Constructive dismissal

Gumbo

Hi anyone help, I've look over the Internet and tried to find advice but not sure really sure about constructive dismissal
Nearly 6 months ago I was offered a promotion on a "acting or interim" bases, with a probation as a regional manager, anyway long story cut short. I have basically found out via an email sent to an engineer which I was cc in on, that my job had been offered to someone outside the company the email included all personal info an the salary offered

Can a company advertise or recurit a job even if that role is filled?

Anyone know if I have any grounds for constructive dismissal or because I'm in my probation it's back luck?

Thanks

Gumbo

Rob7Lee

Why was the job "acting or interim"? That indicates that it was only for a temporary period.

Weegie Addick

Might be worth trying Citizens Advice as a first port of call? How long have you been with the company overall?

seth plum

Are you in a Union by any chance?

Gumbo

The role was more a trainee role as his was my first managerial job (basically regional manager) 2years I've been with the company

Gumbo

seth plum said:

Are you in a Union by any chance?

No industrial and automatic door company don't tend to get involved with unions

seth plum

Gumbo said:

seth plum said:

Are you in a Union by any chance?

No industrial and automatic door company don't tend to get involved with unions

OK.
However it is usually the workforce who sort out their Trade Union arrangements, not the actual company itself.
I suspect you work in an area that isn't traditionally unionised anyway.

Gumbo

seth plum said:

Gumbo said:

seth plum said:

Are you in a Union by any chance?

No industrial and automatic door company don't tend to get involved with unions

OK.
However it is usually the workforce who sort out their Trade Union arrangements, not the actual company itself.
I suspect you work in an area that isn't traditionally unionised anyway.

Correct

Northstandpieeater

Ita not agaisnt the lawn to rexruit without an internal proccess but it may be agaisnt policy which would constitute breachbof contract. This on its own would not imo opinion constitute constructive dismissal.

On a note about unions does not matter if your company does not reconise them you have the legal right to join one. Once ina union you have the right tonbe repesented by them regardless of what you company think.

cabbles

@bobmunro knows his onions here gumbo.

I think from what you've said you were only offered the job on an interim basis, therefore the company were in their right to keep looking etc.

Unfortunately you aren't working for Roland Dutchatelet as manager of one of his football clubs. That's the only occasion in my life I've known an interim managerial role to be permanent

Covered End

We'd need more detail to be clear. But if you were on probation and haven't been offered the post permanently, then presumably, you didn't pass the probation.

On the face of it I can't see any grounds for constructive dismissal.

Presumably, you will just revert to your previous role ?

Sorry about that.

Gumbo

cabbles said:

@bobmunro knows his onions here gumbo.

I think from what you've said you were only offered the job on an interim basis, therefore the company were in their right to keep looking etc.

Unfortunately you aren't working for Roland Dutchatelet as manager of one of his football clubs. That's the only occasion in my life I've known an interim managerial role to be permanent

This has cheered me up lol

cfgs

Weegie Addick said:

Might be worth trying Citizens Advice as a first port of call? How long have you been with the company overall?

I tried Citizens Advice for some work colleagues once, they were useless (which could have been simply to do with the person I saw).

Good luck @Gumbo

Gumbo

Covered End said:

We'd need more detail to be clear. But if you were on probation and haven't been offered the post permanently, then presumably, you didn't pass the probation.

On the face of it I can't see any grounds for constructive dismissal.

Presumably, you will just revert to your previous role ?

Sorry about that.

Haven't been told I haven't passed my probation. Just feels like a stab in the back as I was hitting figures

bobmunro

Gumbo said:

Hi anyone help, I've look over the Internet and tried to find advice but not sure really sure about constructive dismissal
Nearly 6 months ago I was offered a promotion on a "acting or interim" bases, with a probation as a regional manager, anyway long story cut short. I have basically found out via an email sent to an engineer which I was cc in on, that my job had been offered to someone outside the company the email included all personal info an the salary offered

Can a company advertise or recurit a job even if that role is filled?

Anyone know if I have any grounds for constructive dismissal or because I'm in my probation it's back luck?

Thanks

Gumbo

You need two years' service to acquire employment rights, including the right to bring a claim for unfair dismissal (either ordinary or constructive). The two year qualification is not required if the claim relates to discrimination on the grounds of a protected characteristic (sex, disability, age etc...). But I've just read further down that you have that service anyway.

