The government of any country has a responsibility to all those that live there not just those that care to exercise their right to vote. Should you not vote it doesn’t make your existence any less important than those that do. Every indicator point to Brexit as a bad thing for the country as a whole. That our elected representatives care to be in dereliction of their responsibility in rejecting all the evidence and plough on regardless into unknown waters based on a ridiculous referendum fed with lies and mistruths by the likes of Farage, Johnson, Gove, Fox and JRM is arguably criminal.
Every piece of evidence suggests Trump is a bad president, does that mean he should be booted out? Or is democracy honored?
He will be in 2 or 6 years time, unless impeached beforehand.
Please point me in the direction of how we undo Brexit at the polls afterwards, or during through legal challenge? Or is Brexit unique in democratic history as being a one time only deal, impossible to change through any democratic or legal process?
Seems to me that Brexit is like a one time vote to appoint a (hopefully benevolent) dictator for life. How long into their reign does it stops becoming a democracy?
By the same token, we were taken into the EU, or EEC as it was then, by Ted Heath without a referendum. Was that forever and irreversible? 40 years later it would appear not.
The government of any country has a responsibility to all those that live there not just those that care to exercise their right to vote. Should you not vote it doesn’t make your existence any less important than those that do. Every indicator point to Brexit as a bad thing for the country as a whole. That our elected representatives care to be in dereliction of their responsibility in rejecting all the evidence and plough on regardless into unknown waters based on a ridiculous referendum fed with lies and mistruths by the likes of Farage, Johnson, Gove, Fox and JRM is arguably criminal.
Every piece of evidence suggests Trump is a bad president, does that mean he should be booted out? Or is democracy honored?
He will be in 2 or 6 years time, unless impeached beforehand.
Please point me in the direction of how we undo Brexit at the polls afterwards, or during through legal challenge? Or is Brexit unique in democratic history as being a one time only deal, impossible to change through any democratic or legal process?
Seems to me that Brexit is like a one time vote to appoint a (hopefully benevolent) dictator for life. How long into their reign does it stops becoming a democracy?
By the same token, we were taken into the EU, or EEC as it was then, by Ted Heath without a referendum. Was that forever and irreversible? 40 years later it would appear not.
For better or worse we live in a representative democracy - no place for referendums - either in 1975 or 2016.
The government of any country has a responsibility to all those that live there not just those that care to exercise their right to vote. Should you not vote it doesn’t make your existence any less important than those that do. Every indicator point to Brexit as a bad thing for the country as a whole. That our elected representatives care to be in dereliction of their responsibility in rejecting all the evidence and plough on regardless into unknown waters based on a ridiculous referendum fed with lies and mistruths by the likes of Farage, Johnson, Gove, Fox and JRM is arguably criminal.
Every piece of evidence suggests Trump is a bad president, does that mean he should be booted out? Or is democracy honored?
He will be in 2 or 6 years time, unless impeached beforehand.
Please point me in the direction of how we undo Brexit at the polls afterwards, or during through legal challenge? Or is Brexit unique in democratic history as being a one time only deal, impossible to change through any democratic or legal process?
Seems to me that Brexit is like a one time vote to appoint a (hopefully benevolent) dictator for life. How long into their reign does it stops becoming a democracy?
By the same token, we were taken into the EU, or EEC as it was then, by Ted Heath without a referendum. Was that forever and irreversible? 40 years later it would appear not.
For better or worse we live in a representative democracy - no place for referendums - either in 1975 or 2016.
Indeed. Personally, I believe the Brexit referendum was an abdication of parliament's responsibility, all just to suit the needs of the conservative party.
Once the UK joined in with a wider European community it became a participant in subsequent events, not simply a place affected by those events. Up.until.very recently they were in fact us. For a start one example would be the EU in relation to Greece. If there is to be criticism of that dynamic then it is as much a criticism of the UK as the EU. Some of the rhetoric on here suggests the UK was in thrall to the EU, when in fact the UK was happy to set up it's tent in the EU field in a spot just as sunny as any other.
Once the UK joined in with a wider European community it became a participant in subsequent events, not simply a place affected by those events. Up.until.very recently they were in fact us. For a start one example would be the EU in relation to Greece. If there is to be criticism of that dynamic then it is as much a criticism of the UK as the EU. Some of the rhetoric on here suggests the UK was in thrall to the EU, when in fact the UK was happy to set up it's tent in the EU field in a spot just as sunny as any other.
It is a long running theme, of not only the Brexit debate, but of the political classes throughout my lifetime and the narrative of the Daily Mail, Express etc. They have never seen us as part of the EU. It is not a club we're in to them. There is us and there is them, they are separate and distinct. They tell us what to do, and we do it, like we're not part of the EU, and have no say in the decision making process.
You try to explain that it's a club, and we're all members, and we make decisions together. You can even point out that via our many vetos, we have a disproportionate amount of influence over the way the club is run and the rules it makes. But it falls on deaf ears and always will. They will never see it as us all being in this together, it will alway be us and them, and if they won't do what we want, then we will leave.
It's a childish attitude on may levels, a refusal to accept that there is give and take, that more can be achieved by working as a group. It explains the way the negotiations have gone. We tell the EU we want this and that, no understanding or caring what the rules of the club, rules that we helped right, allow. We want what we want and they must agree. We are not only leaving and taking our ball with us, we are trying to tell them what games they are allowed to play once we have left.
Though of course we aren't telling them much at all, like a child we say we want dinner, but then turn down everything offered, and demand food that isn't in the house, or plain doesn't exists.
