CAFC staff threaten to sue Duchatelet over unpaid bonuses
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Not a second more3
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My wife is a nurse, she runs operating theatres.N01R4M said:@iainment I sincerely hope that if you have kids their teachers do not share your attitude! Because, believe me, schools would be unable to function without many hours of unpaid overtime done by the staff.
I am sure education is far from being unique (and I don't mean weird) in this respect, but it is a profession of which I have long experience, and can therefore speak with personal knowledge.
She can't just go home at the end of a shift if that means there is no one in the operating theatre or enough staff to cover an emergency.
Obviously, that is in part due to much larger problems in the NHS but she, and many like her, are not idiots, thanks very much @iainment but I know who is.30 -
The announcer, I was stood next to him with at least 2 others from this board at the time.RodneyCharltonTrotta said:...
Who did?Carter said:He's part of it, ran to Mick Everett after hearing timings of protests like class grass
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I very much doubt there are many idiots who work for our club that also support it.Airman Brown said:
The sort of idiot that supports the club they work for.iainment said:
What sort of idiot does more than they are contracted to? You are selling your labour and if your boss expects more than what's agreed then there's something wrong. And if you do so voluntarily then you're just undervaluing yourself.Manicmania said:
Yep absolutely. Work to rule I think it's called - don't do anything over and above what you are contracted to do._MrDick said:If I were an employee of Charlton Athletic, right now, I wouldn’t be working anything other than my contracted hours. If I’m paid for 37.5 hours per week, then that’s what I’d be working. Wouldn’t do another minute unless I was paid overtime. What are they going to do, sack all of the staff for working contracted hours ...
I never have and never will work for free. No one should.
There probably are a few employees who support Charlton but I think it would be fair to assume there are many more who do the job they do because its a job. Its a lovely thought that the clubs employees have a sentimental attachment to it but I think its a little simpler than that, they have done a job asked of them and now expect payment.
Whilst a lot of people in any job do over and above there are many that do what they're required to do and do it efficiently in the time they are contracted for. Most of us have probably worked with the busy drama queen who has to let be known how stressed an overworked they are.
My view has always been if you work over and above your contracted hours or the workload becomes excessive, there is something very wrong with either yourself, (not capable of doing the job),or there is something wrong with the company. The latter might be true about Charlton
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Carter said:
The announcer, I was stood next to him with at least 2 others from this board at the time.RodneyCharltonTrotta said:...
Who did?Carter said:He's part of it, ran to Mick Everett after hearing timings of protests like class grass
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Fair play, but maybe if you didn't word in such a way, you wouldn't get the hostile reply.iainment said:
I do my work. I don't leave stuff for others to do if it's mine. I am flexible and will stay late if necessary but I get that time back later.Off_it said:
He's probably quite set in his ways now after 40 years opening the post and doubling up in the filing room from time to time. But he still probably puzzles occasionally why such a clever bloke as he never ever got promoted.Rob7Lee said:@iainment - come and work in my industry, attending the fans forum tonight was the first time I haven't exceeded my 7 hours for as long as I can remember!
We've all worked with the Iain's of this world. They leave at 5pm on the dot everyday and leave you to clear up the urgent shit he never bothered to do before he left.
(And that's just a light hearted sweeping generalisation, not a personal dig as I have no idea which post room he works in)
;-)
Sorry I don't fit your description.
If you donate your time to your boss for free that's up to you but you shouldn't expect everyone to be like that.
Oh and I am in a job where I have been promoted and manage staff and resources.
I'd say the vast majority of private sector workers exceed their hours on regular basis for little more than a small mention in dispatches now and again, but if you're not flexible you don't tend to get very far imo6 -
I'm not going to be popular saying this....Henry Irving said:
My wife is a nurse, she runs operating theatres.N01R4M said:@iainment I sincerely hope that if you have kids their teachers do not share your attitude! Because, believe me, schools would be unable to function without many hours of unpaid overtime done by the staff.
I am sure education is far from being unique (and I don't mean weird) in this respect, but it is a profession of which I have long experience, and can therefore speak with personal knowledge.
