I have a query for those that may be more knowledgable in this subject. If it's the cladding, who's responsibility does this fall under? I appreciate every contract/build is probably got an individual chain of accountability/responsibility, but generally who would take responsibility for this? The manufacturer
Depends on what sort of contracts were used to appoint the contractor(s) - I would imagine a bespoke document was used to transfer the risks in the main to Rydon as main contractor - they in turn would employ the subbies for specific works, and transfer the specific risks associated with that element of the project to each subbie
It's rather complicated and insurances also come into play
To be honest it simply becomes a pass the buck exercise, until someone ends holding the financial baby - lawyers are the only winners
I read somewhere that the sub-contractor for the cladding went into administration, so Rydon may have nowhere to go in terms of money unless they can attach to the subs insurance
Of course the above is all civil court related, criminal court proceedings is totally different kettle of fish.......if criminal activity is proven (e.g. the cladding fitted was not the cladding specified etc) then individuals will be sought out
A disaster like this will see a full drains up enquiry
Watching footage on the TV last night was so awful - those people trapped up high pleading for help - imagine how terrifying that must be - well you can't can you
You can only try and that is beyond painful. The reality is surely even worse. It is good that there seems an atmosphere to put this right - the coming days need to continue in the same vane and there are things that can't wait for the outcome of the enquiry -
He has been asked by angry residents to help them get justice. He will do that in his own dilligent way - he will not look for scapegoats I can assure you. The whole point of opposition is hold the government to account and this is probably something where that statement couldn't be more true.
I don't normally comment on such matters but something today has enraged me so much ....
In a godforsaken place where the unspeakable walked hand-in-hand with the supremely heroic only hours before, TM duly came by and unbelievably true to form then departed without meeting a single local.
Where modest public servants endangered themselves and went far beyond the call of duty, the chiefest public servant of them all couldn't summon up the least bit of bravado to connect with her fellow citizens in their hour of desperation. Sheer despicable cowardice. Few of us could do what the firefighters did, but equally few of us normal folks would do what the PM did and wilfully turn their backs on such suffering. Security ? In such circumstances any "leader" even half worthy of the name would plunge regardless into the throng. Utterly abysmal and spineless performance.
I think there was a lot of anger towards her so understandable in some ways. Not sure how anybody would have gained from it. But she has to be humble and not kick this into the long grass and show remorse in her actions from now on.
I don't normally comment on such matters but something today has enraged me so much ....
In a godforsaken place where the unspeakable walked hand-in-hand with the supremely heroic only hours before, TM duly came by and unbelievably true to form then departed without meeting a single local.
Where modest public servants endangered themselves and went far beyond the call of duty, the chiefest public servant of them all couldn't summon up the least bit of bravado to connect with her fellow citizens in their hour of desperation. Sheer despicable cowardice. Few of us could do what the firefighters did, but equally few of us normal folks would do what the PM did and wilfully turn their backs on such suffering. Security ? In such circumstances any "leader" even half worthy of the name would plunge regardless into the throng. Utterly abysmal and spineless performance.
I am not surprised at all, ignoring politics, she is an appalling women. She just does not appear to have the soft skills required for public office, and lacks empathy for anyone other than herself.
I recognise that in her - to be honest. I think she probably shouldn'thave gone there today if she wasn't going to see residents as being there and leaving straight away only increases anger because it looks like she is blanking them. But like I said - it is about actions now. People are living in high rise blocks now, so this can't wait a couple of years - action is required now and somebody has to be to blame for this and that shouldn't take years to find out either.
let's face it Theresa May and the Tories have nothing in common with the people who live in this area of this Borough.......they feel more at home down around the Kings Road
Probably the richest council in the country, however not enough money to put sprinklers in or a 2nd escape staircase, but enough money to make the tower look nicer and be greener
Stuff being green - what about spending first on safety
Something has gone seriously wrong in our country - it's shameful
There should be d be a program in place to demolish these old tower blocks as Bexley have done with the Larner Road Estate. The problem being, finding homes for the families that are displaced, so councils go gone the refurbishment route. I would like to add that I spent a good deal deal of my working life in the sprinkler industry (37years) and believe you me retrofitting sprinkler systems into existing tower blocks would be a logistical nightmare with location of the water tanks and pumping equipment etc. The best way would be demolish them and rebuild to modern standards, after all they will probably be demolished in the next 25years anyway.
