Sterling was better than Rashford eventhough he did not have any goals to prove it. We never looked better once Rashford came on. Yes Sterling is so frustrating at times, but at least his movement off the ball is so dangerous it opens up channels for open play. That regular sub of Rashford for Sterling possibly cost England the game. Sterling certainly wasnt tired and im sure prob one of the fittest on the team. When England needed a goal the most Sterling was on the bench in this tournament. Playing with 10, the last minutes of the game in a semifinal, needing a goal and you have to question the substitutions. Sterling should have stayed on and maybe Rashford for Tripper once the injury came about ...
Chances like that to get to a World Cup Final come along once in a lifetime.
I think they happen more often than people think - 1990, Belgium and Cameroon before a difficult semi final, 2002 teams going out left, right and centre. Euro 2016 is another example, Portugal's side of the draw.
In the last 20-25 years teams like Sweden, Romania and Turkey have reached semis without playing anyone great.
Lopsided draws will happen more often in 24 team Euros and 48 team World Cups too.
I’m talking about England having the easiest route to a final ever imaginable, weak group , weak knock out opponents and a weak semi final opponent , we will never see that again .
You are extremely deluded if you think that Croatia are a weak team.
They are not a weak team, but relative to others they are not the strongest. That fact makes it hurt even more. I think we scored too early - This is a new system we are playing and some issues have become apparent in so far as we start strongly, invariably take the lead and then if we don't get a second, things can dry up at best. There will be lots of useful analysis done post this competition. And Saturday's game is not a nothing game - It is a game against strong opposition where we can find out even more about the system.
We missed him. Dier is good at stopping others but he's never going to create chances or drive the team forwards.
Massively. No surprise in the two games he's come off or changed position we have struggled.
And Sterling. 1-0 up against Colombia when he went off. 1-1 with Croatia when he went off.
Sterling's performance last night confirmed why he's been playing over Rashford!!
Whenever we had the ball at the back, the Croatian attack would harry us and ensure that we rushed our passes making sure we didnt have time on the ball and so forced us to lump it forwards - Sterling would do that at the other end of the pitch, staying on the shoulder of the Croatia back line which meant he was constantly running on to the ball
Rashford on the other hand didnt seem to run for the ball unless he knew he could get it and would always drop deep so rather making their defence chase after him, he dropped to get the ball which allowed the Centre-Backs to just sit deep and force him to try and get through them with the ball... Something that he (1) Couldnt do (2) Barely tried to do as in Extra Time he ran into the box with the ball, had an hand put on his chest and bloody stopped!!
Can't be true surely. Apparently they've only got 1 really good midfielder and the others are average. I read that on here from many posters so must be true.
It was the same with Columbia though - we suffocated both and things were looking good. When they push up and took more risks in their play we sit back a bit, things change. Cast your mind back to Tunisia - We could have scored four or five in the first half - scored one then chances dried up. Panama - we did score 5 but again the flowing football dried up. Columbia we prevented them having a chance before we scored, then allowed their midfield which was anonymous before that to dominate and they scored, Even Sweden, we relied on Pickford to keep our lead before Alli got a second and yesterday, we we so dominant in the first half but couldn't adapt to their tactical changes in the second. There has to be a lot of analysis that Southgate should look at from that lot!
Sessegnon and Foden must be in the next squad. Back to last night.
Plan A last night was to play long balls to utilize the pace of Sterling and show the weakness of the Croatian back line. So far so good BUT perversely the early goal from another set piece just made the opposition push forward more and even though Croatia were average first half the 20 back passes to Pickford showed a negativity when we should have been exposing the limitations of Lovren and co at the back. The 'coming home ' back fired big time when Croatia realized that Harry Kane wasn't sharp and Sterling and Lingard are profligate when they see the goal in an England shirt.
Semi finalist is a great leap forward But our weakness are still stark. When we play better sides like Croatia we are out passed over 90 or 120 minutes. From the start of the second half it felt a penalty shootout was our best chance of a result. John Stones who had a good tournament made two mistakes, one leading to a goal and one hitting the post.
