Happy St George's Day everyone from behind enemy lines -
There are 2 people in this world, you've got the English and then you've got those who want to be English.
I make 'the English' and 'those' add up to more than two. In another world there are plenty who accept the pure accident of their birth with good grace.
But the values and principles by which a nation is run and perceived is nothing to do with accident.
England wasn't just mystically created with the culture it has overnight. And I for one am proud to be an Englishman who contributes to helping those values along the same way many other Englishman should.
What this country has achieved and what it stands for is bloody impressive for its size.
And that's no accident mate!
Is there any difference between 'English' values and principles and those of many other nations? You are right to say that a culture isn't created overnight, however for some of the things people admire that created the culture like Shakespeare, or the industrial revolution, there are also less admirable building blocks of Englishness like Slavery and the Daily Mail.
Ok. So that doesn't mean we shouldn't celebrate the things that are great about this country. And despite what a lot of glass half full types will tell you, the positives definitely outweigh the negatives.
I have not suggested that people shouldn't celebrate. As you say there are both positives and negatives, anybody can speculate on the proportions of those elements both in England and in many other countries. For many the country that provided the accident of their birth feels like it is the best or greatest, and it is nice to feel positive about such stuff.
Happy St George's Day everyone from behind enemy lines -
There are 2 people in this world, you've got the English and then you've got those who want to be English.
I make 'the English' and 'those' add up to more than two. In another world there are plenty who accept the pure accident of their birth with good grace.
But the values and principles by which a nation is run and perceived is nothing to do with accident.
England wasn't just mystically created with the culture it has overnight. And I for one am proud to be an Englishman who contributes to helping those values along the same way many other Englishman should.
What this country has achieved and what it stands for is bloody impressive for its size.
And that's no accident mate!
Is there any difference between 'English' values and principles and those of many other nations? You are right to say that a culture isn't created overnight, however for some of the things people admire that created the culture like Shakespeare, or the industrial revolution, there are also less admirable building blocks of Englishness like Slavery and the Daily Mail.
Can you tell us about any of these other countries that share the same values and principles as us?
Every country has its positives and negatives throughout history, it's unavoidable.
The individual people in every country share the same values and principles in the main, the systems of government and societal structures are the things that vary. There is an old saying that people are people everywhere, or that there is good and bad everywhere. In western Europe most of the values and principles can be traced back to Ancient Greece.
Happy St George's Day everyone from behind enemy lines -
There are 2 people in this world, you've got the English and then you've got those who want to be English.
I make 'the English' and 'those' add up to more than two. In another world there are plenty who accept the pure accident of their birth with good grace.
But the values and principles by which a nation is run and perceived is nothing to do with accident.
England wasn't just mystically created with the culture it has overnight. And I for one am proud to be an Englishman who contributes to helping those values along the same way many other Englishman should.
What this country has achieved and what it stands for is bloody impressive for its size.
And that's no accident mate!
Is there any difference between 'English' values and principles and those of many other nations? You are right to say that a culture isn't created overnight, however for some of the things people admire that created the culture like Shakespeare, or the industrial revolution, there are also less admirable building blocks of Englishness like Slavery and the Daily Mail.
Can you tell us about any of these other countries that share the same values and principles as us?
Every country has its positives and negatives throughout history, it's unavoidable.
The individual people in every country share the same values and principles in the main, the systems of government and societal structures are the things that vary. There is an old saying that people are people everywhere, or that there is good and bad everywhere. In western Europe most of the values and principles can be traced back to Ancient Greece.
This post makes me believe you've never actually left the uk. The idea that individuals in every country share the same values might be the most ridiculous thing you've ever posted.
Happy St George's Day everyone from behind enemy lines -
There are 2 people in this world, you've got the English and then you've got those who want to be English.
I make 'the English' and 'those' add up to more than two. In another world there are plenty who accept the pure accident of their birth with good grace.
But the values and principles by which a nation is run and perceived is nothing to do with accident.
England wasn't just mystically created with the culture it has overnight. And I for one am proud to be an Englishman who contributes to helping those values along the same way many other Englishman should.
What this country has achieved and what it stands for is bloody impressive for its size.
And that's no accident mate!
Is there any difference between 'English' values and principles and those of many other nations? You are right to say that a culture isn't created overnight, however for some of the things people admire that created the culture like Shakespeare, or the industrial revolution, there are also less admirable building blocks of Englishness like Slavery and the Daily Mail.
Can you tell us about any of these other countries that share the same values and principles as us?
Every country has its positives and negatives throughout history, it's unavoidable.
The individual people in every country share the same values and principles in the main, the systems of government and societal structures are the things that vary. There is an old saying that people are people everywhere, or that there is good and bad everywhere. In western Europe most of the values and principles can be traced back to Ancient Greece.
This post makes me believe you've never actually left the uk. The idea that individuals in every country share the same values might be the most ridiculous thing you've ever posted.
