did he criticise the government the day it happened? Yes
is the government coservative? Yes
edit; may visited the site yesterday, the constant blubbing over everything she does is quite irritating, suppose this will be a constant until corbyn is pm.
Bit like the people on here who leap to blame Khan for anything and everything that happens in London including on this thread and this fire.
ive never blamed khan, the way he handled the media after 2 terrorist attacks i think was bad.
Never said you did but Carlyburn did though and isn't May being blamed for the way she's acted after the fire?
Khan says "People shouldn't be alarmed when they see armed police and soldiers on the streets of London" and this is spun as Khan said people shouldn't be alarmed by the London bridge attack.
was more the “part and parcel of living in a big city" i was referring to but this isn't the time or the place, so ill leave it at that.
No, it's not the place but to just to kill another piece of spin this is what he said in context
"Sadiq Khan has said he believes the threat of terror attacks are “part and parcel of living in a big city” and encouraged Londoners to be vigilant to combat dangers.
The Mayor of London revealed he had a “sleepless night” after the recent bombing in New York, and said major cities around the world “have got to be prepared for these sorts of things” to happen when people least expect them.
“That means being vigilant, having a police force that is in touch with communities, it means the security services being ready, but it also means exchanging ideas and best practice”, Mr Khan told the Evening Standard shortly before a meeting with New York mayor Bill de Blasio.
Key word is "Threat" but that has been spun as Khan saying "Attacks" are part and parcel of living in a big city" with the implication that he thinks that is OK when clearly he isn't saying that.
did he criticise the government the day it happened? Yes
is the government coservative? Yes
edit; may visited the site yesterday, the constant blubbing over everything she does is quite irritating, suppose this will be a constant until corbyn is pm.
Bit like the people on here who leap to blame Khan for anything and everything that happens in London including on this thread and this fire.
ive never blamed khan, the way he handled the media after 2 terrorist attacks i think was bad.
Never said you did but Carlyburn did though and isn't May being blamed for the way she's acted after the fire?
Khan says "People shouldn't be alarmed when they see armed police and soldiers on the streets of London" and this is spun as Khan said people shouldn't be alarmed by the London bridge attack.
When are sprinklers goingto be installed in all high rise blocks? I am getting angrier this has not been announced yet!
Because it's virtually impossible to do.
It took me three years to get approval for and support funding from KFRS to retrofit a sprinkler system to a 10 storey block in North Kent.
Resident consultation, Section 20 notices to all leaseholders - three of whom we were unable to find as they lived overseas and sub let their flat - our tenants as well as leaseholders refusing to allow the contractors access to their flats and political pressure to make sure we can't force this on them.
Opposition to the additional service charges for servicing and maintaining the new systems.
Problems trying to find the best contractors and subbies to carry out the works -and the price increase when they knew we had 50% grant funding.
Problems with South East water and their ability to provide the block with a guaranteed water supply, let alone the post installation problems we've had with supplies at the required pressure.
The work is finished but we've still not been able to complete it to six flats. If there is a fire in one of them, then we have to rely on the alarm system and compartmentation to work.
Oh, and the average cost per flat was £3,170. So please don't accept marketing figures for a one installation that are just not happening in the real world
The sooner the Building Regulations are changed to ensure all new high rise blocks and all buildings that house vulnerable people have sprinklers then the better.
The retrofitting of sprinklers in existing building is a completely different kettle of fish and I'd prefer those who know fuck all about this apart from what they read from shouty posters on twitter, to actually wait and see what caused this horrific fire, how it spread so quickly, why did the passive fire protection fail and if the rumours about failures in the active protection are true or not.
I do respect and understand what you are saying, but I don't suppose the residents who were voicing their concerns were experts in fire safety. Maybe that is part of the reason their concerns were ignored. What I do know is that the experts in fire safety did not protect them.
And I have this morning seen on the TV experts in fire safety calling for retro fitting of sprinklers. There is an expert report dating from 2013 demanding this. What is the difference between these people and you? As a non expert I think that is a fair question - and it is not meant in an aggresive way.
None taken, Happy to explain.
Firstly, there are massive concerns from residents about the disruption. Elderly and disabled particularly find this kind of disruption to their daily lives unbearable. And it is an unbelievably messy job retrofittng a sprinkler system. The first residential building site I've visited where ear defenders are compulsory.
