For me at present Kashi is looking busy but doing fuck all, many times he receives the ball and then passes it straight back all this does is slow the game down and allows the opposition time to regroup. There is a player in there no doubt but right now he is a negative factor and needs either a word in the ear or dropping. Being a holding midfielder doesn't mean you never look forward just look at Kane at Chelsea if you want to know how it should be done.
What I believe is meant to be happening is Kashi comes back to dictate the play from a deep lying position. This allows our two full backs to push forward and our wide midfielders to tuck in and support the number 10 and number 9. It should look something like this:
X —— X ———— X —— X X ———— X ———— X —X —— X —— X— X
But what instead is happening is that Kashi is dropping so far back to collect the ball because we don’t have much movement going forward, we are 15 yards further back than we should be and we are also very cautious as to being exposed in the wide areas. This means that we look massively outnumbered in midfield as it seems as though the centre midfielder is the only one we have. This actually means we find it difficult to dominate and dictate the play meaning we have a lot of sideways passes and backwards play before we hit long to Magennis in hope of getting the second ball to the three behind him. From there we burst into life a little bit and look more dangerous. Ultimately, it’s not working too well at the moment, but when it does work, it allows us to be expansive and overload in attacking areas.
Please can you explain this to Karl, either at Sparrows Lane or in the car park prior to Tuesday's Checkatrade extravaganza.
I agree with the OP & find what Kashi is told to do infuriating. It adds less than zilch & makes our build up ridiculously slow and predictable. One defensive midfielder is adequate, whether it's Kashi or JFC.
Totally agree with this thread everything that been said, Kashi created nothing, tackled no one, did not make a decisive forward pass and barely even looked at Aribo! If instructed to play that deep utterly bizarre, if doing it by himself should be dropped!
Oldham didn't press up high up the pitch in the way other teams have.
They kept a very tight shape in their own half and let has pass it around the back without much closing down.
Neither Bauer or Lennon are comfortable on the ball or great at passing it (the only area where Sarr is better than them) so it to often came back to Kashi and the cycle repeated.
We miss Clarke and JFC's movement and tight control which helped us move the ball up the pitch quickly. Clarke/JFC could then pick out Holmes and Fosu.
Kashi is a destroyer not a creator. Aribo is a talent but very raw and not yet a capable as Clarke or JFC. He works hard and is 100x better than Reeves at present but not sure he is comfortable in the role he has yet.
Totally agree with this thread everything that been said, Kashi created nothing, tackled no one, did not make a decisive forward pass and barely even looked at Aribo! If instructed to play that deep utterly bizarre, if doing it by himself should be dropped!
He won a number of balls...especially in the first half. Aribo didn't win much at all.
Id say he's been told to play that deep. If he hadn't, then I'm fairly sure we would have seen Robinson or Bowyer screaming at him by now and Amos wouldn't keep rolling him the ball.
4-5-1 is possibly keeping Kashi fit enough to play (less running) but 4-4-2 suits his style of play better. I remember him tackling QPR and Hull players all over the pitch in a 4-4-2 and (I think) playing a long diagonal for Makienok to head across for JBG's late winner v Hull. 2nd half v Gills he played much higher up and looked good.
Oldham didn't press up high up the pitch in the way other teams have.
They kept a very tight shape in their own half and let has pass it around the back without much closing down.
Neither Bauer or Lennon are comfortable on the ball or great at passing it (the only area where Sarr is better than them) so it to often came back to Kashi and the cycle repeated.
We miss Clarke and JFC's movement and tight control which helped us move the ball up the pitch quickly. Clarke/JFC could then pick out Holmes and Fosu.
Kashi is a destroyer not a creator. Aribo is a talent but very raw and not yet a capable as Clarke or JFC. He works hard and is 100x better than Reeves at present but not sure he is comfortable in the role he has yet.
