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Furlough/Annual Leave question

Any HR/employment law bods on here?

can an employee take annual leave from furloughed staff (pro rata, 2 x days per month) without permission or consultation, although they are paying that staff member full pay instead of the 80% for those days? 
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Comments

  • edited May 21
    DA9 said:
    Any HR/employment law bods on here?

    can an employee take annual leave from furloughed staff (pro rata, 2 x days per month) without permission or consultation, although they are paying that staff member full pay instead of the 80% for those days? 
    Deleted as duff info
  • WSSWSS
    edited May 21
    DA9 said:
    Any HR/employment law bods on here?

    can an employee take annual leave from furloughed staff (pro rata, 2 x days per month) without permission or consultation, although they are paying that staff member full pay instead of the 80% for those days? 
    No they can't. 

    In fact it is fraudulent. Essentially they are then only paying that employee 20% (with HMRC paying 80%) of that days annual leave.

    A friends boss asked them to take annual leave before furloughing them so they didn't have loads later in the year. That's acceptable because they didn't start furloughing until the week after but when furloughed you shouldn't be taking annual leave. 
    @bobmunro will be better placed to answer than me but I'm almost certain you are allowed to take holiday whilst furloughed if your company agrees. They should be paid "in full" for that of course.

    Edit, and that's what ACAS says: https://www.acas.org.uk/coronavirus/using-holiday
  • ^^^^ what he said.
  • WSS said:
    DA9 said:
    Any HR/employment law bods on here?

    can an employee take annual leave from furloughed staff (pro rata, 2 x days per month) without permission or consultation, although they are paying that staff member full pay instead of the 80% for those days? 
    No they can't. 

    In fact it is fraudulent. Essentially they are then only paying that employee 20% (with HMRC paying 80%) of that days annual leave.

    A friends boss asked them to take annual leave before furloughing them so they didn't have loads later in the year. That's acceptable because they didn't start furloughing until the week after but when furloughed you shouldn't be taking annual leave. 
    @bobmunro will be better placed to answer than me but I'm almost certain you are allowed to take holiday whilst furloughed if your company agrees. They should be paid "in full" for that of course.

    Edit, and that's what ACAS says: https://www.acas.org.uk/coronavirus/using-holiday
    I believe that's correct

    I can't imagine too many furloughed employees wanting to take annual leave though!
  • WSS said:
    DA9 said:
    Any HR/employment law bods on here?

    can an employee take annual leave from furloughed staff (pro rata, 2 x days per month) without permission or consultation, although they are paying that staff member full pay instead of the 80% for those days? 
    No they can't. 

    In fact it is fraudulent. Essentially they are then only paying that employee 20% (with HMRC paying 80%) of that days annual leave.

    A friends boss asked them to take annual leave before furloughing them so they didn't have loads later in the year. That's acceptable because they didn't start furloughing until the week after but when furloughed you shouldn't be taking annual leave. 
    @bobmunro will be better placed to answer than me but I'm almost certain you are allowed to take holiday whilst furloughed if your company agrees. They should be paid "in full" for that of course.

    Edit, and that's what ACAS says: https://www.acas.org.uk/coronavirus/using-holiday
    Ah apologies, looks like I was wrong. I knew it would be ok for annual leave during furlough in usual terms. Thought it would be different with HMRC covering 80%. 


    I still think it's good practice for an employer to consult because shieding, self-isolating etc could affect annual leave being taken. 
  • @WSS is correct - annual leave can be allocated/taken during furlough with the statutory notice periods given by the employer when allocating still applying - double the notice for the length of holiday e.g. minimum 2 weeks' notice to allocate one week's holiday.

    Annual leave continues to accrue during furlough.
  • WSS said:
    DA9 said:
    Any HR/employment law bods on here?

    can an employee take annual leave from furloughed staff (pro rata, 2 x days per month) without permission or consultation, although they are paying that staff member full pay instead of the 80% for those days? 
    No they can't. 

    In fact it is fraudulent. Essentially they are then only paying that employee 20% (with HMRC paying 80%) of that days annual leave.

    A friends boss asked them to take annual leave before furloughing them so they didn't have loads later in the year. That's acceptable because they didn't start furloughing until the week after but when furloughed you shouldn't be taking annual leave. 
    @bobmunro will be better placed to answer than me but I'm almost certain you are allowed to take holiday whilst furloughed if your company agrees. They should be paid "in full" for that of course.