It's all a bit farcical, and would be laughable if it wasn't damaging all our futures, We have a border issue that essentially has 3 parties involved and every solution will only keep 2 of the 3 happy. We have a trade issue whereby we are walking away from our biggest trading partners and hoping to make up the difference by replacing them with partners who have a tiny fraction of the GDP, or will makes demands on us (looking your way Trump) that will make us all poorer, whilst damaging further our trading relationship with the EU.
We'll give up the myriad of consumer and environmental protects the EU offers, and hope Rees-Mogg and his ilk will be charitable and protect us in the anything like the same way (now that is the height of folly, the Tory right has shown time and time again that they will happily screw the UK population, with the occasional meagre morsel thrown our way just before election time to get in for another term).
Telly Tubby wrote: "The IMF is now telling us that the UK will suffer as a direct result of any Brexit, LBC reported that they said that the EU would suffer in the event of a no deal Brexit too. At the same time 5 Live news only reported the IMF issuing dire warnings about the UK. I haven't come across any other mainstream media outlet reporting that both sides will suffer."
Why would your average quitter give a monkeys about the effects on the rest of the EU, most of them don't care about the effects on their own kids?
My kids although in their 20's, both with degrees and with professional careers could not be bothered to vote. As did a lot of their friends. This future lost for them rubbish is too often spouted out in desperation. They were even given extended time to register by a desperate remain government . As it turns out one have voted out and one in, so negated.
Whether they could be bothered to vote or not has no bearing whatsoever on whether the 'future [is] lost for them'. Your argument is entirely false.
I suspect that many of those who couldn't bother to vote, believed that the country would never make such a reckless decision. Another reason why the 'yes' vote does not reflect the true views of society.
Most of those that could not be bothered to vote now have an opinion so you saying my argument is false is of course entirely false. As is those that keep using it....its as old an outdated as Robin Hood.
Telly Tubby wrote: "The IMF is now telling us that the UK will suffer as a direct result of any Brexit, LBC reported that they said that the EU would suffer in the event of a no deal Brexit too. At the same time 5 Live news only reported the IMF issuing dire warnings about the UK. I haven't come across any other mainstream media outlet reporting that both sides will suffer."
Why would your average quitter give a monkeys about the effects on the rest of the EU, most of them don't care about the effects on their own kids?
My kids although in their 20's, both with degrees and with professional careers could not be bothered to vote. As did a lot of their friends. This future lost for them rubbish is too often spouted out in desperation. They were even given extended time to register by a desperate remain government . As it turns out one have voted out and one in, so negated.
Whether they could be bothered to vote or not has no bearing whatsoever on whether the 'future [is] lost for them'. Your argument is entirely false.
I suspect that many of those who couldn't bother to vote, believed that the country would never make such a reckless decision. Another reason why the 'yes' vote does not reflect the true views of society.
Your last statement is ridiculous. They had the opportunity to vote they chose not too you cant back date, Just like an election, you dont vote you lose your right to have a say.
Telly Tubby wrote: "The IMF is now telling us that the UK will suffer as a direct result of any Brexit, LBC reported that they said that the EU would suffer in the event of a no deal Brexit too. At the same time 5 Live news only reported the IMF issuing dire warnings about the UK. I haven't come across any other mainstream media outlet reporting that both sides will suffer."
Why would your average quitter give a monkeys about the effects on the rest of the EU, most of them don't care about the effects on their own kids?
My kids although in their 20's, both with degrees and with professional careers could not be bothered to vote. As did a lot of their friends. This future lost for them rubbish is too often spouted out in desperation. They were even given extended time to register by a desperate remain government . As it turns out one have voted out and one in, so negated.
Whether they could be bothered to vote or not has no bearing whatsoever on whether they 'future [is] lost for them'. Your argument is entirely false.
I suspect that many of those who couldn't bother to vote, believed that the country would never make such a reckless decision. Another reason why the 'yes' vote does not reflect the true views of society.
It's exactly what it reflects, if you can't be bothered to vote, you're not entitled to a view, imo
Exactly but we are dealing with people who want it all ways.
The government of any country has a responsibility to all those that live there not just those that care to exercise their right to vote. Should you not vote it doesn’t make your existence any less important than those that do. Every indicator point to Brexit as a bad thing for the country as a whole. That our elected representatives care to be in dereliction of their responsibility in rejecting all the evidence and plough on regardless into unknown waters based on a ridiculous referendum fed with lies and mistruths by the likes of Farage, Johnson, Gove, Fox and JRM is arguably criminal.
I heard a woman talking on BBC Radio 4 this morning. She tries to recruit 10,000 migrant workers every year to work on farms. She was asked if she would welcome UK workers and she said she would be delighted but this year when they launched an extensive recruitment scheme for such workers she succeeded in attracting 2 - one of whom failed to turn up. She added that migrant worker recruitment was down 25-32% over the last couple of years, specifically because the low pound meant that it was far less economic for them to come over. There was also an interview with a woman in Scotland who ran a strawberry farm and she reported that field after field had been left to rot because they couldn't get enough migrant workers in to pick them. These damned migrants, eh, come stealing our jobs yadda yadda....
Wow try telling my local Sainsburys that....bloody throwing fruit and veg out in its bucket loads...Neighbour works at a shell garage that has a shop in it, they are not allowed to give fruit, veg and pastries away, have to throw them out...someone must be picking them.
The government of any country has a responsibility to all those that live there not just those that care to exercise their right to vote. Should you not vote it doesn’t make your existence any less important than those that do. Every indicator point to Brexit as a bad thing for the country as a whole. That our elected representatives care to be in dereliction of their responsibility in rejecting all the evidence and plough on regardless into unknown waters based on a ridiculous referendum fed with lies and mistruths by the likes of Farage, Johnson, Gove, Fox and JRM is arguably criminal.
