Cue the usual bollocks from the morons who think that farkin' foreigners should shut up about Brexit.
On a philosophical note 48% of UK citizens are foreigners now. 52% won, they can say and do what they want in what is now their country.
This is simply not the case, hyperbole at its worst
I disagree. Philosophically is the word I used, if invoking that concept is 'hyperbole at it's worst' then your life experience is considerably different to mine. I had thought the passage of time would help, but nothing from the leave side has managed that. They won, they are triumphalist, sneering, dismissive, ignorant, lacking in idea or a plan and to my mind anti reason, anti logic and stupid. They are the 52% who are now in charge, and although I am obliged to stay in this country physically, philosophically I feel homeless, and weirdly ashamed.
I am listening to the World Tonight on R4. They are talking about the continuing bitter divide between Brexiters and Remainers. There was some research quoted which basically said people are so entrenched that when asked if they would take in a lodger, they would only take in one who was like minded on Brexit. And then they returned to "a pub in SE London" where they were before the referendum. They ask a guy what he thinks about Remainers. I can quote him verbatim
"Greedy bastards. Rich people. I mean, who won the war? We did."
Edit : he said "it's all money to these people" Another one said "rich people"
WTF is he talking about? In what way am I greedy by being a Remainer? Do you suppose I am "richer" than any of you? Even if that were true, why did EU membership make me richer than you? And as for the frigging war!! Who's this "we"? Not him or me, obviously. Well my Dad was one of 7 kids from Plumstead and did his time in Burma with the Royal Signals in the rank of corporal. Is that enough of a contribution? WTF? WTF is this shit? Does this guy speak for you? we are leaving the EU on the back of a wave of hateful incomprehensible bile like that?
And as for that second half at the Valley...
What a weird post. Why the fuck would any of us take responsibility for those words when they are not our own?
Plus you have seen enough of our posts to know the way we think is far from those comments.
You dissociate yourself from people who think and speak like this guy then?
You also tend to distance yourself from them when I remind you who the main politicians are who led and continue to lead Brexit. We will hear from them this week, starting with Boris Johnson, who seems to be following the Katrien Meire approach (its all going to be a wonderful new Britain, all our decisions are right, and you are going to love these shiny new ways, but you must not complain, you just have to accept it)
Do you wish to tell me that that bloke in the pub (in our part of London, and not in Stoke) is a small minority of Brexit voters; and that the vast majority voted Brexit as you did, based around your belief that Britain will prosper due to better international trading prospects, and that it was nothing to do with wanting less foreigners around, and less relationship with Germany because we once were at war with them?
Trust me on this, I really would love to believe he is a small minority. I don't like to feel disgusted and alienated by my country, and that millions of my fellow countrymen hate me because I can spell and have earned enough money through honest respectable work to live what I suppose would be termed a middle -class life, probably much the same as yours if we compared, (save that I live in another country now, as you did in the past).
Let's all consider this raft of Brexiteer ministers' speeches this week. Then maybe you could follow @Imissthepeanutman 's example and name the politician who now best articulates your reasons for voting Brexit. A good route to "debating the issues" as @Southbank said last night, I'd suggest.
absolute jibberish from Johnson at the moment, still pushing the myth that you can't self govern in the EU, yet won't admit that Germany, France and the other 25 are efficient self governing countries
At the end of the day it doesn't matter which side of the debate you are on, there are a number of things we can all agree on:
1) Brexit requires detailed and complex negotiations by intelligent, diligent, savvy negotiators/politicians 2) We have very few to none of the above, especially in any important positions
That is why remain was the only sensible vote, because whatever you want, whether that be a successful Brexit or to remain, won't be achieved under our current leaders. If you really want to leave the EU, then the way to achieve it would to have been to have a long term plan to vote in the kind of leaders that could possibly make it a success first, not vote out and then hope beyond hope that the shower of shite we currently have somehow perform a miracle.
absolute jibberish from Johnson at the moment, still pushing the myth that you can't self govern in the EU, yet won't admit that Germany, France and the other 25 are efficient self governing countries
He claimed no one knew who their MEP was or how to find out! Are posh boys from public schools so insulated and absorbed in learning obscure Latin phrases that they can show off with they have not heard of google? It took me 30 seconds find out who the London MEPs were.
I am listening to the World Tonight on R4. They are talking about the continuing bitter divide between Brexiters and Remainers. There was some research quoted which basically said people are so entrenched that when asked if they would take in a lodger, they would only take in one who was like minded on Brexit. And then they returned to "a pub in SE London" where they were before the referendum. They ask a guy what he thinks about Remainers. I can quote him verbatim
"Greedy bastards. Rich people. I mean, who won the war? We did."