Plan B was ? Well difficult because just like against Iceland the wheels still come off. Mental fatigue more than anything seem to affect English players.
A goal scoring attacking player to help Kane and a midfield ball player to make crisp passes when under pressure is needed.
We would have gone out to Brazil in the Quarters instead of the semi in this half.
Progress but a long way to go.
Foden has got to actually play in the first team (I mean properly play, 20+ starts in a season ) before we should throw him in.
We beat: Tunisia, Panama, Columbia, Sweden We lost to: Belgium, Croatia
All this proud of them stuff is a little bit grating. I love Gareth and like the players but at the end of the day we are a long long way off of competing with the best. This was the easiest route to a World Cup we will ever get and we didn’t take it.
We were fortunate the way the draw panned out for us and it shouldn't surprise anyone that we went out to the first decent side we played.
Still it was a great few weeks and everyone got behind the team again. If you look at many of the big international teams alot of their players are coming to the end of their careers. If we can find a some more quality in midfield the future is looking good
We beat: Tunisia, Panama, Columbia, Sweden We lost to: Belgium, Croatia
All this proud of them stuff is a little bit grating. I love Gareth and like the players but at the end of the day we are a long long way off of competing with the best. This was the easiest route to a World Cup we will ever get and we didn’t take it.
2018 we beat Tunisia, Panama, Sweden 2014 we beat no-one 2010 we beat Slovenia 2006 we beat Paraguay, Trinidad & Tobago, Ecuador 2002 we beat Argentina, Denmark 1998 we beat Tunisia, Colombia 1994 we didn't qualify 1990 we beat Egypt
2018 and 2006 are equal for most wins in 90 minutes for any England team of the last 30 years.
We might still be a long way off but in getting to the semi-final, we're a damn sight closer than we've been in a long time.
Sessegnon and Foden must be in the next squad. Back to last night.
Plan A last night was to play long balls to utilize the pace of Sterling and show the weakness of the Croatian back line. So far so good BUT perversely the early goal from another set piece just made the opposition push forward more and even though Croatia were average first half the 20 back passes to Pickford showed a negativity when we should have been exposing the limitations of Lovren and co at the back. The 'coming home ' back fired big time when Croatia realized that Harry Kane wasn't sharp and Sterling and Lingard are profligate when they see the goal in an England shirt.
Semi finalist is a great leap forward But our weakness are still stark. When we play better sides like Croatia we are out passed over 90 or 120 minutes. From the start of the second half it felt a penalty shootout was our best chance of a result. John Stones who had a good tournament made two mistakes, one leading to a goal and one hitting the post.
Plan B was ? Well difficult because just like against Iceland the wheels still come off. Mental fatigue more than anything seem to affect English players.
A goal scoring attacking player to help Kane and a midfield ball player to make crisp passes when under pressure is needed.
We would have gone out to Brazil in the Quarters instead of the semi in this half.
Progress but a long way to go.
Foden has got to actually play in the first team (I mean properly play, 20+ starts in a season ) before we should throw him in.
Foden's agent and advisors need to get him a seasons loan to one of the lesser teams in the premier or just like the 60 players that have Chelsea as a parent club will join the lost list of Young players who disappear. Fulham would be a good move alongside Sessegnon.
Pickford Trippier New LB Gomez Stones Maguire Henderson New CM (Winks?) Lingard New Attacking Mid / Or the Man City version of Sterling Kane
We need an English version of Modric/Pirlo if we are to get anywhere - I suspect the nearest we have at present is Jonjo Shelvey.
Is why we have to hope that Phil Foden or Mason Mount get their chances at Man City and Chelsea respectively as they're probably the best young kids coming through for England in that sort of position
The problem is we dont seem to have another Goalscorer coming through who can take the pressure off Kane; Tammy Abraham and Dominic Solanke have been tipped to set the world alight yet neither appear to have done so and I still dont rate Rashford as our next big hope
Agree re: Rashford. I think he's good, could be very good, but nothing much more. But to be fair to him he's still very young. I just feel with him people remember the really special moments of skill, but forget that he's prone to also being completely anonymous and not having much of an end product. Nothing that can't improve with age, I just think he's overrated for where he is right now.