    Edit, and that's what ACAS says: https://www.acas.org.uk/coronavirus/using-holiday
    I believe that's correct

    I can't imagine too many furloughed employees wanting to take annual leave though!
    But entirely reasonable for the employer to allocate it on the basis that once this madness ends their staff haven't still got 5 weeks' holiday to take in the remainder of the holiday year.

  • bobmunro said:
    WSS said:
    DA9 said:
    Any HR/employment law bods on here?

    can an employee take annual leave from furloughed staff (pro rata, 2 x days per month) without permission or consultation, although they are paying that staff member full pay instead of the 80% for those days? 
    No they can't. 

    In fact it is fraudulent. Essentially they are then only paying that employee 20% (with HMRC paying 80%) of that days annual leave.

    A friends boss asked them to take annual leave before furloughing them so they didn't have loads later in the year. That's acceptable because they didn't start furloughing until the week after but when furloughed you shouldn't be taking annual leave. 
    @bobmunro will be better placed to answer than me but I'm almost certain you are allowed to take holiday whilst furloughed if your company agrees. They should be paid "in full" for that of course.

    Edit, and that's what ACAS says: https://www.acas.org.uk/coronavirus/using-holiday
    I believe that's correct

    I can't imagine too many furloughed employees wanting to take annual leave though!
    But entirely reasonable for the employer to allocate it on the basis that once this madness ends their staff haven't still got 5 weeks' holiday to take in the remainder of the holiday year.

    You can roll annual leave over as well can't you at the moment? For up to two years?
  • WSS said:
    bobmunro said:
    WSS said:
    DA9 said:
    Any HR/employment law bods on here?

    can an employee take annual leave from furloughed staff (pro rata, 2 x days per month) without permission or consultation, although they are paying that staff member full pay instead of the 80% for those days? 
    No they can't. 

    In fact it is fraudulent. Essentially they are then only paying that employee 20% (with HMRC paying 80%) of that days annual leave.

    A friends boss asked them to take annual leave before furloughing them so they didn't have loads later in the year. That's acceptable because they didn't start furloughing until the week after but when furloughed you shouldn't be taking annual leave. 
    @bobmunro will be better placed to answer than me but I'm almost certain you are allowed to take holiday whilst furloughed if your company agrees. They should be paid "in full" for that of course.

    Edit, and that's what ACAS says: https://www.acas.org.uk/coronavirus/using-holiday
    I believe that's correct

    I can't imagine too many furloughed employees wanting to take annual leave though!
    But entirely reasonable for the employer to allocate it on the basis that once this madness ends their staff haven't still got 5 weeks' holiday to take in the remainder of the holiday year.

    You can roll annual leave over as well can't you at the moment? For up to two years?
    Yes, you can. My company are offering to buy it back from people too.
  • WSS said:
    bobmunro said:
    WSS said:
    DA9 said:
    Any HR/employment law bods on here?

    can an employee take annual leave from furloughed staff (pro rata, 2 x days per month) without permission or consultation, although they are paying that staff member full pay instead of the 80% for those days? 
    No they can't. 

    In fact it is fraudulent. Essentially they are then only paying that employee 20% (with HMRC paying 80%) of that days annual leave.

    A friends boss asked them to take annual leave before furloughing them so they didn't have loads later in the year. That's acceptable because they didn't start furloughing until the week after but when furloughed you shouldn't be taking annual leave. 
    @bobmunro will be better placed to answer than me but I'm almost certain you are allowed to take holiday whilst furloughed if your company agrees. They should be paid "in full" for that of course.

    Edit, and that's what ACAS says: https://www.acas.org.uk/coronavirus/using-holiday
    I believe that's correct

    I can't imagine too many furloughed employees wanting to take annual leave though!
    But entirely reasonable for the employer to allocate it on the basis that once this madness ends their staff haven't still got 5 weeks' holiday to take in the remainder of the holiday year.

    You can roll annual leave over as well can't you at the moment? For up to two years?

    This was picked up and misinterpreted by lots of people. The law states that you cannot carry forward leave - use it or lose it, and employers have a duty to ensure the leave is taken in that year.

    This was amended during the pandemic to enable employers of key workers who are by the nature of that word required to work to not allocate holiday but allow it to be carried over.