Edit : he said "it's all money to these people" Another one said "rich people"
WTF is he talking about? In what way am I greedy by being a Remainer? Do you suppose I am "richer" than any of you? Even if that were true, why did EU membership make me richer than you? And as for the frigging war!! Who's this "we"? Not him or me, obviously. Well my Dad was one of 7 kids from Plumstead and did his time in Burma with the Royal Signals in the rank of corporal. Is that enough of a contribution? WTF? WTF is this shit? Does this guy speak for you? we are leaving the EU on the back of a wave of hateful incomprehensible bile like that?
And as for that second half at the Valley...
What a weird post. Why the fuck would any of us take responsibility for those words when they are not our own?
Plus you have seen enough of our posts to know the way we think is far from those comments.
You dissociate yourself from people who think and speak like this guy then?
You also tend to distance yourself from them when I remind you who the main politicians are who led and continue to lead Brexit. We will hear from them this week, starting with Boris Johnson, who seems to be following the Katrien Meire approach (its all going to be a wonderful new Britain, all our decisions are right, and you are going to love these shiny new ways, but you must not complain, you just have to accept it)
Do you wish to tell me that that bloke in the pub (in our part of London, and not in Stoke) is a small minority of Brexit voters; and that the vast majority voted Brexit as you did, based around your belief that Britain will prosper due to better international trading prospects, and that it was nothing to do with wanting less foreigners around, and less relationship with Germany because we once were at war with them?
Trust me on this, I really would love to believe he is a small minority. I don't like to feel disgusted and alienated by my country, and that millions of my fellow countrymen hate me because I can spell and have earned enough money through honest respectable work to live what I suppose would be termed a middle -class life, probably much the same as yours if we compared, (save that I live in another country now, as you did in the past).
Let's all consider this raft of Brexiteer ministers' speeches this week. Then maybe you could follow @Imissthepeanutman 's example and name the politician who now best articulates your reasons for voting Brexit. A good route to "debating the issues" as @Southbank said last night, I'd suggest.
This 'bloke in the pub' didn't happen to work in the construction industry by any chance?
I am listening to the World Tonight on R4. They are talking about the continuing bitter divide between Brexiters and Remainers. There was some research quoted which basically said people are so entrenched that when asked if they would take in a lodger, they would only take in one who was like minded on Brexit. And then they returned to "a pub in SE London" where they were before the referendum. They ask a guy what he thinks about Remainers. I can quote him verbatim
"Greedy bastards. Rich people. I mean, who won the war? We did."
Edit : he said "it's all money to these people" Another one said "rich people"
WTF is he talking about? In what way am I greedy by being a Remainer? Do you suppose I am "richer" than any of you? Even if that were true, why did EU membership make me richer than you? And as for the frigging war!! Who's this "we"? Not him or me, obviously. Well my Dad was one of 7 kids from Plumstead and did his time in Burma with the Royal Signals in the rank of corporal. Is that enough of a contribution? WTF? WTF is this shit? Does this guy speak for you? we are leaving the EU on the back of a wave of hateful incomprehensible bile like that?
And as for that second half at the Valley...
What a weird post. Why the fuck would any of us take responsibility for those words when they are not our own?
Plus you have seen enough of our posts to know the way we think is far from those comments.
You dissociate yourself from people who think and speak like this guy then?
You also tend to distance yourself from them when I remind you who the main politicians are who led and continue to lead Brexit. We will hear from them this week, starting with Boris Johnson, who seems to be following the Katrien Meire approach (its all going to be a wonderful new Britain, all our decisions are right, and you are going to love these shiny new ways, but you must not complain, you just have to accept it)
Do you wish to tell me that that bloke in the pub (in our part of London, and not in Stoke) is a small minority of Brexit voters; and that the vast majority voted Brexit as you did, based around your belief that Britain will prosper due to better international trading prospects, and that it was nothing to do with wanting less foreigners around, and less relationship with Germany because we once were at war with them?
Trust me on this, I really would love to believe he is a small minority. I don't like to feel disgusted and alienated by my country, and that millions of my fellow countrymen hate me because I can spell and have earned enough money through honest respectable work to live what I suppose would be termed a middle -class life, probably much the same as yours if we compared, (save that I live in another country now, as you did in the past).
Let's all consider this raft of Brexiteer ministers' speeches this week. Then maybe you could follow @Imissthepeanutman 's example and name the politician who now best articulates your reasons for voting Brexit. A good route to "debating the issues" as @Southbank said last night, I'd suggest.
You asked if 'this guy speak for you?' It was a ridiculous question as you know he does not.