This. The lack of movement ahead of him was a huge problem. Without JFC in particular, and Clarke, and an in form Reeves, we don't have anyone who is brave enough to pick the ball up in very tight confines, forcing Kashi or the center backs to play it wide.
Also, against really tightly packed teams who sit deep is where a lot of possession-based teams struggle.
If you really are a coach, and I don't mean this to be sarcastic or mean, but can I recommend you do some more reading?
Here are some Jonathan Wilson articles. The first explains the evolution of 4-2-3-1. The next explain "The Kashi Role," or moreso "The Busquets Role" or even the modern Libero.
Oldham didn't press up high up the pitch in the way other teams have.
They kept a very tight shape in their own half and let has pass it around the back without much closing down.
Neither Bauer or Lennon are comfortable on the ball or great at passing it (the only area where Sarr is better than them) so it to often came back to Kashi and the cycle repeated.
We miss Clarke and JFC's movement and tight control which helped us move the ball up the pitch quickly. Clarke/JFC could then pick out Holmes and Fosu.
Kashi is a destroyer not a creator. Aribo is a talent but very raw and not yet a capable as Clarke or JFC. He works hard and is 100x better than Reeves at present but not sure he is comfortable in the role he has yet.
This. The lack of movement ahead of him was a huge problem. Without JFC in particular, and Clarke, and an in form Reeves, we don't have anyone who is brave enough to pick the ball up in very tight confines, forcing Kashi or the center backs to play it wide.
Also, against really tightly packed teams who sit deep is where a lot of possession-based teams struggle.
If you really are a coach, and I don't mean this to be sarcastic or mean, but can I recommend you do some more reading?
Here are some Jonathan Wilson articles. The first explains the evolution of 4-2-3-1. The next explain "The Kashi Role," or moreso "The Busquets Role" or even the modern Libero.
The question i asked is why he comes into his own box to pick a 5yd pass and then do a 10 yd pass that the keeper could do making the pitch smaller. Covering 40yds back and fourth doing so.
If someone could tell me the sense in that I'm intrigued.
SD, again not being sarcastic but have you watched him do this role, it's so fecking frustrating.
Kashi was integral to the way Robinson likes to play and was very effective earlier in the season. He likes to build play from the back with slick passing football. It looks great and works well when the team is playing well and full of confidence. But recently confidence has gone and the tempo and movement has dropped. The opposition now has no problem blocking any advance as they have so much time to organise. Kashi is far better than he currently looks and is more than capable of playing killer through balls and shooting from range as we saw at Peterborough in the cup.
The thread title is meant to be about the role that Robinson has bought into the team not the players ability.
Do you remember the game at home to Brighton where they thumped us? Kishishev did the same thing every time. It allows the CBs to go slightly wider and the full backs to push up more, and pull the opposition out of position creating space for the attacking players to operate. That's the logic behind it, the problem is our players are exhausted as they have to play every game they're available for due to our lack of squad depth, resulting in a lack of movement and failure to exploit the space. Also, KR doesn't seem to be that good of a tactical coach to get the best out of the players.
btw, whats happened to the beard, Beardface?
@The_President it's still on my face.... what did you think had happened to it?
The thread title is meant to be about the role that Robinson has bought into the team not the players ability.
Do you remember the game at home to Brighton where they thumped us? Kishishev did the same thing every time. It allows the CBs to go slightly wider and the full backs to push up more, and pull the opposition out of position creating space for the attacking players to operate. That's the logic behind it, the problem is our players are exhausted as they have to play every game they're available for due to our lack of squad depth, resulting in a lack of movement and failure to exploit the space. Also, KR doesn't seem to be that good of a tactical coach to get the best out of the players.
btw, whats happened to the beard, Beardface?
@The_President it's still on my face.... what did you think had happened to it?
lol - hmmmm, will have to have another look at the pic !
Kashi isn't the problem, it's the lack of movement ahead of him and Aribo/JFC. Say what you like about KAG at least he makes some runs off the ball, and it's no conicidence that we suddenly started getting behind their lines after he came on.