My previous post on this explains the first example I've worked on - meanwhile our development team have built three buildings with sprinkler systems in - over and above the building regulations and despite massive opposition from some of our senior management team. Attitudes changed slightly after I got someone in to explain to them the extent of the Corporate Manslaughter Act.
Of course, if you make it law then it will happen, but its not an overnight fix. It will take at least a decade to complete.
A quick win would be to introduce the requirement now, for all new builds of four storeys or over to have a sprinkler or mist system installed during construction, I see no reason why this cannot happen today.
Not sure this fully answered my questions. And again, I am asking because I am interested and want to inform my view - not because I want to undermine or score points and I am not demanding you answer. It is clear that it is not easy, but when other experts are saying it should have happened, what expert are we supposed to accept is right?
And is there not a potential danger if we are experts and know more that we might ignore concerns of people who are not qualified, but do live in the building?
On breakfast TV this morning - there was the safety expert who worked on the Shard - he said sprinklers should have been fitted and should now be fitted. A few may have seen it. Should we ignore what he has said? Can you see it is quite confusing when diffeerent experts tell us different things.
did he criticise the government the day it happened? Yes
is the government coservative? Yes
edit; may visited the site yesterday, the constant blubbing over everything she does is quite irritating, suppose this will be a constant until corbyn is pm.
Bit like the people on here who leap to blame Khan for anything and everything that happens in London including on this thread and this fire.
ive never blamed khan, the way he handled the media after 2 terrorist attacks i think was bad.
I agree and he looked way out of his depth yesterday too. Not a criticism as it's obviously difficult situations he has faced but if you are Mayor of London you need to look and sound more authoritative.
He is the Mayor of London second, a human being first. Yes he is out of his depth, as would be any human being - nobody has had to swim in such deep waters for a very long time and nothing can prepare anyone for what London and the country has faced over the past few months.
He's struggling to be Mayoral when what I'm sure he wants to do is break down in tears like the rest of us. Maybe cut him some slack, as well as May and all the politicians. The cause and the blame, if there is any, will come in due course. The important thing now is to support the victims with whatever they need and quickly identify why the fire spread so quickly so that immediate remedial action can be taken - whatever the cost.
Apportioning blame at this point is futile although there is eventual cause to do so.
@Addicted has given us a real insight into the realities of tower block management. I'm sure that in the conventional sense Grenfell House met those requirements.
The real issue is accepting the fact that the materials used or perhaps way they were installed (the cladding) have actually made what might and should have been a contained fire much worse to the point where it is now a national disaster.
No materials should have the ability to act as they did. We have a right to expect that building regulations protect us from designs and materials which are not completely safe. This is where there has been a massive failure.
You cannot buy a sofa that is not fully fire retardant. It will smoulder for a long time before it ignites. We are rightly protected. I just don't understand how any material, design or installation in 2017 in building construction can actually have caused this disaster.
We have the right to demand that this is remedied as soon as the details of what is required are known. Regardless of cost.
Ask yourself the question : if you lived in a tower block that has undergone this type of renovation would you feel safe and happy to carry on living there ?
I'm sure all experts are agreed there has been a massive failure in the fire protection at Grenfell - all concerned parties need to be involved in improving our fire regulations.
This isn't simply a matter of cost it's also about neglect from Governments both Labour and Conservative in not being proactive enough in reviewing regulations to make them fit for purpose. Building techniques change and if the regulations are not kept up to date then there will be problems.
We need some leadership not the constant passing the buck and blame game that we are witnessing.
Can't believe we have so many wankers as Charlton fans,trying to score political points when a tragedy such as this is still unraveling before us.
Beggars believe.
Sadly, it doesn't beggar belief: it has become entirely predictable and mirrors the 'Terrorist Attacks' formula. A couple of pages of 'RIP to the victims' followed by rafts of knee-jerk conjecture, insensitivity and the ever tiresome political point scoring by the same ever tiresome protagonists. The comments of the firemen on here, along with those of Addickted are welcome 'relief' if there can be such a thing in the light of such an awful tragedy.
Can't believe we have so many wankers as Charlton fans,trying to score political points when a tragedy such as this is still unraveling before us.
Beggars believe.
Sadly, it doesn't beggar belief: it has become entirely predictable and mirrors the 'Terrorist Attacks' formula. A couple of pages of 'RIP to the victims' followed by rafts of knee-jerk conjecture, insensitivity and the ever tiresome political point scoring by the same ever tiresome protagonists. The comments of the firemen on here, along with those of Addickted are welcome 'relief' if there can be such a thing in the light of such an awful tragedy.