Using the same type of approach I could take you up on your comment, 'because I can spell and have earned enough money through honest respectable work to live what I suppose would be termed a middle -class life', and pretend it means that you are disassociating yourself from those not as educated as you, and that such people voted leave because they are uneducated.
So you would be standing side-by-side with Richard II against Wat Tyler as he led the Peasants Revolt from Blackheath to Smithfield? Or arguing against Sir Robert Peel when he repealed the Corn Laws because he was supporting the uneducated plebs against the landowners?
Obviously this is all ridiculous and I do not believe you would have such an approach - but it is no different to the disingenuous question you asked the leavers on here in respect of someone we most definitely would not support.
Cue the usual bollocks from the morons who think that farkin' foreigners should shut up about Brexit.
On a philosophical note 48% of UK citizens are foreigners now. 52% won, they can say and do what they want in what is now their country.
This is simply not the case, hyperbole at its worst
I disagree. Philosophically is the word I used, if invoking that concept is 'hyperbole at it's worst' then your life experience is considerably different to mine. I had thought the passage of time would help, but nothing from the leave side has managed that. They won, they are triumphalist, sneering, dismissive, ignorant, lacking in idea or a plan and to my mind anti reason, anti logic and stupid. They are the 52% who are now in charge, and although I am obliged to stay in this country physically, philosophically I feel homeless, and weirdly ashamed.
The leave and remain views are not homogeneous, there is a spectrum within the 52 and indeed the 48 - the spectrum is visible on this thread.
Philosophically or not, I don't feel 'foreign' although i voted remain - your post, i feel, spoke only for you, rather than others. If you were invoking a concept for discussion, then cool - but that's not how it reads.
I am listening to the World Tonight on R4. They are talking about the continuing bitter divide between Brexiters and Remainers. There was some research quoted which basically said people are so entrenched that when asked if they would take in a lodger, they would only take in one who was like minded on Brexit. And then they returned to "a pub in SE London" where they were before the referendum. They ask a guy what he thinks about Remainers. I can quote him verbatim
"Greedy bastards. Rich people. I mean, who won the war? We did."
Edit : he said "it's all money to these people" Another one said "rich people"
WTF is he talking about? In what way am I greedy by being a Remainer? Do you suppose I am "richer" than any of you? Even if that were true, why did EU membership make me richer than you? And as for the frigging war!! Who's this "we"? Not him or me, obviously. Well my Dad was one of 7 kids from Plumstead and did his time in Burma with the Royal Signals in the rank of corporal. Is that enough of a contribution? WTF? WTF is this shit? Does this guy speak for you? we are leaving the EU on the back of a wave of hateful incomprehensible bile like that?
And as for that second half at the Valley...
What a weird post. Why the fuck would any of us take responsibility for those words when they are not our own?
Plus you have seen enough of our posts to know the way we think is far from those comments.
You dissociate yourself from people who think and speak like this guy then?
You also tend to distance yourself from them when I remind you who the main politicians are who led and continue to lead Brexit. We will hear from them this week, starting with Boris Johnson, who seems to be following the Katrien Meire approach (its all going to be a wonderful new Britain, all our decisions are right, and you are going to love these shiny new ways, but you must not complain, you just have to accept it)
Do you wish to tell me that that bloke in the pub (in our part of London, and not in Stoke) is a small minority of Brexit voters; and that the vast majority voted Brexit as you did, based around your belief that Britain will prosper due to better international trading prospects, and that it was nothing to do with wanting less foreigners around, and less relationship with Germany because we once were at war with them?
Trust me on this, I really would love to believe he is a small minority. I don't like to feel disgusted and alienated by my country, and that millions of my fellow countrymen hate me because I can spell and have earned enough money through honest respectable work to live what I suppose would be termed a middle -class life, probably much the same as yours if we compared, (save that I live in another country now, as you did in the past).
Let's all consider this raft of Brexiteer ministers' speeches this week. Then maybe you could follow @Imissthepeanutman 's example and name the politician who now best articulates your reasons for voting Brexit. A good route to "debating the issues" as @Southbank said last night, I'd suggest.
This 'bloke in the pub' didn't happen to work in the construction industry by any chance?
Cue the usual bollocks from the morons who think that farkin' foreigners should shut up about Brexit.
On a philosophical note 48% of UK citizens are foreigners now. 52% won, they can say and do what they want in what is now their country.
This is simply not the case, hyperbole at its worst
I disagree. Philosophically is the word I used, if invoking that concept is 'hyperbole at it's worst' then your life experience is considerably different to mine. I had thought the passage of time would help, but nothing from the leave side has managed that. They won, they are triumphalist, sneering, dismissive, ignorant, lacking in idea or a plan and to my mind anti reason, anti logic and stupid. They are the 52% who are now in charge, and although I am obliged to stay in this country physically, philosophically I feel homeless, and weirdly ashamed.