Regarding goalscorers, Harry Kane is only 25 in a couple weeks. And importantly, he's not a Wayne Rooney 25, he seems to be a really excellent athlete. Sterling is not clinical, but I also think that if he continues playing the way he did in the World Cup, that 2 goals in 40-odd games streak won't last. And we know he's a confidence player who once he gets one can get five. Alli, if his game continues to improve, can contribute goals from midfield, as can Lingard--who may not be the best long term option but his quickness and movement make him a good candidate for an impact sub.
From what I've seen of him I wouldn't describe Solanke as a pure finisher, more of an all around forward, but he's got everything in his locker, and this past season was his first in senior football I believe. Abraham had 20-odd goals for Bristol and then struggled in a Swansea side that struggled to create chances. What I've seen of him I wouldn't describe him as clinical either, but he is so quick and strong that I could see him developing into a real deadly goal threat.
And then yeah, agree about Folden and Mount. It's been a long time since England had a consistent central, playmaker who was capable of unlocking defenses at international level. And I think both have the potential to be that, keeping in mind they're 18 and I think should be considered for Qatar more than 2020. Wilshere, McEachran (whose younger brother looks quite tidy as well), Henderson, Ward-Prowse have all shown some promise in that role at that age, to varying degrees, and I think the little I've seen of Mount and the more I've seen of Foden they have as much potential as any of the above.
The thing that worries me about such players is that English football doesn't really have a tradition of developing the deep-lying playmaker. I think that's getting better, I think Chelsea and City have the kind of joined-up thinking to be mindful of that. But it's always a worry of mine that there just aren't enough coaches who know how to coach that role, that the tempo of the English game doesn't always suit that role, that when they go out on loan they'll just be played either as a box-to-box midfielder or a 10, and then get kicked up in the air by lower league center halves and journeyman central midfielders.
It's better now than it was. I think if he were 18 now Michael Carrick would end up with far more than 34 caps (!!!!) over a 14 year international career (some of that is injury, a lot of that is not knowing how to use him). How this group turns out (in general, not just in that position) over the next 4-5 years will be a good barometer for where English coaching is at the top levels at least.
We missed him. Dier is good at stopping others but he's never going to create chances or drive the team forwards.
Massively. No surprise in the two games he's come off or changed position we have struggled.
And Sterling. 1-0 up against Colombia when he went off. 1-1 with Croatia when he went off.
Sterling's performance last night confirmed why he's been playing over Rashford!!
Whenever we had the ball at the back, the Croatian attack would harry us and ensure that we rushed our passes making sure we didnt have time on the ball and so forced us to lump it forwards - Sterling would do that at the other end of the pitch, staying on the shoulder of the Croatia back line which meant he was constantly running on to the ball
Rashford on the other hand didnt seem to run for the ball unless he knew he could get it and would always drop deep so rather making their defence chase after him, he dropped to get the ball which allowed the Centre-Backs to just sit deep and force him to try and get through them with the ball... Something that he (1) Couldnt do (2) Barely tried to do as in Extra Time he ran into the box with the ball, had an hand put on his chest and bloody stopped!!
Can't be true surely. Apparently they've only got 1 really good midfielder and the others are average. I read that on here from many posters so must be true.
Indeed. Their midfield and forward line were all starters for: Inter, Barca, Real; Inter, Frankfurt, Juve. The one 'weak' link were top 4 most of the season in Germany.
That's a heck of an impressive line up, nevermind that they're more experienced than most of England's team.
We beat: Tunisia, Panama, Columbia, Sweden We lost to: Belgium, Croatia
All this proud of them stuff is a little bit grating. I love Gareth and like the players but at the end of the day we are a long long way off of competing with the best. This was the easiest route to a World Cup we will ever get and we didn’t take it.