I think some sort of debate is inevitable given the size of the failing here - this is a forum and all different views will appear. I'm sure everyone on here is upset and nobody wants this to happen again.
Its not Mays, Khans or for that matter any politicians fault. What is at fault is the collective responsibility of the political classes. They party politic. They procrastinate. They look to save money at every juncture because that's what the public demand. £10 a year on the rates or 1p in the pound on income tax is politilly unacceptable even when it's the right thing to do. The NHS is on its knees and more money must be found but "we" baulk at having to pay more. Until society realises that having things right costs money we will continue to have poor everything.
What frustrates more than anything is our government whatever political party has been in power has neglected these properties and people for decades by denying the funding for the maintenance people to carry out the job properly yet we can budget/spend £60 million a year checking for water on the fecking moon
Can't believe we have so many wankers as Charlton fans,trying to score political points when a tragedy such as this is still unraveling before us.
Beggars believe.
Sadly, it doesn't beggar belief: it has become entirely predictable and mirrors the 'Terrorist Attacks' formula. A couple of pages of 'RIP to the victims' followed by rafts of knee-jerk conjecture, insensitivity and the ever tiresome political point scoring by the same ever tiresome protagonists. The comments of the firemen on here, along with those of Addickted are welcome 'relief' if there can be such a thing in the light of such an awful tragedy.
I think some sort of debate is inevitable given the size of the failing here - this is a forum and all different views will appear. I'm sure everyone on here is upset and nobody wants this to happen again.
It's a free country isn't it?
I wasn't saying the subject shouldn't be debated, rather that the nature of it was entirely predictable.
What frustrates more than anything is our government whatever political party has been in power has neglected these properties and people for decades by denying the funding for the maintenance people to carry out the job properly yet we can budget/spend £60 million a year checking for water on the fecking moon
Absolute rubbish.
Funding is not an issue. Who do you think pays for the servicing and maintenance of the fire safety equipment at blocks like this? It's the residents through their service charge.
When are sprinklers goingto be installed in all high rise blocks? I am getting angrier this has not been announced yet!
Because it's virtually impossible to do.
It took me three years to get approval for and support funding from KFRS to retrofit a sprinkler system to a 10 storey block in North Kent.
Resident consultation, Section 20 notices to all leaseholders - three of whom we were unable to find as they lived overseas and sub let their flat - our tenants as well as leaseholders refusing to allow the contractors access to their flats and political pressure to make sure we can't force this on them.
Opposition to the additional service charges for servicing and maintaining the new systems.
Problems trying to find the best contractors and subbies to carry out the works -and the price increase when they knew we had 50% grant funding.
Problems with South East water and their ability to provide the block with a guaranteed water supply, let alone the post installation problems we've had with supplies at the required pressure.
The work is finished but we've still not been able to complete it to six flats. If there is a fire in one of them, then we have to rely on the alarm system and compartmentation to work.
Oh, and the average cost per flat was £3,170. So please don't accept marketing figures for a one installation that are just not happening in the real world
The sooner the Building Regulations are changed to ensure all new high rise blocks and all buildings that house vulnerable people have sprinklers then the better.
The retrofitting of sprinklers in existing building is a completely different kettle of fish and I'd prefer those who know fuck all about this apart from what they read from shouty posters on twitter, to actually wait and see what caused this horrific fire, how it spread so quickly, why did the passive fire protection fail and if the rumours about failures in the active protection are true or not.
At last, a post from someone who knows what he's talking about. As for your last paragraph, I couldn't agree more.
Agreed. Presume @Addickted excellent posts have been cleared by the self appointed experts on here who already know the causes, the solutions and who to blame. I wish the normal suspects who can't resist any opportunity for political point scoring would just give it a rest for once.
What frustrates more than anything is our government whatever political party has been in power has neglected these properties and people for decades by denying the funding for the maintenance people to carry out the job properly yet we can budget/spend £60 million a year checking for water on the fecking moon
Absolute rubbish.
Funding is not an issue. Who do you think pays for the servicing and maintenance of the fire safety equipment at blocks like this? It's the residents through their service charge.
I think it is more complicated than that and not a reference to specific fire safety equipment. Because they may pay through their service charges -but it doesn't mean corners were not cut by somebody. It doesn't mean they were either. Let's see what comes out of it before we say one person is talking rubbish and another isn't. I think putting these things out there demonstrates that angry people want answers which is understandable and they shouldn't be shot down for it because some of these questions require a proper answer.