    It is the employer's decision to make, not the employees - so for example an employee cannot say 'the law says I can carry over my five weeks holiday, so I going to do that and take 10 weeks next year!'
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  • bobmunro said:
    WSS said:
    DA9 said:
    Any HR/employment law bods on here?

    can an employee take annual leave from furloughed staff (pro rata, 2 x days per month) without permission or consultation, although they are paying that staff member full pay instead of the 80% for those days? 
    No they can't. 

    In fact it is fraudulent. Essentially they are then only paying that employee 20% (with HMRC paying 80%) of that days annual leave.

    A friends boss asked them to take annual leave before furloughing them so they didn't have loads later in the year. That's acceptable because they didn't start furloughing until the week after but when furloughed you shouldn't be taking annual leave. 
    @bobmunro will be better placed to answer than me but I'm almost certain you are allowed to take holiday whilst furloughed if your company agrees. They should be paid "in full" for that of course.

    Edit, and that's what ACAS says: https://www.acas.org.uk/coronavirus/using-holiday
    I believe that's correct

    I can't imagine too many furloughed employees wanting to take annual leave though!
    But entirely reasonable for the employer to allocate it on the basis that once this madness ends their staff haven't still got 5 weeks' holiday to take in the remainder of the holiday year.

    So effectively enforcing the leave?


    @bobmunro I have to ask, as I will be asked, what are your credentials/qualifications in this area? 

    Thanks for the responses all 
  • edited May 21
    My missus works in retail and they are paying full whack. But she is having 2 days per full month she’s off taken from her annual leave entitlement. It’s common practice @DA9
  • DA9DA9
    edited May 21
    DA9 said:
    bobmunro said:
    WSS said:
    DA9 said:
    Any HR/employment law bods on here?

    can an employee take annual leave from furloughed staff (pro rata, 2 x days per month) without permission or consultation, although they are paying that staff member full pay instead of the 80% for those days? 
    No they can't. 

    In fact it is fraudulent. Essentially they are then only paying that employee 20% (with HMRC paying 80%) of that days annual leave.

    A friends boss asked them to take annual leave before furloughing them so they didn't have loads later in the year. That's acceptable because they didn't start furloughing until the week after but when furloughed you shouldn't be taking annual leave. 
    @bobmunro will be better placed to answer than me but I'm almost certain you are allowed to take holiday whilst furloughed if your company agrees. They should be paid "in full" for that of course.

    Edit, and that's what ACAS says: https://www.acas.org.uk/coronavirus/using-holiday
    I believe that's correct

    I can't imagine too many furloughed employees wanting to take annual leave though!
    But entirely reasonable for the employer to allocate it on the basis that once this madness ends their staff haven't still got 5 weeks' holiday to take in the remainder of the holiday year.

    So effectively enforcing the leave?


    @bobmunro I have to ask, as I will be asked, what are your credentials/qualifications in this area? 

    Thanks for the responses all 
    Hi DA9,

    My wife has just taken 5 x days holiday off of all her staff (over 40 people), as Bob M says it would be carnage if they all had 5 weeks holiday left to take in the latter part of the year. They all received 5 x days furlough pay and then she topped it up by 20% to make them all full holiday paid days.

    Bob Munro's credentials are impeccable, he used to be Tony Pullis's driver at Stoke City and Tony was always talking about HR matters and Bob picked it up, especially on long journeys  ;)  
    Cheers, I get why they are doing it, or rather, why they would want to do it, just wondered it it were legal/legit for them just to say it’s happening, doesn’t personally bother me as needs must and I’d rather have a job in 6 months time than not, give & take at the moment for all our, and the companies long term benefit 
  • edited May 21
    DA9 said:
    bobmunro said:
    WSS said:
    DA9 said:
    Any HR/employment law bods on here?

    can an employee take annual leave from furloughed staff (pro rata, 2 x days per month) without permission or consultation, although they are paying that staff member full pay instead of the 80% for those days? 
    No they can't. 

    In fact it is fraudulent. Essentially they are then only paying that employee 20% (with HMRC paying 80%) of that days annual leave.

    A friends boss asked them to take annual leave before furloughing them so they didn't have loads later in the year. That's acceptable because they didn't start furloughing until the week after but when furloughed you shouldn't be taking annual leave. 
    @bobmunro will be better placed to answer than me but I'm almost certain you are allowed to take holiday whilst furloughed if your company agrees. They should be paid "in full" for that of course.

