Reading the responses to the video a lot of people don’t seem to understand what a continent is.
It was more the irony of him using a European protest symbol to protest that he isn’t European that I thought was delicious.
Sadly, the irony will always be lost on these thickos!
The other irony was standing in front of the City of London boundry marker to make his little speech, that’s a part of the country that massively benefits from the freedom of movement of services (and people) that the EU brings and now powers the nations economy.
Ireland is part of the British Isles. I double dare you to start refering to people from Ireland as British.
There is some debate over the use the term "British Isles", and quite a few people from Ireland (at least in the North Eastern corner of the island are routinely described as British).
I don’t believe any action is too late - not sure if you object to this, but it's a matter of opinion so I assume this is not part of your objection.
If Parliament eventually agrees to a second referendum - not factual, merely conjecture on my part, so a matter of debate rather than objection.
(which I believe will happen once the political ‘It’s a Knockout’ is finished) - see above.
and, as a result, this requires revocation of Article 50 - as has been agreed by the ECJ, Article 50 can be revoked unilaterally by the UK.
I have no doubt that there would be no objection from the EU - if the revocation was introduced with the intention of allowing time for a 2nd referendum, then the EU would not object. However, if it is seen by the EU as not being ‘unequivocal and unconditional’, then it could be considered by the EU/ECJ to be invalid.
So, in the circumstances outlined, I have no doubt that the EU would not object. If you want to carry on with an empty argument, be my guest, as I am not going to bother educating you again on this point.
The EU can't prevent the UK revoking Article 50.
So it's of no relevance whether there is any "objection" by the EU. That's the point I'm making. I hope you understand it now.
Reading the responses to the video a lot of people don’t seem to understand what a continent is.
It was more the irony of him using a European protest symbol to protest that he isn’t European that I thought was delicious.
Sadly, the irony will always be lost on these thickos!
The other irony was standing in front of the City of London boundry marker to make his little speech, that’s a part of the country that massively benefits from the freedom of movement of services (and people) that the EU brings and now powers the nations economy.
Ireland is part of the British Isles. I double dare you to start refering to people from Ireland as British.
There is some debate over the use the term "British Isles", and quite a few people from Ireland (at least in the North Eastern corner of the island are routinely described as British).
It's ll a question of perspective.
Or the new thing about self identification. I was born in Erith, lived, studied and worked (and paid taxes and voted) in London all my life, but I am 100% not English, I certainly would not admit to being British either. In terms of self identification I am glad to think of myself as European or an internationalist even. I feel a great sense of shame and embarrassment to be thought of as British with the associations made in this day and age.
Reading the responses to the video a lot of people don’t seem to understand what a continent is.
It was more the irony of him using a European protest symbol to protest that he isn’t European that I thought was delicious.
Sadly, the irony will always be lost on these thickos!
The other irony was standing in front of the City of London boundry marker to make his little speech, that’s a part of the country that massively benefits from the freedom of movement of services (and people) that the EU brings and now powers the nations economy.
Ireland is part of the British Isles. I double dare you to start refering to people from Ireland as British.
Reading the responses to the video a lot of people don’t seem to understand what a continent is.
It was more the irony of him using a European protest symbol to protest that he isn’t European that I thought was delicious.
Sadly, the irony will always be lost on these thickos!
The other irony was standing in front of the City of London boundry marker to make his little speech, that’s a part of the country that massively benefits from the freedom of movement of services (and people) that the EU brings and now powers the nations economy.
Ireland is part of the British Isles. I double dare you to start refering to people from Ireland as British.
There is some debate over the use the term "British Isles", and quite a few people from Ireland (at least in the North Eastern corner of the island are routinely described as British).
Reading the responses to the video a lot of people don’t seem to understand what a continent is.
It was more the irony of him using a European protest symbol to protest that he isn’t European that I thought was delicious.
@Leuth These guys are samples of exactly the particular element of the Brexit vote that I referred to when writing on the Question Time thread "We are close to crashing out, with loads of less educated citizens cheering it on". When challenged I clarified that of course I didn't mean all Brexit voters since at 17.4 m it is impossible for them all to be "less educated", and produced the analysis that showed the demographic bias towards older less educated males in the Brexit vote.