She can't just go home at the end of a shift if that means there is no one in the operating theatre or enough staff to cover an emergency.
Obviously, that is in part due to much larger problems in the NHS but she, and many like her, are not idiots, thanks very much @iainment but I know who is.
If anyone works beyond their hours, fair one, they obviously care. They should also be getting payment for their time and acknowledgement in time off in lieu as a minimum. I do tons of extra hours at my place, it's called overtime. If I was to drop dead tomorrow I guarantee my employers would soon find someone else to bully into working for free. I am a grafter however I don't expect to have the piss taken out of me11 -
I hope she gets the time back. I wouldn't want anyone to be burned out by unnecessary demands of a job.Henry Irving said:
My wife is a nurse, she runs operating theatres.N01R4M said:@iainment I sincerely hope that if you have kids their teachers do not share your attitude! Because, believe me, schools would be unable to function without many hours of unpaid overtime done by the staff.
I am sure education is far from being unique (and I don't mean weird) in this respect, but it is a profession of which I have long experience, and can therefore speak with personal knowledge.
She can't just go home at the end of a shift if that means there is no one in the operating theatre or enough staff to cover an emergency.
Obviously, that is in part due to much larger problems in the NHS but she, and many like her, are not idiots, thanks very much @iainment but I know who is.
As you say there are larger problems in the NHS which if addressed might mean relying on vocational guilt would be lessened.3 -
No doubt Roland paid the staff an extra bonus when he received the windfall from selling Fox and Lookman.2
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The first point made here is a good one. Bonuses are due, and the club says nothing either way presumably until somebody actually asks where they are. Did Roland think he could wing it, or staff would forget, or it would simply go away?Redmidland said:If you read the letter from the staff to RD the opening sentence says and I quote “ we wish to express our extreme disappointment at your decision not to pay hard working staff the money that had been previously promised based on our performances this year.
The letter goes onto talk about the staff working above and beyond their contractural requirements for the good of the club. RD and his board, Richard Murray, are the ones that have quite clearly not met their targets due to complete mismanagement off the field.
However leaving this to one side, the biggest ‘crime’ here is NOT to tell the staff until some 20 days after the bonuses should have been paid that they are not getting them. That is not excuseable and shows a cowardly streak by both of the aforementioned people.
It can’t have been a surprise to RD/RM that the club were going to have a bad financial year (if it was a surprise then there is no hope for us while these two Charlie’s are in charge), so why not tell the staff the bonuses promised weren’t coming a few months ago? Perhaps when the season finished? To not say anything is indefensible and not how ANY business should be run.
My advice to the staff is work your contracted hours, refuse to do anything outside of your job description. That’s not striking it’s doing just what you’re paid to do, nothing more nothing less.
RD needs to understand he can’t treat his staff this way, and I have to ask what RM is doing while this is going on.
This stinks of an owner who, despite being a millionaire, is a vindictive person with no clue about people who, perhaps, worked really hard to get their bonus, achieved targets, only to be told “sorry we’ve screwed up you get nothing”
All fans, should stand up for what’s right and moral, not trying to defend the indefensible.
I’m not a member of any group, just an individual old person that thinks this stinks more than anything else this owner has done over the last 4 years.
Absolute classless behaviour which shows the same contempt for staff that the club shows to fans.
Even though Duchatelet has no wriggle room on this, he and his apologists will try to find some, probably badly initiated by Cojones.
This is a very low blow to poorly paid staff and there is no justification for it at all. None.
Surely anybody can see what a nasty vindictive evil person Duchatelet is. He is impressed by Alan Turings legacy, but unless he bails now his memory and legacy will lead to vinegar being pissed on his grave, not remembered with a smile but a sneer.1 - Sponsored links:
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They should be but they don't. Yeah, she cares but she, and millions like her, do not deserve to be called "idiots" for it in order to score a cheap point about Charlton staff (who also care and who are also not idiots)Carter said:
I'm not going to be popular saying this....Henry Irving said:
My wife is a nurse, she runs operating theatres.N01R4M said:@iainment I sincerely hope that if you have kids their teachers do not share your attitude! Because, believe me, schools would be unable to function without many hours of unpaid overtime done by the staff.