Every piece of evidence suggests Trump is a bad president, does that mean he should be booted out? Or is democracy honored?
Nobody would say Trump should be removed from office because he is a bad President - due process however should be followed if he has committed criminal acts or 'high crimes and misdemeanors'.
As far as I am concerned the whole referendum and subsequent shit fest is criminal.
*and it's 'honoured' !
As was the vote in the 70's to join something we can agree on.
We all see/here what supports our own entrenched views far easier than those views we oppose[1].
I have said before that I have never liked the idea of being in the EU, the EC or the EEC. Despite 2016 being the first meaningful vote I have ever been allowed on the matter, I was still unsure just how I was going to cast my vote a day or two before the referendum as I was trying to weigh up the pros and cons. We were never given any facts[2], just opinions, bias and lies from both sides[3]. We have far more information about the process than we did before the referendum but we still don't have solid facts about how we are going to leave so we can't know what will happen as a result.
What I get bombarded with is a huge amount of gloom and doom from social media and the mainstream media too. These are still just opinions and bias. If you start from a basic premise that Brexit is going to be a disaster then it isn't surprising that your findings will bare this out. There are a distinct lack of articles showing any balance at all, one side makes biased or exaggerated claims and this is then countered by the opposite biased or exaggerated claims to try and change people's minds. It isn't working, particularly when the writer/speaker insults the other side. Everybody just gets the hump and refuses to listen to the other side's legitimate points. Bizarrely, the only personality I can recall hearing speak in a balanced way on Brexit is Martin Lewis.
The LSE claimed that mass immigration hadn't lowered indigenous wages, I can only think that their research centred on sectors that were less prone to the adverse affects of uncontrolled immigration. We heard on this forum from people who had direct experience in the building industry of their income being driven down by new competition. Why would experts be believed when people's own experiences proved this report to be wrong? [4]It also claimed that mass immigration had no adverse affect on social housing. https://www.theguardian.com/money/2016/may/11/eu-migrants-had-no-negative-effect-on-uk-wages-says-lse
Immigration is undoubtedly a good thing for the UK overall and indeed the immigrants but it has to be controlled [5]and not used to avoid necessary investment in modernising UK businesses by lazy employers. This is helping to drive down our productivity and wages in some sectors.
Vince Cable is pushing for another referendum as it will give us a definitive answer on Brexit once and for all (or words to that affect). Just how will another vote solve anything? The last one caused a huge divide between the different parties. I say 'caused' because I certainly wasn't aware of such hostility before the result [7]. If the vote is overturned without being allowed to go through even in BINO there will be major disaffection from many of the 17.4m going forward.
I actually don't have a problem with BMW moving their planned maintenance of their factory to coincide with the the beginning of Brexit, this makes business sense. Of course the timing is based on politics rather than business[8] but it does highlight that much of UK business is getting more and more desperate to know what is going to happen going forward so that they can make plans. The lack of any sense of what the outcome of the negotiations is the real issue for businesses and EU immigrants alike, once a firm agreement is made, everyone can move forward.
I am politically homeless as I see no party that speaks for me and no politician likely to come through that inspires me. I think that I would like a new central party but one based on giving us Brexit, not thwarting it. PR would help deal with many issues, maybe creating others but I would want to see it introduced then the nutters taking over the Labour Party can do so and all the Blairites can so their own thing etc.
First of all, thank you for putting such a great effort in to outlining your thinking; that is much appreciated. I've put a number of responses to specific points below, but they don't really get to the nub of my repost. The overwhelming feeling I get is that your position is extremely light on any benefits of Brexit. You are very good at highlighting inconsistencies in remainers' arguments, but what are the actual benefits of Brexit now? I can't see one point where you say, 'I'm backing Brexit because it will do this for us'. The closest we ever get is that it won't be as bad as the remainers forecast. I don't want our country to undertake such a colossal change on that basis. If we're going to do this thing, I at least wan't people to be saying, yes, these are the benefits... I've seen nothing in what you've written here though that there are any real benefits. It comes across more as defending a vote you made 18 months ago than as something you really think will benefit us now. I find quite intriguing really, as you say that you were undecided until the last minute. If you were undecided so close to the vote, there must have been reasons in your mind for thinking that remain was a good (or, at least, viable) option. With all we have learned since then about how many of the previously stated benefits will not materialise and how problematic leaving will be in many cases, are you not tempted at all to change your mind?
When I first read this line, my immediate reaction was absolutely not. This little exchange has convinced me that it would be good to open my mind a little and review my viewpoint rather than just get angry and dismiss comments from the other side. This is because I don't feel that I am simply being abused for a change. More of that in your P2 comments.
TT. A couple of points. What lies were told by the remoaners? BoE chief Carney reckons we are already £40bn worse off. Rees-Mogg's ERG bullshitters claim an £80bn boost over 5 years despite him claiming £135bn last year yet elsewhere he admits it may take 50 years to see any benefits. Is this trickle-down from the profits his hedge fund will make post Brexit? Even Farage is back-tracking. How many of the 52% voted for a hard or no Brexit? Will of the people, my arse!
HG this has been addressed lots of times. It is in fact wrong to say that it was only the leave campaign that lied. Wasn't it the government claiming that we will be out of the single market and the customs union? I shouldnt need to remind you of George Osbourne scare mongering. No wonder Osbourne and Cameron are no longer in politics.