The probation thing is a red herring to a degree, you state that it was on an 'acting or interim' basis. You were not confirmed as permanent in the role and as such the company would quite reasonably seek to fill the role permanently with either another candidate (internal or external) or indeed yourself. As such they were perfectly within their rights to seek applications whilst you were carrying out the 'acting' role. It would seem they believe they have found a candidate they are happy to confirm as permanent and unfortunately it would appear that is not you. That isn't necessarily a negative for you, it just may be that they have found someone with significant experience who is better suited to the role. Contractually they are obliged to return you to your substantive role at the previous terms and conditions.

It may be that they have not handled the situation too well but there was never the promise of it becoming permanent. As such, your chances of resigning and then winning a unfair constructive dismissal claim are pretty remote.

The above is based on just the information you have provided and as such is not comprehensive based on all the circumstances that may exist that you haven't included.

Covered End

Gumbo said:

Covered End said:

We'd need more detail to be clear. But if you were on probation and haven't been offered the post permanently, then presumably, you didn't pass the probation.

On the face of it I can't see any grounds for constructive dismissal.

Presumably, you will just revert to your previous role ?

Sorry about that.

Haven't been told I haven't passed my probation. Just feels like a stab in the back as I was hitting figures

If it was me, I would ask to meet my boss (whoever is the decision maker) to discuss the situation.

(Obviously in a cool, calm and collected manner).

If you weren't successful, they will need to be able to justify their decision.

Best of luck.

Gumbo

bobmunro said:

Gumbo said:

Hi anyone help, I've look over the Internet and tried to find advice but not sure really sure about constructive dismissal
Nearly 6 months ago I was offered a promotion on a "acting or interim" bases, with a probation as a regional manager, anyway long story cut short. I have basically found out via an email sent to an engineer which I was cc in on, that my job had been offered to someone outside the company the email included all personal info an the salary offered

Can a company advertise or recurit a job even if that role is filled?

Anyone know if I have any grounds for constructive dismissal or because I'm in my probation it's back luck?

Thanks

Gumbo

You need two years' service to acquire employment rights, including the right to bring a claim for unfair dismissal (either ordinary or constructive). The two year qualification is not required if the claim relates to discrimination on the grounds of a protected characteristic (sex, disability, age etc...). But I've just read further down that you have that service anyway.

The probation thing is a red herring to a degree, you state that it was on an 'acting or interim' basis. You were not confirmed as permanent in the role and as such the company would quite reasonably seek to fill the role permanently with either another candidate (internal or external) or indeed yourself. As such they were perfectly within their rights to seek applications whilst you were carrying out the 'acting' role. It would seem they believe they have found a candidate they are happy to confirm as permanent and unfortunately it would appear that is not you. That isn't necessarily a negative for you, it just may be that they have found someone with significant experience who is better suited to the role. Contractually they are obliged to return you to your substantive role at the previous terms and conditions.

It may be that they have not handled the situation too well but there was never the promise of it becoming permanent. As such, your chances of resigning and then winning a unfair constructive dismissal claim are pretty remote.

The above is based on just the information you have provided and as such is not comprehensive based on all the circumstances that may exist that you haven't included.

Thank you for your help

seth plum

Citizens advice is volunteer run as far as I can tell. It might still be worth approaching the nearest type of Union to what you do, because they usually have access to people experienced in workplace issues and the rules and stuff and they might be prepared to help and advise, or point you in the direction of somebody useful.
I think it is a shame that you have met your targets and done what is required, but that hasn't been enough seemingly to make the position yours, but as it was not a permanent position to start off with, you may be unfortunate on this one.

bobmunro

Gumbo said:

bobmunro said:

Gumbo said:

Hi anyone help, I've look over the Internet and tried to find advice but not sure really sure about constructive dismissal
Nearly 6 months ago I was offered a promotion on a "acting or interim" bases, with a probation as a regional manager, anyway long story cut short. I have basically found out via an email sent to an engineer which I was cc in on, that my job had been offered to someone outside the company the email included all personal info an the salary offered

Can a company advertise or recurit a job even if that role is filled?

Anyone know if I have any grounds for constructive dismissal or because I'm in my probation it's back luck?

Thanks

Gumbo

You need two years' service to acquire employment rights, including the right to bring a claim for unfair dismissal (either ordinary or constructive). The two year qualification is not required if the claim relates to discrimination on the grounds of a protected characteristic (sex, disability, age etc...). But I've just read further down that you have that service anyway.

The probation thing is a red herring to a degree, you state that it was on an 'acting or interim' basis. You were not confirmed as permanent in the role and as such the company would quite reasonably seek to fill the role permanently with either another candidate (internal or external) or indeed yourself. As such they were perfectly within their rights to seek applications whilst you were carrying out the 'acting' role. It would seem they believe they have found a candidate they are happy to confirm as permanent and unfortunately it would appear that is not you. That isn't necessarily a negative for you, it just may be that they have found someone with significant experience who is better suited to the role. Contractually they are obliged to return you to your substantive role at the previous terms and conditions.

