Perm sporting ban, plus judicial sentence if found guilty.
IMO it's part of a wider issue that canopies public opinion right now.
I've personally witnessed a lot more bitterness and anger in my local area. Generic frustration and a general feeling of neglect, which oddly seems to be infectious right now.
Like most things it has to start with education, whilst having people hide their racism will cover up the problem, surely the real solution is helping people open their minds and not be racist to begin with, sadly it seems we are regressing in that respect。
Like most things it has to start with education, whilst having people hide their racism will cover up the problem, surely the real solution is helping people open their minds and not be racist to begin with, sadly it seems we are regressing in that respect。
Correct , too many thick/ignorant people out there holding a very casual blinkered view of things .
Heard a guy on Talksport suggest the use of a register for convicted racists.
That way individuals would have to take ownership of their crime and suffer the consequences. It would affect their future chances of employment and impact on friendships, partnerships and of course their ability to attend football matches and other sporting events. Might be enough to make them think. I thought it was quite a good idea.
I believe he was trying to obtain the legal clout to launch the idea, not sure what has transpired since.
Does that mean a register for people convicted of racially-aggravated crimes? If so, that makes a lot of sense.
Sorry didn't catch the fine detail.
I recall the guy getting overtalked by our mate Jim White and feeling frustrated that he wasn't given more of a chance to expand on his idea. I'm sure it would be a mine field to define the parameters and negotiate the legality, but it is an idea, and there is a precedent with Sarah's law.
I'm genuinely shocked, we now exist in a time where nothing can be gotten away with. Everything is captured and documented rightly or wrongly yet more stuff like this is happening than has for 30 years. Not only that, there has never been more education give to people too dense to understand what is acceptable and what isn't, and why.
Maybe it's a mob mentality which always attracts the lowest common denominator, maybe it's like someone else said, there is no intent to be a bigot beyind wanting to say the most hurtful, offensive thing possible regardless of how taboo that is.
I think anyone convicted of a racially aggravated crime should be made to watch every current tv advert, which clearly show that most U.K. families are interracial.
James O’Brien on LBC yesterday made a brilliant point IMO.
If we arrest the idiot who was making monkey noises and gestures and he turns round and says, oh but what if I chanted at him “you’re a piccannie with a watermelon smile!” (Boris Johnson circa 2002 article) would that be okay?
In other words, as GNev eluded to, how can we expect better from the people when those at the top are getting away with it.
I’m yet to be convinced we have a problem THAT bad in our society or in football specifically. That may well be a bit head in sand, I just don’t see it myself, I just feel there is a massive escalation thorough social media and buzz topic in press where isolated incidents are getting max coverage. Not saying that this being under the magnifying glass is a bad thing in any way, but I’m not convinced it’s bringing things into the fore is proving a positive way of addressing it, or further more fuelling divisions / race to the bottom like other things and encouraging the minority arseholes, particularly online.
what can be done? Stronger punishments for people found guilty of racism. Career impacting ones and if social media based then lifetime blocks from platforms. I’m convinced Twitter, Facebook and Instagram can do more with this. Really feel we will reach a stage where you will need a paid licence to use social media.
In most cases I’m really not sure what more clubs can do but there needs to be things in place so that they are not just paying lip service to dealing with it. So not just trying to breed and make clear a not in our name culture and fluffy educational efforts but actively putting preventive measures in place with enhanced cctv / audio capture, specific stewarding etc.
If there are incidents and a feeling a club is not doing enough to prevent or address they should lose part of their end of season league / TV payment share. Hit clubs financially and you’ll soon see a desire to up their efforts.
James O’Brien on LBC yesterday made a brilliant point IMO.
If we arrest the idiot who was making monkey noises and gestures and he turns round and says, oh but what if I chanted at him “you’re a piccannie with a watermelon smile!” (Boris Johnson circa 2002 article) would that be okay?
In other words, as GNev eluded to, how can we expect better from the people when those at the top are getting away with it.
Was just about to make this point myself. Priti Patel is in the paper's this morning, rightly, saying how "racism in all walks of life is completely unacceptable..."
