not a BTL. 

    On another note, there are very few lenders who will let a non residential owner buy a BTL, so if you are thinking of building up a property portfolio then be aware that getting a BTL mortgage will be hard if you don't own your own home.
  • edited October 10
    MattDee said:
    I do need to speak to a tax advisor really but always found everyone here really helpful in the past so thought I would ask the question.

    I purchased my first residential property in 2017.
    In 2019 I moved back to my in-laws and let the property out.
    I am now looking to purchase another property.

    As I understand it, additional rate tax is due when;
    - You are buying an investment property or second home
    - You are not replacing your current main residence

    I also understand for Tax Purposes, your main residence is the residence in which you spend the majority of your time. Also, the tax is refundable if you replace your main property within 3 years (which I do not intend to do, more properties if anything)

    - I do not own my main residence as I live with in-laws
    - I am not buying a second home, as I do not currently own a first home, only a property that is let out

    Based on some very rough figures, if the additional rate was due, it would work out cheaper for me to sell the rental, buy my new home and then buy the rental back. A ridiculous exercise but considering our home would be worth significantly more than the rental, the tax bill on it would be 3x more.

    I'm seeing mixed things online, anyone got any suggestions? 


    I assume you are getting a mortgage for your new property. It is possible to get a joint mortgage but only 1 of you go on the deeds (your partner). I have done this for a client in very similar circumstances to yours. There are very few lenders who allow 2 borrowers / I owner......you may want to speak to your ITK mortgage broker to assist you 😉.
    How much do you charge? ;)
  • razil said:
    It's fairly simple I believe, if you end up owning two properties you will pay the extra stamp on the most recent one you bought.
    As Razil says you do basically own a first home but you choose to let it out.
  • What are you doing with the new property you're buying?

    If you're going to live in it then it will be your main residence.

    If it's just property number 2 in your burgeoning buy to let property portfolio, well, then you pay the extra tax don't you? 

    Maybe I've misunderstood the question.
  • Your new purchase will attract the extra 3%, regardless as to whether you are going to live in it or for it to be a BTL. It's a second property, you already own a property.

    Regarding your last point of selling rental then buying it back, In theory yes, but buying it back will attract the 3% and selling it could attract CGT. Of course if you are saying you'll sell it to a friend/family member etc just to avoid the tax, they will likely pay the 3% on purchasing it from you (unless they don't own a property already) so I guess you'd be funding the 3% twice anyway.

    I'm all for saving money, and I don't know the numbers involved, but it seems a lot of hassle in the likely scheme of things.

    As you are talking about more properties in the future, you need tax advice, i'd suggest if you are building a portfolio you are likely better doing so in a Ltd company, but does depend on your own personal circumstances.
  • Off_it said:
    What are you doing with the new property you're buying?

    If you're going to live in it then it will be your main residence.

    If it's just property number 2 in your burgeoning buy to let property portfolio, well, then you pay the extra tax don't you? 

    Maybe I've misunderstood the question.
    He will still pay the extra stamp duty whether its his residential property or a BTL. It's not the type of property you have but the number.

    As I said in my previous post, there are ways of buying a property & not being the legal owner (ie, not going on the deeds)
  • It’s a brave person who takes on a mortgage for a property without having any legal right to the equity. You would need to be very sure of the future of any relationship with the person you gave the property right to while retaining the liability for the mortgage.

    Unfortunately the fact otters here doesn’t help with the more common route which is to ensure that the first property is considered your principal and main residence, then if I remember correctly you have 3 years to dispose of that first property and the PPR reliefs including those on capital gains being exempt would apply. You would also get to claim back any additional stamp duty paid on the acquisition of your second property. 

    Looking to rely on the first not being your PPR and therefore the second purchase not attracting additional rate stamp duty may seem possible given the fairly typical vagueness of the HMRC guidance on the subject and I haven’t read the legislation yet on this but I would be very surprised if that loophole existed. 
  • Sponsored links:


  • Thanks for all the comments, great to get different opinion and angles as always.

    We are both on the deeds of the rented property so only putting one of us on the deeds of the purchase wouldn't benefit us as we are both in the same circumstance.
    Based on all the information ive now read, I believe we will incur the additional charge on our new home.

    I'm therefor thinking of purchasing a lower value doer-upper. Add some value and in short-mid term sell up for another residential later on. Not expecting the next place to be the forever home anyway.
  • MattDee said:
    Thanks for all the comments, great to get different opinion and angles as always.

    We are both on the deeds of the rented property so only putting one of us on the deeds of the purchase wouldn't benefit us as we are both in the same circumstance.
    Based on all the information ive now read, I believe we will incur the additional charge on our new home.

