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Hart and Butland

killerandflashkillerandflash
in Other Football and Sports
Not long ago Joe Hart (still only 33) was the clear England No 1, while Jack Butland (still only 27) was his nearest challenger

Now Hart is without a club after being released by Burnley, while Butland is getting pelters from the Stoke fans after another terrible performance. Baffling how both have slumped so far.

Comments

  • Athletico CharltonAthletico Charlton
    It is odd, quite a few keepers seem to go from hero to zero quickly.  De Gea at United doing similar and likes of Paul Robinson and the lad who was at loan to us all those years ago and let the soft goal in for England (name escapes me) were similar.
  • Covered_End_LadCovered_End_Lad
    Athletico Charlton said:
    It is odd, quite a few keepers seem to go from hero to zero quickly.  De Gea at United doing similar and likes of Paul Robinson and the lad who was at loan to us all those years ago and let the soft goal in for England (name escapes me) were similar.
    Carson?
  • JoshAddickJoshAddick
    Saw something saying Shrewsbury are prepared to give Joe Hart a chance lol
  • cantersaddickcantersaddick
    Athletico Charlton said:
    It is odd, quite a few keepers seem to go from hero to zero quickly.  De Gea at United doing similar and likes of Paul Robinson and the lad who was at loan to us all those years ago and let the soft goal in for England (name escapes me) were similar.
    Lloris was getting pelted earlier in the season too. Lots of spurs fans were glad that he got injured as it meant he wasnt playing.
  • JoshrewCAFCJoshrewCAFC
    I haven't seen many of Butlands performances this season but if Stoke's first 3 or 4 games of the season are anything to go by, he's absolutely atrocious these days. Baffling... 
  • killerandflashkillerandflash
    Ben Foster is one of the few English keepers who has managed to maintain a long career in the PL. So many other seem to slump, whether due to injury or form

  • MrOneLungMrOneLung
    Did you not see his game on Sunday ? 
  • Ormiston_AddickOrmiston_Addick
    The other one to remember is Chris Kirkland, was supposed to be the next long-term England keeper but totally lost his way.

    I know he had mental health issues towards the end of his playing days but before that I think the issue was more loss of confidence.
  • North Lower NeilNorth Lower Neil
    Ormiston_Addick said:
    The other one to remember is Chris Kirkland, was supposed to be the next long-term England keeper but totally lost his way.

    I know he had mental health issues towards the end of his playing days but before that I think the issue was more loss of confidence.
    Injuries in his case too I think.
  • cafcdave123cafcdave123
    JoshAddick said:
    Saw something saying Shrewsbury are prepared to give Joe Hart a chance lol
    Celtic are speaking to him in case they don’t get Fraser Forster back from Southampton 
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  • SageSage
    Luckily, I can’t see any of these being a problem for Nick Pope. A young keeper who has great potential still and could play at Premier League and International level for years to come. 
  • Cafc43v3rCafc43v3r
    Sage said:
    Luckily, I can’t see any of these being a problem for Nick Pope. A young keeper who has great potential still and could play at Premier League and International level for years to come. 
    Remember the pelters Pep got for ditching Hart?  No one saw his demise coming, certainly not as quickly as it did.

    Fraser Forster also went from being an England player to 3rd choice at Southampton rather quickly.

    Craig Gordon went from a near 10 million pound goal keeper to not having a club for 2 years.  Then back to being quite good.

    Funny things goal keepers. 
  • Todds_right_hookTodds_right_hook
    If wonder if it’s attitude/mental with heart. Made lots of money and can’t be bothered anymore?
  • ColinTatColinTat
    Ormiston_Addick said:
    The other one to remember is Chris Kirkland, was supposed to be the next long-term England keeper but totally lost his way.

    I know he had mental health issues towards the end of his playing days but before that I think the issue was more loss of confidence.
      Always thought Kirkland was excellent, but he had serious back problems even at Liverpool.  It was impressive he played that many games for Wigan.
  • EricBanternaEricBanterna
    The modern day keeper is almost deployed as a sweeper with good feet. 

    I think it would be fair to suggest English goalkeepers are not blessed with this attribute. 

