This must confuse people who rely on the Guardian to confirm the expert view that Brexit can only be a disaster for the UK.
"That is the conclusion of a government commissioned review on industrial digitalisation, published today and led by industry chief Jürgen Maier, the UK and Ireland boss of German engineering giant Siemens."
Yeah sorry I missed that, I’ll wait and see what George Osbourne tells me who I should listen to.
This must confuse people who rely on the Guardian to confirm the expert view that Brexit can only be a disaster for the UK.
IR4 is a real game changer moving forward and the UK is at the forefront in Europe and in a strong position globally.
Digitalisation, AI, IoT, Blockchain, etc will transform the world of trade and many other aspects of our lives.
I'm not trying to be awkward, but the article is about a report that, while definitely encouraging, suggests initiatives that have yet to meet the Treasury. Trust me when I say that I really hope that the report is a vision of what will happen rather than what might....
Recent history suggests that the UK has not always managed to retain a leading position where technology is involved.
And, in my anti-Brexit dig, whether rightly or wrongly, there is a perception in Europe at least that the UK is less welcoming a place than before - which may have a knock-on effect on the ability of firms and research organisations to draw in the best talent in the future.
Every so often I like to punctuate this thread by repeating that the financial aspects of Brexit is not the only item on the agenda.
Indeed it depresses me that folk on both sides go on about future financial disaster or future financial benefits.
Getting richer or poorer will not compensate for becoming less democratic, more insular, and any anti-'foreign' culture gaining strength by the UK formally withdrawing from an organisation that gives many of us hope and opportunity.
And there is the issue of the land border on the island of Ireland and Gibraltar.
People who think as I do may be in a minority, but there are some of us who are not excited by the money, and just as some brexiters say they would be happy to be poorer to leave the EU, I would be happy to be poorer to stay in.
This must confuse people who rely on the Guardian to confirm the expert view that Brexit can only be a disaster for the UK.
IR4 is a real game changer moving forward and the UK is at the forefront in Europe and in a strong position globally.
Digitalisation, AI, IoT, Blockchain, etc will transform the world of trade and many other aspects of our lives.
Are you trying to claim that this revolution would not happen if we stayed in the EU? Somehow the EU would prevent the UK from fully benefiting from this revolution if the UK remained a member?
This must confuse people who rely on the Guardian to confirm the expert view that Brexit can only be a disaster for the UK.
IR4 is a real game changer moving forward and the UK is at the forefront in Europe and in a strong position globally.
Digitalisation, AI, IoT, Blockchain, etc will transform the world of trade and many other aspects of our lives.
Are you trying to claim that this revolution would not happen if we stayed in the EU? Somehow the EU would prevent the UK from fully benefiting from this revolution if the UK remained a member?
I don't think stonemuse was saying that. Although I imagine his perception of how the EU impacts the UK might mean that the post-Brexit boons will be even greater than if we stayed in the EU.
I think the Walter Mitty who posted the link in the first place is suggesting that any good economic news post June 2016 is because of Brexit, as opposed to in spite of, which would be the more accurate view. Or that those of us who voted Remain are all Guardian readers and never acknowledge any good news. Which is patently absurd but par for the course at this point.
The "LME" slur is not thrown at politicians. It is thrown at everyone who voted Remain.
Southbank is unable to define what he means by "LME" and has no evidence to back up his claim that the majority of business leaders back Remain. He is a fact-free Brexit poster, albeit always cordial. Even if he can prove it, he has to then show how this is because they are "the elite" rather than because they think Brexit is bad for business.
There are loads of "business elite" who vocally support Brexit. James Dyson to start with. He's a manufacturer who struggles a bit in Europe because his machines are even more expensive than Miele, so understandably he looks beyond the EU. Good luck to him. Then there is that bloke Tim from Wetherspoons who I had to endure on Any Questions yet again on Saturday. Then there's that bloke who used to be director of BritCham before the referendum but had to resign (doubtless because many of his members didn't think he was representing them). There are others, all of them elite in terms of background. If they are not the majority, it's not because they are not "elite" enough but because the majority of businesses simply think Brexit is a load of arse.
Of course the news that a fourth industrial revolution if correctly harnessed, would be great news for GB is to be welcomed. Who wouldn’t welcome it.
What I don’t quite understand is why this is being portrayed as some kind of justification for Brexit. The fact that this revolution is on the horizon is regardless of whether the UK is part of the eu or not. It would be just as important for our economy either way.
As far as I’m aware, eu membership doesn’t prevent or constrain any of its member economies from taking advantage of technology or expanding markets.
Whatever the UK has to offer to the world markets is not held back by eu membership.
Right now the biggest growth area for the sale of German cars is China. That is an emerging market that Germany is able to exploit. Why anyone thinks that Brexit makes it easier for the UK to sell the no doubt soon to be resurrected Austin Allegro to the Chinese I cannot understand.
The "LME" slur is not thrown at politicians. It is thrown at everyone who voted Remain.
Southbank is unable to define what he means by "LME" and has no evidence to back up his claim that the majority of business leaders back Remain. He is a fact-free Brexit poster, albeit always cordial. Even if he can prove it, he has to then show how this is because they are "the elite" rather than because they think Brexit is bad for business.
There are loads of "business elite" who vocally support Brexit. James Dyson to start with. He's a manufacturer who struggles a bit in Europe because his machines are even more expensive than Miele, so understandably he looks beyond the EU. Good luck to him. Then there is that bloke Tim from Wetherspoons who I had to endure on Any Questions yet again on Saturday. Then there's that bloke who used to be director of BritCham before the referendum but had to resign (doubtless because many of his members didn't think he was representing them). There are others, all of them elite in terms of background. If they are not the majority, it's not because they are not "elite" enough but because the majority of businesses simply think Brexit is a load of arse.
Southbank did actually identify that the elite he was referring to is made up of academics, business and industry leaders, and Tories.