This, before she happily goes back to a cabinet headed by an overt racist populated by colleagues who were happily involved in rancid, racially based political campaigning of one type or another. The first chance anyone gets they should ask Johnson whether it wouldn't be a racist (or homophobic) incident at a game if the perpetrators were merely quoting his own words?
It is a problem that is huge and pervades everything. It won't diminish, look how many millions chose to vote for a racist government with such enthusiasm. A lot of people are simply like that to the point that I assume everybody is a racist until I feel in some way reassured that they're not. I might add that being Chinese, or black or brown or Jewish or whatever does not stop someone being racist. However I am more wary of white English people than any other group (I don't live in America, Australia or South Africa). In football if there is a hint of racism ideally matches should be abandoned immediately, get the pain and suffering (of the ruination of the sport) out there and exposed in order to motivate people to try to effect change. It has been a long time since Tommie Smith and John Carlos and what really has fundamentally changed beyond a degree of tokenism?
P.S. I have shouted down and challenged Charlton fans with racist chanting in the past, and memorably a West Ham fan when we were at Selhurst. No bugger lifted a finger or said a word in support. I don't think 'reporting it to a steward' has had much effect in the past, maybe technology will change that.
Never been clear why the finger is always pointed at football when the problem exists in society. Some people enjoy using racist language to be abusive - all you can do is eject or ban them from grounds.
Our PM is a confirmed racist so I fail to see how politicians can provide any lead.
It truly pains me to say it but it will never be completely eradicated - it is so ingrained into the culture of the 'white' world and has been for centuries, if not millennia.
Our society isn't as bad, or at least not as openly racist, as it was in my childhood but it is still there. It's a bit like the 'halving the issue' conundrum. 100% becomes 50%, becomes 25% and so on - but never reaches zero.
For football, as in all walks of life, racists need to be called out, named, shamed and ridiculed. If the problem is on the terraces then it is the overwhelming majority on those terraces that need to police it.
Has he not actually shown a lead? Tories enthusiastically voted for him because he is a racist. Is this not actually what the majority of society want? Or does 'getting Brexit done' mean more than defeating racism?
James O’Brien on LBC yesterday made a brilliant point IMO.
If we arrest the idiot who was making monkey noises and gestures and he turns round and says, oh but what if I chanted at him “you’re a piccannie with a watermelon smile!” (Boris Johnson circa 2002 article) would that be okay?
In other words, as GNev eluded to, how can we expect better from the people when those at the top are getting away with it.
To further add to this, the other point was on class. If you’re flaunting racist ideals whilst wearing a chalk stripe suit and speak with an Eton accent you can win a seat in Parliament, if you’re wearing a stone island jumper you make the headlines and lose your job.
The problem with racist chants at football is undoubtedly better than it used to be but I think there are two factors bringing it out more. The first (and admirably expressed by our own Lyle Taylor) is an unwillingness among players to put up with it. This is crucial - if you listen to black footballers from the 70s or 80s or 90s, they knew it was going on but were not in a position to challenge it. Thanks to the work done by previous generations, the current players are and they deserve our support in doing so. The second factor is that we do have high-profile racist comments from the Prime Minister and serious allegations of racism in both main political parties. Smart players like Farage usually just use a dog whistle to express their racism, but Boris is so far removed from normal behaviour he doesn't feel he needs to. The political divide is connected to the polarisation there is in society and that is going to be reflected in all walks of life, including the terraces. I believe that most decent people of all political persuasions don't want to see racism in football (or most other places) but it is there - even at Charlton where there was the racist incident in the Upper North a month ago where the person who reported it was called a "grass" by someone who was either a racist or thought that not talking to stewards was a higher principle than standing up to racist abuse by Charlton fans. I liked the report of the guy who owned Beitar Jerusalem. The people making racist chants or shouting racist things need to be prosecuted and gone after by the law, the football authorities and the clubs they claim to support. We are in a world where the culprits can be identified. Ideally, the process should aim at educating them so they don't do it again: but if that fails, I'd settle for them keeping quiet or just not coming.