To my surprise, you chose to reply "Calling Leave voters less educated is a terrible, terrible look". I was even more surprised to see your post liked by @McBobbin and @Callumcafc.
Well guys, here is exactly the group I was referring to. Patently they do not represent intelligent articulate Brexiteers such as @stonemuse . But I wonder what stonemuse makes of their antics?
More importantly how did they hit upon the idea of identifying themselves with gilet jaunes? Was it just their hidden flair for creative protest? Or did "somebody" put them up to it? Who is this "somebody"? Did it just happen, or was it via an organised, paid-for social media campaign? And if so, who financed it?
PS. Today, it's 100 days to go. Less the minimum 14 days when the political classes head off to "Verb". so that's 86 days. A referendum before then is patently impossible, and the antics of this lot show that the situation in the country makes such a referendum almost impossible to manage.
Reading the responses to the video a lot of people don’t seem to understand what a continent is.
It was more the irony of him using a European protest symbol to protest that he isn’t European that I thought was delicious.
@Leuth These guys are samples of exactly the particular element of the Brexit vote that I referred to when writing on the Question Time thread "We are close to crashing out, with loads of less educated citizens cheering it on". When challenged I clarified that of course I didn't mean all Brexit voters since at 17.4 m it is impossible for them all to be "less educated", and produced the analysis that showed the demographic bias towards older less educated males in the Brexit vote.
To my surprise, you chose to reply "Calling Leave voters less educated is a terrible, terrible look". I was even more surprised to see your post liked by @McBobbin and @Callumcafc.
Well guys, here is exactly the group I was referring to. Patently they do not represent intelligent articulate Brexiteers such as @stonemuse . But I wonder what stonemuse makes of their antics?
More importantly how did they hit upon the idea of identifying themselves with gilet jaunes? Was it just their hidden flair for creative protest? Or did "somebody" put them up to it? Who is this "somebody"? Did it just happen, or was it via an organised, paid-for social media campaign? And if so, who financed it?
PS. Today, it's 100 days to go. Less the minimum 14 days when the political classes head off to "Verb". so that's 86 days. A referendum before then is patently impossible, and the antics of this lot show that the situation in the country makes such a referendum almost impossible to manage.
Don't forget the traditional week-long break in February that Parliament grants itself.
Reading the responses to the video a lot of people don’t seem to understand what a continent is.
It was more the irony of him using a European protest symbol to protest that he isn’t European that I thought was delicious.
@Leuth These guys are samples of exactly the particular element of the Brexit vote that I referred to when writing on the Question Time thread "We are close to crashing out, with loads of less educated citizens cheering it on". When challenged I clarified that of course I didn't mean all Brexit voters since at 17.4 m it is impossible for them all to be "less educated", and produced the analysis that showed the demographic bias towards older less educated males in the Brexit vote.
To my surprise, you chose to reply "Calling Leave voters less educated is a terrible, terrible look". I was even more surprised to see your post liked by @McBobbin and @Callumcafc.
Well guys, here is exactly the group I was referring to. Patently they do not represent intelligent articulate Brexiteers such as @stonemuse . But I wonder what stonemuse makes of their antics?
More importantly how did they hit upon the idea of identifying themselves with gilet jaunes? Was it just their hidden flair for creative protest? Or did "somebody" put them up to it? Who is this "somebody"? Did it just happen, or was it via an organised, paid-for social media campaign? And if so, who financed it?
PS. Today, it's 100 days to go. Less the minimum 14 days when the political classes head off to "Verb". so that's 86 days. A referendum before then is patently impossible, and the antics of this lot show that the situation in the country makes such a referendum almost impossible to manage.
I think they are a bunch of wankers ... however, whilst I understand your clarification, I still believe your original post included a patronising element.