But I feel like the answer is contained within your question. England are a side good enough to beat teams at and below their level, which, as Callum points out, is a big improvement on the last 10 years. England are just not good enough to beat a team who have better, more experienced players than they do.
Before the game I described Croatia as sleepwalking through the tournament. Against Argentina, and in little moments in their other games, they'd show their class, and then have long stretches where they were thoroughly mediocre. But it was clear they had another gear or two to go up, and unfortunately last night, after the 25-30 minute mark, and especially in the second half, they gelled. I think England made some tactical mistakes, I think at times a lack of experience showed, I think the lack of a playmaker is and has been a problem for a long time, but none of that negates that Croatia were the better side on the night. And I don't really understand how it's worse to go out to them in a Semi-Final, as opposed to a Quarterfinal or Round of 16 where you might otherwise meet them, apart from the fact that hope had more time to build because it was the semi.
Something I've been thinking about a lot is, how many of the England players would you describe as being in the top five most important players at their clubs? Kane. Probably Pickford. Vardy. I think that's about it. Even extending that list out to top ten you'd probably add Alli, Maguire, Henderson, Trippier (just). Obviously this is subjective, but the point I'm trying to make is that in the past with England a lot of people have said "oh look at these players winning all these trophies with their clubs" never fully appreciate the role those players played in winning those trophies. I think it's good to take stock of where this group is right now, and the answer is that they're at big clubs in part because they're English and English players are at a premium, and in part because they have big upsides, but they're not the vital players at their clubs.
We beat: Tunisia, Panama, Columbia, Sweden We lost to: Belgium, Croatia
All this proud of them stuff is a little bit grating. I love Gareth and like the players but at the end of the day we are a long long way off of competing with the best. This was the easiest route to a World Cup we will ever get and we didn’t take it.
2018 we beat Tunisia, Panama, Sweden 2014 we beat no-one 2010 we beat Slovenia 2006 we beat Paraguay, Trinidad & Tobago, Ecuador 2002 we beat Argentina, Denmark 1998 we beat Tunisia, Colombia 1994 we didn't qualify 1990 we beat Egypt
2018 and 2006 are equal for most wins in 90 minutes for any England team of the last 30 years.
We might still be a long way off but in getting to the semi-final, we're a damn sight closer than we've been in a long time.
How could you forget Colombia in 2018 @callumcafc? Ah, just realise you mean in 90 mins.
We missed him. Dier is good at stopping others but he's never going to create chances or drive the team forwards.
Massively. No surprise in the two games he's come off or changed position we have struggled.
And Sterling. 1-0 up against Colombia when he went off. 1-1 with Croatia when he went off.
Sterling's performance last night confirmed why he's been playing over Rashford!!
Whenever we had the ball at the back, the Croatian attack would harry us and ensure that we rushed our passes making sure we didnt have time on the ball and so forced us to lump it forwards - Sterling would do that at the other end of the pitch, staying on the shoulder of the Croatia back line which meant he was constantly running on to the ball
Rashford on the other hand didnt seem to run for the ball unless he knew he could get it and would always drop deep so rather making their defence chase after him, he dropped to get the ball which allowed the Centre-Backs to just sit deep and force him to try and get through them with the ball... Something that he (1) Couldnt do (2) Barely tried to do as in Extra Time he ran into the box with the ball, had an hand put on his chest and bloody stopped!!
Can't be true surely. Apparently they've only got 1 really good midfielder and the others are average. I read that on here from many posters so must be true.
Indeed. Their midfield and forward line were all starters for: Inter, Barca, Real; Inter, Frankfurt, Juve. The one 'weak' link were top 4 most of the season in Germany.
That's a heck of an impressive line up, nevermind that they're more experienced than most of England's team.
Bang on. And the 2-3 times I saw Frankfurt play Rebic was an incredibly important player for them. He's an absolute recking ball of a player, in a good and bad way.
With the benefit of a couple of days reflection, you can probably summarise our failings down to a couple of key areas:
1) Lack of impact off the bench - none of our subs ever made an impact (in fact generally made things worse).