The leave and remain views are not homogeneous, there is a spectrum within the 52 and indeed the 48 - the spectrum is visible on this thread.
Philosophically or not, I don't feel 'foreign' although i voted remain - your post, i feel, spoke only for you, rather than others. If you were invoking a concept for discussion, then cool - but that's not how it reads.
You are right to pull me up if I suggested I spoke for anybody but myself. Mind you, the 'will of the British people' narrative is often invoked by brexiters to suggest they are a part of an homogenous 52% yet there probably is a spectrum of views. Despite any range of views and opinions there remains the edifice of the referendum. A line drawn or created that has established the divide and forced the issue. There is no compromise regarding brexit, in that way I agree with the brexiteers that brexit means brexit, just like a border is a border, just like there is a notion of an 'us' and a 'them'. All the terms used to modify like 'soft' or 'frictionless' are meaningless. What isn't meaningless are the practical boots on the ground implications of the choice by the 52%, and what is becoming increasingly and frighteningly apparent is that the 52% don't have any practical ideas, unless they're a secret of some kind. Your reply started with the term 'foreign' which you put in inverted commas because I assume you feel it is a term or notion up for debate. One definition may be something involving 'differences' between people, and I feel that, very different to the majority who chose this present course.
I am listening to the World Tonight on R4. They are talking about the continuing bitter divide between Brexiters and Remainers. There was some research quoted which basically said people are so entrenched that when asked if they would take in a lodger, they would only take in one who was like minded on Brexit. And then they returned to "a pub in SE London" where they were before the referendum. They ask a guy what he thinks about Remainers. I can quote him verbatim
"Greedy bastards. Rich people. I mean, who won the war? We did."
Edit : he said "it's all money to these people" Another one said "rich people"
WTF is he talking about? In what way am I greedy by being a Remainer? Do you suppose I am "richer" than any of you? Even if that were true, why did EU membership make me richer than you? And as for the frigging war!! Who's this "we"? Not him or me, obviously. Well my Dad was one of 7 kids from Plumstead and did his time in Burma with the Royal Signals in the rank of corporal. Is that enough of a contribution? WTF? WTF is this shit? Does this guy speak for you? we are leaving the EU on the back of a wave of hateful incomprehensible bile like that?
And as for that second half at the Valley...
What a weird post. Why the fuck would any of us take responsibility for those words when they are not our own?
Plus you have seen enough of our posts to know the way we think is far from those comments.
You dissociate yourself from people who think and speak like this guy then?
You also tend to distance yourself from them when I remind you who the main politicians are who led and continue to lead Brexit. We will hear from them this week, starting with Boris Johnson, who seems to be following the Katrien Meire approach (its all going to be a wonderful new Britain, all our decisions are right, and you are going to love these shiny new ways, but you must not complain, you just have to accept it)
Do you wish to tell me that that bloke in the pub (in our part of London, and not in Stoke) is a small minority of Brexit voters; and that the vast majority voted Brexit as you did, based around your belief that Britain will prosper due to better international trading prospects, and that it was nothing to do with wanting less foreigners around, and less relationship with Germany because we once were at war with them?
Trust me on this, I really would love to believe he is a small minority. I don't like to feel disgusted and alienated by my country, and that millions of my fellow countrymen hate me because I can spell and have earned enough money through honest respectable work to live what I suppose would be termed a middle -class life, probably much the same as yours if we compared, (save that I live in another country now, as you did in the past).
Let's all consider this raft of Brexiteer ministers' speeches this week. Then maybe you could follow @Imissthepeanutman 's example and name the politician who now best articulates your reasons for voting Brexit. A good route to "debating the issues" as @Southbank said last night, I'd suggest.
This 'bloke in the pub' didn't happen to work in the construction industry by any chance?
Something to do with Air Conditioning I believe.
He then got out his doctorate, his Irish passport and a map of Germany.
I am listening to the World Tonight on R4. They are talking about the continuing bitter divide between Brexiters and Remainers. There was some research quoted which basically said people are so entrenched that when asked if they would take in a lodger, they would only take in one who was like minded on Brexit. And then they returned to "a pub in SE London" where they were before the referendum. They ask a guy what he thinks about Remainers. I can quote him verbatim
"Greedy bastards. Rich people. I mean, who won the war? We did."