The reasons why Tim and Dyson support Brexit seems to transcend traditional business sense. Tim saw an opportunity to gain more muster with his clientele. Dyson has been somewhat difficult to pin down on his problems with the EU. He was pro-EU up until 2014. As you say, the competition he faces from the Germans may be why he would like to see the UK break away. He also muttered something about sovereignty but never really expanded on the point. Presumably he thinks that 80% of our laws are made in Brussels by unelected Eurocrats. He also seems to think the EU is stopping him from being able to export to the Far East. Figure that one out.
The "LME" slur is not thrown at politicians. It is thrown at everyone who voted Remain.
Southbank is unable to define what he means by "LME" and has no evidence to back up his claim that the majority of business leaders back Remain. He is a fact-free Brexit poster, albeit always cordial. Even if he can prove it, he has to then show how this is because they are "the elite" rather than because they think Brexit is bad for business.
There are loads of "business elite" who vocally support Brexit. James Dyson to start with. He's a manufacturer who struggles a bit in Europe because his machines are even more expensive than Miele, so understandably he looks beyond the EU. Good luck to him. Then there is that bloke Tim from Wetherspoons who I had to endure on Any Questions yet again on Saturday. Then there's that bloke who used to be director of BritCham before the referendum but had to resign (doubtless because many of his members didn't think he was representing them). There are others, all of them elite in terms of background. If they are not the majority, it's not because they are not "elite" enough but because the majority of businesses simply think Brexit is a load of arse.
Southbank did actually identify that the elite he was referring to is made up of academics, business and industry leaders, and Tories.
The reasons why Tim and Dyson support Brexit seems to transcend traditional business sense. Tim saw an opportunity to gain more muster with his clientele. Dyson has been somewhat difficult to pin down on his problems with the EU. He was pro-EU up until 2014. As you say, the competition he faces from the Germans may be why he would like to see the UK break away. He also muttered something about sovereignty but never really expanded on the point. Presumably he thinks that 80% of our laws are made in Brussels by unelected Eurocrats. He also seems to think the EU is stopping him from being able to export to the Far East. Figure that one out.
I don't think he needs to - he makes them out there doesn't he after switching his manufacturing from the UK?
Clearly he's truly committed to the UK post Brexit. Sanctimonious, arrogant twat!
The "LME" slur is not thrown at politicians. It is thrown at everyone who voted Remain.
Southbank is unable to define what he means by "LME" and has no evidence to back up his claim that the majority of business leaders back Remain. He is a fact-free Brexit poster, albeit always cordial. Even if he can prove it, he has to then show how this is because they are "the elite" rather than because they think Brexit is bad for business.
There are loads of "business elite" who vocally support Brexit. James Dyson to start with. He's a manufacturer who struggles a bit in Europe because his machines are even more expensive than Miele, so understandably he looks beyond the EU. Good luck to him. Then there is that bloke Tim from Wetherspoons who I had to endure on Any Questions yet again on Saturday. Then there's that bloke who used to be director of BritCham before the referendum but had to resign (doubtless because many of his members didn't think he was representing them). There are others, all of them elite in terms of background. If they are not the majority, it's not because they are not "elite" enough but because the majority of businesses simply think Brexit is a load of arse.
Your going overboard on this. As far as I'm concerned it's not "elite" to have voted Remain, it's elitism and arrogance for people to base their support for Remain on the plank that remaining in the EU is the only conclusion right thinking people, like intelligent young University educated voters, and @Fiiish, could logically arrive at. I'm not suggesting this applies to you, but it is a line taken frequently by Remain posters.
The "LME" slur is not thrown at politicians. It is thrown at everyone who voted Remain.
Southbank is unable to define what he means by "LME" and has no evidence to back up his claim that the majority of business leaders back Remain. He is a fact-free Brexit poster, albeit always cordial. Even if he can prove it, he has to then show how this is because they are "the elite" rather than because they think Brexit is bad for business.
There are loads of "business elite" who vocally support Brexit. James Dyson to start with. He's a manufacturer who struggles a bit in Europe because his machines are even more expensive than Miele, so understandably he looks beyond the EU. Good luck to him. Then there is that bloke Tim from Wetherspoons who I had to endure on Any Questions yet again on Saturday. Then there's that bloke who used to be director of BritCham before the referendum but had to resign (doubtless because many of his members didn't think he was representing them). There are others, all of them elite in terms of background. If they are not the majority, it's not because they are not "elite" enough but because the majority of businesses simply think Brexit is a load of arse.
Southbank did actually identify that the elite he was referring to is made up of academics, business and industry leaders, and Tories.
The reasons why Tim and Dyson support Brexit seems to transcend traditional business sense. Tim saw an opportunity to gain more muster with his clientele. Dyson has been somewhat difficult to pin down on his problems with the EU. He was pro-EU up until 2014. As you say, the competition he faces from the Germans may be why he would like to see the UK break away. He also muttered something about sovereignty but never really expanded on the point. Presumably he thinks that 80% of our laws are made in Brussels by unelected Eurocrats. He also seems to think the EU is stopping him from being able to export to the Far East. Figure that one out.
I don't think he needs to - he makes them out there doesn't he after switching his manufacturing from the UK?
Clearly he's truly committed to the UK post Brexit. Sanctimonious, arrogant twat!
He’s also benefitted from EU loans I believe in the past
Him being heralded as the great bastion of British manufacturing has gone to his head
That there’s hardly anymore like him is the real problem. We have so few powerhouses in this space that we cling to him like some God
The "LME" slur is not thrown at politicians. It is thrown at everyone who voted Remain.
Southbank is unable to define what he means by "LME" and has no evidence to back up his claim that the majority of business leaders back Remain. He is a fact-free Brexit poster, albeit always cordial. Even if he can prove it, he has to then show how this is because they are "the elite" rather than because they think Brexit is bad for business.