The government of any country has a responsibility to all those that live there not just those that care to exercise their right to vote. Should you not vote it doesn’t make your existence any less important than those that do. Every indicator point to Brexit as a bad thing for the country as a whole. That our elected representatives care to be in dereliction of their responsibility in rejecting all the evidence and plough on regardless into unknown waters based on a ridiculous referendum fed with lies and mistruths by the likes of Farage, Johnson, Gove, Fox and JRM is arguably criminal.
In English please...
It’s perfectly fine English Chippy old son if you are prepared to accept the missing “S” on point”S”
Best not to lecture on using English though is my advice. Your posts are often barely literate.
Sorry @Stig too many characters to include your quote.
2 I have re-read the Government leaflet in your link. I did read it at the time and dismissed it out of hand as simple propaganda. I admit that I was hasty in that view and it has lots of facts and most I wouldn't dispute. Of course, there is a 'but' and its a pretty big one. Bullet points one and three:
* we will not join the euro * we will keep our own border controls * the UK will not be part of further European political integration
These are the first three points Cameron negotiated with the EU before the referendum. I for one simply don't believe that we would not be allowed to avoid the Euro and further political integration. Jean-Claude Juncker a year ago said: “If we want the euro to unite our continent rather than dividing it, it needs to not be the currency of just a select group of countries. The euro is destined to be the common currency of European Union,”
Mr Juncker called for the system of unanimity voting among countries to be further phased out in favour of weighted majority voting, removing the veto powers of individual governments that currently hinders the EU from adopting common tax rates and complicates annual budget negotiations.
I simply don't trust the organisation not to force us into closer integration which I don't want.
3 I am certainly not going to defend the leave campaign, so wouldn't argue that one.
4 The point is that at least two studies, haven't just said generally, things are better with EU legislation but that it is universally better for everyone and that specific accusations don't hold up when investigated by experts. Coincidentally, I listened to a non Brexit related report on the radio today explaining why just about all economic forecasters pretty much hold a wet finger in the air, which seems to be borne out when the actual outcomes are examined in due course.
5 Sorry but I have skipped about 4k of comments on this thread, so I have probably missed the ones you are talking about. After hearing of the Government commissioned report on immigration that came out this week, I have absolutely no confidence that the plans will address the issues of concern of Brexitiers or that it will help the country going forward. Simply lowering the assessment of 'skilled' workers to an A level or equivalent instead of a degree and insisting that they have an income of £30,000 won't guarantee that the country gets the type of worker that it needs. It won't cover low wage earners that might be needed or self employed or control the overall numbers so that the infrastructure can be planned.
6 I don't have your insight into the civil servants, I just see what I believe are needlessly pessimistic reports.
7 I agree that the referendum was poorly though through. This was obviously due to the arrogance and total misreading of much of the countries' dislike of the EU by Cameron. Just like many on this forum failed to understand the depth of feeling outside the Home Counties. I was shocked TBF with the reaction immediately after the vote and ever since. I have unfriended a contributor on here from facebook as a result of hatred (a strong word but appropriate) and I didn't comment that I felt that people who have left the UK to live elsewhere for more that five years should have no vote in UK politics after Pragues rant at someone who said the same.
8 I have complete sympathy for the likes of BMW etc and the negotiations have not helped business to plan. Of course, there is a chance that they may source their suppliers in the UK instead of on the continent to make life easier? Until the final deal is struck, they won't know what is going to be the best option.
Going forward I can't say what benefits we will see after Brexit as I have said before, because we simply don't know what the final deal will be. It certainly won't be what I would have chosen it to be for sure and I deplore the scaremongering that makes EU residents in the UK unsure about their future. Using them to fight Brexit by pretending that they might get thrown out is totally out of order. Of course, the PM could have made their security a non issue had she committed to this right from the start, even after the EU refused to discuss this.
I would have liked Brexit to be the stimulus that drove investment in our productivity, I fear this won't happen under the Chequers plan although I'm pleased to say that Radio 4 have been running a good news Brexit piece this week about a company embracing Brexit and investing in the future. It is a small but important story in what the future might look like if the UK sees the opportunities that there will inevitably be in any change. https://www.export.org.uk/news/417311/Major-36-million-expansion-underway-for-Immingham-Docks.htm
Far be it for me to put down that nice Mr Cameron, but the three bullet points you refer to, @TellyTubby, had really nothing to do with him. The opt outs over the Euro and Schengen are of long standing, while, throughout the 1990s, the UK was a leading power (at least threatening use of its veto) in preventing increased political union within the EU, preferring instead rapid expansion eastwards (leading, almost inevitably, to the sort of problems we see with Hungary and Polanf today).
I think your response just shows once again that you still do not understand why the majority of people in the UK voted for Brexit. It turns out that 'ordinary people' care more about politics than you and others think. And thank God that most people can see beyond bread and butter issues or our democratic way of life would really be screwed.
And your response shows the remarkable conceit that you believe you understand the Brexit vote. You think they all voted for the same reason, which is your fundamental error. In your case you think that reason was "sovereignty" and "taking back control". Never mind that when many Brexiters are asked, in front of a camera or microphone, what 'taking back control" actually means, they gulp like goldfish on crack. That was exactly how my Mum reacted when she came out with something like 'taking back control' as her reason for voting Brexit, and breaking my heart in the process. And of course when I ask you what it means, in practical terms you revert to high minded sounding cliches, without any reference to your own day to day life.