Prague, it's not that you're necessarily wrong, but you have to be SO careful when you generalise. The optics are so easy to misjudge. So while I'd agree that there are a lot of nonsense justifications for a Brexit vote, it isn't really worth using the word 'uneducated' at all. You're winning nobody over, and you're alienating everyone who doesn't want to read between the lines. And as we've established, that is a lot of people
Besides, I know quite a lot of highly educated people who are both idiotic and dangerous - many of them being the ones whose lies have brought about Brexit. They are always the main problem
Just came across this quote in an article about how the Nazi Party won power in Germany in the 30s. The parallels are scary!
“Goebbels used people’s fear of uncertainty and instability to portray Hitler as a man with a great vision for prosperity and stability. Hitler used his own skills of oratory to appeal to the patriotism of the German people by promising to break free of the restrictions of the Treaty of Versailles. His aim of ending the payment of reparations was especially popular.”
Reading the responses to the video a lot of people don’t seem to understand what a continent is.
It was more the irony of him using a European protest symbol to protest that he isn’t European that I thought was delicious.
Sadly, the irony will always be lost on these thickos!
The other irony was standing in front of the City of London boundry marker to make his little speech, that’s a part of the country that massively benefits from the freedom of movement of services (and people) that the EU brings and now powers the nations economy.
Ireland is part of the British Isles. I double dare you to start refering to people from Ireland as British.
We don't care for that term as it implies British ownership of Ireland. Our government never uses that term and typically the British government doesn't either. They tend to both use "These Isles". I prefer the North Atlantic Archipelago personally, though there probably is no real reason to have a specific name for the Islands.
For what it's worth, I agreed with @Leuth that insulting half the country is a bad look, because it closes off debate. I certainly have plenty of fire in my belly in terms of the conceptual and practical ramifications of what seems to be unfolding, let me also make that clear.
Great news. I’ve mentioned it before on here but if anyone is truly interested in why George Soros is motivated to do what he does try reading ‘Maskerado (Dancing around Death in Nazi Hungary)’ by his father Tivadar Soros.
People like Trump and Orban aren’t fit to clean his shoes.
Prague, it's not that you're necessarily wrong, but you have to be SO careful when you generalise. The optics are so easy to misjudge. So while I'd agree that there are a lot of nonsense justifications for a Brexit vote, it isn't really worth using the word 'uneducated' at all. You're winning nobody over, and you're alienating everyone who doesn't want to read between the lines. And as we've established, that is a lot of people
Up to a point you are right, (although I wrote "less educated") and because I was writing the original line in haste, and with some ire, it wasn't as clear as it could have been.
However I would like to say this about the dialogue on here, and the 'standards' we should adhere to. These "optics" are of course essential for politicians who seek to lead and to influence. This is a forum of football fans, we are (unless otherwise declared) representing ourselves, nothing more, and we are all equal. I'm getting a bit sick of being told how careful Remainers have to be not to "patronise" the Brexit side, while people on the Brexit side can come on here and write, e.g. nothing more than "Fuck the EU" and then run away, or LOL (without follow up) a post asserting nothing more controversial than why we have run out of time for a referendum. Is that worthy of respect? Not in my book. Not when the evidence of the monstrous consequences of the vote are mounting up for all to see.
Reading the responses to the video a lot of people don’t seem to understand what a continent is.
It was more the irony of him using a European protest symbol to protest that he isn’t European that I thought was delicious.
Sadly, the irony will always be lost on these thickos!
The other irony was standing in front of the City of London boundry marker to make his little speech, that’s a part of the country that massively benefits from the freedom of movement of services (and people) that the EU brings and now powers the nations economy.
Ireland is part of the British Isles. I double dare you to start refering to people from Ireland as British.
There is some debate over the use the term "British Isles", and quite a few people from Ireland (at least in the North Eastern corner of the island are routinely described as British).
It's ll a question of perspective.
How can they be described as British ? There’s water between us.
As there is between us and the Isles of Wight, Man, Hebrides, outer islands, north and south Thames, either side of a reservoir.