There are loads of "business elite" who vocally support Brexit. James Dyson to start with. He's a manufacturer who struggles a bit in Europe because his machines are even more expensive than Miele, so understandably he looks beyond the EU. Good luck to him. Then there is that bloke Tim from Wetherspoons who I had to endure on Any Questions yet again on Saturday. Then there's that bloke who used to be director of BritCham before the referendum but had to resign (doubtless because many of his members didn't think he was representing them). There are others, all of them elite in terms of background. If they are not the majority, it's not because they are not "elite" enough but because the majority of businesses simply think Brexit is a load of arse.
Your going overboard on this. As far as I'm concerned it's not "elite" to have voted Remain, it's elitism and arrogance for people to base their support for Remain on the plank that remaining in the EU is the only conclusion right thinking people, like intelligent young University educated voters, and @Fiiish, could logically arrive at. I'm not suggesting this applies to you, but it is a line taken frequently by Remain posters.
Err no I have never said that. And if I've ever given that impression allow me to disabuse you of the notion.
The "LME" slur is not thrown at politicians. It is thrown at everyone who voted Remain.
Southbank is unable to define what he means by "LME" and has no evidence to back up his claim that the majority of business leaders back Remain. He is a fact-free Brexit poster, albeit always cordial. Even if he can prove it, he has to then show how this is because they are "the elite" rather than because they think Brexit is bad for business.
There are loads of "business elite" who vocally support Brexit. James Dyson to start with. He's a manufacturer who struggles a bit in Europe because his machines are even more expensive than Miele, so understandably he looks beyond the EU. Good luck to him. Then there is that bloke Tim from Wetherspoons who I had to endure on Any Questions yet again on Saturday. Then there's that bloke who used to be director of BritCham before the referendum but had to resign (doubtless because many of his members didn't think he was representing them). There are others, all of them elite in terms of background. If they are not the majority, it's not because they are not "elite" enough but because the majority of businesses simply think Brexit is a load of arse.
Your going overboard on this. As far as I'm concerned it's not "elite" to have voted Remain, it's elitism and arrogance for people to base their support for Remain on the plank that remaining in the EU is the only conclusion right thinking people, like intelligent young University educated voters, and @Fiiish, could logically arrive at. I'm not suggesting this applies to you, but it is a line taken frequently by Remain posters.
The "LME" slur is not thrown at politicians. It is thrown at everyone who voted Remain.
Southbank is unable to define what he means by "LME" and has no evidence to back up his claim that the majority of business leaders back Remain. He is a fact-free Brexit poster, albeit always cordial. Even if he can prove it, he has to then show how this is because they are "the elite" rather than because they think Brexit is bad for business.
There are loads of "business elite" who vocally support Brexit. James Dyson to start with. He's a manufacturer who struggles a bit in Europe because his machines are even more expensive than Miele, so understandably he looks beyond the EU. Good luck to him. Then there is that bloke Tim from Wetherspoons who I had to endure on Any Questions yet again on Saturday. Then there's that bloke who used to be director of BritCham before the referendum but had to resign (doubtless because many of his members didn't think he was representing them). There are others, all of them elite in terms of background. If they are not the majority, it's not because they are not "elite" enough but because the majority of businesses simply think Brexit is a load of arse.
Your going overboard on this. As far as I'm concerned it's not "elite" to have voted Remain, it's elitism and arrogance for people to base their support for Remain on the plank that remaining in the EU is the only conclusion right thinking people, like intelligent young University educated voters, and @Fiiish, could logically arrive at. I'm not suggesting this applies to you, but it is a line taken frequently by Remain posters.
I have a degree from a long time ago (a Desmond) and even O-Level Maths from the days of slide rules and log books and no calculators (equivalent of a double first in Mathematics from Cambridge these days) so if that is a definition of elite I accept it. I am certainly Metropolitan and mostly Liberal in outlook so as a remainer I definitely fit that profile. But so what? Is the implication that I can't understand the viewpoint of an unemployed person from Jarrow?
Maybe I can't, but the Liberal in me is open to finding out and that is my problem.
The financial positions argue every which way it seems, mainly bad supposedly, but other positions from non metropolitan liberal elites are not really clear. The motivation is as vague and incomprehensible to me as the UK negotiating stance seems to be to the EU.
Is there anybody prepared to explain things like what brexiters want and expect and how the practicalities will be managed? Especially from the point of view of those people somebody like me might have little experience of?
This must confuse people who rely on the Guardian to confirm the expert view that Brexit can only be a disaster for the UK.
IR4 is a real game changer moving forward and the UK is at the forefront in Europe and in a strong position globally.
Digitalisation, AI, IoT, Blockchain, etc will transform the world of trade and many other aspects of our lives.
Are you trying to claim that this revolution would not happen if we stayed in the EU? Somehow the EU would prevent the UK from fully benefiting from this revolution if the UK remained a member?
You lot could cause an argument in a nunnery!
No I didn’t claim that at all. READ MY POST AGAIN.
It says nothing about Brexit. I am commenting on IR4 because a link had been posted about the subject.
Sometimes people on here try too hard to object to my posts.
The "LME" slur is not thrown at politicians. It is thrown at everyone who voted Remain.
Southbank is unable to define what he means by "LME" and has no evidence to back up his claim that the majority of business leaders back Remain. He is a fact-free Brexit poster, albeit always cordial. Even if he can prove it, he has to then show how this is because they are "the elite" rather than because they think Brexit is bad for business.
There are loads of "business elite" who vocally support Brexit. James Dyson to start with. He's a manufacturer who struggles a bit in Europe because his machines are even more expensive than Miele, so understandably he looks beyond the EU. Good luck to him. Then there is that bloke Tim from Wetherspoons who I had to endure on Any Questions yet again on Saturday. Then there's that bloke who used to be director of BritCham before the referendum but had to resign (doubtless because many of his members didn't think he was representing them). There are others, all of them elite in terms of background. If they are not the majority, it's not because they are not "elite" enough but because the majority of businesses simply think Brexit is a load of arse.