What I believe is meant to be happening is Kashi comes back to dictate the play from a deep lying position. This allows our two full backs to push forward and our wide midfielders to tuck in and support the number 10 and number 9. It should look something like this:
X —— X ———— X —— X X ———— X ———— X —X —— X —— X— X
But what instead is happening is that Kashi is dropping so far back to collect the ball because we don’t have much movement going forward, we are 15 yards further back than we should be and we are also very cautious as to being exposed in the wide areas. This means that we look massively outnumbered in midfield as it seems as though the centre midfielder is the only one we have. This actually means we find it difficult to dominate and dictate the play meaning we have a lot of sideways passes and backwards play before we hit long to Magennis in hope of getting the second ball to the three behind him. From there we burst into life a little bit and look more dangerous. Ultimately, it’s not working too well at the moment, but when it does work, it allows us to be expansive and overload in attacking areas.
Please can you explain this to Karl, either at Sparrows Lane or in the car park prior to Tuesday's Checkatrade extravaganza.
I agree with the OP & find what Kashi is told to do infuriating. It adds less than zilch & makes our build up ridiculously slow and predictable. One defensive midfielder is adequate, whether it's Kashi or JFC.
As someone who has already got their coaching badges and also doing sports science at university, I would love to sit down with Karl and pick his brains, ask him questions and go through different tactical systems, philosophies and strategies.
As much as people may think KR is, ‘tactically inept’, believe me, he isn’t. Having listened to him plenty of times and had proper conversations with people who work at the club with him on a daily basis, they all have been full of praise. Some people may not like what I am saying because yes at the moment we do look better when we go two up top, when Kashi is pushed further forward to get involved and help out the other centre midfielder, but you also have got to remember how well we played at the start of the season in the system and players we had and used. We have had to adapt and change for many reasons, but ultimately KR is the right man for the job at present and if we were able to bring in Gleeson and Carruthers, which KR really wanted/wants, you would see us pick up again.
Oldham didn't press up high up the pitch in the way other teams have.
They kept a very tight shape in their own half and let has pass it around the back without much closing down.
Neither Bauer or Lennon are comfortable on the ball or great at passing it (the only area where Sarr is better than them) so it to often came back to Kashi and the cycle repeated.
We miss Clarke and JFC's movement and tight control which helped us move the ball up the pitch quickly. Clarke/JFC could then pick out Holmes and Fosu.
Kashi is a destroyer not a creator. Aribo is a talent but very raw and not yet a capable as Clarke or JFC. He works hard and is 100x better than Reeves at present but not sure he is comfortable in the role he has yet.
This. The lack of movement ahead of him was a huge problem. Without JFC in particular, and Clarke, and an in form Reeves, we don't have anyone who is brave enough to pick the ball up in very tight confines, forcing Kashi or the center backs to play it wide.
Also, against really tightly packed teams who sit deep is where a lot of possession-based teams struggle.
If you really are a coach, and I don't mean this to be sarcastic or mean, but can I recommend you do some more reading?
Here are some Jonathan Wilson articles. The first explains the evolution of 4-2-3-1. The next explain "The Kashi Role," or moreso "The Busquets Role" or even the modern Libero.
The question i asked is why he comes into his own box to pick a 5yd pass and then do a 10 yd pass that the keeper could do making the pitch smaller. Covering 40yds back and fourth doing so.
If someone could tell me the sense in that I'm intrigued.
SD, again not being sarcastic but have you watched him do this role, it's so fecking frustrating.
I think the way this should work, and the way you see it work well in possession based team play, is all about who, from the oppo, follows the DM when he comes to collect it.
If an opposition midfielder follows you in, then the ball should go out wide and then it's a foot race to leave that oppo midfielder out of the game whilst your DM should be open and calling for a return ball higher up the pitch.