It would be interesting to know how long realistically buildings are expected to last. The five storey LCC mansion blocks built in the 1930s are still going strong and you see plenty across London. Some tower blocks have barely lasted thirty years before demolition - this seems unacceptable.
Buildings should be able to be adapted assuming they were properly built and and adequately designed - there are tower blocks all over the world and they're not all failing so quickly.
There are problems with some buildings from the 50's, 60's and 70's due to the use of High Alumina Cement, which was prone to losing strength in certain situations leading to collapse in the worst cases
When we are lending against certain types of buildings built in those eras (multi storey car parks are a good example) we require complete satisfaction that HAC wasn't used
This partly explains why blocks from the 30's still remain, but many from more recent times don't
I don't normally comment on such matters but something today has enraged me so much ....
In a godforsaken place where the unspeakable walked hand-in-hand with the supremely heroic only hours before, TM duly came by and unbelievably true to form then departed without meeting a single local.
Where modest public servants endangered themselves and went far beyond the call of duty, the chiefest public servant of them all couldn't summon up the least bit of bravado to connect with her fellow citizens in their hour of desperation. Sheer despicable cowardice. Few of us could do what the firefighters did, but equally few of us normal folks would do what the PM did and wilfully turn their backs on such suffering. Security ? In such circumstances any "leader" even half worthy of the name would plunge regardless into the throng. Utterly abysmal and spineless performance.
She is completely spineless - if there was any trouble the police would have protected her. Her PR skills are non-existent and this type of behaviour will just add to her unpopularity.
You need to be brave to lead but she can't face the public unless it is all stage managed.
They'll be the fire report pretty quick I suspect which will answer if the issue here is common elsewhere and what needs to be done.
The full inquiry will take much longer of course but key is safety right now if this issue (whatever it is that caused the fast spread etc) effects other blocks which I'm sure it will as it's unlikely this construction/refurb is isolated to that single block.
I'm all for demolishing them all, if we can't rescue above 9 floors in domestic premises then don't build any higher. But I know it's not that easy/simple.
On the sprinkler front, I understand the common area aspect but do some of these blocks that have systems have them in the actual flats themselves?
When are sprinklers goingto be installed in all high rise blocks? I am getting angrier this has not been announced yet!
Maybe they ought to complete a preliminary investigation first.
The UK has thousands of tower blocks (presumably mainly without sprinklers) and thus fires must be a daily occurrence across the country yet only in this case did it have such catastrophic consequences.
There should be d be a program in place to demolish these old tower blocks as Bexley have done with the Larner Road Estate. The problem being, finding homes for the families that are displaced, so councils go gone the refurbishment route. I would like to add that I spent a good deal deal of my working life in the sprinkler industry (37years) and believe you me retrofitting sprinkler systems into existing tower blocks would be a logistical nightmare with location of the water tanks and pumping equipment etc. The best way would be demolish them and rebuild to modern standards, after all they will probably be demolished in the next 25years anyway.
It would be interesting to know how long realistically buildings are expected to last. The five storey LCC mansion blocks built in the 1930s are still going strong and you see plenty across London. Some tower blocks have barely lasted thirty years before demolition - this seems unacceptable.
Buildings should be able to be adapted assuming they were properly built and and adequately designed - there are tower blocks all over the world and they're not all failing so quickly.
There are problems with some buildings from the 50's, 60's and 70's due to the use of High Alumina Cement, which was prone to losing strength in certain situations leading to collapse in the worst cases
When we are lending against certain types of buildings built in those eras (multi storey car parks are a good example) we require complete satisfaction that HAC wasn't used
This partly explains why blocks from the 30's still remain, but many from more recent times don't
I don't normally comment on such matters but something today has enraged me so much ....