Your going overboard on this. As far as I'm concerned it's not "elite" to have voted Remain, it's elitism and arrogance for people to base their support for Remain on the plank that remaining in the EU is the only conclusion right thinking people, like intelligent young University educated voters, and @Fiiish, could logically arrive at. I'm not suggesting this applies to you, but it is a line taken frequently by Remain posters.
I have to admit, I can hardly stop myself from saying just that, no matter what the circumstance.
I'd like to say that it is a remarkably effective chat up line....
It has just come to my attention that William Hague wrote in the Telegraph last week railing against elites trying to overturn Brexit.
That's right, grammar school educated, former president of both the Oxford University Conservative Association and the Oxford Union, leader of the Tory Party and Foreign Secretary, wrote in a paper owned by the billionaire Barclays, moaning about elites.
This must confuse people who rely on the Guardian to confirm the expert view that Brexit can only be a disaster for the UK.
IR4 is a real game changer moving forward and the UK is at the forefront in Europe and in a strong position globally.
Digitalisation, AI, IoT, Blockchain, etc will transform the world of trade and many other aspects of our lives.
Are you trying to claim that this revolution would not happen if we stayed in the EU? Somehow the EU would prevent the UK from fully benefiting from this revolution if the UK remained a member?
I don't think stonemuse was saying that. Although I imagine his perception of how the EU impacts the UK might mean that the post-Brexit boons will be even greater than if we stayed in the EU.
I think the Walter Mitty who posted the link in the first place is suggesting that any good economic news post June 2016 is because of Brexit, as opposed to in spite of, which would be the more accurate view. Or that those of us who voted Remain are all Guardian readers and never acknowledge any good news. Which is patently absurd but par for the course at this point.
Said it would be confusing didn't I.
What I was suggesting, but wouldn't expect @Fiiish to have picked up on it, is that being a slave to economic projections that are unable to factor in unknown developments in markets, science and technology beyond 12 months may not be very reliable predictions of absolute economic growth over 20 years. Whether or not the developments reported come to pass, or whether down to Brexit or not, the fact is that no one knows and it is ridiculous to believe that anyone is in a position to predict what economic developments will occur, merely that there will be developments.
The reports commissioned by the government pre the referendum, which calculated an exact negative GDP impact over 20 years and assumed "all other things being equal" was, by definition, unable to factor in any future unknowns, let alone the eventual shape of Brexit. Yet these predictions, presented as facts produced by experts, yet in truth stochastic mumbo jumbo, influenced the vast majority of those who voted Remain.
This talk of elites and power is simply a continuation of the disruptive "anti-establishment" agenda promoted by the backers of Brexit and Trump. End of!
"I think people are fed up of experts" Gove "I love the less well educated" Trump
Some are waking up to who has funded this and we can be sure there's a lot more as yet undiscovered.
I think the link which people on both sides of this discussion are missing is this: Henry VIII powers to repeal EU regs without oversight + 4th IR + big business global outlook = a powerful case to back and fund Brexit.
What does this mean?
Quite simply any major player in any sector Eg driverless cars / Uber will be able to put together an innovative package to accelerate the UK to the front of global innovation by developing a service / product whilst lobbying Westminster (not Brussels) to fast track the neccesary licensing and regulation to make such innovation possible. Sounds exciting but this basically hands regulatory control to a very narrow elite.
The uber wealthy and those with nothing to lose have formed a coalition in an attempt to make this happen - same in the US - same in Catalonia!
"Take back control" is what it has always been about - but not for the voters who supported leave! One doesn't have to well versed in futurology to understand that there are massive changes just around the corner in road travel, health, AI, robotics etc. The EU has been pilloried as undemocratic and full of regulations but this might well be because global players have a challenge to convince the Brussels people to accommodate changes? Anybody watching the centre left Saddiq Khan toying with Uber can see what I am trying to communicate here.
What is unfortunate is the lies peddled around concerning the collapse of the Euro, the Italian economy and the imminent invasion of Britain by 500 million European citizens plus of cours 90 million Turks who were "about to join the EU". And the naked xenophobia which is now leading to EU citizens leaving the UK.
The irony is that the Eurozone economy is flourishing whilst Italy has just had its credit rating raised. For Italy has dealt with the worst of the banking difficulties - clearing up some 25% of the non performing loan issues this year - that would be around €75Bn which has been recovered, sold, converted to performing or placed in an Italian "bad bank scenario". It would appear that a decent Q4 in Italy might deliver higher growth than the UK for 2017?
There is a much wider debate that goes beyond this thread and Brexit - basically who is the innovation for, who will reap the benefits and will the major European economies (including the UK receive there share of taxes on profits generated.
Not for me to say whether this is right or wrong but the banter about the definition of elites is somewhat missing the point. Just as people talking of subverting democracy to force Brexit through. The people funding Brexit - including a Saudi donor paying money to Scotland which landed with the DUP to then spend on full cover adds on the London metro - did so for a reason.
It is up to the people and Parliament to now decide what type of Brexit they wish to see, always subject to the appetite of the EU27 and the constraints of what is possible with the Irish border. And people may want to consider whether they want the EU27 to regulate matters or leave it to the current government in Westminster. And all that as the latest scandal about sexual harrasment breaks while the talks to rekindle the assembly at Stormont are completely stalled.
As posted before, for me it matters not whether we remain in the EU. However remaining in the CU/SM/EEA for a few years appears to be the most sensible option and has the benefit of sidelining the hard Brexit mob. It's not just the fabrications that should bother us but the fact that they are entirely happy to cohabit with the far right elements which the rest of Europe are boycotting. And that perhaps is how the EU might influence the UK?
This must confuse people who rely on the Guardian to confirm the expert view that Brexit can only be a disaster for the UK.