For me, it's all about the movement off the ball not carrying it in possession. The DM should only be carrying it himself if none of the oppo go to close down.
If you want a nice current example of this then I'd cite the play of Kante under Conte. Kante sees a lot more of the ball in possession than he did at Leicester. It's his pure engine that is open up space in the midfield as you have to track the run of the DM.
IMHO, the best possession football is all about the hard 5-10 yard sprint after you do the "give", sprint into space and receive the "go". Do it once and you open the game up, get some monster like Kante, Keita or Milikovinc-Savic doing it 2-3 times in quick succession and its unplayable.
You don't even have to be that quick. Silva and Busquets are kwolity at using their off the ball movement to open up the game even though they are one paced. They just know what areas are dangerous to do the give and Gos.
I would assume the idea of Kashi dropping deep to collect the ball is to allow the full backs to push on and also draw a man out of oppos midfield creating more space for us. Barcelona do it fantastically, drawing the oppo out of position just by their movement. But we're Charlton....
Kashi isn't the problem, it's the lack of movement ahead of him and Aribo/JFC. Say what you like about KAG at least he makes some runs off the ball, and it's no conicidence that we suddenly started getting behind their lines after he came on.
Yes, KAG's movement when playing as striker is good. In the away match against Oldham, when Magennis was on international duty, he did this very well and made a big contribution to our producing 25 minutes of the best football I've seen from Charlton. Unfortunately there is also quite a bit in the 'say what you like' category, notably his finishing and use of the ball.
I like Kashi. It's worth watching him after he has passed the ball; he almost always makes himself available to receive it again.
What I believe is meant to be happening is Kashi comes back to dictate the play from a deep lying position. This allows our two full backs to push forward and our wide midfielders to tuck in and support the number 10 and number 9. It should look something like this:
X —— X ———— X —— X X ———— X ———— X —X —— X —— X— X
But what instead is happening is that Kashi is dropping so far back to collect the ball because we don’t have much movement going forward, we are 15 yards further back than we should be and we are also very cautious as to being exposed in the wide areas. This means that we look massively outnumbered in midfield as it seems as though the centre midfielder is the only one we have. This actually means we find it difficult to dominate and dictate the play meaning we have a lot of sideways passes and backwards play before we hit long to Magennis in hope of getting the second ball to the three behind him. From there we burst into life a little bit and look more dangerous. Ultimately, it’s not working too well at the moment, but when it does work, it allows us to be expansive and overload in attacking areas.
Please can you explain this to Karl, either at Sparrows Lane or in the car park prior to Tuesday's Checkatrade extravaganza.
I agree with the OP & find what Kashi is told to do infuriating. It adds less than zilch & makes our build up ridiculously slow and predictable. One defensive midfielder is adequate, whether it's Kashi or JFC.
As someone who has already got their coaching badges and also doing sports science at university, I would love to sit down with Karl and pick his brains, ask him questions and go through different tactical systems, philosophies and strategies.
As much as people may think KR is, ‘tactically inept’, believe me, he isn’t. Having listened to him plenty of times and had proper conversations with people who work at the club with him on a daily basis, they all have been full of praise. Some people may not like what I am saying because yes at the moment we do look better when we go two up top, when Kashi is pushed further forward to get involved and help out the other centre midfielder, but you also have got to remember how well we played at the start of the season in the system and players we had and used. We have had to adapt and change for many reasons, but ultimately KR is the right man for the job at present and if we were able to bring in Gleeson and Carruthers, which KR really wanted/wants, you would see us pick up again.
I agree he is not tactically inept and I think a lot of the criticisms he gets is just because he doesn't play 4-4-2.