Edit : he said "it's all money to these people" Another one said "rich people"
WTF is he talking about? In what way am I greedy by being a Remainer? Do you suppose I am "richer" than any of you? Even if that were true, why did EU membership make me richer than you? And as for the frigging war!! Who's this "we"? Not him or me, obviously. Well my Dad was one of 7 kids from Plumstead and did his time in Burma with the Royal Signals in the rank of corporal. Is that enough of a contribution? WTF? WTF is this shit? Does this guy speak for you? we are leaving the EU on the back of a wave of hateful incomprehensible bile like that?
And as for that second half at the Valley...
What a weird post. Why the fuck would any of us take responsibility for those words when they are not our own?
Plus you have seen enough of our posts to know the way we think is far from those comments.
You dissociate yourself from people who think and speak like this guy then?
You also tend to distance yourself from them when I remind you who the main politicians are who led and continue to lead Brexit. We will hear from them this week, starting with Boris Johnson, who seems to be following the Katrien Meire approach (its all going to be a wonderful new Britain, all our decisions are right, and you are going to love these shiny new ways, but you must not complain, you just have to accept it)
Do you wish to tell me that that bloke in the pub (in our part of London, and not in Stoke) is a small minority of Brexit voters; and that the vast majority voted Brexit as you did, based around your belief that Britain will prosper due to better international trading prospects, and that it was nothing to do with wanting less foreigners around, and less relationship with Germany because we once were at war with them?
Trust me on this, I really would love to believe he is a small minority. I don't like to feel disgusted and alienated by my country, and that millions of my fellow countrymen hate me because I can spell and have earned enough money through honest respectable work to live what I suppose would be termed a middle -class life, probably much the same as yours if we compared, (save that I live in another country now, as you did in the past).
Let's all consider this raft of Brexiteer ministers' speeches this week. Then maybe you could follow @Imissthepeanutman 's example and name the politician who now best articulates your reasons for voting Brexit. A good route to "debating the issues" as @Southbank said last night, I'd suggest.
You asked if 'this guy speak for you?' It was a ridiculous question as you know he does not.
Using the same type of approach I could take you up on your comment, 'because I can spell and have earned enough money through honest respectwable work to live what I suppose would be termed a middle -class life', and pretend it means that you are disassociating yourself from those not as educated as you, and that such people voted leave because they are uneducated.
So you would be standing side-by-side with Richard II against Wat Tyler as he led the Peasants Revolt from Blackheath to Smithfield? Or arguing against Sir Robert Peel when he repealed the Corn Laws because he was supporting the uneducated plebs against the landowners?
Obviously this is all ridiculous and I do not believe you would have such an approach - but it is no different to the disingenuous question you asked the leavers on here in respect of someone we most definitely would not support.
As always if somebody misreads my post I take responsibility for it, rather than assuming its the other person's fault. So just to clarify, I was paraphrasing what people like the bloke in the pub assume about me, and think is different to them about me, not how I perceive myself compared to them.
You didn't answer about whether you think he's a small minority. Excuse me if I don't think so, since even my own brother has remarkably similar views. Said to me the referendum was "a slap in my face". He very nearly got more an one back. Families divided by Brexit? Yep, count us in.
Anyway, lets move on. Should I be mollified now that Boris Johnson has "reached out to" me?
...Can't wait for this patronising plonker to remind me again how wonderful it's all going to be. Deep joy, a speech by Boris.
And once again we have the line that those not on board are "betraying" the UK.
This betrayal thing really winds me up. I’ll happily admit that there was embellished scaremongering from a lot of the remain camp during the campaign re: immediate market crashes etc, but is this the tactic of the best and brightest? Presumably this Digby Jones fella is a well educated man and holds office because he’s astute
it's criminal because he holds a very serious position and thinks he can portray this affable oaf type character and people will find it amusing and as such see him as an authentic person, humorous and such. Whereas in reality he's a c*** and needs to either start taking his position responsibly or f*** off
I am listening to the World Tonight on R4. They are talking about the continuing bitter divide between Brexiters and Remainers. There was some research quoted which basically said people are so entrenched that when asked if they would take in a lodger, they would only take in one who was like minded on Brexit. And then they returned to "a pub in SE London" where they were before the referendum. They ask a guy what he thinks about Remainers. I can quote him verbatim
"Greedy bastards. Rich people. I mean, who won the war? We did."
Edit : he said "it's all money to these people" Another one said "rich people"
WTF is he talking about? In what way am I greedy by being a Remainer? Do you suppose I am "richer" than any of you? Even if that were true, why did EU membership make me richer than you? And as for the frigging war!! Who's this "we"? Not him or me, obviously. Well my Dad was one of 7 kids from Plumstead and did his time in Burma with the Royal Signals in the rank of corporal. Is that enough of a contribution? WTF? WTF is this shit? Does this guy speak for you? we are leaving the EU on the back of a wave of hateful incomprehensible bile like that?