IR4 is a real game changer moving forward and the UK is at the forefront in Europe and in a strong position globally.
Digitalisation, AI, IoT, Blockchain, etc will transform the world of trade and many other aspects of our lives.
Are you trying to claim that this revolution would not happen if we stayed in the EU? Somehow the EU would prevent the UK from fully benefiting from this revolution if the UK remained a member?
I don't think stonemuse was saying that. Although I imagine his perception of how the EU impacts the UK might mean that the post-Brexit boons will be even greater than if we stayed in the EU.
I think the Walter Mitty who posted the link in the first place is suggesting that any good economic news post June 2016 is because of Brexit, as opposed to in spite of, which would be the more accurate view. Or that those of us who voted Remain are all Guardian readers and never acknowledge any good news. Which is patently absurd but par for the course at this point.
Said it would be confusing didn't I.
What I was suggesting, but wouldn't expect @Fiiish to have picked up on it, is that being a slave to economic projections that are unable to factor in unknown developments in markets, science and technology beyond 12 months may not be very reliable predictions of absolute economic growth over 20 years. Whether or not the developments reported come to pass, or whether down to Brexit or not, the fact is that no one knows and it is ridiculous to believe that anyone is in a position to predict what economic developments will occur, merely that there will be developments.
The reports commissioned by the government pre the referendum, which calculated an exact negative GDP impact over 20 years and assumed "all other things being equal" was, by definition, unable to factor in any future unknowns, let alone the eventual shape of Brexit. Yet these predictions, presented as facts produced by experts, yet in truth stochastic mumbo jumbo, influenced the vast majority of those who voted Remain.
This must confuse people who rely on the Guardian to confirm the expert view that Brexit can only be a disaster for the UK.
IR4 is a real game changer moving forward and the UK is at the forefront in Europe and in a strong position globally.
Digitalisation, AI, IoT, Blockchain, etc will transform the world of trade and many other aspects of our lives.
Are you trying to claim that this revolution would not happen if we stayed in the EU? Somehow the EU would prevent the UK from fully benefiting from this revolution if the UK remained a member?
I don't think stonemuse was saying that. Although I imagine his perception of how the EU impacts the UK might mean that the post-Brexit boons will be even greater than if we stayed in the EU.
I think the Walter Mitty who posted the link in the first place is suggesting that any good economic news post June 2016 is because of Brexit, as opposed to in spite of, which would be the more accurate view. Or that those of us who voted Remain are all Guardian readers and never acknowledge any good news. Which is patently absurd but par for the course at this point.
Said it would be confusing didn't I.
What I was suggesting, but wouldn't expect Fiiish to have picked up on it, is that being a slave to economic projections that are unable to factor in unknown developments in markets, science and technology beyond 12 months may not be very reliable predictions of absolute economic growth over 20 years. Whether or not the developments reported come to pass, or whether down to Brexit or not, the fact is that no one knows and it is ridiculous to believe that anyone is in a position to predict what economic developments will occur, merely that there will be developments.
The reports commissioned by the government pre the referendum, which calculated an exact negative GDP impact over 20 years and assumed "all other things being equal" was, by definition, unable to factor in any future unknowns, let alone the eventual shape of Brexit. Yet these predictions, presented as facts produced by experts, yet in truth stochastic mumbo jumbo, influenced the vast majority of those who voted Remain.
Didn't influence me though. Of course economists can't make meaningful economic predictions for the long term. Most aren't even able to make accurate predictions over a course of a year.
I didn't vote remain because predictions for the economy were so clear, but because I did not trust anyone in a position of power to be able to deliver Brexit without causing severe harm to our economic confidence. The indicators of this confidence have more or less proven me right to hold this belief, as do most Leavers who seem to think the government is intentionally screwing up Brexit.
I'm not sure why you pretend you are any more enlightened than anyone else here. Your continuous record of getting basic facts wrong undermines this posturing. And don't pretend your posts are beyond my comprehension; just because you're a poor writer doesn't mean most people can't still glean the gist of your drivel.
@Fiiish ........we are on the same side of the debate on the Brexit debate but I have to say although you continue to make the anti Brexit case eloquently and vigorously, when replying to Dippenhall you now completely undermine your good arguments with gratuitous personal abuse towards him in every post. If you just stick to the rebuttal of the points he makes I am sure he would stop replying in kind with personal abuse towards you.
This must confuse people who rely on the Guardian to confirm the expert view that Brexit can only be a disaster for the UK.
IR4 is a real game changer moving forward and the UK is at the forefront in Europe and in a strong position globally.
Digitalisation, AI, IoT, Blockchain, etc will transform the world of trade and many other aspects of our lives.
Are you trying to claim that this revolution would not happen if we stayed in the EU? Somehow the EU would prevent the UK from fully benefiting from this revolution if the UK remained a member?
I don't think stonemuse was saying that. Although I imagine his perception of how the EU impacts the UK might mean that the post-Brexit boons will be even greater than if we stayed in the EU.
I think the Walter Mitty who posted the link in the first place is suggesting that any good economic news post June 2016 is because of Brexit, as opposed to in spite of, which would be the more accurate view. Or that those of us who voted Remain are all Guardian readers and never acknowledge any good news. Which is patently absurd but par for the course at this point.
Said it would be confusing didn't I.
What I was suggesting, but wouldn't expect Fiiish to have picked up on it, is that being a slave to economic projections that are unable to factor in unknown developments in markets, science and technology beyond 12 months may not be very reliable predictions of absolute economic growth over 20 years. Whether or not the developments reported come to pass, or whether down to Brexit or not, the fact is that no one knows and it is ridiculous to believe that anyone is in a position to predict what economic developments will occur, merely that there will be developments.