There is no doubt that seas, mountains, rivers do provide barriers that have led to the relatively solid country boundaries we have today but we all know that just because there is one it isn’t determinative (well mostly)
Prague, it's not that you're necessarily wrong, but you have to be SO careful when you generalise. The optics are so easy to misjudge. So while I'd agree that there are a lot of nonsense justifications for a Brexit vote, it isn't really worth using the word 'uneducated' at all. You're winning nobody over, and you're alienating everyone who doesn't want to read between the lines. And as we've established, that is a lot of people
Up to a point you are right, (although I wrote "less educated") and because I was writing the original line in haste, and with some ire, it wasn't as clear as it could have been.
However I would like to say this about the dialogue on here, and the 'standards' we should adhere to. These "optics" are of course essential for politicians who seek to lead and to influence. This is a forum of football fans, we are (unless otherwise declared) representing ourselves, nothing more, and we are all equal. I'm getting a bit sick of being told how careful Remainers have to be not to "patronise" the Brexit side, while people on the Brexit side can come on here and write, e.g. nothing more than "Fuck the EU" and then run away, or LOL (without follow up) a post asserting nothing more controversial than why we have run out of time for a referendum. Is that worthy of respect? Not in my book. Not when the evidence of the monstrous consequences of the vote are mounting up for all to see.
Anybody wishing to participate in discussion and find truth and options / outcomes has to raise their game. We need to listen, read and be familiar with Schrodinger's cat - the possibility of opposing states existing simultaneously.
Simplifying the discourse might help to identify commonalities and differences but it will rarely provide solutions.
What I would add is that there is always time for another referendum. Whether we leave the EU or not next March 29th a People's vote is a powerful rallying cry to set this country on the right path vis a via the single market. For we are not due to Leave that until the end of the transition.
Those who run away have been noted and the electorate is unlikely to be forgiving when they have the opportunity to make their views known. Perhaps we might look at what Stamer, Umunna and O'Grady (head of the TUC) have to say in proceedings in the new Year?
For we know that the WA will fail at the first attempt. But do we know how the wider Labour movement should or could respond after we leave?
Alternatively we might place all our faith in how Brexit might be halted? But May is not going to revoke Art. 50 and it's unclear whether a no confidence will ever succeed.
Perhaps we might all follow the guidance of Elenor Roosevelt? Perhaps focus on ideas and events and sidestep the personalisation which brings the whole thing down?
It shouldn't be difficult to answer a Yes/No question or one where the answer is a number or statistic. If you are asked a question and you start your answer with 'what', you are an imbecile.
“If Parliament takes the initiative and approves the Withdrawal Agreement and Political Declaration, it will have taken the options of No Deal and No Brexit off the table. If Parliament rejects the deal and leaves it to the electorate to decide, it seems highly unlikely a ‘People’s Vote’ would really be on the deal if it is the deal that MPs have rejected. In practice, even if there are three options on the ballot paper, the first preference selection would likely become a binary choice between a No Deal Brexit and No Brexit. A referendum would put back on the table what parliament could have taken off the table. That is the choice MPs must make when they return to the Commons in January.”
It would probably be in January - It would mean article 50 would have to be put on hold. Which it will be because the EU's preferred option is us not leaving at all. We do have to grow a pair. In many ways, it is better we don't rush into the referendum and do it after May's vote. What is completely unbelievable with some, and I include you in that Prague with all respect, is that winning the referendum is as important as getting it. If it looks like Remainers have constructed this, it will be harder to win. If it is a last resort, it is infinitely better. We have to fall into it.
Mate, let's try again. In order to have a referendum, the Government of the day has to want it, and to get a Referendum Bill passed in the HoC. Given that May's WA debate has been put back to mid Jan, that's half that month gone. Everyone expects her to lose. Even if the very next day she says "OK, let's have another referendum" you've seen for yourself that there is no agreement within her party for that, indeed Rees-Mogg will doubtless grab the Mace and attack her with it in the name of "democracy". Then even if the principal of a referendum is agreed, they need a further debate about the questions. And then, they need to get it drafted and through Parliament. There is no way.