I am sure education is far from being unique (and I don't mean weird) in this respect, but it is a profession of which I have long experience, and can therefore speak with personal knowledge.
She can't just go home at the end of a shift if that means there is no one in the operating theatre or enough staff to cover an emergency.
Obviously, that is in part due to much larger problems in the NHS but she, and many like her, are not idiots, thanks very much @iainment but I know who is.
If anyone works beyond their hours, fair one, they obviously care. They should also be getting payment for their time and acknowledgement in time off in lieu as a minimum. I do tons of extra hours at my place, it's called overtime. If I was to drop dead tomorrow I guarantee my employers would soon find someone else to bully into working for free. I am a grafter however I don't expect to have the piss taken out of me14 -
Go wish in one hand & shit in the other, see what one fills up first.andynelson said:No doubt Roland paid the staff an extra bonus when he received the windfall from selling Fox and Lookman.
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Here here. Don't let them walk all over you. Treat your staff well, and they will go the extra bit for you. Treat them like shit, expect them to have contempt for you and do the graft in the alloted time which your contract states. No more no less!Carter said:
I'm not going to be popular saying this....Henry Irving said:
My wife is a nurse, she runs operating theatres.N01R4M said:@iainment I sincerely hope that if you have kids their teachers do not share your attitude! Because, believe me, schools would be unable to function without many hours of unpaid overtime done by the staff.
I am sure education is far from being unique (and I don't mean weird) in this respect, but it is a profession of which I have long experience, and can therefore speak with personal knowledge.
She can't just go home at the end of a shift if that means there is no one in the operating theatre or enough staff to cover an emergency.
Obviously, that is in part due to much larger problems in the NHS but she, and many like her, are not idiots, thanks very much @iainment but I know who is.
If anyone works beyond their hours, fair one, they obviously care. They should also be getting payment for their time and acknowledgement in time off in lieu as a minimum. I do tons of extra hours at my place, it's called overtime. If I was to drop dead tomorrow I guarantee my employers would soon find someone else to bully into working for free. I am a grafter however I don't expect to have the piss taken out of me6 -
It's interesting to hear counter views. However if a promise is made by an employer, it should be honoured.Airman Brown said:
If only Roland could rely on more people like you to support his imaginative and innovative leadership of the club all the way to the Conference...letthegoodtimesroll said:If only I’d realised I could have called upon the support of CARD in those years when my employer made a loss and I didn’t get paid a bonus...
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Indeed, but I'm still waiting to hear what part of losing £10m wasn't known when the promise was made. The staff could do nothing to influence that because it could only be changed by player sales. They did what was asked of them, which no one is disputing.smudge7946 said:
It's interesting to hear counter views. However if a promise is made by an employer, it should be honoured.Airman Brown said:
If only Roland could rely on more people like you to support his imaginative and innovative leadership of the club all the way to the Conference...letthegoodtimesroll said:If only I’d realised I could have called upon the support of CARD in those years when my employer made a loss and I didn’t get paid a bonus...
If the offer was contingent on making a profit it was dishonest in the first place. If it wasn't, the loss is irrelevant.26 -
What job do you do? In the industry I work in lots of people work extra, it's not working for free, it's enjoying the job you do. That's the pay off.Carter said:
I'm not going to be popular saying this....Henry Irving said:
My wife is a nurse, she runs operating theatres.N01R4M said:@iainment I sincerely hope that if you have kids their teachers do not share your attitude! Because, believe me, schools would be unable to function without many hours of unpaid overtime done by the staff.
I am sure education is far from being unique (and I don't mean weird) in this respect, but it is a profession of which I have long experience, and can therefore speak with personal knowledge.
She can't just go home at the end of a shift if that means there is no one in the operating theatre or enough staff to cover an emergency.
Obviously, that is in part due to much larger problems in the NHS but she, and many like her, are not idiots, thanks very much @iainment but I know who is.