The reports commissioned by the government pre the referendum, which calculated an exact negative GDP impact over 20 years and assumed "all other things being equal" was, by definition, unable to factor in any future unknowns, let alone the eventual shape of Brexit. Yet these predictions, presented as facts produced by experts, yet in truth stochastic mumbo jumbo, influenced the vast majority of those who voted Remain.
Didn't influence me though. Of course economists can't make meaningful economic predictions for the long term. Most aren't even able to make accurate predictions over a course of a year.
I didn't vote remain because predictions for the economy were so clear, but because I did not trust anyone in a position of power to be able to deliver Brexit without causing severe harm to our economic confidence. The indicators of this confidence have more or less proven me right to hold this belief, as do most Leavers who seem to think the government is intentionally screwing up Brexit.
I'm not sure why you pretend you are any more enlightened than anyone else here. Your continuous record of getting basic facts wrong undermines this posturing. And don't pretend your posts are beyond my comprehension; just because you're a poor writer doesn't mean most people can't still glean the gist of your drivel.
I don’t think for one minute that May & Davis are deliberately screwing up Brexit. I give you that the facts might point a cynic to that belief but May wants to take us out. I think she’s deluded enough to believe she can deliver a Brexit and take her place in history. Davis is just deluded.
This talk of elites and power is simply a continuation of the disruptive "anti-establishment" agenda promoted by the backers of Brexit and Trump. End of!
"I think people are fed up of experts" Gove "I love the less well educated" Trump
Some are waking up to who has funded this and we can be sure there's a lot more as yet undiscovered.
I think the link which people on both sides of this discussion are missing is this: Henry VIII powers to repeal EU regs without oversight + 4th IR + big business global outlook = a powerful case to back and fund Brexit.
What does this mean?
Quite simply any major player in any sector Eg driverless cars / Uber will be able to put together an innovative package to accelerate the UK to the front of global innovation by developing a service / product whilst lobbying Westminster (not Brussels) to fast track the neccesary licensing and regulation to make such innovation possible. Sounds exciting but this basically hands regulatory control to a very narrow elite.
The uber wealthy and those with nothing to lose have formed a coalition in an attempt to make this happen - same in the US - same in Catalonia!
"Take back control" is what it has always been about - but not for the voters who supported leave! One doesn't have to well versed in futurology to understand that there are massive changes just around the corner in road travel, health, AI, robotics etc. The EU has been pilloried as undemocratic and full of regulations but this might well be because global players have a challenge to convince the Brussels people to accommodate changes? Anybody watching the centre left Saddiq Khan toying with Uber can see what I am trying to communicate here.
What is unfortunate is the lies peddled around concerning the collapse of the Euro, the Italian economy and the imminent invasion of Britain by 500 million European citizens plus of cours 90 million Turks who were "about to join the EU". And the naked xenophobia which is now leading to EU citizens leaving the UK.
The irony is that the Eurozone economy is flourishing whilst Italy has just had its credit rating raised. For Italy has dealt with the worst of the banking difficulties - clearing up some 25% of the non performing loan issues this year - that would be around €75Bn which has been recovered, sold, converted to performing or placed in an Italian "bad bank scenario". It would appear that a decent Q4 in Italy might deliver higher growth than the UK for 2017?
There is a much wider debate that goes beyond this thread and Brexit - basically who is the innovation for, who will reap the benefits and will the major European economies (including the UK receive there share of taxes on profits generated.
Not for me to say whether this is right or wrong but the banter about the definition of elites is somewhat missing the point. Just as people talking of subverting democracy to force Brexit through. The people funding Brexit - including a Saudi donor paying money to Scotland which landed with the DUP to then spend on full cover adds on the London metro - did so for a reason.
It is up to the people and Parliament to now decide what type of Brexit they wish to see, always subject to the appetite of the EU27 and the constraints of what is possible with the Irish border. And people may want to consider whether they want the EU27 to regulate matters or leave it to the current government in Westminster. And all that as the latest scandal about sexual harrasment breaks while the talks to rekindle the assembly at Stormont are completely stalled.
As posted before, for me it matters not whether we remain in the EU. However remaining in the CU/SM/EEA for a few years appears to be the most sensible option and has the benefit of sidelining the hard Brexit mob. It's not just the fabrications that should bother us but the fact that they are entirely happy to cohabit with the far right elements which the rest of Europe are boycotting. And that perhaps is how the EU might influence the UK?
Exactly. I have been called a Metropolitan Elite to my face several times over the last 18 months. I am not offended by it and it is certainly not a slur. It is a meme/term now used by powerful anti progressive movements in their media outlets to appeal to their base in the US (Trump) and Western Europe (Brexit, anti EU).
It is no more a slur than 'snowflake', 'pc', 'swivel eyed looney'. It just another political pejorative term that packs a lot more weight than the words that make up the term.
This talk of elites and power is simply a continuation of the disruptive "anti-establishment" agenda promoted by the backers of Brexit and Trump. End of!
"I think people are fed up of experts" Gove "I love the less well educated" Trump
Some are waking up to who has funded this and we can be sure there's a lot more as yet undiscovered.
I think the link which people on both sides of this discussion are missing is this: Henry VIII powers to repeal EU regs without oversight + 4th IR + big business global outlook = a powerful case to back and fund Brexit.
What does this mean?
Quite simply any major player in any sector Eg driverless cars / Uber will be able to put together an innovative package to accelerate the UK to the front of global innovation by developing a service / product whilst lobbying Westminster (not Brussels) to fast track the neccesary licensing and regulation to make such innovation possible. Sounds exciting but this basically hands regulatory control to a very narrow elite.
The uber wealthy and those with nothing to lose have formed a coalition in an attempt to make this happen - same in the US - same in Catalonia!
"Take back control" is what it has always been about - but not for the voters who supported leave! One doesn't have to well versed in futurology to understand that there are massive changes just around the corner in road travel, health, AI, robotics etc. The EU has been pilloried as undemocratic and full of regulations but this might well be because global players have a challenge to convince the Brussels people to accommodate changes? Anybody watching the centre left Saddiq Khan toying with Uber can see what I am trying to communicate here.