You're a printer, there must have been times, especially in the pre digital age, you had to tell a client that it's simply too late?
All the time,even in this digital age, people tend to leave things to the last minute for all sorts of reasons, but my point is that it isn't too late. And when Labour don't get their desired election, there is a majority for a referendum in the house when there isn't a majority for anything else. The problem is that the majority is small and requires Tory MPs who might change their mind. So we should all be worried, but the numbers do work. They might be more likely to work the nearer the edge of the cliff we are although it is frustrating.
I think you have to have faith in two things - which I do - and that is there are enough sensible Tories who won't allow the damage a hard Brexit will cause and secondly, you have to believe the EU will be supportive around us having a second vote, and I think they will, especially as they have hinted so.
I simply can't believe that the least popular option which everybody who is remotely sensible can see has the potential to be highly damaging will be allowed to happen.
It is frustrating that the no confidence vote in the Government hasn't happened, but it is important that May's plan is given its chance to be passed first. The delay is the fault of the government and nobody else.
It is a good point about the questions. This I am unsure about, but if a referendum is voted on, couldn't the terms of the referendum be included in that vote. I think and hope that some of the Christmas break time will be spent with like minded people of all parties working out the strategy and the numbers and the question so it plays out as soon as May's deal has been voted against.
The damage inflicted by a xenophobic campaign banging on about immigration 24/7 has led to where we are today
Yes, but that wasn't the start, that was the result.
The start was the "left" not allowing anyone to discuss their concerns, not about immigration, but about the HIGH LEVELS of immigration, without being called racist or bigot.
The Labour government deliberately sought HIGH LEVELS of immigration to rub the oppositions noses in it.
So, UKIP was formed and started to grow as more central parties were too afraid to speak out.
It would probably be in January - It would mean article 50 would have to be put on hold. Which it will be because the EU's preferred option is us not leaving at all. We do have to grow a pair. In many ways, it is better we don't rush into the referendum and do it after May's vote. What is completely unbelievable with some, and I include you in that Prague with all respect, is that winning the referendum is as important as getting it. If it looks like Remainers have constructed this, it will be harder to win. If it is a last resort, it is infinitely better. We have to fall into it.
Mate, let's try again. In order to have a referendum, the Government of the day has to want it, and to get a Referendum Bill passed in the HoC. Given that May's WA debate has been put back to mid Jan, that's half that month gone. Everyone expects her to lose. Even if the very next day she says "OK, let's have another referendum" you've seen for yourself that there is no agreement within her party for that, indeed Rees-Mogg will doubtless grab the Mace and attack her with it in the name of "democracy". Then even if the principal of a referendum is agreed, they need a further debate about the questions. And then, they need to get it drafted and through Parliament. There is no way.
You're a printer, there must have been times, especially in the pre digital age, you had to tell a client that it's simply too late?
All the time,even in this digital age, people tend to leave things to the last minute for all sorts of reasons, but my point is that it isn't too late. And when Labour don't get their desired election, there is a majority for a referendum in the house when there isn't a majority for anything else. The problem is that the majority is small and requires Tory MPs who might change their mind. So we should all be worried, but the numbers do work. They might be more likely to work the nearer the edge of the cliff we are although it is frustrating.
I think you have to have faith in two things - which I do - and that is there are enough sensible Tories who won't allow the damage a hard Brexit will cause and secondly, you have to believe the EU will be supportive around us having a second vote, and I think they will, especially as they have hinted so.
I simply can't believe that the least popular option which everybody who is remotely sensible can see has the potential to be highly damaging will be allowed to happen.
It is frustrating that the no confidence vote in the Government hasn't happened, but it is important that May's plan is given its chance to be passed first. The delay is the fault of the government and nobody else.
It is a good point about the questions. This I am unsure about, but if a referendum is voted on, couldn't the terms of the referendum be included in that vote. I think and hope that some of the Christmas break time will be spent with like minded people of all parties working out the strategy and the numbers and the question so it plays out as soon as May's deal has been voted against.
The damage inflicted by a xenophobic campaign banging on about immigration 24/7 has led to where we are today
Yes, but that wasn't the start, that was the result.