If anyone works beyond their hours, fair one, they obviously care. They should also be getting payment for their time and acknowledgement in time off in lieu as a minimum. I do tons of extra hours at my place, it's called overtime. If I was to drop dead tomorrow I guarantee my employers would soon find someone else to bully into working for free. I am a grafter however I don't expect to have the piss taken out of me0 -
I can't see many of my fellow news cameramen getting very far if they stopped work every day when their shifts ended.iainment said:
What sort of idiot does more than they are contracted to? You are selling your labour and if your boss expects more than what's agreed then there's something wrong. And if you do so voluntarily then you're just undervaluing yourself.Manicmania said:
Yep absolutely. Work to rule I think it's called - don't do anything over and above what you are contracted to do._MrDick said:If I were an employee of Charlton Athletic, right now, I wouldn’t be working anything other than my contracted hours. If I’m paid for 37.5 hours per week, then that’s what I’d be working. Wouldn’t do another minute unless I was paid overtime. What are they going to do, sack all of the staff for working contracted hours ...
I never have and never will work for free. No one should.
But if they didn't get a bonus that they were promised, action would be taken.0 -
The trouble is there are those on here that only want to hear their own a views.smudge7946 said:
It's interesting to hear counter views. However if a promise is made by an employer, it should be honoured.Airman Brown said:
If only Roland could rely on more people like you to support his imaginative and innovative leadership of the club all the way to the Conference...letthegoodtimesroll said:If only I’d realised I could have called upon the support of CARD in those years when my employer made a loss and I didn’t get paid a bonus...
I saw a similar but not bonus related employee situation unfold last year where outside groups got involved and the press were made aware of it and all sorts of threats were made. Didn’t make a blind bit of difference to the employer or the outcome for the employees, though I’ve no idea how those employees are getting on in their new careers, assuming they are in employment elsewhere of course - and obviously no longer a concern for the outside group with other causes to kick up a fuss about except the employer saw how easy it was to win last time and did it again.0 -
You are one of the truly lucky people in the world. I have no idea what you do but if you do for the love of it, it must be an amazing job.PopIcon said:
What job do you do? In the industry I work in lots of people work extra, it's not working for free, it's enjoying the job you do. That's the pay off.Carter said:
I'm not going to be popular saying this....Henry Irving said:
My wife is a nurse, she runs operating theatres.N01R4M said:@iainment I sincerely hope that if you have kids their teachers do not share your attitude! Because, believe me, schools would be unable to function without many hours of unpaid overtime done by the staff.
I am sure education is far from being unique (and I don't mean weird) in this respect, but it is a profession of which I have long experience, and can therefore speak with personal knowledge.
She can't just go home at the end of a shift if that means there is no one in the operating theatre or enough staff to cover an emergency.
Obviously, that is in part due to much larger problems in the NHS but she, and many like her, are not idiots, thanks very much @iainment but I know who is.
If anyone works beyond their hours, fair one, they obviously care. They should also be getting payment for their time and acknowledgement in time off in lieu as a minimum. I do tons of extra hours at my place, it's called overtime. If I was to drop dead tomorrow I guarantee my employers would soon find someone else to bully into working for free. I am a grafter however I don't expect to have the piss taken out of me
I like my job and most of the things that are attached to it but all said and done I do it so I can do the things I want to do when I'm not working.
Not many would choose working for free over time spent away from it.1 -
I have spent my whole working life working beyond what I am paid for. Obviously I run a small company and I have to work long hours to ensure that we make money and I can pay my staff, in the 25 years I have been part-time at the fire service I have worked lots of unpaid hours as it often doesn't feel like a job. I think KFRS take it for granted what we do and rely on it, but I don't do it for the money. However if I had been promised something and then that wasn't delivered I would probably be thoroughly pissed off.3
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It doesn't surprise me in the slightest that the club just went silent on the bonuses when they weren't paid. That's exactly how it went down where I work.Redmidland said:If you read the letter from the staff to RD the opening sentence says and I quote “ we wish to express our extreme disappointment at your decision not to pay hard working staff the money that had been previously promised based on our performances this year.