And as for that second half at the Valley...
What a weird post. Why the fuck would any of us take responsibility for those words when they are not our own?
Plus you have seen enough of our posts to know the way we think is far from those comments.
You dissociate yourself from people who think and speak like this guy then?
You also tend to distance yourself from them when I remind you who the main politicians are who led and continue to lead Brexit. We will hear from them this week, starting with Boris Johnson, who seems to be following the Katrien Meire approach (its all going to be a wonderful new Britain, all our decisions are right, and you are going to love these shiny new ways, but you must not complain, you just have to accept it)
Do you wish to tell me that that bloke in the pub (in our part of London, and not in Stoke) is a small minority of Brexit voters; and that the vast majority voted Brexit as you did, based around your belief that Britain will prosper due to better international trading prospects, and that it was nothing to do with wanting less foreigners around, and less relationship with Germany because we once were at war with them?
Trust me on this, I really would love to believe he is a small minority. I don't like to feel disgusted and alienated by my country, and that millions of my fellow countrymen hate me because I can spell and have earned enough money through honest respectable work to live what I suppose would be termed a middle -class life, probably much the same as yours if we compared, (save that I live in another country now, as you did in the past).
Let's all consider this raft of Brexiteer ministers' speeches this week. Then maybe you could follow @Imissthepeanutman 's example and name the politician who now best articulates your reasons for voting Brexit. A good route to "debating the issues" as @Southbank said last night, I'd suggest.
You asked if 'this guy speak for you?' It was a ridiculous question as you know he does not.
Using the same type of approach I could take you up on your comment, 'because I can spell and have earned enough money through honest respectwable work to live what I suppose would be termed a middle -class life', and pretend it means that you are disassociating yourself from those not as educated as you, and that such people voted leave because they are uneducated.
So you would be standing side-by-side with Richard II against Wat Tyler as he led the Peasants Revolt from Blackheath to Smithfield? Or arguing against Sir Robert Peel when he repealed the Corn Laws because he was supporting the uneducated plebs against the landowners?
Obviously this is all ridiculous and I do not believe you would have such an approach - but it is no different to the disingenuous question you asked the leavers on here in respect of someone we most definitely would not support.
As always if somebody misreads my post I take responsibility for it, rather than assuming its the other person's fault. So just to clarify, I was paraphrasing what people like the bloke in the pub assume about me, and think is different to them about me, not how I perceive myself compared to them.
You didn't answer about whether you think he's a small minority. Excuse me if I don't think so, since even my own brother has remarkably similar views. Said to me the referendum was "a slap in my face". He very nearly got more an one back. Families divided by Brexit? Yep, count us in.
Anyway, lets move on. Should I be mollified now that Boris Johnson has "reached out to" me?
Even if those who hate Remain voters are a minority, they were a large enough minority to swing it.
Out of 4 brothers, 1 voted to Leave, despite being a very bright man. He thought that if we left our taxes would go down because we will no longer be paying 350m a week to the EU.
I haven't bothered to ask him if he has reconsidered his view on this.
Thought juncker afterwards was superb, if that's angry god help us. He says there is no plans for a euro super state, yet announces they are going to elect a president, something the bbc reporter picked up on. Surprised no one else here has mentioned it.
Thought juncker afterwards was superb, if that's angry god help us. He says there is no plans for a euro super state, yet announces they are going to elect a president, something the bbc reporter picked up on. Surprised no one else here has mentioned it.
Why would it be mentioned? The EU, or EC as was, had had various presidents since 1958. We weren't in a European super state then, we're not in one now, and there appears to be very little desire (outside of a few bureaucrats that have neither the ability nor influence to force the issue) for one to be created anytime in the future.
Boris' speech today is part of an orchestrated set of speeches being delivered by the government collectively named "the Road to Brexit". It would be easy to fob this off as typical Boris nonsense but this is, effectively, the governments position.
As I said a couple of days ago, the chances of a no deal Brexit are pretty high and any rebellion from MPs that think remaining in the SM and CU needs to start immediately.
If only the Government could speak with such clarity! We are now 600 days on from the referendum and the clock is ticking. Those making accusations at the EU27 and/or remainers might stop to consider what concrete proposals the Cabinet has actually made?
There are only three possible outcomes for March 2019: A) abort the process as in revoke article 50 and stay in the EU. Politically that looks unlikely. B ) The Norway plus CU option - pushed though by a national coalition of centre left plus Tory rebels C) The no deal or Canada options - preferred choice of the alt-right or about 25% of the electorate
The rebellion to push through option B has already started thanks to Soubry, Clarke and others. The EU27 are under no obligation to solve this for us and would be accused (rightly) of being anti-democratic if they piled in.