The start was the "left" not allowing anyone to discuss their concerns, not about immigration, but about the HIGH LEVELS of immigration, without being called racist or bigot.
The Labour government deliberately sought HIGH LEVELS of immigration to rub the oppositions noses in it.
So, UKIP was formed and started to grow as more central parties were too afraid to speak out.
Immigration isn't the cause. If it were then the areas with high immigration would be more likely to vote Leave. That is not what happened. Wealth inequality is the real cause but it suits the UK government to allow people to blame immigration because they are responsible for wealth inequality and either have no answers for it, or don't want to solve the problem.
It would probably be in January - It would mean article 50 would have to be put on hold. Which it will be because the EU's preferred option is us not leaving at all. We do have to grow a pair. In many ways, it is better we don't rush into the referendum and do it after May's vote. What is completely unbelievable with some, and I include you in that Prague with all respect, is that winning the referendum is as important as getting it. If it looks like Remainers have constructed this, it will be harder to win. If it is a last resort, it is infinitely better. We have to fall into it.
Mate, let's try again. In order to have a referendum, the Government of the day has to want it, and to get a Referendum Bill passed in the HoC. Given that May's WA debate has been put back to mid Jan, that's half that month gone. Everyone expects her to lose. Even if the very next day she says "OK, let's have another referendum" you've seen for yourself that there is no agreement within her party for that, indeed Rees-Mogg will doubtless grab the Mace and attack her with it in the name of "democracy". Then even if the principal of a referendum is agreed, they need a further debate about the questions. And then, they need to get it drafted and through Parliament. There is no way.
You're a printer, there must have been times, especially in the pre digital age, you had to tell a client that it's simply too late?
All the time,even in this digital age, people tend to leave things to the last minute for all sorts of reasons, but my point is that it isn't too late. And when Labour don't get their desired election, there is a majority for a referendum in the house when there isn't a majority for anything else. The problem is that the majority is small and requires Tory MPs who might change their mind. So we should all be worried, but the numbers do work. They might be more likely to work the nearer the edge of the cliff we are although it is frustrating.
I think you have to have faith in two things - which I do - and that is there are enough sensible Tories who won't allow the damage a hard Brexit will cause and secondly, you have to believe the EU will be supportive around us having a second vote, and I think they will, especially as they have hinted so.
I simply can't believe that the least popular option which everybody who is remotely sensible can see has the potential to be highly damaging will be allowed to happen.
It is frustrating that the no confidence vote in the Government hasn't happened, but it is important that May's plan is given its chance to be passed first. The delay is the fault of the government and nobody else.
It is a good point about the questions. This I am unsure about, but if a referendum is voted on, couldn't the terms of the referendum be included in that vote. I think and hope that some of the Christmas break time will be spent with like minded people of all parties working out the strategy and the numbers and the question so it plays out as soon as May's deal has been voted against.
The damage inflicted by a xenophobic campaign banging on about immigration 24/7 has led to where we are today
Yes, but that wasn't the start, that was the result.
The start was the "left" not allowing anyone to discuss their concerns, not about immigration, but about the HIGH LEVELS of immigration, without being called racist or bigot.
The Labour government deliberately sought HIGH LEVELS of immigration to rub the oppositions noses in it.
So, UKIP was formed and started to grow as more central parties were too afraid to speak out.
Immigration isn't the cause. If it were then the areas with high immigration would be more likely to vote Leave. That is not what happened. Wealth inequality is the real cause but it suits the UK government to allow people to blame immigration because they are responsible for wealth inequality and either have no answers for it, or don't want to solve the problem.
Spot on, this is the point I try to make to my in-laws who love in deepest darkest Devon where only white, Anglo-Saxons reside but who voted for Brexit in huge numbers because they think non-existent immigrants are stretching local services to breaking point.
Comments
It's all a question of perspective.
So it's of no relevance whether there is any "objection" by the EU. That's the point I'm making. I hope you understand it now.