It may be that they have not handled the situation too well but there was never the promise of it becoming permanent. As such, your chances of resigning and then winning a unfair constructive dismissal claim are pretty remote.

The above is based on just the information you have provided and as such is not comprehensive based on all the circumstances that may exist that you haven't included.

Thank you for your help

My invoice is in the post!!

Happy to advise but probably not the answer you were hoping for.

Gumbo

bobmunro said:

Gumbo said:

bobmunro said:

Gumbo said:

Hi anyone help, I've look over the Internet and tried to find advice but not sure really sure about constructive dismissal
Nearly 6 months ago I was offered a promotion on a "acting or interim" bases, with a probation as a regional manager, anyway long story cut short. I have basically found out via an email sent to an engineer which I was cc in on, that my job had been offered to someone outside the company the email included all personal info an the salary offered

Can a company advertise or recurit a job even if that role is filled?

Anyone know if I have any grounds for constructive dismissal or because I'm in my probation it's back luck?

Thanks

Gumbo

You need two years' service to acquire employment rights, including the right to bring a claim for unfair dismissal (either ordinary or constructive). The two year qualification is not required if the claim relates to discrimination on the grounds of a protected characteristic (sex, disability, age etc...). But I've just read further down that you have that service anyway.

The probation thing is a red herring to a degree, you state that it was on an 'acting or interim' basis. You were not confirmed as permanent in the role and as such the company would quite reasonably seek to fill the role permanently with either another candidate (internal or external) or indeed yourself. As such they were perfectly within their rights to seek applications whilst you were carrying out the 'acting' role. It would seem they believe they have found a candidate they are happy to confirm as permanent and unfortunately it would appear that is not you. That isn't necessarily a negative for you, it just may be that they have found someone with significant experience who is better suited to the role. Contractually they are obliged to return you to your substantive role at the previous terms and conditions.

It may be that they have not handled the situation too well but there was never the promise of it becoming permanent. As such, your chances of resigning and then winning a unfair constructive dismissal claim are pretty remote.

The above is based on just the information you have provided and as such is not comprehensive based on all the circumstances that may exist that you haven't included.

Thank you for your help

My invoice is in the post!!

Happy to advise but probably not the answer you were hoping for.

Again thank you was jus looking at were I stand really just I case it got into a dog fight

SDAddick

Covered End said:

Gumbo said:

Covered End said:

We'd need more detail to be clear. But if you were on probation and haven't been offered the post permanently, then presumably, you didn't pass the probation.

On the face of it I can't see any grounds for constructive dismissal.

Presumably, you will just revert to your previous role ?

Sorry about that.

Haven't been told I haven't passed my probation. Just feels like a stab in the back as I was hitting figures

If it was me, I would ask to meet my boss (whoever is the decision maker) to discuss the situation.

(Obviously in a cool, calm and collected manner).

If you weren't successful, they will need to be able to justify their decision.

Best of luck.

Very much this.

The last time I worked on the delivery side full time I had my supervisor tell me they wanted to see what I did every day in a half hour meeting at the end of the day. This was two weeks into me getting there as I was JUST learning the system and the team. I was informed of this via a meeting invite which didn't refer to me by name but as "the Business Analyst." So I called him straight away and was...more direct than he expected.

So, my advice would be this, give it the weekend. I don't know how you process things, but for me personally I prefer to speak to people directly and frankly if something goes wrong, BUT, that is not what is always best for the collective--the company, my future there, etc. As a good friend and mentor always tells me, make sure you check your ego and that you're not doing things purely to satisfy your ego. I say this as someone who can sometimes be a bit rash and direct in part because of my ego and insecurities.

That said, it doesn't sound like you're acting in an egotistical sense here. If you didn't pass the test they should explain to you why not, and hopefully that can be done in a constructive way. Sometimes we're put into rolls that we're not yet ready for or that aren't the right fit. My example above was one of those, as soon as I got that meeting invite it confirmed what I suspected--that job wasn't for me (it didn't help that I was working ~4am-5pm my time).

If they promoted you in an "interim" capacity, I hope they gave clear goals as to what it would take to keep that job, or at least some mentoring or teaching as to how to do that job. If not, I'd discuss that with them as well, because I think you're well within your right to say "I didn't know what success meant here" and/or "you didn't help me to be successful." it should be the job of the people "in charge" to make sure that other people succeed. That is, after all, part of what they're judged on. As an aside, it's why I blame RD far far far far more than KM, she was put in a job where she only could fail, and he has done nothing to set her up for success, even though that's his job.