The truth has now gradually emerged that people voted Brexit for a mish-mash of reasons (as can be seen on CL) and that it wasn't even down to demographics/income/education. A much better correlation was with other outlooks on life, such as views on capital punishment, and other aspects of the order vs tolerance spectrum. That explains the completely divergent views of my brother and my sister who would fall into exactly the same demographic in terms of age, education level (grammar school but not beyond), and earnings (barely scraping average, especially given that they live in London).
You have stated your reasons, at least in general cliche filled terms why you voted Leave. You kid yourself mightily if you think you represent the voice of Brexit. I am afraid there are many different voices of the Brexit vote, some of them reasoned and focused on free trade, like e.g. Dippenhall, and others ranging from the ugly to the downright sinister.
Interesting that you raise the issue of day to day life. Day to day life in the UK is pretty much the same in the UK as before the Brexit vote. Wages have stayed the same, more people are in work, the NHS and the railways are in crisis. I expect after we leave it will be pretty much the same as well because the same people will probably be running things in the same way. But if we do not leave then me and many millions of others will feel cheated of our democratic rights. There will be even more cynicism about politics and even less democratic pressure for change.
You call this 'high minded' yet you live in a country that was cheated of democracy for decades. Did the Czechs think it was 'high minded' to want to govern through a democratic vote?
You surely know that since the creation of parliamentary democracy in Britain no parliamentary or referendum election has been ignored or over-ruled. We are very, very fortunate in that respect and there are very few countries in the world where that is true. Yet you and others wish to ignore the result of this referendum and create a precedent for ignoring election results when they do not suit you. I find it quite shocking that you hold democracy in such contempt.
Far be it for me to put down that nice Mr Cameron, but the three bullet points you refer to, @TellyTubby, had really nothing to do with him. The opt outs over the Euro and Schengen are of long standing, while, throughout the 1990s, the UK was a leading power (at least threatening use of its veto) in preventing increased political union within the EU, preferring instead rapid expansion eastwards (leading, almost inevitably, to the sort of problems we see with Hungary and Polanf today).
Fair point. I thought he was claiming that he had got a commitment going forward.
@TellyTubby has sent me to a website to consider the views of politicians in the year I was born. And I am a effing neo-pensioner. I will resist the temptation to dig out what else people - politicians and ordinary citizens - were thinking and saying in 1954....
Meanwhile @Southbank thinks I "hold democracy in contempt". Why does he think this? He thinks I "ignore" the referendum result. I do not. I simply disagree with many of my fellow citizens on their viewpoint, just as I did in the Thatcher years. And I think there is sufficient evidence to suggest that citiznes deserve a vote on the terms of the agreement for leaving the EU. Such a vote would come pretty much three years after the 2016 referendum, and thus a bigger time lag than between some general elections. Isn't that right Theresa? Isn't that right @Southbank? I think it is you that holds democracy in contempt.
The government of any country has a responsibility to all those that live there not just those that care to exercise their right to vote. Should you not vote it doesn’t make your existence any less important than those that do. Every indicator point to Brexit as a bad thing for the country as a whole. That our elected representatives care to be in dereliction of their responsibility in rejecting all the evidence and plough on regardless into unknown waters based on a ridiculous referendum fed with lies and mistruths by the likes of Farage, Johnson, Gove, Fox and JRM is arguably criminal.
In English please...
It’s perfectly fine English Chippy old son if you are prepared to accept the missing “S” on point”S”
Best not to lecture on using English though is my advice. Your posts are often barely literate.
So are yours, but I am not pedantic like you in picking them out....
The government of any country has a responsibility to all those that live there not just those that care to exercise their right to vote. Should you not vote it doesn’t make your existence any less important than those that do. Every indicator point to Brexit as a bad thing for the country as a whole. That our elected representatives care to be in dereliction of their responsibility in rejecting all the evidence and plough on regardless into unknown waters based on a ridiculous referendum fed with lies and mistruths by the likes of Farage, Johnson, Gove, Fox and JRM is arguably criminal.
In English please...
It’s perfectly fine English Chippy old son if you are prepared to accept the missing “S” on point”S”
Best not to lecture on using English though is my advice. Your posts are often barely literate.
So are yours, but I am not pedantic like you in picking them out....
The government of any country has a responsibility to all those that live there not just those that care to exercise their right to vote. Should you not vote it doesn’t make your existence any less important than those that do. Every indicator point to Brexit as a bad thing for the country as a whole. That our elected representatives care to be in dereliction of their responsibility in rejecting all the evidence and plough on regardless into unknown waters based on a ridiculous referendum fed with lies and mistruths by the likes of Farage, Johnson, Gove, Fox and JRM is arguably criminal.
In English please...
It’s perfectly fine English Chippy old son if you are prepared to accept the missing “S” on point”S”
Best not to lecture on using English though is my advice. Your posts are often barely literate.
So are yours, but I am not pedantic like you in picking them out....
You are funny.
Blackpool did tell you all that yesterday...but super flag took it the wrong way as usual...
I've not viewed CL for a day or so & I find over 6 pages of new posts. Tried to read them all but I have a life outside of CL so gave up after 4 of them.
Of the ones I read I have come to the following conclusions:
I voted Leave as I do not believe in a completly open door policy on migration for the whole of Europe. Some migration is good (who else is going to clean my car for £5 when I shop in Sainsbury's) but that doesn't mean we should let in everyone who decides they want to live here. It might benefit us economically but does it socially ? Where are all these people going to live ?? Certainly not in the places that has lots of space like the North of Scotland but in Central London or the South East where house prices have rocketed over the past 20 years & roads are continually congested. Also I think the recent research is flawed. It talked about EU migrants being of younger age & therefore paying into society & not taking out ala OAP's. But some EU migrants may stay & then bring over families or start a family themselves. That then means more people. Yes, they may move back "home", but generally they do not. Also I believe that the UK should be able to make or own laws & not be subject to the ECJ. They are the 2 main reasons I voted to leave.