On a matter of semantics it's possible to state that this is yet another Government tactic based upon obfuscation and aiming to both swing the polls plus line up scapegoats. After 600 days there is no actual position except the all encompassing "Brexit means brexit" plus the contradictory stance of wanting a deep relationship but refusing to accept the ECJ authority to resolve disputes.
A child of 10 could explain this and that's good! For we should keep things simple and ask on a weekly basis "what's the plan".
And that's where I'm vehemently opposed to a second referendum. Firstly the result is far from guaranteed and it's the wrong mechanism. But most importantly it lets the architects of this situation off the hook by providing another theatre where they can play their games.
The polls tell us consistently that the electorate wish to stay in the CU and SM and this by a large majority of 60:20 with 20% undecided. As Varoufakis has stated for nearly a year, May should place that option on the table. She won't or she can't so what next?
The nation has six months to consider that question and a variety of campaigns are lobbying Labour to take that stance. Some believe that Labour wish to force an election first so as to deliver that policy. Therefore it's in their interests to let these jokers waffle on a little longer and then crucify them at the ballot box.
In summary, the nation is going to have to tolerate this pantomime a little longer and perhaps suffer some pain before resolution - ideally before end 2018 but who knows?
'Cheapo flights to stag parties' will still be available when the UK leaves - is Johnson trying to get more simplistic phrases to put on the side of buses?
It's not in the remotest bit funny. The bloke is an insult to one of the highest offices in our land. What must other nations think of us that he's our best choice to represent the UK!
My mum and dad however, and sadly many, many like them, will find what he said today endearing/amusing and read whatever else they want to into a speech with zero detail. And as always it's more important to some, like my old man, that whatever Boris or Farage says (or doesn't say) winds up the lefty snowflakes* than him actually saying anything of genuine interest policywise, etc.
Sadly we've long since entered the realms of personality politics.
*my dad has actually started using this phrase ffs. He's nearly 80.
Thought juncker afterwards was superb, if that's angry god help us. He says there is no plans for a euro super state, yet announces they are going to elect a president, something the bbc reporter picked up on. Surprised no one else here has mentioned it.
Why would it be mentioned? The EU, or EC as was, had had various presidents since 1958. We weren't in a European super state then, we're not in one now, and there appears to be very little desire (outside of a few bureaucrats that have neither the ability nor influence to force the issue) for one to be created anytime in the future.
Comments
Philosophically is the word I used, if invoking that concept is 'hyperbole at it's worst' then your life experience is considerably different to mine.
I had thought the passage of time would help, but nothing from the leave side has managed that. They won, they are triumphalist, sneering, dismissive, ignorant, lacking in idea or a plan and to my mind anti reason, anti logic and stupid.
They are the 52% who are now in charge, and although I am obliged to stay in this country physically, philosophically I feel homeless, and weirdly ashamed.
You also tend to distance yourself from them when I remind you who the main politicians are who led and continue to lead Brexit. We will hear from them this week, starting with Boris Johnson, who seems to be following the Katrien Meire approach (its all going to be a wonderful new Britain, all our decisions are right, and you are going to love these shiny new ways, but you must not complain, you just have to accept it)
Do you wish to tell me that that bloke in the pub (in our part of London, and not in Stoke) is a small minority of Brexit voters; and that the vast majority voted Brexit as you did, based around your belief that Britain will prosper due to better international trading prospects, and that it was nothing to do with wanting less foreigners around, and less relationship with Germany because we once were at war with them?
Trust me on this, I really would love to believe he is a small minority. I don't like to feel disgusted and alienated by my country, and that millions of my fellow countrymen hate me because I can spell and have earned enough money through honest respectable work to live what I suppose would be termed a middle -class life, probably much the same as yours if we compared, (save that I live in another country now, as you did in the past).
Let's all consider this raft of Brexiteer ministers' speeches this week. Then maybe you could follow @Imissthepeanutman 's example and name the politician who now best articulates your reasons for voting Brexit. A good route to "debating the issues" as @Southbank said last night, I'd suggest.
1) Brexit requires detailed and complex negotiations by intelligent, diligent, savvy negotiators/politicians
2) We have very few to none of the above, especially in any important positions
That is why remain was the only sensible vote, because whatever you want, whether that be a successful Brexit or to remain, won't be achieved under our current leaders. If you really want to leave the EU, then the way to achieve it would to have been to have a long term plan to vote in the kind of leaders that could possibly make it a success first, not vote out and then hope beyond hope that the shower of shite we currently have somehow perform a miracle.
Brexiteers will love it, I'd be surprised if he convinced a single Remainer.