I think we need to stop looking for “Someone , somewhere to do something “ . We the fans can stop this on the terraces by speaking up , standing together and making it unacceptable for the few brain dead to air their idiotic views , by pointing them out to stewards or throwing them out ourselves. I’ve heard nothing racist I’m pleased to say at the valley for many many years . I think the supporters Trust can play a part to make sure it stays that way .
I think we need to stop looking for “Someone , somewhere to do something “ . We the fans can stop this on the terraces by speaking up , standing together and making it unacceptable for the few brain dead to air their idiotic views , by pointing them out to stewards or throwing them out ourselves. I’ve heard nothing racist I’m pleased to say at the valley for many many years . I think the supporters Trust can play a part to make sure it stays that way .
this is the only way it will be stopped .. I just hate the thought of players walking off due to being abused .. also, my cynicism indicates that it is not beyond the bounds of possibility that unscrupulous players and managers could use, the 'walk off and abandonment' to save themselves from (e.g.) losing a relegation game/preventing the opposition from winning a vital game .. let's all hope that things never get that far
P.S. I have shouted down and challenged Charlton fans with racist chanting in the past, and memorably a West Ham fan when we were at Selhurst. No bugger lifted a finger or said a word in support. I don't think 'reporting it to a steward' has had much effect in the past, maybe technology will change that.
That’s it in a nutshell. WE are ALL responsible for dealing with it. I commend you and anyone else who deals with it when it happens. Then and only then can those who still thinks it’s fine to do it, stop and realise it isn’t.
I think we need to stop looking for “Someone , somewhere to do something “ . We the fans can stop this on the terraces by speaking up , standing together and making it unacceptable for the few brain dead to air their idiotic views , by pointing them out to stewards or throwing them out ourselves. I’ve heard nothing racist I’m pleased to say at the valley for many many years . I think the supporters Trust can play a part to make sure it stays that way .
this is the only way it will be stopped .. I just hate the thought of players walking off due to being abused .. also, my cynicism indicates that it is not beyond the bounds of possibility that unscrupulous players and managers could use, the 'walk off and abandonment' to save themselves from (e.g.) losing a relegation game/preventing the opposition from winning a vital game .. let's all hope that things never get that far
If the unscrupulously minded play the system as you describe then let it play out. Eventually the chaos in football will then get some attention rather than the apologistic half hearted stuff we hear now. I know full well racism is a problem in society, but why can't the fight back start in football? If the boxing day match is abandoned because someone shouts racist abuse at a Bristol City or Charlton player then so be it. It might encourage fellow fans to change behaviour.
Absolutely bang on. So, there were what, 60,000 fans at the game? And possibly two or three decide to play the muppett? These morons are racist 24/7, football just gives them an excuse because they feel brave in amongst a crowd. Arrest them, charge them, punish them, job done. Your'e not going to change them so treat them as criminals- same as career villains. Do the crime do the time. IMHO racism will NEVER go away no matter how much hand wringing statements, fines, ground closures etc. nor how much money is thrown at the problem by authorities and organisations. It will remain in ALL societies worldwide because, sadly, it's human nature and to pretend otherwise is delusional.
Pause for a moment and consider if you have a child bullied at school. First it has to be proved beyond reasonable doubt who the bullies are. However I doubt if you would be satisfied if the school authorities said bullying always goes on, it is human nature and will never go away, I suspect most people would search for ways to deal with it and to stop it. What worries me is that if we say such things are forever going to happen it is a bit defeatist and it gets worse. You only have to look at the election result to see where equivocation gets you. personally I would rather have the bejaysus kicked out of me by a group of racists than ignore it. Even better if somebody can film the kicking I get.
Like most things it has to start with education, whilst having people hide their racism will cover up the problem, surely the real solution is helping people open their minds and not be racist to begin with, sadly it seems we are regressing in that respect。
Correct , too many thick/ignorant people out there holding a very casual blinkered view of things .
So, if Corbyn and Johnson are racists, does this make them thick or ignorant ?
Racism was rife in football 30 years ago, and IMO is much less evident now. Its just, as AFKA points out, that social media will highlight any incident and bring it to the fore much more than before. Unfortunately there will be racism in football in 30 years time too.