Secondly. Vince Cable & stoping Brexit. If this happens I will never vote again. I may go to a polling station but will spoil my ballot paper every time. For me democracy would be dead. I might as well go & live in Russia or China. You can not just tear up the vote of 17 million people just because you dont agree with the outcome. Yes, the resulting deal we come out with may be a shitfest & it very likely it will not be as good as staying in the EU.....but that is not a good enough reason to just forget the vote ever happened.
Far be it for me to put down that nice Mr Cameron, but the three bullet points you refer to, @TellyTubby, had really nothing to do with him. The opt outs over the Euro and Schengen are of long standing, while, throughout the 1990s, the UK was a leading power (at least threatening use of its veto) in preventing increased political union within the EU, preferring instead rapid expansion eastwards (leading, almost inevitably, to the sort of problems we see with Hungary and Polanf today).
Fair point. I thought he was claiming that he had got a commitment going forward.
I think it was just making clear that the UK could not be forced into a different kind of relationship while it remained in the EU - there was no likelihood of that ever changing, despite the Eurosceptic claims to the contrary.
I've not viewed CL for a day or so & I find over 6 pages of new posts. Tried to read them all but I have a life outside of CL so gave up after 4 of them.
Of the ones I read I have come to the following conclusions:
I voted Leave as I do not believe in a completly open door policy on migration for the whole of Europe. Some migration is good (who else is going to clean my car for £5 when I shop in Sainsbury's) but that doesn't mean we should let in everyone who decides they want to live here. It might benefit us economically but does it socially ? Where are all these people going to live ?? Certainly not in the places that has lots of space like the North of Scotland but in Central London or the South East where house prices have rocketed over the past 20 years & roads are continually congested. Also I think the recent research is flawed. It talked about EU migrants being of younger age & therefore paying into society & not taking out ala OAP's. But some EU migrants may stay & then bring over families or start a family themselves. That then means more people. Yes, they may move back "home", but generally they do not. Also I believe that the UK should be able to make or own laws & not be subject to the ECJ. They are the 2 main reasons I voted to leave.
Secondly. Vince Cable & stoping Brexit. If this happens I will never vote again. I may go to a polling station but will spoil my ballot paper every time. For me democracy would be dead. I might as well go & live in Russia or China. You can not just tear up the vote of 17 million people just because you dont agree with the outcome. Yes, the resulting deal we come out with may be a shitfest & it very likely it will not be as good as staying in the EU.....but that is not a good enough reason to just forget the vote ever happened.
Is it worth pointing out that the EU freedom of movement rules do not require a completely open door policy for intra-European migration?
The UK open door policy was due to decisions taken by various UK Governments to not use the measures available to all EU member states to require migrants to have work within a certain time period, or leave.
Telly Tubby wrote: "The IMF is now telling us that the UK will suffer as a direct result of any Brexit, LBC reported that they said that the EU would suffer in the event of a no deal Brexit too. At the same time 5 Live news only reported the IMF issuing dire warnings about the UK. I haven't come across any other mainstream media outlet reporting that both sides will suffer."
Why would your average quitter give a monkeys about the effects on the rest of the EU, most of them don't care about the effects on their own kids?
My kids although in their 20's, both with degrees and with professional careers could not be bothered to vote. As did a lot of their friends. This future lost for them rubbish is too often spouted out in desperation. They were even given extended time to register by a desperate remain government . As it turns out one have voted out and one in, so negated.
Reminds me of the story of the Yorkshire England cricketers a few years back. One a staunch Labour supporter - Wicketkeeper Jack Russell and one a staunch Tory -Batsman Bill Athey. There was an election and they were playing a test match for England in London. They both had to return to Yorkshire to vote and Russell suggested that they could save a journey by cancelling out each other's vote and staying in London. Athey decided that he couldn't do that and went back to Yorkshire to vote, so Russell decided he had to go too!
Far be it for me to put down that nice Mr Cameron, but the three bullet points you refer to, @TellyTubby, had really nothing to do with him. The opt outs over the Euro and Schengen are of long standing, while, throughout the 1990s, the UK was a leading power (at least threatening use of its veto) in preventing increased political union within the EU, preferring instead rapid expansion eastwards (leading, almost inevitably, to the sort of problems we see with Hungary and Polanf today).
Fair point. I thought he was claiming that he had got a commitment going forward.
I think it was just making clear that the UK could not be forced into a different kind of relationship while it remained in the EU - there was no likelihood of that ever changing, despite the Eurosceptic claims to the contrary.
That maybe what Cameron thought but it's clearly the ambition of Junkers and other power brokers to drive closer integration and for all to adopt the Euro. Without being offensive, it is ostrich like to deny it.
A common argument amongst Leavers, although it has consistently been debunked, has been the idea that the countries in the EU are sleepwalking into some kind of nation-less superstate.
Said it before on here but anyone with any experience of living in different European countries would know it is a ludicrous notion. In Spain for example, the Catalans and Basques resent and resist even central control by Madrid, so the idea that countries with such regional diversity would allow themselves to be swallowed up into a faceless United States of Europe is a fantasy used by Eurosceptics in a totally unrealistic way. Go over borders and you will find different people with completely diverse cultures and mindsets. Seeing Europe as one big 'other' that the UK aren't a part of has led to this idea that the other nations somehow aren't as fiercely proud of their own cultures as we are.