In a godforsaken place where the unspeakable walked hand-in-hand with the supremely heroic only hours before, TM duly came by and unbelievably true to form then departed without meeting a single local.
Where modest public servants endangered themselves and went far beyond the call of duty, the chiefest public servant of them all couldn't summon up the least bit of bravado to connect with her fellow citizens in their hour of desperation. Sheer despicable cowardice. Few of us could do what the firefighters did, but equally few of us normal folks would do what the PM did and wilfully turn their backs on such suffering. Security ? In such circumstances any "leader" even half worthy of the name would plunge regardless into the throng. Utterly abysmal and spineless performance.
She is completely spineless - if there was any trouble the police would have protected her. Her PR skills are non-existent and this type of behaviour will just add to her unpopularity.
You need to be brave to lead but she can't face the public unless it is all stage managed.
HCA stopped being used in the 70's - however I stress I am not saying it's connected to this disaster, I was just trying to explain why these 60's and 70's blocks are being pulled down now, but blocks from the 30's (typically in brick e.g. the low rise ones around London Bridge) are still fit for purpose
HCA is not the only reason the blocks are being pulled down of course - one big reason is they are bloody awful social experiments that went badly wrong in terms of living in them e.g. Kidbrooke (now pulled down of course)
When are sprinklers goingto be installed in all high rise blocks? I am getting angrier this has not been announced yet!
Maybe they ought to complete a preliminary investigation first.
The UK has thousands of tower blocks (presumably mainly without sprinklers) and thus fires must be a daily occurrence across the country yet only in this case did it have such catastrophic consequences.
They have a report on their desks saying all tower blocks need sprinklers - that will do
Indeed, it's as much personal as it is political, but then again she is a career politician and not yet a week ago she found out very painfully that her timorous campaigning style was a total disaster. If you seek high office you have to govern, to lead. Politicians can manage quite lengthy careers even if they are stupid, or dull, or crooked, or (God forbid) deceitful, but unlucky is hard to survive and cowardly should be swiftly fatal.
Indeed, it's as much personal as it is political, but then again she is a career politician and not yet a week ago she found out very painfully that her timorous campaigning style was a total disaster. If you seek high office you have to govern, to lead. Politicians can manage quite lengthy careers even if they are stupid, or dull, or crooked, or (God forbid) deceitful, but unlucky is hard to survive and cowardly should be swiftly fatal.
As the saying goes 'if you take the King's shilling, you are expected to fire a gun'
Want to be the PM ? Then you have many responsibilities, incl facing and talking to people in incredibly challenging circumstances - you can't hide
She should have stuck to running through corn fields
When are sprinklers goingto be installed in all high rise blocks? I am getting angrier this has not been announced yet!
Maybe they ought to complete a preliminary investigation first.
The UK has thousands of tower blocks (presumably mainly without sprinklers) and thus fires must be a daily occurrence across the country yet only in this case did it have such catastrophic consequences.
They have a report on their desks saying all tower blocks need sprinklers - that will do
It needs a thorough cost benefit analysis like any spending.
My rough estimate of cost: 4,000 blocks x 150 flats x £1,500 per flat = £900m.
This is the same as 36,000 new police officers at £25k pa which might save many more lives (in various ways).
It's really not as straightforward as you make out.
When are sprinklers goingto be installed in all high rise blocks? I am getting angrier this has not been announced yet!
Maybe they ought to complete a preliminary investigation first.
The UK has thousands of tower blocks (presumably mainly without sprinklers) and thus fires must be a daily occurrence across the country yet only in this case did it have such catastrophic consequences.
They have a report on their desks saying all tower blocks need sprinklers - that will do
It needs a thorough cost benefit analysis like any spending.
My rough estimate of cost: 4,000 blocks x 150 flats x £1,500 per flat = £900m.