    Also English goalkeepers, if playing for England or on the fringes are always in the public eye and can be easily targeted. 
  • Addick AddictAddick Addict
    One word - confidence. 

    The lack of it impacts most at both ends of the pitch. Really good keepers and strikers are instinctive. When they stop playing on instinct they overthink things. 

    The only difference is that strikers can redeem themselves for those misses. It doesn't matter how many brilliant saves keepers make they will always be blamed for letting in that soft goal.

    Which is why we should be grateful that we have Phillips and why I hope that if and when he makes a couple of horrendous mistakes, as he will undoubtedly do, we don't get on his back because then the confidence will disappear.

    On that subject, who remembers when Pope was being called all the names under the sun? And look at him now - still makes the odd error as he did against City but, that game apart, Burnley have conceded just two goals in their last seven matches. And could end up being England's number one. 
  • killerandflashkillerandflash
    Addick Addict said:
    One word - confidence. 

    The lack of it impacts most at both ends of the pitch. Really good keepers and strikers are instinctive. When they stop playing on instinct they overthink things. 

    The only difference is that strikers can redeem themselves for those misses. It doesn't matter how many brilliant saves keepers make they will always be blamed for letting in that soft goal.

    Which is why we should be grateful that we have Phillips and why I hope that if and when he makes a couple of horrendous mistakes, as he will undoubtedly do, we don't get on his back because then the confidence will disappear.

    On that subject, who remembers when Pope was being called all the names under the sun? And look at him now - still makes the odd error as he did against City but, that game apart, Burnley have conceded just two goals in their last seven matches. And could end up being England's number one. 
    The keepers in the 70s and 80s never seemed to have these confidence crises. Maybe there's more pressure nowadays, but back then clubs had a main keeper and he would play every game, it was very unusual for a keeper to be dropped, and they got injured far less often as well



  • Six-a-bag-of-nutsSix-a-bag-of-nuts
    killerandflash said:
    Not long ago Joe Hart (still only 33) was the clear England No 1, while Jack Butland (still only 27) was his nearest challenger

    Now Hart is without a club after being released by Burnley, while Butland is getting pelters from the Stoke fans after another terrible performance. Baffling how both have slumped so far.
    Maybe they've been Englandised  ;)
  • Addick AddictAddick Addict
    killerandflash said:
    Addick Addict said:
    One word - confidence. 

    The lack of it impacts most at both ends of the pitch. Really good keepers and strikers are instinctive. When they stop playing on instinct they overthink things. 

    The only difference is that strikers can redeem themselves for those misses. It doesn't matter how many brilliant saves keepers make they will always be blamed for letting in that soft goal.

    Which is why we should be grateful that we have Phillips and why I hope that if and when he makes a couple of horrendous mistakes, as he will undoubtedly do, we don't get on his back because then the confidence will disappear.

    On that subject, who remembers when Pope was being called all the names under the sun? And look at him now - still makes the odd error as he did against City but, that game apart, Burnley have conceded just two goals in their last seven matches. And could end up being England's number one. 
    The keepers in the 70s and 80s never seemed to have these confidence crises. Maybe there's more pressure nowadays, but back then clubs had a main keeper and he would play every game, it was very unusual for a keeper to be dropped, and they got injured far less often as well



    I think that was and very much the issue. I would liken it to a batsman that is told he is in the side for the season as opposed to one that is told that they are getting a couple of games and the knowledge that if they do fail they are dropped.

    I'm sure that had the likes of Hick and Ramprakash been told they were fixtures in the side their Test careers would have been far more successful.
  • GarrymanilowGarrymanilow
    Have to say, I was really impressed by Butland last night. Being beaten by a ball across your goal from the byline is impressive, not a lot of keepers could do that. But to then not rest on it, but go on to top the first one by clawing a gentle cross behind you against your own crossbar for another goal, that takes a real unique talent. I don't think there's another keeper quite like him at the moment.
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  • LenGloverLenGlover
    Athletico Charlton said:
    It is odd, quite a few keepers seem to go from hero to zero quickly.  De Gea at United doing similar and likes of Paul Robinson and the lad who was at loan to us all those years ago and let the soft goal in for England (name escapes me) were similar.
    Carson
  • Addick AddictAddick Addict
    Athletico Charlton said:
    It is odd, quite a few keepers seem to go from hero to zero quickly.  De Gea at United doing similar and likes of Paul Robinson and the lad who was at loan to us all those years ago and let the soft goal in for England (name escapes me) were similar.
    That is the very point - De Gea has been making mistakes but his mistakes will, generally speaking, have far more influence on a game than a full back's failure to clear a ball.