    Edit, and that's what ACAS says: https://www.acas.org.uk/coronavirus/using-holiday
    I believe that's correct

    I can't imagine too many furloughed employees wanting to take annual leave though!
    But entirely reasonable for the employer to allocate it on the basis that once this madness ends their staff haven't still got 5 weeks' holiday to take in the remainder of the holiday year.

    So effectively enforcing the leave?


    @bobmunro I have to ask, as I will be asked, what are your credentials/qualifications in this area? 

    Thanks for the responses all 

    Yes effectively enforcing leave. It is always better to work together on holiday allocation, but the employer has ultimately the authority to unilaterally allocate leave, giving as I have already said the requisite notice.

    My credentials? - just guessing really!
  • bobmunro said:
    WSS said:
    bobmunro said:
    WSS said:
    DA9 said:
    Any HR/employment law bods on here?

    can an employee take annual leave from furloughed staff (pro rata, 2 x days per month) without permission or consultation, although they are paying that staff member full pay instead of the 80% for those days? 
    No they can't. 

    In fact it is fraudulent. Essentially they are then only paying that employee 20% (with HMRC paying 80%) of that days annual leave.

    A friends boss asked them to take annual leave before furloughing them so they didn't have loads later in the year. That's acceptable because they didn't start furloughing until the week after but when furloughed you shouldn't be taking annual leave. 
    @bobmunro will be better placed to answer than me but I'm almost certain you are allowed to take holiday whilst furloughed if your company agrees. They should be paid "in full" for that of course.

    Edit, and that's what ACAS says: https://www.acas.org.uk/coronavirus/using-holiday
    I believe that's correct

    I can't imagine too many furloughed employees wanting to take annual leave though!
    But entirely reasonable for the employer to allocate it on the basis that once this madness ends their staff haven't still got 5 weeks' holiday to take in the remainder of the holiday year.

    You can roll annual leave over as well can't you at the moment? For up to two years?

    This was picked up and misinterpreted by lots of people. The law states that you cannot carry forward leave - use it or lose it, and employers have a duty to ensure the leave is taken in that year.

    This was amended during the pandemic to enable employers of key workers who are by the nature of that word required to work to not allocate holiday but allow it to be carried over.

    It is the employer's decision to make, not the employees - so for example an employee cannot say 'the law says I can carry over my five weeks holiday, so I going to do that and take 10 weeks next year!'
    I’m classed as a key worker, which would probably explain why I have that option.
  • bobmunro said:
    DA9 said:
    bobmunro said:
    WSS said:
    DA9 said:
    Any HR/employment law bods on here?

    can an employee take annual leave from furloughed staff (pro rata, 2 x days per month) without permission or consultation, although they are paying that staff member full pay instead of the 80% for those days? 
    No they can't. 

    In fact it is fraudulent. Essentially they are then only paying that employee 20% (with HMRC paying 80%) of that days annual leave.

    A friends boss asked them to take annual leave before furloughing them so they didn't have loads later in the year. That's acceptable because they didn't start furloughing until the week after but when furloughed you shouldn't be taking annual leave. 
    @bobmunro will be better placed to answer than me but I'm almost certain you are allowed to take holiday whilst furloughed if your company agrees. They should be paid "in full" for that of course.

    Edit, and that's what ACAS says: https://www.acas.org.uk/coronavirus/using-holiday
    I believe that's correct

    I can't imagine too many furloughed employees wanting to take annual leave though!
    But entirely reasonable for the employer to allocate it on the basis that once this madness ends their staff haven't still got 5 weeks' holiday to take in the remainder of the holiday year.

    So effectively enforcing the leave?


    @bobmunro I have to ask, as I will be asked, what are your credentials/qualifications in this area? 

    Thanks for the responses all 

    Yes effectively enforcing leave. It is always better to work together on holiday allocation, but the employer has ultimately the authority to unilaterally allocate leave, giving as I have already said the requisite notice.

    My credentials? - just guessing really!
    I’m pretty certain it’s not just guess work, thanks bob, appreciated 
  • bobmunro said:
    DA9 said:
    bobmunro said:
    WSS said:
    DA9 said:
    Any HR/employment law bods on here?

    can an employee take annual leave from furloughed staff (pro rata, 2 x days per month) without permission or consultation, although they are paying that staff member full pay instead of the 80% for those days? 
    No they can't. 

    In fact it is fraudulent. Essentially they are then only paying that employee 20% (with HMRC paying 80%) of that days annual leave.