I've not viewed CL for a day or so & I find over 6 pages of new posts. Tried to read them all but I have a life outside of CL so gave up after 4 of them.
Of the ones I read I have come to the following conclusions:
I voted Leave as I do not believe in a completly open door policy on migration for the whole of Europe. Some migration is good (who else is going to clean my car for £5 when I shop in Sainsbury's) but that doesn't mean we should let in everyone who decides they want to live here. It might benefit us economically but does it socially ? Where are all these people going to live ?? Certainly not in the places that has lots of space like the North of Scotland but in Central London or the South East where house prices have rocketed over the past 20 years & roads are continually congested. Also I think the recent research is flawed. It talked about EU migrants being of younger age & therefore paying into society & not taking out ala OAP's. But some EU migrants may stay & then bring over families or start a family themselves. That then means more people. Yes, they may move back "home", but generally they do not. Also I believe that the UK should be able to make or own laws & not be subject to the ECJ. They are the 2 main reasons I voted to leave.
Secondly. Vince Cable & stoping Brexit. If this happens I will never vote again. I may go to a polling station but will spoil my ballot paper every time. For me democracy would be dead. I might as well go & live in Russia or China. You can not just tear up the vote of 17 million people just because you dont agree with the outcome. Yes, the resulting deal we come out with may be a shitfest & it very likely it will not be as good as staying in the EU.....but that is not a good enough reason to just forget the vote ever happened.
This is one of those facts that Brexit voters, no matter how many times it has been stated on this thread, and elsewhere, simply will not accept. It is just another non fact nonsense argument that has been rehashed here over the last few days.
Brexiteers were invited to come back and make the case for Brexit in the light of the facts and evidence and actual Government Brexit policy and actual Brexit planning by employers that have emerged over the last two years. All I am seeing is the same baseless smears and arguments that were completely debunked during the Referendum campaign.
Comments
Up.until.very recently they were in fact us. For a start one example would be the EU in relation to Greece. If there is to be criticism of that dynamic then it is as much a criticism of the UK as the EU.
Some of the rhetoric on here suggests the UK was in thrall to the EU, when in fact the UK was happy to set up it's tent in the EU field in a spot just as sunny as any other.
You try to explain that it's a club, and we're all members, and we make decisions together. You can even point out that via our many vetos, we have a disproportionate amount of influence over the way the club is run and the rules it makes. But it falls on deaf ears and always will. They will never see it as us all being in this together, it will alway be us and them, and if they won't do what we want, then we will leave.
It's a childish attitude on may levels, a refusal to accept that there is give and take, that more can be achieved by working as a group. It explains the way the negotiations have gone. We tell the EU we want this and that, no understanding or caring what the rules of the club, rules that we helped right, allow. We want what we want and they must agree. We are not only leaving and taking our ball with us, we are trying to tell them what games they are allowed to play once we have left.
Though of course we aren't telling them much at all, like a child we say we want dinner, but then turn down everything offered, and demand food that isn't in the house, or plain doesn't exists.
It's all a bit farcical, and would be laughable if it wasn't damaging all our futures, We have a border issue that essentially has 3 parties involved and every solution will only keep 2 of the 3 happy. We have a trade issue whereby we are walking away from our biggest trading partners and hoping to make up the difference by replacing them with partners who have a tiny fraction of the GDP, or will makes demands on us (looking your way Trump) that will make us all poorer, whilst damaging further our trading relationship with the EU.
We'll give up the myriad of consumer and environmental protects the EU offers, and hope Rees-Mogg and his ilk will be charitable and protect us in the anything like the same way (now that is the height of folly, the Tory right has shown time and time again that they will happily screw the UK population, with the occasional meagre morsel thrown our way just before election time to get in for another term).
Best not to lecture on using English though is my advice. Your posts are often barely literate.
2
I have re-read the Government leaflet in your link. I did read it at the time and dismissed it out of hand as simple propaganda. I admit that I was hasty in that view and it has lots of facts and most I wouldn't dispute. Of course, there is a 'but' and its a pretty big one. Bullet points one and three:
* we will not join the euro
* we will keep our own border controls
* the UK will not be part of further European political integration
These are the first three points Cameron negotiated with the EU before the referendum. I for one simply don't believe that we would not be allowed to avoid the Euro and further political integration. Jean-Claude Juncker a year ago said:
“If we want the euro to unite our continent rather than dividing it, it needs to not be the currency of just a select group of countries. The euro is destined to be the common currency of European Union,”
Mr Juncker called for the system of unanimity voting among countries to be further phased out in favour of weighted majority voting, removing the veto powers of individual governments that currently hinders the EU from adopting common tax rates and complicates annual budget negotiations.
I simply don't trust the organisation not to force us into closer integration which I don't want.
Here is a link for you @PragueAddick https://www.ft.com/content/f1d5ec78-9851-11e7-a652-cde3f882dd7b indeed here is a quote about plans back in 1954:
"had demonstrated that political and military union was still an utopian objective." http://www.historiasiglo20.org/europe/anteceden2.htm
3
I am certainly not going to defend the leave campaign, so wouldn't argue that one.
4
The point is that at least two studies, haven't just said generally, things are better with EU legislation but that it is universally better for everyone and that specific accusations don't hold up when investigated by experts. Coincidentally, I listened to a non Brexit related report on the radio today explaining why just about all economic forecasters pretty much hold a wet finger in the air, which seems to be borne out when the actual outcomes are examined in due course.