    And if we think that De Gea has lost the plot then consider the fact that he has let in 2 goals in his last 850 minutes  for United. But we will still remember him for that mistake or two rather than the hundreds of saves he has made.


  • LincsaddickLincsaddick
    JoshAddick said:
    Saw something saying Shrewsbury are prepared to give Joe Hart a chance lol
    Hart was born in  Shrewsbury and started his career with the Shrews
  • LincsaddickLincsaddick
    Nowadays keepers are selected on their passing and dribbling ability as much, if not more than for their 'stopping' skills
  • ricky_ottoricky_otto
    killerandflash said:
    Addick Addict said:
    One word - confidence. 

    The lack of it impacts most at both ends of the pitch. Really good keepers and strikers are instinctive. When they stop playing on instinct they overthink things. 

    The only difference is that strikers can redeem themselves for those misses. It doesn't matter how many brilliant saves keepers make they will always be blamed for letting in that soft goal.

    Which is why we should be grateful that we have Phillips and why I hope that if and when he makes a couple of horrendous mistakes, as he will undoubtedly do, we don't get on his back because then the confidence will disappear.

    On that subject, who remembers when Pope was being called all the names under the sun? And look at him now - still makes the odd error as he did against City but, that game apart, Burnley have conceded just two goals in their last seven matches. And could end up being England's number one. 
    The keepers in the 70s and 80s never seemed to have these confidence crises. Maybe there's more pressure nowadays, but back then clubs had a main keeper and he would play every game, it was very unusual for a keeper to be dropped, and they got injured far less often as well



    Definitely more pressure now. They have to be more than just goalkeepers, they need to be able to play a bit as well.
  • cafcdave123cafcdave123
    Cafc43v3r said:
    Sage said:
    Luckily, I can’t see any of these being a problem for Nick Pope. A young keeper who has great potential still and could play at Premier League and International level for years to come. 
    Remember the pelters Pep got for ditching Hart?  No one saw his demise coming, certainly not as quickly as it did.

    Fraser Forster also went from being an England player to 3rd choice at Southampton rather quickly.

    Craig Gordon went from a near 10 million pound goal keeper to not having a club for 2 years.  Then back to being quite good.

    Funny things goal keepers. 
    Gordon was all but retired with a shoulder injury. his form never dipped , he got injured and his contract expired while he was injured 
  • iaitchiaitch
    He's just moved from Celtic to Hearts.
  • RothkoRothko
    On Hart, I don't think he got better as he got older, and he went round like a pumped up nutter for a couple of years, his behaviour at Euro 2012 and 2016 was weird, he was too interested in being a lad and not knuckling down. 

    As for Butland, I think the injury finished him, and he's never getting back to the level he was at. 

    Watch Ederson and Allison on how to be a good keeper, amazing shot stoppers when it matters, extraordinary levels of concentration, and calm, just oozing presence. Look at the English keepers mentioned (and Dean Henderson who I'm not convinced by) and none of them are close to those two.
  • Cafc43v3rCafc43v3r
    cafcdave123 said:
    Cafc43v3r said:
    Sage said:
    Luckily, I can’t see any of these being a problem for Nick Pope. A young keeper who has great potential still and could play at Premier League and International level for years to come. 
    Remember the pelters Pep got for ditching Hart?  No one saw his demise coming, certainly not as quickly as it did.

    Fraser Forster also went from being an England player to 3rd choice at Southampton rather quickly.

    Craig Gordon went from a near 10 million pound goal keeper to not having a club for 2 years.  Then back to being quite good.

    Funny things goal keepers. 
    Gordon was all but retired with a shoulder injury. his form never dipped , he got injured and his contract expired while he was injured 
    His form at Sunderland after they signed him was shocking. 

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