    A friends boss asked them to take annual leave before furloughing them so they didn't have loads later in the year. That's acceptable because they didn't start furloughing until the week after but when furloughed you shouldn't be taking annual leave. 
    @bobmunro will be better placed to answer than me but I'm almost certain you are allowed to take holiday whilst furloughed if your company agrees. They should be paid "in full" for that of course.

    Edit, and that's what ACAS says: https://www.acas.org.uk/coronavirus/using-holiday
    I believe that's correct

    I can't imagine too many furloughed employees wanting to take annual leave though!
    But entirely reasonable for the employer to allocate it on the basis that once this madness ends their staff haven't still got 5 weeks' holiday to take in the remainder of the holiday year.

    So effectively enforcing the leave?


    @bobmunro I have to ask, as I will be asked, what are your credentials/qualifications in this area? 

    Thanks for the responses all 

    Yes effectively enforcing leave. It is always better to work together on holiday allocation, but the employer has ultimately the authority to unilaterally allocate leave, giving as I have already said the requisite notice.

    My credentials? - just guessing really!
    This has happened to my son, but his view is that if it helps keep the company going,then fair enough
  • At my work, some of those remaining working through this furlough period are getting bitter that they are covering roles of those furloughed on 90/100% pay who are still accruing annual leave when those working are too busy to take it. Extended to end July those furloughed will ‘lose’ 4-5 ish days from their entitlement I believe. 
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  • https://www.lewissilkin.com/en/insights/furloughing-employefaqs-for-employers-on-the-coronavirus-job-retention-scheme

    This page has a lot of detail, including on the holiday arrangements


    Holidays and furlough

    Will workers continue to accrue holiday allowance while they are furloughed?

    Yes, because they remain employed. This is confirmed in specific government guidance on holiday entitlement and pay during coronavirus.  You could agree to reduce any enhanced contractual holiday (beyond the statutory minimum of 5.6 weeks per year) to reflect the fact that an employee has been on furlough, but employees will retain their right to 5.6 weeks’ annual leave under the Working Time Regulations (WTR).

    Can people ask or be required to take their holiday allowance while furloughed?

    Yes. The holiday guidance confirms that furloughed employees can be on holiday during furlough. This means that, if employees have pre-booked holidays then they will be able to take them, and you do not need to allow rescheduling unless they would ordinarily have a right to reschedule. If you would like to require employees to take holiday during furlough, you would need to give twice as much notice as the length of the holiday you want them to take (e.g. ten days’ notice for five days’ holiday) unless the contract says something else. The holiday guidance does say that employers should consider whether any restrictions such as the need to socially distance or self-isolate would prevent the worker from resting, relaxing and enjoying leisure time, which is the purpose of holiday.

    Can we restrict employees taking holiday?

    The holiday guidance confirms that employers can cancel an employee’s holiday if they give the required amount of notice under the WTR (by giving notice of the same number of days as the holiday the employee wanted to take, e.g. five days’ notice to prevent or cancel five days of holiday). The new right to carry over holiday of up to four weeks into the next two holiday years may assist disgruntled employees who have not been permitted to take holiday during furlough due to the extra cost to the employer.  The holiday guidance says that if the employer is unable to fund the difference due to the impact of coronavirus, it is likely that this would make it not reasonably practicable for the worker to take their holiday and so they would be allowed to carry it forward.

    What about bank holidays during furlough?

    If employees normally work on bank holidays, they will simply be on furlough leave (not holiday) on the bank holiday unless you require them to take a holiday.  If employees have the right to take bank holidays off as holidays, then the holiday guidance says that the employer has two options.  You can agree with the employee to take the bank holiday as annual leave, or require them to take it by giving notice in accordance with the WTR, and pay correct holiday pay for that day.  Or you can agree that the employee defers the holiday to another date and pay furlough pay only on that day.

    What should we pay employees who take holiday during furlough?

    The holiday guidance confirms that employees need to be paid their usual holiday pay rate for statutory minimum holiday (5.6 weeks), not reduced furlough pay. Employers will have to fund any top-up to full holiday pay themselves and will not be able to claim this back through the furlough grant.