5
Sorry but I have skipped about 4k of comments on this thread, so I have probably missed the ones you are talking about. After hearing of the Government commissioned report on immigration that came out this week, I have absolutely no confidence that the plans will address the issues of concern of Brexitiers or that it will help the country going forward. Simply lowering the assessment of 'skilled' workers to an A level or equivalent instead of a degree and insisting that they have an income of £30,000 won't guarantee that the country gets the type of worker that it needs. It won't cover low wage earners that might be needed or self employed or control the overall numbers so that the infrastructure can be planned.
6
I don't have your insight into the civil servants, I just see what I believe are needlessly pessimistic reports.
7
I agree that the referendum was poorly though through. This was obviously due to the arrogance and total misreading of much of the countries' dislike of the EU by Cameron. Just like many on this forum failed to understand the depth of feeling outside the Home Counties. I was shocked TBF with the reaction immediately after the vote and ever since. I have unfriended a contributor on here from facebook as a result of hatred (a strong word but appropriate) and I didn't comment that I felt that people who have left the UK to live elsewhere for more that five years should have no vote in UK politics after Pragues rant at someone who said the same.
8
I have complete sympathy for the likes of BMW etc and the negotiations have not helped business to plan. Of course, there is a chance that they may source their suppliers in the UK instead of on the continent to make life easier? Until the final deal is struck, they won't know what is going to be the best option.
Going forward
I can't say what benefits we will see after Brexit as I have said before, because we simply don't know what the final deal will be. It certainly won't be what I would have chosen it to be for sure and I deplore the scaremongering that makes EU residents in the UK unsure about their future. Using them to fight Brexit by pretending that they might get thrown out is totally out of order. Of course, the PM could have made their security a non issue had she committed to this right from the start, even after the EU refused to discuss this.
I would have liked Brexit to be the stimulus that drove investment in our productivity, I fear this won't happen under the Chequers plan although I'm pleased to say that Radio 4 have been running a good news Brexit piece this week about a company embracing Brexit and investing in the future. It is a small but important story in what the future might look like if the UK sees the opportunities that there will inevitably be in any change. https://www.export.org.uk/news/417311/Major-36-million-expansion-underway-for-Immingham-Docks.htm
You call this 'high minded' yet you live in a country that was cheated of democracy for decades. Did the Czechs think it was 'high minded' to want to govern through a democratic vote?
You surely know that since the creation of parliamentary democracy in Britain no parliamentary or referendum election has been ignored or over-ruled. We are very, very fortunate in that respect and there are very few countries in the world where that is true. Yet you and others wish to ignore the result of this referendum and create a precedent for ignoring election results when they do not suit you. I find it quite shocking that you hold democracy in such contempt.
@TellyTubby has sent me to a website to consider the views of politicians in the year I was born. And I am a effing neo-pensioner. I will resist the temptation to dig out what else people - politicians and ordinary citizens - were thinking and saying in 1954....
Meanwhile @Southbank thinks I "hold democracy in contempt". Why does he think this? He thinks I "ignore" the referendum result. I do not. I simply disagree with many of my fellow citizens on their viewpoint, just as I did in the Thatcher years. And I think there is sufficient evidence to suggest that citiznes deserve a vote on the terms of the agreement for leaving the EU. Such a vote would come pretty much three years after the 2016 referendum, and thus a bigger time lag than between some general elections. Isn't that right Theresa? Isn't that right @Southbank? I think it is you that holds democracy in contempt.
Of the ones I read I have come to the following conclusions:
I voted Leave as I do not believe in a completly open door policy on migration for the whole of Europe. Some migration is good (who else is going to clean my car for £5 when I shop in Sainsbury's) but that doesn't mean we should let in everyone who decides they want to live here. It might benefit us economically but does it socially ? Where are all these people going to live ?? Certainly not in the places that has lots of space like the North of Scotland but in Central London or the South East where house prices have rocketed over the past 20 years & roads are continually congested. Also I think the recent research is flawed. It talked about EU migrants being of younger age & therefore paying into society & not taking out ala OAP's. But some EU migrants may stay & then bring over families or start a family themselves. That then means more people. Yes, they may move back "home", but generally they do not. Also I believe that the UK should be able to make or own laws & not be subject to the ECJ. They are the 2 main reasons I voted to leave.
Secondly. Vince Cable & stoping Brexit. If this happens I will never vote again. I may go to a polling station but will spoil my ballot paper every time. For me democracy would be dead. I might as well go & live in Russia or China. You can not just tear up the vote of 17 million people just because you dont agree with the outcome. Yes, the resulting deal we come out with may be a shitfest & it very likely it will not be as good as staying in the EU.....but that is not a good enough reason to just forget the vote ever happened.
The UK open door policy was due to decisions taken by various UK Governments to not use the measures available to all EU member states to require migrants to have work within a certain time period, or leave.
Said it before on here but anyone with any experience of living in different European countries would know it is a ludicrous notion. In Spain for example, the Catalans and Basques resent and resist even central control by Madrid, so the idea that countries with such regional diversity would allow themselves to be swallowed up into a faceless United States of Europe is a fantasy used by Eurosceptics in a totally unrealistic way. Go over borders and you will find different people with completely diverse cultures and mindsets. Seeing Europe as one big 'other' that the UK aren't a part of has led to this idea that the other nations somehow aren't as fiercely proud of their own cultures as we are.
Brexiteers were invited to come back and make the case for Brexit in the light of the facts and evidence and actual Government Brexit policy and actual Brexit planning by employers that have emerged over the last two years. All I am seeing is the same baseless smears and arguments that were completely debunked during the Referendum campaign.