My criticism of him and how the team has played is not so much tactical but phases of play. I do think many here have made the point that we are able to keep possession at the back and with our fullbacks but that's kind of it. What we've desperately lacked in recent weeks is that kind of movement from the front four that helps to break teams down. Now, definitely worth noting that JFC and Clarke are both very good at getting the ball in tight spaces and/or moving to create space for other players. Reeves is also good at this on his day. And this is particularly hard to do at our level because 1) teams are prepared to sit very deep then swarm, something Gills and Blackburn did, 2) the technical level of the players, and 3) any time someone gets a little space or momentum they get kicked and sometimes it's a foul and sometimes it's not but you don't see bookings for persistent fouling like you do elsewhere. Think Fosu versus Bury.
But improving on this sort of stalemate in possession often comes from really detail oriented work on the training ground with a lot of stop/start drills where you work on what are essentially attacking set plays, practicing the movement and passing required to break teams down. I have not seen kind of next level thinking yet, and it's the kind of thing that, as I understand it, is very very rare in England (and common on the continent).
The other thing is we press far, far less than we did earlier in the year. There's a great line in one of the Jonathan Wilson articles I posted above that essentially amounts to "you press to play, you don't play to press." And that high pressing game allowed us to peg teams back and created a fair few opportunities on its own. Think Fosu against Oxford for example. But it also can scare teams into dropping deeper, which can help us create that little bit of extra territorial advantage that we're struggling with right now.
Kashi isn't the problem, it's the lack of movement ahead of him and Aribo/JFC. Say what you like about KAG at least he makes some runs off the ball, and it's no conicidence that we suddenly started getting behind their lines after he came on.
Yes, KAG's movement when playing as striker is good. In the away match against Oldham, when Magennis was on international duty, he did this very well and made a big contribution to our producing 25 minutes of the best football I've seen from Charlton. Unfortunately there is also quite a bit in the 'say what you like' category, notably his finishing and use of the ball.
I like Kashi. It's worth watching him after he has passed the ball; he almost always makes himself available to receive it again.
He (Kashi) reminds of me Andy Reid in that sense. Obviously totally different players in terms of what their roles are and their abilities, but the thing that always impressed me most about Reidy was he would pass the ball then immediately look to be available for a pass again. He had a relentless work rate in attack. Not enough of our players right now show that determination to make multiple contributions to a move, or they try to do it all themselves. A year ago, we went through a phase where the only goals we were scoring were either glaring errors by the opposition or moments of brilliance by an individual (usually Holmes). We were attacking as a team at the end of last season and the beginning of this, scoring some good team goals involving passing and movement. Right now, for some reason, we're back to relying on errors or individual moments, like Mavididi's.
Comments
I agree with the OP & find what Kashi is told to do infuriating. It adds less than zilch & makes our build up ridiculously slow and predictable. One defensive midfielder is adequate, whether it's Kashi or JFC.
They kept a very tight shape in their own half and let has pass it around the back without much closing down.
Neither Bauer or Lennon are comfortable on the ball or great at passing it (the only area where Sarr is better than them) so it to often came back to Kashi and the cycle repeated.
We miss Clarke and JFC's movement and tight control which helped us move the ball up the pitch quickly. Clarke/JFC could then pick out Holmes and Fosu.
Kashi is a destroyer not a creator. Aribo is a talent but very raw and not yet a capable as Clarke or JFC. He works hard and is 100x better than Reeves at present but not sure he is comfortable in the role he has yet.
Id say he's been told to play that deep. If he hadn't, then I'm fairly sure we would have seen Robinson or Bowyer screaming at him by now and Amos wouldn't keep rolling him the ball.
4-5-1 is possibly keeping Kashi fit enough to play (less running) but 4-4-2 suits his style of play better. I remember him tackling QPR and Hull players all over the pitch in a 4-4-2 and (I think) playing a long diagonal for Makienok to head across for JBG's late winner v Hull. 2nd half v Gills he played much higher up and looked good.
His tackling is often reckless.
Also, against really tightly packed teams who sit deep is where a lot of possession-based teams struggle.