You miss my point entirely, as I said 'in the main' didn't I? I do think that within communities for individuals the understanding of love and care and family values and loyalty to one's own kin is something people share across the planet. If that is a ridiculous concept to you I can't help you. In terms of never leaving the UK, well China is somewhere I have been, a place you know well, and folk caring for their kin is no different there than it is here in my experience.
Happy St George's Day everyone from behind enemy lines -
There are 2 people in this world, you've got the English and then you've got those who want to be English.
I make 'the English' and 'those' add up to more than two. In another world there are plenty who accept the pure accident of their birth with good grace.
But the values and principles by which a nation is run and perceived is nothing to do with accident.
England wasn't just mystically created with the culture it has overnight. And I for one am proud to be an Englishman who contributes to helping those values along the same way many other Englishman should.
What this country has achieved and what it stands for is bloody impressive for its size.
And that's no accident mate!
Is there any difference between 'English' values and principles and those of many other nations? You are right to say that a culture isn't created overnight, however for some of the things people admire that created the culture like Shakespeare, or the industrial revolution, there are also less admirable building blocks of Englishness like Slavery and the Daily Mail.
Can you tell us about any of these other countries that share the same values and principles as us?
Every country has its positives and negatives throughout history, it's unavoidable.
The individual people in every country share the same values and principles in the main, the systems of government and societal structures are the things that vary. There is an old saying that people are people everywhere, or that there is good and bad everywhere. In western Europe most of the values and principles can be traced back to Ancient Greece.
This post makes me believe you've never actually left the uk. The idea that individuals in every country share the same values might be the most ridiculous thing you've ever posted.
You miss my point entirely, as I said 'in the main' didn't I? I do think that within communities for individuals the understanding of love and care and family values and loyalty to one's own kin is something people share across the planet. If that is a ridiculous concept to you I can't help you. In terms of never leaving the UK, well China is somewhere I have been, a place you know well, and folk caring for their kin is no different there than it is here in my experience.
It's illegal in China for a doctor to tell you what sex your baby will be due to so many people aborting unwanted females. I'd say say that's pretty different.
Openly beating children for misbehavior is still perfectly acceptable. I'd say that's pretty different.
We are not all the same and I for one am very thankful for where I was born and the values that has ingrained within me.
Happy St George's Day everyone from behind enemy lines -
There are 2 people in this world, you've got the English and then you've got those who want to be English.
I make 'the English' and 'those' add up to more than two. In another world there are plenty who accept the pure accident of their birth with good grace.
But the values and principles by which a nation is run and perceived is nothing to do with accident.
England wasn't just mystically created with the culture it has overnight. And I for one am proud to be an Englishman who contributes to helping those values along the same way many other Englishman should.
What this country has achieved and what it stands for is bloody impressive for its size.
And that's no accident mate!
Is there any difference between 'English' values and principles and those of many other nations? You are right to say that a culture isn't created overnight, however for some of the things people admire that created the culture like Shakespeare, or the industrial revolution, there are also less admirable building blocks of Englishness like Slavery and the Daily Mail.
Hmm. I hope you don't take what I say as too much of a dig here Seth.
As you know, I'm immensely proud of my own Chinese heritage. There are many wonderful things to celebrate about this. Equally, there are many pretty shit things, like Mao, the human rights records, censorship, and so on.
The same goes for England. And this - having been a thread about St George's Day, and about English patriotism that (with one exception I shall address) has been a positive celebration of Englishness - probably isn't the right place for whataboutism, if that makes sense.
Will it be okay to remind the Irish that leprechauns don't really exist, St Patrick was a Brit and the founder of Guinness was against Irish home rule then, next March?
Used to love the Gravesham St George's Day procession, with different colours and cultures celebrating our Nation Day
Whatever makes you happy hun
A nice lamb roast with mint sauce, seeing as you're arksin
Well i was answering, but I'm sure many will appreciate your little insight there
Oh right, sorry to mess you around Candypants, it was more of a rhetorical question though, as I would only go on a St Patrick's Day thread, to wish people a good day, if at all.
I agree. It's so weird to drag up random countries when a thread is clearly for wishing others a very good day
And here's my addressing as I said earlier - the dragging up of other countries.
Someone did it above in relation to the IRA and everything. Why? Of course it was an unforgivable act of terrorism, but on a thread like this? Turns (some might say) needlessly political.
'He would have been 464 years old today, so happy birthday that isn't to, William Shakespeare, seller of over 4 billion copies of his work, countless productions of his plays, and a man who is still able to be the generator of income for so many. A huge influence on the world, used by stupid teachers to bore schoolkids, but by clever and creative teachers to inspire them.'
'He would have been 464 years old today, so happy birthday that isn't to, William Shakespeare, seller of over 4 billion copies of his work, countless productions of his plays, and a man who is still able to be the generator of income for so many. A huge influence on the world, used by stupid teachers to bore schoolkids, but by clever and creative teachers to inspire them.'