2) Over the course of the six games, Lingaard and Ali never contributed enough in midfield, and helping with possession of the ball - both good squad players, but need to find others - would have been good to have the Ox available, and will be interesting to see how the likes of Foden at City, and Cairney at Fulham progress this season.
3) Not enough punch up front - Kane did well generally, but we didn't create enough for him. Sterling makes a good contribution, but across five games there were no goals and no assists - for a striker that isn't good enough.
4) Ball retention under pressure, lack of composure and basic technique, meant that we kept going backwards, when we should have kept trying to move the ball forward and play in their half - look at how France defended against Belgium - barely gave them a sniff, and didn't camp out on the 18 yard line.
5) Tactical inflexibility - probably should have changed things in that second half, and moved Sterling/Rashford across to the left hand side to halt the runs of Slaljko - missed a trick there.
Generally we have taken a big step forward, but are probably only 40% of the way to becoming a major football nation again - the next step will be to improve performances (not just results), by introducing some of the outstanding young players we have coming through.
Those stats don't change The fact that we could and should have been 3 up at half time.
For the first time in my life I'm immensly proud of our performance at a tournament, we were so close to making the final, no matter what the stats say.
I think it is a new system and give Southgate immense credit for that. Some issues have been highlighted which suggests when opponents change their approach within a game we need to alter things. Fair enough, Southgate can refine it based on that. He can start looking at this on Saturday!
Top for set piece goals but only five of the 32 teams created fewer from open play. Whilst our style of play is totally different, a certain Wimbledon of the 80s would have had similar stats.
The biggest change and I was a not a fan at first at all
Is Southgate
If the only way we have moved on is that we have a manager who is all about the country and his players above himself and the out side schenanigans of being England Mgr then we have made huge steps
For the first time since Sir Bobby we have a family man a man of morals and values , someone who is principled and that means more about what it is to be English
Comments
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/44811549
We lost to: Belgium, Croatia
All this proud of them stuff is a little bit grating. I love Gareth and like the players but at the end of the day we are a long long way off of competing with the best. This was the easiest route to a World Cup we will ever get and we didn’t take it.
Still it was a great few weeks and everyone got behind the team again. If you look at many of the big international teams alot of their players are coming to the end of their careers. If we can find a some more quality in midfield the future is looking good
2014 we beat no-one
2010 we beat Slovenia
2006 we beat Paraguay, Trinidad & Tobago, Ecuador
2002 we beat Argentina, Denmark
1998 we beat Tunisia, Colombia
1994 we didn't qualify
1990 we beat Egypt
2018 and 2006 are equal for most wins in 90 minutes for any England team of the last 30 years.
We might still be a long way off but in getting to the semi-final, we're a damn sight closer than we've been in a long time.
Fulham would be a good move alongside Sessegnon.
Regarding goalscorers, Harry Kane is only 25 in a couple weeks. And importantly, he's not a Wayne Rooney 25, he seems to be a really excellent athlete. Sterling is not clinical, but I also think that if he continues playing the way he did in the World Cup, that 2 goals in 40-odd games streak won't last. And we know he's a confidence player who once he gets one can get five. Alli, if his game continues to improve, can contribute goals from midfield, as can Lingard--who may not be the best long term option but his quickness and movement make him a good candidate for an impact sub.
From what I've seen of him I wouldn't describe Solanke as a pure finisher, more of an all around forward, but he's got everything in his locker, and this past season was his first in senior football I believe. Abraham had 20-odd goals for Bristol and then struggled in a Swansea side that struggled to create chances. What I've seen of him I wouldn't describe him as clinical either, but he is so quick and strong that I could see him developing into a real deadly goal threat.
And then yeah, agree about Folden and Mount. It's been a long time since England had a consistent central, playmaker who was capable of unlocking defenses at international level. And I think both have the potential to be that, keeping in mind they're 18 and I think should be considered for Qatar more than 2020. Wilshere, McEachran (whose younger brother looks quite tidy as well), Henderson, Ward-Prowse have all shown some promise in that role at that age, to varying degrees, and I think the little I've seen of Mount and the more I've seen of Foden they have as much potential as any of the above.