You asked if 'this guy speak for you?' It was a ridiculous question as you know he does not.
Using the same type of approach I could take you up on your comment, 'because I can spell and have earned enough money through honest respectable work to live what I suppose would be termed a middle -class life', and pretend it means that you are disassociating yourself from those not as educated as you, and that such people voted leave because they are uneducated.
So you would be standing side-by-side with Richard II against Wat Tyler as he led the Peasants Revolt from Blackheath to Smithfield? Or arguing against Sir Robert Peel when he repealed the Corn Laws because he was supporting the uneducated plebs against the landowners?
Obviously this is all ridiculous and I do not believe you would have such an approach - but it is no different to the disingenuous question you asked the leavers on here in respect of someone we most definitely would not support.
Philosophically or not, I don't feel 'foreign' although i voted remain - your post, i feel, spoke only for you, rather than others. If you were invoking a concept for discussion, then cool - but that's not how it reads.
Mind you, the 'will of the British people' narrative is often invoked by brexiters to suggest they are a part of an homogenous 52% yet there probably is a spectrum of views.
Despite any range of views and opinions there remains the edifice of the referendum. A line drawn or created that has established the divide and forced the issue.
There is no compromise regarding brexit, in that way I agree with the brexiteers that brexit means brexit, just like a border is a border, just like there is a notion of an 'us' and a 'them'. All the terms used to modify like 'soft' or 'frictionless' are meaningless.
What isn't meaningless are the practical boots on the ground implications of the choice by the 52%, and what is becoming increasingly and frighteningly apparent is that the 52% don't have any practical ideas, unless they're a secret of some kind.
Your reply started with the term 'foreign' which you put in inverted commas because I assume you feel it is a term or notion up for debate.
One definition may be something involving 'differences' between people, and I feel that, very different to the majority who chose this present course.
Fixed it for you Boris.
You didn't answer about whether you think he's a small minority. Excuse me if I don't think so, since even my own brother has remarkably similar views. Said to me the referendum was "a slap in my face". He very nearly got more an one back. Families divided by Brexit? Yep, count us in.
Anyway, lets move on. Should I be mollified now that Boris Johnson has "reached out to" me?
Out of 4 brothers, 1 voted to Leave, despite being a very bright man. He thought that if we left our taxes would go down because we will no longer be paying 350m a week to the EU.
I haven't bothered to ask him if he has reconsidered his view on this.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_presidents_of_the_institutions_of_the_European_Union#Historic_office_holders
There are only three possible outcomes for March 2019:
A) abort the process as in revoke article 50 and stay in the EU. Politically that looks unlikely.
B ) The Norway plus CU option - pushed though by a national coalition of centre left plus Tory rebels
C) The no deal or Canada options - preferred choice of the alt-right or about 25% of the electorate
The rebellion to push through option B has already started thanks to Soubry, Clarke and others. The EU27 are under no obligation to solve this for us and would be accused (rightly) of being anti-democratic if they piled in.
On a matter of semantics it's possible to state that this is yet another Government tactic based upon obfuscation and aiming to both swing the polls plus line up scapegoats. After 600 days there is no actual position except the all encompassing "Brexit means brexit" plus the contradictory stance of wanting a deep relationship but refusing to accept the ECJ authority to resolve disputes.
A child of 10 could explain this and that's good! For we should keep things simple and ask on a weekly basis "what's the plan".
And that's where I'm vehemently opposed to a second referendum. Firstly the result is far from guaranteed and it's the wrong mechanism. But most importantly it lets the architects of this situation off the hook by providing another theatre where they can play their games.
The polls tell us consistently that the electorate wish to stay in the CU and SM and this by a large majority of 60:20 with 20% undecided. As Varoufakis has stated for nearly a year, May should place that option on the table. She won't or she can't so what next?
The nation has six months to consider that question and a variety of campaigns are lobbying Labour to take that stance. Some believe that Labour wish to force an election first so as to deliver that policy. Therefore it's in their interests to let these jokers waffle on a little longer and then crucify them at the ballot box.
In summary, the nation is going to have to tolerate this pantomime a little longer and perhaps suffer some pain before resolution - ideally before end 2018 but who knows?
My mum and dad however, and sadly many, many like them, will find what he said today endearing/amusing and read whatever else they want to into a speech with zero detail. And as always it's more important to some, like my old man, that whatever Boris or Farage says (or doesn't say) winds up the lefty snowflakes* than him actually saying anything of genuine interest policywise, etc.
Sadly we've long since entered the realms of personality politics.
*my dad has actually started using this phrase ffs. He's nearly 80.
Astounding that someone who is a daily contributor to this thread and a hugely vocal opponent of the EU does not even know this basic fact.