I'm sure the residents who voiced concerns to meetings on 19 occasions and were seemingly ignored, were not experts and they may have been ignored for what seemed valid reasons at the time, but if we are not open to people voicing their concerns which should be looked at and found to be right or wrong, we may be guilty of one of the things we need to learn from this. One thing seems to be an issue to me is that many fire safety experts may not be as expert as they should be. Not including you in that, I mean at the very top on the very technical side of modelling of how fires spread - the people who seem to have missed clues not just in this country but abroad from previous incidents. Simply because we can all agree that this building should not have gone up as fast as it did and there inevitably has to be failings of some kind behind it.
Our asset management teams are checking everything today. We've been given a crib sheet for FAQs. Luckily all our FRAs are up to date and all the dry risers etc have up to date valid inspections. Still been a bit fraught though with some residents.
Our asset management teams are checking everything today. We've been given a crib sheet for FAQs. Luckily all our FRAs are up to date and all the dry risers etc have up to date valid inspections. Still been a bit fraught though with some residents.
Same here. Some residents refusing to remove stuff from the stairs.
I'm sure all experts are agreed there has been a massive failure in the fire protection at Grenfell - all concerned parties need to be involved in improving our fire regulations.
This isn't simply a matter of cost it's also about neglect from Governments both Labour and Conservative in not being proactive enough in reviewing regulations to make them fit for purpose. Building techniques change and if the regulations are not kept up to date then there will be problems.
We need some leadership not the constant passing the buck and blame game that we are witnessing.
How can we make things better?
How about putting fire training and first aid on the school curriculum, so children grow up knowing the hazards?
I am the CEO of a charity that amongst other things provides social housing. One site is a ten story tower block . We have two fire escapes , a fire alarm system with pre-alarm and full alarm settings which tells us the room or zone of the alarm. We do regular ( though not frequent) full unplanned evacuations, weekly alarm tests , regular smoke and heat alarm tests , and have trained fire marshals. We have written out to tenants encouraging them to come forward with fears of concerns. The fire service attend regularly and independently check us out and the dry riser is outside my office and I often see this being tested by the fire service.
Like others we are checking FRA and our compliance and quality lead and team are interdependently verifying anything and everything. We too are about to purchase new cladding for our tower. Cost likely to be 1.8 million or so for a ten story tower.
I cannot comprehend the trauma and suffering of those involved, and resolve to pro-actively and rigorously ensure strong risk management culture and more importantly a culture where the people we serve are at the center of our work.
Our asset management teams are checking everything today. We've been given a crib sheet for FAQs. Luckily all our FRAs are up to date and all the dry risers etc have up to date valid inspections. Still been a bit fraught though with some residents.
Same here. Some residents refusing to remove stuff from the stairs.
It's amazing that they do that this week isn't it. I have the same so we're now going to use injunctions against repeat offenders. And then notices, probably NOSPS.
Our asset management teams are checking everything today. We've been given a crib sheet for FAQs. Luckily all our FRAs are up to date and all the dry risers etc have up to date valid inspections. Still been a bit fraught though with some residents.
Same here. Some residents refusing to remove stuff from the stairs.
It's amazing that they do that this week isn't it. I have the same so we're now going to use injunctions against repeat offenders. And then notices, probably NOSPS.
Our asset management teams are checking everything today. We've been given a crib sheet for FAQs. Luckily all our FRAs are up to date and all the dry risers etc have up to date valid inspections. Still been a bit fraught though with some residents.
Same here. Some residents refusing to remove stuff from the stairs.
It's amazing that they do that this week isn't it. I have the same so we're now going to use injunctions against repeat offenders. And then notices, probably NOSPS.
Cant you just chuck it down the rubbish chute?
Fraid not. I've been told this morning `but you can get round it' and `where am I sposed to put it'.
I once had the role as fire safety officer for a private school that had about 80 boarders.
I had a constant battle with the boarding staff to take combustables and tripping hazards out of the protected escape routes. I was constantly removing wedges from fire doors.
My boss also fought me on just about every turn, lied to the SMT and kept me away from the rare upgrades that were done.
The whole focus of their safeguarding was on stopping kiddy fiddlers rather than protecting lives. A balance is always needed.
I did make inroads but walked away. I took the role very seriously, I wonder what those staff are thinking of their actions now?