    I'm therefor thinking of purchasing a lower value doer-upper. Add some value and in short-mid term sell up for another residential later on. Not expecting the next place to be the forever home anyway.
    Might as well just sell the rented property. Stick the money in a unit trust /share portfolio and over 20 years will probably do better than property. Add in the fact you have CGT & income tax to pay that in equities can be managed so much better & that you are also currently "all in" in property. 
  • Just pay your taxes due. It's not difficult.

    The exchequer needs every drop of income it can get. Additional rate stamp duty seems quite reasonable to me and added to your mortgage will actually only cost you a few pounds a month more.
  • MattDee said:
    Thanks for all the comments, great to get different opinion and angles as always.

    We are both on the deeds of the rented property so only putting one of us on the deeds of the purchase wouldn't benefit us as we are both in the same circumstance.
    Based on all the information ive now read, I believe we will incur the additional charge on our new home.

    I'm therefor thinking of purchasing a lower value doer-upper. Add some value and in short-mid term sell up for another residential later on. Not expecting the next place to be the forever home anyway.
    Might as well just sell the rented property. Stick the money in a unit trust /share portfolio and over 20 years will probably do better than property. Add in the fact you have CGT & income tax to pay that in equities can be managed so much better & that you are also currently "all in" in property. 

    This is interesting advice (I have PM'ed you separately about mortgages on 2 properties I rent out). I would be looking to sell within 5 years, potentially to buy or long-term rent overseas. Unfortunately I have already had to pay the additional  stamp duty and will have to pay CGT
  • You really need to see an advisor, now you've two properties and buying more, I don't think you are doing so in the most cost efficient way.
  • Up until covid struck, I had been considering BTL as a way of generating some relatively passive income as I look to reduce my working hours over the next year or two, but as the year has passed I have reverted to agreeing with Golfie's advice. Everything just now seems stacked against BTL:
    moratorium on evictions
    increasing unemployment
    house prices falling back post stamp duty holiday
    landlords exiting the market next year once they can get non-paying tenants out, further depressing the market
    the government's 95% mortgage scheme
    more scope for development of commercial property as remote working frees up office and retail space in town/city centres

    Seem to be plenty of reasonably solid shares offering a decent dividend (relative to the 0.2% you might get on a deposit account) and if you choose a poor one it is much easier to exit that investment than wind down a tenancy and sell a house. 

    I might be totally wrong and will keep it under review into next year but for the moment it's off the list. That said, one of my friends is just buying her first BTL up north, highly leveraged. She is braver than me!
  • edited October 11
    IdleHans said:
    Up until covid struck, I had been considering BTL as a way of generating some relatively passive income as I look to reduce my working hours over the next year or two, but as the year has passed I have reverted to agreeing with Golfie's advice. Everything just now seems stacked against BTL:
    moratorium on evictions
    increasing unemployment
    house prices falling back post stamp duty holiday
    landlords exiting the market next year once they can get non-paying tenants out, further depressing the market
    the government's 95% mortgage scheme
    more scope for development of commercial property as remote working frees up office and retail space in town/city centres

    Seem to be plenty of reasonably solid shares offering a decent dividend (relative to the 0.2% you might get on a deposit account) and if you choose a poor one it is much easier to exit that investment than wind down a tenancy and sell a house. 

    I might be totally wrong and will keep it under review into next year but for the moment it's off the list. That said, one of my friends is just buying her first BTL up north, highly leveraged. She is braver than me!
    It's like any investment, don't have too many eggs in one basket. I wouldn't advocate a BTL unless it's less than 20/25% of your overall investment portfolio.

    Added to that, respectfully, the mistake people make in BTL is highlighted in your post; 'passive income'. It isn't, theres a lot of work and many pitfalls to BTL.

    That said, regarding your friend, she may be highly leveraging, but at no doubt a ridiculously low interest rate. Thats the thing right now with BTL. If you had say £100k to invest, you are best off leveraging and buying 3/4 than one outright or mostly outright, if you can make a 6-7% Gross return then leverage away at sub 2%. Why wouldn't you? The numbers look much better.
  • You make sound points. 
    I did use the phrase 'relatively passive' advisedly. My plan would be to use a managing agent. I realise this is more expensive, but there's no way im getting involved in tiny maintenance jobs from 200 miles away.
    Leveraging would also be the way to do it to make your capital go further, I agree completely with that. She is doing BTL via a limited company using a combination of 75% mortgage at around 3% then borrowing the balance from other private individuals at 6%. It's her strategy but not what I would do, given she has funds to pay the deposit herself very easily and it makes little sense to me not to do that.
    Her numbers stack up with some contingencies built in, but I prefer to lend her money than follow her example in this instance. Her ROI will be big doing it that way, but the absolute returns reduced.
      