I was born in Erith, lived, studied and worked (and paid taxes and voted) in London all my life, but I am 100% not English, I certainly would not admit to being British either.
In terms of self identification I am glad to think of myself as European or an internationalist even. I feel a great sense of shame and embarrassment to be thought of as British with the associations made in this day and age.
To my surprise, you chose to reply "Calling Leave voters less educated is a terrible, terrible look". I was even more surprised to see your post liked by @McBobbin and @Callumcafc.
Well guys, here is exactly the group I was referring to. Patently they do not represent intelligent articulate Brexiteers such as @stonemuse . But I wonder what stonemuse makes of their antics?
More importantly how did they hit upon the idea of identifying themselves with gilet jaunes? Was it just their hidden flair for creative protest? Or did "somebody" put them up to it? Who is this "somebody"? Did it just happen, or was it via an organised, paid-for social media campaign? And if so, who financed it?
PS. Today, it's 100 days to go. Less the minimum 14 days when the political classes head off to "Verb". so that's 86 days. A referendum before then is patently impossible, and the antics of this lot show that the situation in the country makes such a referendum almost impossible to manage.
An IQ genius with zero sense of empathy could be said to be uneducated.
Must really confuse these people that we play in the Euros and in the European team for the Ryder Cup.
https://www.ft.com/content/2bd12012-01e4-11e9-9d01-cd4d49afbbe3
BUT MUH SOROS PROPAGANDAAAH
“Goebbels used people’s fear of uncertainty and instability to portray Hitler as a man with a great vision for prosperity and stability. Hitler used his own skills of oratory to appeal to the patriotism of the German people by promising to break free of the restrictions of the Treaty of Versailles. His aim of ending the payment of reparations was especially popular.”
People like Trump and Orban aren’t fit to clean his shoes.
However I would like to say this about the dialogue on here, and the 'standards' we should adhere to. These "optics" are of course essential for politicians who seek to lead and to influence. This is a forum of football fans, we are (unless otherwise declared) representing ourselves, nothing more, and we are all equal. I'm getting a bit sick of being told how careful Remainers have to be not to "patronise" the Brexit side, while people on the Brexit side can come on here and write, e.g. nothing more than "Fuck the EU" and then run away, or LOL (without follow up) a post asserting nothing more controversial than why we have run out of time for a referendum. Is that worthy of respect? Not in my book. Not when the evidence of the monstrous consequences of the vote are mounting up for all to see.
There is no doubt that seas, mountains, rivers do provide barriers that have led to the relatively solid country boundaries we have today but we all know that just because there is one it isn’t determinative (well mostly)
Simplifying the discourse might help to identify commonalities and differences but it will rarely provide solutions.
What I would add is that there is always time for another referendum. Whether we leave the EU or not next March 29th a People's vote is a powerful rallying cry to set this country on the right path vis a via the single market. For we are not due to Leave that until the end of the transition.
Those who run away have been noted and the electorate is unlikely to be forgiving when they have the opportunity to make their views known. Perhaps we might look at what Stamer, Umunna and O'Grady (head of the TUC) have to say in proceedings in the new Year?
For we know that the WA will fail at the first attempt. But do we know how the wider Labour movement should or could respond after we leave?
Alternatively we might place all our faith in how Brexit might be halted? But May is not going to revoke Art. 50 and it's unclear whether a no confidence will ever succeed.
Perhaps we might all follow the guidance of Elenor Roosevelt? Perhaps focus on ideas and events and sidestep the personalisation which brings the whole thing down?
It shouldn't be difficult to answer a Yes/No question or one where the answer is a number or statistic. If you are asked a question and you start your answer with 'what', you are an imbecile.
https://brexittime.com/2018/12/19/100-days-to-brexit-from-branching-histories-to-binary-choices/
The start was the "left" not allowing anyone to discuss their concerns, not about immigration, but about the HIGH LEVELS of immigration, without being called racist or bigot.
The Labour government deliberately sought HIGH LEVELS of immigration to rub the oppositions noses in it.
So, UKIP was formed and started to grow as more central parties were too afraid to speak out.