For the sake of their charges, I trust that they have had a rethink along with other like minded people in authority.
Comments
"Sadiq Khan has said he believes the threat of terror attacks are “part and parcel of living in a big city” and encouraged Londoners to be vigilant to combat dangers.
The Mayor of London revealed he had a “sleepless night” after the recent bombing in New York, and said major cities around the world “have got to be prepared for these sorts of things” to happen when people least expect them.
“That means being vigilant, having a police force that is in touch with communities, it means the security services being ready, but it also means exchanging ideas and best practice”, Mr Khan told the Evening Standard shortly before a meeting with New York mayor Bill de Blasio.
Key word is "Threat" but that has been spun as Khan saying "Attacks" are part and parcel of living in a big city" with the implication that he thinks that is OK when clearly he isn't saying that.
And is there not a potential danger if we are experts and know more that we might ignore concerns of people who are not qualified, but do live in the building?
On breakfast TV this morning - there was the safety expert who worked on the Shard - he said sprinklers should have been fitted and should now be fitted. A few may have seen it. Should we ignore what he has said? Can you see it is quite confusing when diffeerent experts tell us different things.
He's struggling to be Mayoral when what I'm sure he wants to do is break down in tears like the rest of us. Maybe cut him some slack, as well as May and all the politicians. The cause and the blame, if there is any, will come in due course. The important thing now is to support the victims with whatever they need and quickly identify why the fire spread so quickly so that immediate remedial action can be taken - whatever the cost.
@Addicted has given us a real insight into the realities of tower block management. I'm sure that in the conventional sense Grenfell House met those requirements.
The real issue is accepting the fact that the materials used or perhaps way they were installed (the cladding) have actually made what might and should have been a contained fire much worse to the point where it is now a national disaster.
No materials should have the ability to act as they did. We have a right to expect that building regulations protect us from designs and materials which are not completely safe. This is where there has been a massive failure.
You cannot buy a sofa that is not fully fire retardant. It will smoulder for a long time before it ignites. We are rightly protected. I just don't understand how any material, design or installation in 2017 in building construction can actually have caused this disaster.
We have the right to demand that this is remedied as soon as the details of what is required are known. Regardless of cost.
Ask yourself the question : if you lived in a tower block that has undergone this type of renovation would you feel safe and happy to carry on living there ?
This isn't simply a matter of cost it's also about neglect from Governments both Labour and Conservative in not being proactive enough in reviewing regulations to make them fit for purpose. Building techniques change and if the regulations are not kept up to date then there will be problems.
We need some leadership not the constant passing the buck and blame game that we are witnessing.
How can we make things better?
The comments of the firemen on here, along with those of Addickted are welcome 'relief' if there can be such a thing in the light of such an awful tragedy.
It's a free country isn't it?
Funding is not an issue. Who do you think pays for the servicing and maintenance of the fire safety equipment at blocks like this? It's the residents through their service charge.
I'm sure the residents who voiced concerns to meetings on 19 occasions and were seemingly ignored, were not experts and they may have been ignored for what seemed valid reasons at the time, but if we are not open to people voicing their concerns which should be looked at and found to be right or wrong, we may be guilty of one of the things we need to learn from this. One thing seems to be an issue to me is that many fire safety experts may not be as expert as they should be. Not including you in that, I mean at the very top on the very technical side of modelling of how fires spread - the people who seem to have missed clues not just in this country but abroad from previous incidents. Simply because we can all agree that this building should not have gone up as fast as it did and there inevitably has to be failings of some kind behind it.
Still been a bit fraught though with some residents.
Like others we are checking FRA and our compliance and quality lead and team are interdependently verifying anything and everything. We too are about to purchase new cladding for our tower. Cost likely to be 1.8 million or so for a ten story tower.
I cannot comprehend the trauma and suffering of those involved, and resolve to pro-actively and rigorously ensure strong risk management culture and more importantly a culture where the people we serve are at the center of our work.
I had a constant battle with the boarding staff to take combustables and tripping hazards out of the protected escape routes. I was constantly removing wedges from fire doors.
My boss also fought me on just about every turn, lied to the SMT and kept me away from the rare upgrades that were done.
The whole focus of their safeguarding was on stopping kiddy fiddlers rather than protecting lives. A balance is always needed.
I did make inroads but walked away. I took the role very seriously, I wonder what those staff are thinking of their actions now?
For the sake of their charges, I trust that they have had a rethink along with other like minded people in authority.