The letter goes onto talk about the staff working above and beyond their contractural requirements for the good of the club. RD and his board, Richard Murray, are the ones that have quite clearly not met their targets due to complete mismanagement off the field.
However leaving this to one side, the biggest ‘crime’ here is NOT to tell the staff until some 20 days after the bonuses should have been paid that they are not getting them. That is not excuseable and shows a cowardly streak by both of the aforementioned people.
It can’t have been a surprise to RD/RM that the club were going to have a bad financial year (if it was a surprise then there is no hope for us while these two Charlie’s are in charge), so why not tell the staff the bonuses promised weren’t coming a few months ago? Perhaps when the season finished? To not say anything is indefensible and not how ANY business should be run.
My advice to the staff is work your contracted hours, refuse to do anything outside of your job description. That’s not striking it’s doing just what you’re paid to do, nothing more nothing less.
RD needs to understand he can’t treat his staff this way, and I have to ask what RM is doing while this is going on.
This stinks of an owner who, despite being a millionaire, is a vindictive person with no clue about people who, perhaps, worked really hard to get their bonus, achieved targets, only to be told “sorry we’ve screwed up you get nothing”
All fans, should stand up for what’s right and moral, not trying to defend the indefensible.
I’m not a member of any group, just an individual old person that thinks this stinks more than anything else this owner has done over the last 4 years.
The sort of people who have the nerve to take your bonus away rarely have the guts to tell you to your face.0 -
Bowyer met with a player yesterday , and the clubs trying to arrange a deal ...
So much for ‘can’t afford it’ in regards of no more than £70k ... but can afford to sign and pay for a kid from the premier league team2 -
Yes and what's the best way to ensure that all his company employees are aware at Melexis and elsewhere ?foxjam said:
Hopefully Belgian media too. That will hurt Roland the most.Airman Brown said:More media coverage coming tomorrow.
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Is that because a) they don’t know what RD is like; and b) they really give a shit about a L1 football team in England ?Covered End said:
Yes and what's the best way to ensure that all his company employees are aware at Melexis and elsewhere.foxjam said:
Hopefully Belgian media too. That will hurt Roland the most.Airman Brown said:More media coverage coming tomorrow.
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At a rough calculation I have estimated that over my working lifetime I worked at least two extra years unpaid.
I didn't particularly want to, but it was unavoidable however hard I tried.
I learned that you either accepted it with as good a grace as you could muster, or went on strike and didn't work at all. There was never any suggestion of a bonus.
The discussion about how workers are treated goes back at least as far (in the western Christian tradition) to the parable of the vinyard.0 -
I'd be interested to know what sort of "bubble" you work in.iainment said:
It's unsustainable then. What happens when the goodwill is exhausted?N01R4M said:@iainment I sincerely hope that if you have kids their teachers do not share your attitude! Because, believe me, schools would be unable to function without many hours of unpaid overtime done by the staff.
I am sure education is far from being unique (and I don't mean weird) in this respect, but it is a profession of which I have long experience, and can therefore speak with personal knowledge.
Fair pay for what is worked is not too much to ask for.
The vocation myth is just that and it relies on people accepting being lied to about their contracts and being exploited.
There are very few bosses who go above and beyond for their staff unless it helps their career. However there are loads of bosses who expect more than what is contracted for from their staff. Usually with scant recognition.
I worked over and beyond from the first day at work, until the day I retired.6 -
That's clearly not the case, you only have to look at the amount of people on here who work extra time for the same pay off.charltonkeston said:
You are one of the truly lucky people in the world. I have no idea what you do but if you do for the love of it, it must be an amazing job.PopIcon said:
What job do you do? In the industry I work in lots of people work extra, it's not working for free, it's enjoying the job you do. That's the pay off.Carter said:
I'm not going to be popular saying this....Henry Irving said:
My wife is a nurse, she runs operating theatres.N01R4M said:@iainment I sincerely hope that if you have kids their teachers do not share your attitude! Because, believe me, schools would be unable to function without many hours of unpaid overtime done by the staff.
I am sure education is far from being unique (and I don't mean weird) in this respect, but it is a profession of which I have long experience, and can therefore speak with personal knowledge.