I don't really believe the people making racist comments are actually racists.
They just want to be as offensive as they can to whomever they want to be offensive to. And racist comments seem to do the trick.
Oh, well that makes it alright then.
If spouting racist rhetoric and making monkey noises and espousing other such tropes doesn't actually make you a racist, then what the hell else does?
It certainly does NOT make it right! I am not suggesting that.
But I am suggesting that the motivation is not usually the same as those who believe other races are inferior and should therefore be segregated or "cleansed" from society. Maybe that's what really makes someone a racist?
When football hooligans smash up pubs and trains, they don't do it because they have a hatred of drinking establishments and public transport. They're just bloody hooligans!
Stand up and challenge a racist rant even at the risk to your own personal safety. There will be people around you that will challenge unwanted aggression.
It is a problem that is huge and pervades everything. It won't diminish, look how many millions chose to vote for a racist government with such enthusiasm. A lot of people are simply like that to the point that I assume everybody is a racist until I feel in some way reassured that they're not. I might add that being Chinese, or black or brown or Jewish or whatever does not stop someone being racist. However I am more wary of white English people than any other group (I don't live in America, Australia or South Africa). In football if there is a hint of racism ideally matches should be abandoned immediately, get the pain and suffering (of the ruination of the sport) out there and exposed in order to motivate people to try to effect change. It has been a long time since Tommie Smith and John Carlos and what really has fundamentally changed beyond a degree of tokenism?
Sorry, what?
On what fucking planet is that an acceptable comment? Unbelievable. And in a thread about racism.
I genuinely think Seth has lost the old plotto in recent weeks.
if your spuds don’t crisp tomorrow try not to blame it on the election. The world today is exactly the same one from a month ago, and will be exactly the same tomorrow.
Comments
IMO it's part of a wider issue that canopies public opinion right now.
I've personally witnessed a lot more bitterness and anger in my local area. Generic frustration and a general feeling of neglect, which oddly seems to be infectious right now.
I recall the guy getting overtalked by our mate Jim White and feeling frustrated that he wasn't given more of a chance to expand on his idea. I'm sure it would be a mine field to define the parameters and negotiate the legality, but it is an idea, and there is a precedent with Sarah's law.
Maybe it's a mob mentality which always attracts the lowest common denominator, maybe it's like someone else said, there is no intent to be a bigot beyind wanting to say the most hurtful, offensive thing possible regardless of how taboo that is.
If we arrest the idiot who was making monkey noises and gestures and he turns round and says, oh but what if I chanted at him “you’re a piccannie with a watermelon smile!” (Boris Johnson circa 2002 article) would that be okay?
I’m yet to be convinced we have a problem THAT bad in our society or in football specifically. That may well be a bit head in sand, I just don’t see it myself, I just feel there is a massive escalation thorough social media and buzz topic in press where isolated incidents are getting max coverage. Not saying that this being under the magnifying glass is a bad thing in any way, but I’m not convinced it’s bringing things into the fore is proving a positive way of addressing it, or further more fuelling divisions / race to the bottom like other things and encouraging the minority arseholes, particularly online.
what can be done? Stronger punishments for people found guilty of racism. Career impacting ones and if social media based then lifetime blocks from platforms. I’m convinced Twitter, Facebook and Instagram can do more with this. Really feel we will reach a stage where you will need a paid licence to use social media.
In most cases I’m really not sure what more clubs can do but there needs to be things in place so that they are not just paying lip service to dealing with it. So not just trying to breed and make clear a not in our name culture and fluffy educational efforts but actively putting preventive measures in place with enhanced cctv / audio capture, specific stewarding etc.
If there are incidents and a feeling a club is not doing enough to prevent or address they should lose part of their end of season league / TV payment share. Hit clubs financially and you’ll soon see a desire to up their efforts.
This, before she happily goes back to a cabinet headed by an overt racist populated by colleagues who were happily involved in rancid, racially based political campaigning of one type or another. The first chance anyone gets they should ask Johnson whether it wouldn't be a racist (or homophobic) incident at a game if the perpetrators were merely quoting his own words?
It won't diminish, look how many millions chose to vote for a racist government with such enthusiasm.