What is unfortunate is the lies peddled around concerning the collapse of the Euro, the Italian economy and the imminent invasion of Britain by 500 million European citizens plus of cours 90 million Turks who were "about to join the EU". And the naked xenophobia which is now leading to EU citizens leaving the UK.
The irony is that the Eurozone economy is flourishing whilst Italy has just had its credit rating raised. For Italy has dealt with the worst of the banking difficulties - clearing up some 25% of the non performing loan issues this year - that would be around €75Bn which has been recovered, sold, converted to performing or placed in an Italian "bad bank scenario". It would appear that a decent Q4 in Italy might deliver higher growth than the UK for 2017?
There is a much wider debate that goes beyond this thread and Brexit - basically who is the innovation for, who will reap the benefits and will the major European economies (including the UK receive there share of taxes on profits generated.
Not for me to say whether this is right or wrong but the banter about the definition of elites is somewhat missing the point. Just as people talking of subverting democracy to force Brexit through. The people funding Brexit - including a Saudi donor paying money to Scotland which landed with the DUP to then spend on full cover adds on the London metro - did so for a reason.
It is up to the people and Parliament to now decide what type of Brexit they wish to see, always subject to the appetite of the EU27 and the constraints of what is possible with the Irish border. And people may want to consider whether they want the EU27 to regulate matters or leave it to the current government in Westminster. And all that as the latest scandal about sexual harrasment breaks while the talks to rekindle the assembly at Stormont are completely stalled.
As posted before, for me it matters not whether we remain in the EU. However remaining in the CU/SM/EEA for a few years appears to be the most sensible option and has the benefit of sidelining the hard Brexit mob. It's not just the fabrications that should bother us but the fact that they are entirely happy to cohabit with the far right elements which the rest of Europe are boycotting. And that perhaps is how the EU might influence the UK?
Exactly. I have been called a Metropolitan Elite to my face several times over the last 18 months. I am not offended by it and it is certainly not a slur. It is a meme/term now used by powerful anti progressive movements in their media outlets to appeal to their base in the US (Trump) and Western Europe (Brexit, anti EU).
It is no more a slur than 'snowflake', 'pc', 'swivel eyed looney'. It just another political pejorative term that packs a lot more weight than the words that make up the term.
I’ve never been called a member of the Metropolitan Elite and would welcome the chance.
Comments
Digitalisation, AI, IoT, Blockchain, etc will transform the world of trade and many other aspects of our lives.
Recent history suggests that the UK has not always managed to retain a leading position where technology is involved.
And, in my anti-Brexit dig, whether rightly or wrongly, there is a perception in Europe at least that the UK is less welcoming a place than before - which may have a knock-on effect on the ability of firms and research organisations to draw in the best talent in the future.
Indeed it depresses me that folk on both sides go on about future financial disaster or future financial benefits.
Getting richer or poorer will not compensate for becoming less democratic, more insular, and any anti-'foreign' culture gaining strength by the UK formally withdrawing from an organisation that gives many of us hope and opportunity.
And there is the issue of the land border on the island of Ireland and Gibraltar.
People who think as I do may be in a minority, but there are some of us who are not excited by the money, and just as some brexiters say they would be happy to be poorer to leave the EU, I would be happy to be poorer to stay in.
While I do not believe that the UK Government is likely to choose the Irish Sea as the de facto border, there are those attempting to make a case for it: https://irishtimes.com/opinion/andy-pollak-vacuous-brexit-talk-could-yield-to-creative-solution-1.3273179.
I think the Walter Mitty who posted the link in the first place is suggesting that any good economic news post June 2016 is because of Brexit, as opposed to in spite of, which would be the more accurate view. Or that those of us who voted Remain are all Guardian readers and never acknowledge any good news. Which is patently absurd but par for the course at this point.
The "LME" slur is not thrown at politicians. It is thrown at everyone who voted Remain.
Southbank is unable to define what he means by "LME" and has no evidence to back up his claim that the majority of business leaders back Remain. He is a fact-free Brexit poster, albeit always cordial. Even if he can prove it, he has to then show how this is because they are "the elite" rather than because they think Brexit is bad for business.
There are loads of "business elite" who vocally support Brexit. James Dyson to start with. He's a manufacturer who struggles a bit in Europe because his machines are even more expensive than Miele, so understandably he looks beyond the EU. Good luck to him. Then there is that bloke Tim from Wetherspoons who I had to endure on Any Questions yet again on Saturday. Then there's that bloke who used to be director of BritCham before the referendum but had to resign (doubtless because many of his members didn't think he was representing them). There are others, all of them elite in terms of background. If they are not the majority, it's not because they are not "elite" enough but because the majority of businesses simply think Brexit is a load of arse.
What I don’t quite understand is why this is being portrayed as some kind of justification for Brexit. The fact that this revolution is on the horizon is regardless of whether the UK is part of the eu or not. It would be just as important for our economy either way.
As far as I’m aware, eu membership doesn’t prevent or constrain any of its member economies from taking advantage of technology or expanding markets.
Whatever the UK has to offer to the world markets is not held back by eu membership.
Right now the biggest growth area for the sale of German cars is China. That is an emerging market that Germany is able to exploit. Why anyone thinks that Brexit makes it easier for the UK to sell the no doubt soon to be resurrected Austin Allegro to the Chinese I cannot understand.
The reasons why Tim and Dyson support Brexit seems to transcend traditional business sense. Tim saw an opportunity to gain more muster with his clientele. Dyson has been somewhat difficult to pin down on his problems with the EU. He was pro-EU up until 2014. As you say, the competition he faces from the Germans may be why he would like to see the UK break away. He also muttered something about sovereignty but never really expanded on the point. Presumably he thinks that 80% of our laws are made in Brussels by unelected Eurocrats. He also seems to think the EU is stopping him from being able to export to the Far East. Figure that one out.