    However, employers are still free to agree a different rate of pay for contractual holiday over and above the statutory minimum holiday entitlement of 5.6 weeks. In addition, many employers have asked employees who are still working (i.e. not furloughed) to take cuts in hours and pay.  In our view it could be open to employers in some circumstances to agree similar pay cuts with staff who are furloughed, particularly where colleagues in similar roles who remain at work have agreed to a pay cut, which could also impact on their holiday pay.
  • stonemuse said:
    bobmunro said:
    DA9 said:
    bobmunro said:
    WSS said:
    DA9 said:
    Any HR/employment law bods on here?

    can an employee take annual leave from furloughed staff (pro rata, 2 x days per month) without permission or consultation, although they are paying that staff member full pay instead of the 80% for those days? 
    No they can't. 

    In fact it is fraudulent. Essentially they are then only paying that employee 20% (with HMRC paying 80%) of that days annual leave.

    A friends boss asked them to take annual leave before furloughing them so they didn't have loads later in the year. That's acceptable because they didn't start furloughing until the week after but when furloughed you shouldn't be taking annual leave. 
    @bobmunro will be better placed to answer than me but I'm almost certain you are allowed to take holiday whilst furloughed if your company agrees. They should be paid "in full" for that of course.

    Edit, and that's what ACAS says: https://www.acas.org.uk/coronavirus/using-holiday
    I believe that's correct

    I can't imagine too many furloughed employees wanting to take annual leave though!
    But entirely reasonable for the employer to allocate it on the basis that once this madness ends their staff haven't still got 5 weeks' holiday to take in the remainder of the holiday year.

    So effectively enforcing the leave?


    @bobmunro I have to ask, as I will be asked, what are your credentials/qualifications in this area? 

    Thanks for the responses all 

    Yes effectively enforcing leave. It is always better to work together on holiday allocation, but the employer has ultimately the authority to unilaterally allocate leave, giving as I have already said the requisite notice.

    My credentials? - just guessing really!
    This has happened to my son, but his view is that if it helps keep the company going,then fair enough
    Good on your son, there are too many selfish b******* in the world nowadays.
  • stonemuse said:
    bobmunro said:
    DA9 said:
    bobmunro said:
    WSS said:
    DA9 said:
    Any HR/employment law bods on here?

    can an employee take annual leave from furloughed staff (pro rata, 2 x days per month) without permission or consultation, although they are paying that staff member full pay instead of the 80% for those days? 
    No they can't. 

    In fact it is fraudulent. Essentially they are then only paying that employee 20% (with HMRC paying 80%) of that days annual leave.

    A friends boss asked them to take annual leave before furloughing them so they didn't have loads later in the year. That's acceptable because they didn't start furloughing until the week after but when furloughed you shouldn't be taking annual leave. 
    @bobmunro will be better placed to answer than me but I'm almost certain you are allowed to take holiday whilst furloughed if your company agrees. They should be paid "in full" for that of course.

    Edit, and that's what ACAS says: https://www.acas.org.uk/coronavirus/using-holiday
    I believe that's correct

    I can't imagine too many furloughed employees wanting to take annual leave though!
    But entirely reasonable for the employer to allocate it on the basis that once this madness ends their staff haven't still got 5 weeks' holiday to take in the remainder of the holiday year.

    So effectively enforcing the leave?


    @bobmunro I have to ask, as I will be asked, what are your credentials/qualifications in this area? 

    Thanks for the responses all 

    Yes effectively enforcing leave. It is always better to work together on holiday allocation, but the employer has ultimately the authority to unilaterally allocate leave, giving as I have already said the requisite notice.

    My credentials? - just guessing really!
    This has happened to my son, but his view is that if it helps keep the company going,then fair enough
    That’s my take on it, see my response to eaststandmike further up
  • My employer allows us to carry over maximum of five days annual leave if it's not used by the end of the year. They have said that they will not increase that allowance. You are also allowed to purchase additional annual leave days at the start of the year. These will not be being refunded if not used. 

    The company have encouraged staff to take annual leave whilst this situation continues. I haven't taken any annual leave since February as I'm not wasting days off sitting at home doing nothing. I'd rather wait until I can actually go somewhere and do something. Luckily I work in a team of two so it's easy to sort out between us - if one is off, the other is not! As soon as I'm allowed I'm off to the Isle of Wight to visit my Dad :-)

    If at the end of the year I end up losing annual leave I haven't taken, so be it, I'm just grateful to have a job. 
  • ElfsborgAddick said:
    stonemuse said:
    bobmunro said:
    DA9 said:
    bobmunro said:
    WSS said:
    DA9 said:
    Any HR/employment law bods on here?

    can an employee take annual leave from furloughed staff (pro rata, 2 x days per month) without permission or consultation, although they are paying that staff member full pay instead of the 80% for those days? 
    No they can't. 