She can't just go home at the end of a shift if that means there is no one in the operating theatre or enough staff to cover an emergency.
Obviously, that is in part due to much larger problems in the NHS but she, and many like her, are not idiots, thanks very much @iainment but I know who is.
If anyone works beyond their hours, fair one, they obviously care. They should also be getting payment for their time and acknowledgement in time off in lieu as a minimum. I do tons of extra hours at my place, it's called overtime. If I was to drop dead tomorrow I guarantee my employers would soon find someone else to bully into working for free. I am a grafter however I don't expect to have the piss taken out of me
I like my job and most of the things that are attached to it but all said and done I do it so I can do the things I want to do when I'm not working.
Not many would choose working for free over time spent away from it.
I know plenty of people in creative industries who never really switch off, the industry is notorious for long hours. I find it amusing that it is people outside of this industry who seem to have most issues with it.
#RolandOut
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Shame shame shame shame shameletthegoodtimesroll said:
I think in this case he doesn’t need my support to do that, he’s got CARD. The Sunday editorials could have a field day with this and they might just support the employer in this instance because, I suspect, most of the employees in this country don’t get a bonus, especially if the firm they work didn’t make a profit, unless of course they are contractually entitled to it, in which case i would have thought it would be less awkward for the employees if CARD didn’t make a big fuss.Airman Brown said:
If only Roland could rely on more people like you to support his imaginative and innovative leadership of the club all the way to the Conference...letthegoodtimesroll said:If only I’d realised I could have called upon the support of CARD in those years when my employer made a loss and I didn’t get paid a bonus...
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There are people who will work voluntary because they love it, or because they have a personal commitment to do it. Others will simply do the work they are paid to do and no more.
Similarly there are people who will donate to charity and some who don’t, some who will help old ladies across the road and some who won’t, some who will tidy up after others and some who think sod em.
It is the nature of the world, vive la différence and all that.
What we are talking about here is the ‘promise’ of bonus payments for ‘actual’ work carried out. Work that was already over and above what was normal and work that was incentivised by that promise of extra remuneration to ensure the work was completed.
The issue here is not whether they should have done the ‘extra’ work or not, but whether it can be proved that the promise of a bonus for it was made in the first place.
In writing would be perfect, but as far as I understand from my limited knowledge of employment law;
1. If there was a verbal promise made in front of enough staff at the same time, then a verbal contract can be proved to exist and should be binding. An employer would have to prove that this verbal promise was not made and this would be almost impossible, especially given that there is also an historical precedent of it.
2. Similarly as it is the case that historically bonuses have been paid by the club for targets met and that targets were again given, unless there is a written or proven verbal statement in advance informing staff that this would not be the case this time then an employee would be perfectly entitled to believe that the silence from an employer is an assumption of acceptance that bonuses would be paid as in previous years.
As far as I understand it, if you continue to do something as part of an employees working practice, then it becomes normal and becomes contractual, whether it is in writing or not.
It then comes down to the ‘discretionary’ bit. Again if there is nothing in writing mentioning in advance that the bonuses are subject to the profit situation of the club and that based on the result, despite targets being set, payments may not be forthcoming, then I don’t see how the club cannot be held accountable for these payments.
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Stick me work van and all the tools in it that it's local governmentCovered End said:
I'd be interested to know what sort of "bubble" you work in.iainment said:
It's unsustainable then. What happens when the goodwill is exhausted?N01R4M said:@iainment I sincerely hope that if you have kids their teachers do not share your attitude! Because, believe me, schools would be unable to function without many hours of unpaid overtime done by the staff.
I am sure education is far from being unique (and I don't mean weird) in this respect, but it is a profession of which I have long experience, and can therefore speak with personal knowledge.
Fair pay for what is worked is not too much to ask for.
The vocation myth is just that and it relies on people accepting being lied to about their contracts and being exploited.
There are very few bosses who go above and beyond for their staff unless it helps their career. However there are loads of bosses who expect more than what is contracted for from their staff. Usually with scant recognition.
I worked over and beyond from the first day at work, until the day I retired.0