The thing that worries me about such players is that English football doesn't really have a tradition of developing the deep-lying playmaker. I think that's getting better, I think Chelsea and City have the kind of joined-up thinking to be mindful of that. But it's always a worry of mine that there just aren't enough coaches who know how to coach that role, that the tempo of the English game doesn't always suit that role, that when they go out on loan they'll just be played either as a box-to-box midfielder or a 10, and then get kicked up in the air by lower league center halves and journeyman central midfielders.
It's better now than it was. I think if he were 18 now Michael Carrick would end up with far more than 34 caps (!!!!) over a 14 year international career (some of that is injury, a lot of that is not knowing how to use him). How this group turns out (in general, not just in that position) over the next 4-5 years will be a good barometer for where English coaching is at the top levels at least.
That's a heck of an impressive line up, nevermind that they're more experienced than most of England's team.
Before the game I described Croatia as sleepwalking through the tournament. Against Argentina, and in little moments in their other games, they'd show their class, and then have long stretches where they were thoroughly mediocre. But it was clear they had another gear or two to go up, and unfortunately last night, after the 25-30 minute mark, and especially in the second half, they gelled. I think England made some tactical mistakes, I think at times a lack of experience showed, I think the lack of a playmaker is and has been a problem for a long time, but none of that negates that Croatia were the better side on the night. And I don't really understand how it's worse to go out to them in a Semi-Final, as opposed to a Quarterfinal or Round of 16 where you might otherwise meet them, apart from the fact that hope had more time to build because it was the semi.
Something I've been thinking about a lot is, how many of the England players would you describe as being in the top five most important players at their clubs? Kane. Probably Pickford. Vardy. I think that's about it. Even extending that list out to top ten you'd probably add Alli, Maguire, Henderson, Trippier (just). Obviously this is subjective, but the point I'm trying to make is that in the past with England a lot of people have said "oh look at these players winning all these trophies with their clubs" never fully appreciate the role those players played in winning those trophies. I think it's good to take stock of where this group is right now, and the answer is that they're at big clubs in part because they're English and English players are at a premium, and in part because they have big upsides, but they're not the vital players at their clubs.
1) Lack of impact off the bench - none of our subs ever made an impact (in fact generally made things worse).
2) Over the course of the six games, Lingaard and Ali never contributed enough in midfield, and helping with possession of the ball - both good squad players, but need to find others - would have been good to have the Ox available, and will be interesting to see how the likes of Foden at City, and Cairney at Fulham progress this season.
3) Not enough punch up front - Kane did well generally, but we didn't create enough for him. Sterling makes a good contribution, but across five games there were no goals and no assists - for a striker that isn't good enough.
4) Ball retention under pressure, lack of composure and basic technique, meant that we kept going backwards, when we should have kept trying to move the ball forward and play in their half - look at how France defended against Belgium - barely gave them a sniff, and didn't camp out on the 18 yard line.
5) Tactical inflexibility - probably should have changed things in that second half, and moved Sterling/Rashford across to the left hand side to halt the runs of Slaljko - missed a trick there.
Generally we have taken a big step forward, but are probably only 40% of the way to becoming a major football nation again - the next step will be to improve performances (not just results), by introducing some of the outstanding young players we have coming through.
Here's the xG map below... dots with a yellow ring are shots that resulted in a goal.
By half time in extra time, Croatia had increased their tally to 1.47 (Mandzukic foiled by Pickford from close range) while England were only at 0.73.
After 120 minutes, Croatia had reached 2.09 (Pickford unable to deny Mandzukic this time) and England were static at 0.73.
(xG is the future of football stats. FACT)
For the first time in my life I'm immensly proud of our performance at a tournament, we were so close to making the final, no matter what the stats say.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/44808192
Is Southgate
If the only way we have moved on is that we have a manager who is all about the country and his players above himself and the out side schenanigans of being England Mgr then we have made huge steps
For the first time since Sir Bobby we have a family man a man of morals and values , someone who is principled and that means more about what it is to be English