  • Thats a tough model to make work on pure BTL. I've seen it done successfully in a BRR (Buy Refurbish Refinance) scenario but never pure BTL. That said she's done well to get investors at 6%, you're usually looking at double digit or near as unless secured against the property.

    So a marginal rate of 3.75% on 100% i'd say is tight, but do-able.  She probably needs 5/6 properties though for comfort.

    If she has the money herself for the 25% I can only assume she feels she can make more than 6% on that otherwise seems a little backwards to me.
  • edited October 13
    I have to say since we rented out our existing property its been very good for us. I'm not worried about CGT as I consider any house price increases an added benefit and the cash flow on our place is tidy.
    Even though its round the corner I am using a managing agent. I've not yet lifted a finger although I do plan to do the carpet if the current tenant ever leaves.

    I understand the Macro outlook on BTL is somewhat bleak however we seem to be making it work quite well with ours.

    I will likely look into other investments in the near future as within the next 18 months I will 'likely' have a large sum of crypto profits that I need to diversify but I will certainly look to increase my property portfolio once I have my own residential home again. 
    As @Rob7Lee mentioned, Id be making use of 75%LTV products

  • Sponsored links:


  • MattDee said:
    I have to say since we rented out our existing property its been very good for us. I'm not worried about CGT as I consider any house price increases an added benefit and the cash flow on our place is tidy.
    Even though its round the corner I am using a managing agent. I've not yet lifted a finger although I do plan to do the carpet if the current tenant ever leaves.

    I understand the Macro outlook on BTL is somewhat bleak however we seem to be making it work quite well with ours.

    I will likely look into other investments in the near future as within the next 18 months I will 'likely' have a large sum of crypto profits that I need to diversify but I will certainly look to increase my property portfolio once I have my own residential home again. 
    As @Rob7Lee mentioned, Id be making use of 75%LTV products

    Also bear in mind not only CGT but income tax on the rental payments and extra stamp duty when buying another property, even your own residential property will incur this now seeing as you already have 1 property you own.
  • Buying BTL properties a long way from you can be tricky. Unless you have a v good Managing Agent, it’s best to be fairly hands on. Problem tenants can wipe out months of profits. 
    A successful investor I dealt with years ago had the strategy of 1/3 property, 1/3 stocks/investments, 1/3 liquid assets/cash. It’s a good strategy when a bit older. 
  • MattDee said:
    I have to say since we rented out our existing property its been very good for us. I'm not worried about CGT as I consider any house price increases an added benefit and the cash flow on our place is tidy.
    Even though its round the corner I am using a managing agent. I've not yet lifted a finger although I do plan to do the carpet if the current tenant ever leaves.

    I understand the Macro outlook on BTL is somewhat bleak however we seem to be making it work quite well with ours.

    I will likely look into other investments in the near future as within the next 18 months I will 'likely' have a large sum of crypto profits that I need to diversify but I will certainly look to increase my property portfolio once I have my own residential home again. 
    As @Rob7Lee mentioned, Id be making use of 75%LTV products

    Also bear in mind not only CGT but income tax on the rental payments and extra stamp duty when buying another property, even your own residential property will incur this now seeing as you already have 1 property you own.
    Yeah mate, that’s why I made the thread to weigh up the cost of additional stamp, if it’s applicable. Income tax already considered
  • MattDee said:
    I have to say since we rented out our existing property its been very good for us. I'm not worried about CGT as I consider any house price increases an added benefit and the cash flow on our place is tidy.
    Even though its round the corner I am using a managing agent. I've not yet lifted a finger although I do plan to do the carpet if the current tenant ever leaves.

    I understand the Macro outlook on BTL is somewhat bleak however we seem to be making it work quite well with ours.

    I will likely look into other investments in the near future as within the next 18 months I will 'likely' have a large sum of crypto profits that I need to diversify but I will certainly look to increase my property portfolio once I have my own residential home again. 
    As @Rob7Lee mentioned, Id be making use of 75%LTV products

    If you get good tenants it can be very good. My wife's friend had the same tenant for nearly 20 years, they were perfect and even did a lot of maintenance to the place (inc new bathroom & Kitchen!) - when she decided to sell they bought it for a reduced price.

    But i've also known people with nightmare tenants, no rent for over a year and the place trashed, cost them probably £20k.

    With the way the job market is heading non paying tenants is on the increase.
Sign In or Register to comment.

Roland Out Forever!