    In fact it is fraudulent. Essentially they are then only paying that employee 20% (with HMRC paying 80%) of that days annual leave.

    A friends boss asked them to take annual leave before furloughing them so they didn't have loads later in the year. That's acceptable because they didn't start furloughing until the week after but when furloughed you shouldn't be taking annual leave. 
    @bobmunro will be better placed to answer than me but I'm almost certain you are allowed to take holiday whilst furloughed if your company agrees. They should be paid "in full" for that of course.

    Edit, and that's what ACAS says: https://www.acas.org.uk/coronavirus/using-holiday
    I believe that's correct

    I can't imagine too many furloughed employees wanting to take annual leave though!
    But entirely reasonable for the employer to allocate it on the basis that once this madness ends their staff haven't still got 5 weeks' holiday to take in the remainder of the holiday year.

    So effectively enforcing the leave?


    @bobmunro I have to ask, as I will be asked, what are your credentials/qualifications in this area? 

    Thanks for the responses all 

    Yes effectively enforcing leave. It is always better to work together on holiday allocation, but the employer has ultimately the authority to unilaterally allocate leave, giving as I have already said the requisite notice.

    My credentials? - just guessing really!
    This has happened to my son, but his view is that if it helps keep the company going,then fair enough
    Good on your son, there are too many selfish b******* in the world nowadays.
    Completely, we got asked to agree to make sure all holiday is 50% used by end of August. Thought that was fair so happy to oblige. 

    While everyone one would probably prefer to accrue holiday, be taking it in lockdown we are helping to save jobs. 
  • My employer has said we can carry over any unused annual leave over 2 years, so as not to have an excessive leave period in any one year. Thought that was more than generous.
  • bobmunro said:
    WSS said:
    DA9 said:
    Any HR/employment law bods on here?

    can an employee take annual leave from furloughed staff (pro rata, 2 x days per month) without permission or consultation, although they are paying that staff member full pay instead of the 80% for those days? 
    No they can't. 

    In fact it is fraudulent. Essentially they are then only paying that employee 20% (with HMRC paying 80%) of that days annual leave.

    A friends boss asked them to take annual leave before furloughing them so they didn't have loads later in the year. That's acceptable because they didn't start furloughing until the week after but when furloughed you shouldn't be taking annual leave. 
    @bobmunro will be better placed to answer than me but I'm almost certain you are allowed to take holiday whilst furloughed if your company agrees. They should be paid "in full" for that of course.

    Edit, and that's what ACAS says: https://www.acas.org.uk/coronavirus/using-holiday
    I believe that's correct

    I can't imagine too many furloughed employees wanting to take annual leave though!
    But entirely reasonable for the employer to allocate it on the basis that once this madness ends their staff haven't still got 5 weeks' holiday to take in the remainder of the holiday year.

    Really? Based on what?
  • bobmunro said:
    bobmunro said:
    WSS said:
    DA9 said:
    Any HR/employment law bods on here?

    can an employee take annual leave from furloughed staff (pro rata, 2 x days per month) without permission or consultation, although they are paying that staff member full pay instead of the 80% for those days? 
    No they can't. 

    In fact it is fraudulent. Essentially they are then only paying that employee 20% (with HMRC paying 80%) of that days annual leave.

    A friends boss asked them to take annual leave before furloughing them so they didn't have loads later in the year. That's acceptable because they didn't start furloughing until the week after but when furloughed you shouldn't be taking annual leave. 
    @bobmunro will be better placed to answer than me but I'm almost certain you are allowed to take holiday whilst furloughed if your company agrees. They should be paid "in full" for that of course.

    Edit, and that's what ACAS says: https://www.acas.org.uk/coronavirus/using-holiday
    I believe that's correct

    I can't imagine too many furloughed employees wanting to take annual leave though!
    But entirely reasonable for the employer to allocate it on the basis that once this madness ends their staff haven't still got 5 weeks' holiday to take in the remainder of the holiday year.

    Really? Based on what?
    Based on holidays being taken while there is little to no work for people to do and subsequently having a fully available workforce when this madness is over, enabling businesses to have a chance to recover.
    It's not them and us - it is about owners and staff the working together in a collaborative way to save jobs.


    Totally right ... amazed others can’t see it 
  • edited May 23
    .
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