If you really are a coach, and I don't mean this to be sarcastic or mean, but can I recommend you do some more reading?
Here are some Jonathan Wilson articles. The first explains the evolution of 4-2-3-1. The next explain "The Kashi Role," or moreso "The Busquets Role" or even the modern Libero.
https://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2008/dec/18/4231-442-tactics-jonathan-wilson
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2010/oct/26/the-question-barcelona-reinventing-w-w
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2010/aug/04/the-question-is-4-2-1-3-the-future
If someone could tell me the sense in that I'm intrigued.
SD, again not being sarcastic but have you watched him do this role, it's so fecking frustrating.
Don't believe me? Check out his stats for goals and assists, and compare them to JFC.
Anyone who say that he's EVER been a box-to-box midfielder is deluded.
As much as people may think KR is, ‘tactically inept’, believe me, he isn’t. Having listened to him plenty of times and had proper conversations with people who work at the club with him on a daily basis, they all have been full of praise. Some people may not like what I am saying because yes at the moment we do look better when we go two up top, when Kashi is pushed further forward to get involved and help out the other centre midfielder, but you also have got to remember how well we played at the start of the season in the system and players we had and used. We have had to adapt and change for many reasons, but ultimately KR is the right man for the job at present and if we were able to bring in Gleeson and Carruthers, which KR really wanted/wants, you would see us pick up again.
If an opposition midfielder follows you in, then the ball should go out wide and then it's a foot race to leave that oppo midfielder out of the game whilst your DM should be open and calling for a return ball higher up the pitch.
For me, it's all about the movement off the ball not carrying it in possession. The DM should only be carrying it himself if none of the oppo go to close down.
If you want a nice current example of this then I'd cite the play of Kante under Conte. Kante sees a lot more of the ball in possession than he did at Leicester. It's his pure engine that is open up space in the midfield as you have to track the run of the DM.
IMHO, the best possession football is all about the hard 5-10 yard sprint after you do the "give", sprint into space and receive the "go". Do it once and you open the game up, get some monster like Kante, Keita or Milikovinc-Savic doing it 2-3 times in quick succession and its unplayable.
You don't even have to be that quick. Silva and Busquets are kwolity at using their off the ball movement to open up the game even though they are one paced. They just know what areas are dangerous to do the give and Gos.
Barcelona do it fantastically, drawing the oppo out of position just by their movement. But we're Charlton....
I like Kashi. It's worth watching him after he has passed the ball; he almost always makes himself available to receive it again.
My criticism of him and how the team has played is not so much tactical but phases of play. I do think many here have made the point that we are able to keep possession at the back and with our fullbacks but that's kind of it. What we've desperately lacked in recent weeks is that kind of movement from the front four that helps to break teams down. Now, definitely worth noting that JFC and Clarke are both very good at getting the ball in tight spaces and/or moving to create space for other players. Reeves is also good at this on his day. And this is particularly hard to do at our level because 1) teams are prepared to sit very deep then swarm, something Gills and Blackburn did, 2) the technical level of the players, and 3) any time someone gets a little space or momentum they get kicked and sometimes it's a foul and sometimes it's not but you don't see bookings for persistent fouling like you do elsewhere. Think Fosu versus Bury.
But improving on this sort of stalemate in possession often comes from really detail oriented work on the training ground with a lot of stop/start drills where you work on what are essentially attacking set plays, practicing the movement and passing required to break teams down. I have not seen kind of next level thinking yet, and it's the kind of thing that, as I understand it, is very very rare in England (and common on the continent).
The other thing is we press far, far less than we did earlier in the year. There's a great line in one of the Jonathan Wilson articles I posted above that essentially amounts to "you press to play, you don't play to press." And that high pressing game allowed us to peg teams back and created a fair few opportunities on its own. Think Fosu against Oxford for example. But it also can scare teams into dropping deeper, which can help us create that little bit of extra territorial advantage that we're struggling with right now.