Clearly he's truly committed to the UK post Brexit. Sanctimonious, arrogant twat!
Him being heralded as the great bastion of British manufacturing has gone to his head
That there’s hardly anymore like him is the real problem. We have so few powerhouses in this space that we cling to him like some God
But so what?
Is the implication that I can't understand the viewpoint of an unemployed person from Jarrow?
Maybe I can't, but the Liberal in me is open to finding out and that is my problem.
The financial positions argue every which way it seems, mainly bad supposedly, but other positions from non metropolitan liberal elites are not really clear.
The motivation is as vague and incomprehensible to me as the UK negotiating stance seems to be to the EU.
Is there anybody prepared to explain things like what brexiters want and expect and how the practicalities will be managed? Especially from the point of view of those people somebody like me might have little experience of?
No I didn’t claim that at all. READ MY POST AGAIN.
It says nothing about Brexit. I am commenting on IR4 because a link had been posted about the subject.
Sometimes people on here try too hard to object to my posts.
I'd like to say that it is a remarkably effective chat up line....
Honestly, I would.
That's right, grammar school educated, former president of both the Oxford University Conservative Association and the Oxford Union, leader of the Tory Party and Foreign Secretary, wrote in a paper owned by the billionaire Barclays, moaning about elites.
Said it would be confusing didn't I.
What I was suggesting, but wouldn't expect @Fiiish to have picked up on it, is that being a slave to economic projections that are unable to factor in unknown developments in markets, science and technology beyond 12 months may not be very reliable predictions of absolute economic growth over 20 years. Whether or not the developments reported come to pass, or whether down to Brexit or not, the fact is that no one knows and it is ridiculous to believe that anyone is in a position to predict what economic developments will occur, merely that there will be developments.
The reports commissioned by the government pre the referendum, which calculated an exact negative GDP impact over 20 years and assumed "all other things being equal" was, by definition, unable to factor in any future unknowns, let alone the eventual shape of Brexit. Yet these predictions, presented as facts produced by experts, yet in truth stochastic mumbo jumbo, influenced the vast majority of those who voted Remain.
"I think people are fed up of experts" Gove
"I love the less well educated" Trump
Some are waking up to who has funded this and we can be sure there's a lot more as yet undiscovered.
I think the link which people on both sides of this discussion are missing is this: Henry VIII powers to repeal EU regs without oversight + 4th IR + big business global outlook = a powerful case to back and fund Brexit.
What does this mean?
Quite simply any major player in any sector Eg driverless cars / Uber will be able to put together an innovative package to accelerate the UK to the front of global innovation by developing a service / product whilst lobbying Westminster (not Brussels) to fast track the neccesary licensing and regulation to make such innovation possible. Sounds exciting but this basically hands regulatory control to a very narrow elite.
The uber wealthy and those with nothing to lose have formed a coalition in an attempt to make this happen - same in the US - same in Catalonia!
"Take back control" is what it has always been about - but not for the voters who supported leave! One doesn't have to well versed in futurology to understand that there are massive changes just around the corner in road travel, health, AI, robotics etc. The EU has been pilloried as undemocratic and full of regulations but this might well be because global players have a challenge to convince the Brussels people to accommodate changes? Anybody watching the centre left Saddiq Khan toying with Uber can see what I am trying to communicate here.
What is unfortunate is the lies peddled around concerning the collapse of the Euro, the Italian economy and the imminent invasion of Britain by 500 million European citizens plus of cours 90 million Turks who were "about to join the EU". And the naked xenophobia which is now leading to EU citizens leaving the UK.
The irony is that the Eurozone economy is flourishing whilst Italy has just had its credit rating raised. For Italy has dealt with the worst of the banking difficulties - clearing up some 25% of the non performing loan issues this year - that would be around €75Bn which has been recovered, sold, converted to performing or placed in an Italian "bad bank scenario". It would appear that a decent Q4 in Italy might deliver higher growth than the UK for 2017?
There is a much wider debate that goes beyond this thread and Brexit - basically who is the innovation for, who will reap the benefits and will the major European economies (including the UK receive there share of taxes on profits generated.
Not for me to say whether this is right or wrong but the banter about the definition of elites is somewhat missing the point. Just as people talking of subverting democracy to force Brexit through. The people funding Brexit - including a Saudi donor paying money to Scotland which landed with the DUP to then spend on full cover adds on the London metro - did so for a reason.
It is up to the people and Parliament to now decide what type of Brexit they wish to see, always subject to the appetite of the EU27 and the constraints of what is possible with the Irish border. And people may want to consider whether they want the EU27 to regulate matters or leave it to the current government in Westminster. And all that as the latest scandal about sexual harrasment breaks while the talks to rekindle the assembly at Stormont are completely stalled.
As posted before, for me it matters not whether we remain in the EU. However remaining in the CU/SM/EEA for a few years appears to be the most sensible option and has the benefit of sidelining the hard Brexit mob. It's not just the fabrications that should bother us but the fact that they are entirely happy to cohabit with the far right elements which the rest of Europe are boycotting. And that perhaps is how the EU might influence the UK?
I didn't vote remain because predictions for the economy were so clear, but because I did not trust anyone in a position of power to be able to deliver Brexit without causing severe harm to our economic confidence. The indicators of this confidence have more or less proven me right to hold this belief, as do most Leavers who seem to think the government is intentionally screwing up Brexit.
I'm not sure why you pretend you are any more enlightened than anyone else here. Your continuous record of getting basic facts wrong undermines this posturing. And don't pretend your posts are beyond my comprehension; just because you're a poor writer doesn't mean most people can't still glean the gist of your drivel.
It is no more a slur than 'snowflake', 'pc', 'swivel eyed looney'. It just another political pejorative term that packs a lot more weight than the words that make up the term.