A lot of people are simply like that to the point that I assume everybody is a racist until I feel in some way reassured that they're not.
I might add that being Chinese, or black or brown or Jewish or whatever does not stop someone being racist. However I am more wary of white English people than any other group (I don't live in America, Australia or South Africa).
In football if there is a hint of racism ideally matches should be abandoned immediately, get the pain and suffering (of the ruination of the sport) out there and exposed in order to motivate people to try to effect change.
It has been a long time since Tommie Smith and John Carlos and what really has fundamentally changed beyond a degree of tokenism?
I have shouted down and challenged Charlton fans with racist chanting in the past, and memorably a West Ham fan when we were at Selhurst. No bugger lifted a finger or said a word in support.
I don't think 'reporting it to a steward' has had much effect in the past, maybe technology will change that.
Our PM is a confirmed racist so I fail to see how politicians can provide any lead.
Our society isn't as bad, or at least not as openly racist, as it was in my childhood but it is still there. It's a bit like the 'halving the issue' conundrum. 100% becomes 50%, becomes 25% and so on - but never reaches zero.
For football, as in all walks of life, racists need to be called out, named, shamed and ridiculed. If the problem is on the terraces then it is the overwhelming majority on those terraces that need to police it.
The second factor is that we do have high-profile racist comments from the Prime Minister and serious allegations of racism in both main political parties. Smart players like Farage usually just use a dog whistle to express their racism, but Boris is so far removed from normal behaviour he doesn't feel he needs to. The political divide is connected to the polarisation there is in society and that is going to be reflected in all walks of life, including the terraces.
I believe that most decent people of all political persuasions don't want to see racism in football (or most other places) but it is there - even at Charlton where there was the racist incident in the Upper North a month ago where the person who reported it was called a "grass" by someone who was either a racist or thought that not talking to stewards was a higher principle than standing up to racist abuse by Charlton fans.
I liked the report of the guy who owned Beitar Jerusalem. The people making racist chants or shouting racist things need to be prosecuted and gone after by the law, the football authorities and the clubs they claim to support. We are in a world where the culprits can be identified. Ideally, the process should aim at educating them so they don't do it again: but if that fails, I'd settle for them keeping quiet or just not coming.
WE are ALL responsible for dealing with it.
I commend you and anyone else who deals with it when it happens.
Then and only then can those who still thinks it’s fine to do it, stop and realise it isn’t.
The buck stops with US, ALL of US.
If spouting racist rhetoric and making monkey noises and espousing other such tropes doesn't actually make you a racist, then what the hell else does?
I know full well racism is a problem in society, but why can't the fight back start in football?
If the boxing day match is abandoned because someone shouts racist abuse at a Bristol City or Charlton player then so be it. It might encourage fellow fans to change behaviour.
First it has to be proved beyond reasonable doubt who the bullies are.
However I doubt if you would be satisfied if the school authorities said bullying always goes on, it is human nature and will never go away, I suspect most people would search for ways to deal with it and to stop it.
What worries me is that if we say such things are forever going to happen it is a bit defeatist and it gets worse. You only have to look at the election result to see where equivocation gets you.
personally I would rather have the bejaysus kicked out of me by a group of racists than ignore it.
Even better if somebody can film the kicking I get.
Racism was rife in football 30 years ago, and IMO is much less evident now. Its just, as AFKA points out, that social media will highlight any incident and bring it to the fore much more than before.
Unfortunately there will be racism in football in 30 years time too.
But I am suggesting that the motivation is not usually the same as those who believe other races are inferior and should therefore be segregated or "cleansed" from society. Maybe that's what really makes someone a racist?
When football hooligans smash up pubs and trains, they don't do it because they have a hatred of drinking establishments and public transport. They're just bloody hooligans!
On what fucking planet is that an acceptable comment? Unbelievable. And in a thread about racism.
if your spuds don’t crisp tomorrow try not to blame it on the election. The world today is exactly the same one from a month ago, and will be exactly the same tomorrow.
Have a good Xmas pal.
He can assume everyone is racist, he hates nearly half of us and says nearly half the country is evil.