Seems like a wholly positive contribution to me.
And it certainly is.
But why, then, bring up things like slavery and thereby - in a roundabout way - diminish "English values"?
'He would have been 464 years old today, so happy birthday that isn't to, William Shakespeare, seller of over 4 billion copies of his work, countless productions of his plays, and a man who is still able to be the generator of income for so many. A huge influence on the world, used by stupid teachers to bore schoolkids, but by clever and creative teachers to inspire them.'
Seems like a wholly positive contribution to me.
And it certainly is.
But why, then, bring up things like slavery and thereby - in a roundabout way - diminish "English values"?
Because you have to consider things, as that enigma of an English man Oliver Cromwell said, warts and all.
'He would have been 464 years old today, so happy birthday that isn't to, William Shakespeare, seller of over 4 billion copies of his work, countless productions of his plays, and a man who is still able to be the generator of income for so many. A huge influence on the world, used by stupid teachers to bore schoolkids, but by clever and creative teachers to inspire them.'
Seems like a wholly positive contribution to me.
And it certainly is.
But why, then, bring up things like slavery and thereby - in a roundabout way - diminish "English values"?
I mentioned Shakespeare and the industrial revolution as things to admire, and slavery and the Daily Mail as more questionable. The why is well expressed by @iainment above. The English are English, it is an accident of birth that one may call oneself English, but it doesn't make the English wholly and objectively 'better' than anybody, they are what they are with positives and negatives. The great Athenian Socrates is reported to have said that an unexamined life is one not worth living, and the 'my country right or wrong' Englishness can be tempered with a bit of realism, otherwise the Emperor really has no clothes.
'He would have been 464 years old today, so happy birthday that isn't to, William Shakespeare, seller of over 4 billion copies of his work, countless productions of his plays, and a man who is still able to be the generator of income for so many. A huge influence on the world, used by stupid teachers to bore schoolkids, but by clever and creative teachers to inspire them.'
Seems like a wholly positive contribution to me.
And it certainly is.
But why, then, bring up things like slavery and thereby - in a roundabout way - diminish "English values"?
I mentioned Shakespeare and the industrial revolution as things to admire, and slavery and the Daily Mail as more questionable. The why is well expressed by @iainment above. The English are English, it is an accident of birth that one may call oneself English, but it doesn't make the English wholly and objectively 'better' than anybody, they are what they are with positives and negatives. The great Athenian Socrates is reported to have said that an unexamined life is one not worth living, and the 'my country right or wrong' Englishness can be tempered with a bit of realism, otherwise the Emperor really has no clothes.
Comments
As you say there are both positives and negatives, anybody can speculate on the proportions of those elements both in England and in many other countries. For many the country that provided the accident of their birth feels like it is the best or greatest, and it is nice to feel positive about such stuff.
There is an old saying that people are people everywhere, or that there is good and bad everywhere.
In western Europe most of the values and principles can be traced back to Ancient Greece.
I do think that within communities for individuals the understanding of love and care and family values and loyalty to one's own kin is something people share across the planet.
If that is a ridiculous concept to you I can't help you.
In terms of never leaving the UK, well China is somewhere I have been, a place you know well, and folk caring for their kin is no different there than it is here in my experience.
Openly beating children for misbehavior is still perfectly acceptable. I'd say that's pretty different.
We are not all the same and I for one am very thankful for where I was born and the values that has ingrained within me.
As you know, I'm immensely proud of my own Chinese heritage. There are many wonderful things to celebrate about this. Equally, there are many pretty shit things, like Mao, the human rights records, censorship, and so on.
The same goes for England. And this - having been a thread about St George's Day, and about English patriotism that (with one exception I shall address) has been a positive celebration of Englishness - probably isn't the right place for whataboutism, if that makes sense.
Someone did it above in relation to the IRA and everything. Why? Of course it was an unforgivable act of terrorism, but on a thread like this? Turns (some might say) needlessly political.
'He would have been 464 years old today, so happy birthday that isn't to, William Shakespeare, seller of over 4 billion copies of his work, countless productions of his plays, and a man who is still able to be the generator of income for so many.
A huge influence on the world, used by stupid teachers to bore schoolkids, but by clever and creative teachers to inspire them.'
Seems like a wholly positive contribution to me.
But why, then, bring up things like slavery and thereby - in a roundabout way - diminish "English values"?
The why is well expressed by @iainment above. The English are English, it is an accident of birth that one may call oneself English, but it doesn't make the English wholly and objectively 'better' than anybody, they are what they are with positives and negatives. The great Athenian Socrates is reported to have said that an unexamined life is one not worth living, and the 'my country right or wrong' Englishness can be tempered with a bit of realism, otherwise the Emperor really has no clothes.
Then again:
As, IMHO, would PG Wodehouse.
Mind you, I'm odd (at least in Ireland), because I don't consider Cromwell a monster.