I hope this makes some sort of coherent sense. It's been a very long day and I'm a bit tired. Good luck!

Kap10

seth plum said:

Citizens advice is volunteer run as far as I can tell. It might still be worth approaching the nearest type of Union to what you do, because they usually have access to people experienced in workplace issues and the rules and stuff and they might be prepared to help and advise, or point you in the direction of somebody useful.
I think it is a shame that you have met your targets and done what is required, but that hasn't been enough seemingly to make the position yours, but as it was not a permanent position to start off with, you may be unfortunate on this one.

ACAS are a good source of advice on employment issues. I have used them a couple if times but it was a while ago and I'm not sure if government cuts have affected them. Google them for contact details.

Gumbo

I haven't been able to sleep all night thinking of things to say etc, I know I've made mistakes and I've learnt the hard way, but I've kept my side of the bargain, even I would understand if they wanted an more experience person doing the role it's a very tough gig, but the part that stuck in my throat is the PDF letter sent to an engineer offering another person (who doesn't work for the company) my job with his salary and personal details!! So know all my engineers know/knew before I did!!

AddicksAddict

seth plum said:

Gumbo said:

seth plum said:

Are you in a Union by any chance?

No industrial and automatic door company don't tend to get involved with unions

OK.
However it is usually the workforce who sort out their Trade Union arrangements, not the actual company itself.
I suspect you work in an area that isn't traditionally unionised anyway.

I used to, too. Didn't stop me joining a relevant union.

Dazzler21

You don't seem to be being dismissed? I would expect they'll return you to your previous role. This is usually the case after a secondment if they feel the person seconded to a role isn't good enough.

AFKABartram

Sorry to hear mate, hope all sorts out. I'd point out to your boss what a good,reliable, loyal employee you are and you think you deserved to be treated with a bit more respect than having to hear about your future from a bunch of engineers

Don't end up losing your job over it though mate

Henry Irving

Gumbo said:

I haven't been able to sleep all night thinking of things to say etc, I know I've made mistakes and I've learnt the hard way, but I've kept my side of the bargain, even I would understand if they wanted an more experience person doing the role it's a very tough gig, but the part that stuck in my throat is the PDF letter sent to an engineer offering another person (who doesn't work for the company) my job with his salary and personal details!! So know all my engineers know/knew before I did!!

I think this is the point.

You deserved to be treated a lot better and more honestly but managers are often fearful of conflict or giving bad news.

They should have told you upfront but didn't.

I would suggest you confirm an appointment with the manager and rather than throw a volley of complaints at them ask them to explain the situation and how they reached that decision. That should tell you far more.

It's hard but try to stay "adult" while also making it clear you feel the company hasn't acted professionally.

Unfortunately, as Bob says, legally you don't have a case. Morally, they have acted like shits.

Not a nice thing to happen to anyone, sorry to hear it happened.

cabbles

Gumbo said:

I haven't been able to sleep all night thinking of things to say etc, I know I've made mistakes and I've learnt the hard way, but I've kept my side of the bargain, even I would understand if they wanted an more experience person doing the role it's a very tough gig, but the part that stuck in my throat is the PDF letter sent to an engineer offering another person (who doesn't work for the company) my job with his salary and personal details!! So know all my engineers know/knew before I did!!

It's slightly careless that that email was sent and you were cc'd in it.

I've had many nights getting wound up about conversations I'm going to have to have at work and in life in general. You find yourself playing out arguments etc

The only practical advice I can offer is to try and take the emotion out of the conversation. Try (as hard as it may seem) to be very matter of fact, remember to breathe (sounds stupid but it helps) and see if you can try and detach yourself from the moment sort of thing

That might not make a lot of sense but what I'm trying to say is you've had a relatively sleepless night and conversations that are emotionally charged aren't great

Good luck mate

Carter

Failing all of that, go rogue and destroy them amd all of their property and assets you hold

JohnBoyUK

cabbles said:

I've had many nights getting wound up about conversations I'm going to have to have at work and in life in general. You find yourself playing out arguments etc

As an aside Cabbles, glad someone else does that. I thought it was only me. I've lost count of the number of arguments I have in my head with and it makes me bloody feel awful!

Best of luck Gumbo.

seth plum

I once had a very tough experience with my then boss my method of getting a grip was to write it all down, a variation on cabbles very good deep breathing advice. You can write a chronological account of your experience (bullet points would work) or even a kind of proto script of what you want to say. Prepare your strategy and everybody benefits. An emotional response might be justified, but in some situations it is best to be cool headed.
You might need a sparkling reference some day.