This is the same as 36,000 new police officers at £25k pa which might save many more lives (in various ways).
It's really not as straightforward as you make out.
Yes the word cost always complicates matters! People who live in high rise blocks have to be safe. The reason you have given only explains why the report has been sat on for 4 years.
When are sprinklers goingto be installed in all high rise blocks? I am getting angrier this has not been announced yet!
Maybe they ought to complete a preliminary investigation first.
The UK has thousands of tower blocks (presumably mainly without sprinklers) and thus fires must be a daily occurrence across the country yet only in this case did it have such catastrophic consequences.
They have a report on their desks saying all tower blocks need sprinklers - that will do
It needs a thorough cost benefit analysis like any spending.
My rough estimate of cost: 4,000 blocks x 150 flats x £1,500 per flat = £900m.
This is the same as 36,000 new police officers at £25k pa which might save many more lives (in various ways).
It's really not as straightforward as you make out.
Cost benefit analysis 'it's gonna cost a lot of money to prevent people being burnt to death in a council tower block' - money should not come into it for the 5th richest nation on earth
Rather see my taxes spent on that than funding the arts or subsidising roof insulation or a new railway line to the Midlands or Cross Rail etc etc etc
Listening to family members telling how they heard the phone line go quiet when talking to those who were trapped in the building, what a living nightmare. Heard one young girl sat her GCSEs yesterday after escaping from the fire, said she think she did OK, think she done brilliant just to go into school.
This is not just about austerity. This goes way beyond. For years and years "we" and by we I mean society, has had no desire or will to spend what needs to be spent on social housing in general let alone spend millions on expensive alarm and sprinkler systems. Estates are shabby and in disrepair all over the country. Basic repairs and maintenance are neglected because there is no money allocated and no one wants to spend a penny more through rates or general tax. Eventually what has happened was inevitable.
Councils have had their budgets cut and services of all sorts have suffered. Lots of the funding for council estate upgrades comes from EU grants and not UK central or local government.
We need as a society to take responsibility for what has happened and that I'm afraid is going to cost all of us. It's tragic that it's taken the loss of perhaps hundreds of people for the will and money that's needed to be found.
Even now. After the dust settles from this appalling event I'm not convinced that anything will change with the urgency required.
They are just New York's top of head figures - there will be buildings that are safer than others and some that already have sprinkler systems. The first thing you look at though is do people need them to be safe - then you find out how much it will cost! What governments do is look how much it will cost and then decide they don't need them or to ignore reports saying we need them. It was the same with Dilnot - got kicked into touch because we couldn't afford it.
Comments
It's rather complicated and insurances also come into play
To be honest it simply becomes a pass the buck exercise, until someone ends holding the financial baby - lawyers are the only winners
I read somewhere that the sub-contractor for the cladding went into administration, so Rydon may have nowhere to go in terms of money unless they can attach to the subs insurance
Of course the above is all civil court related, criminal court proceedings is totally different kettle of fish.......if criminal activity is proven (e.g. the cladding fitted was not the cladding specified etc) then individuals will be sought out
A disaster like this will see a full drains up enquiry
Watching footage on the TV last night was so awful - those people trapped up high pleading for help - imagine how terrifying that must be - well you can't can you
RIP
I don't normally comment on such matters but something today has enraged me so much ....
In a godforsaken place where the unspeakable walked hand-in-hand with the supremely heroic only hours before, TM duly came by and unbelievably true to form then departed without meeting a single local.
Where modest public servants endangered themselves and went far beyond the call of duty, the chiefest public servant of them all couldn't summon up the least bit of bravado to connect with her fellow citizens in their hour of desperation. Sheer despicable cowardice. Few of us could do what the firefighters did, but equally few of us normal folks would do what the PM did and wilfully turn their backs on such suffering. Security ? In such circumstances any "leader" even half worthy of the name would plunge regardless into the throng. Utterly abysmal and spineless performance.
Probably the richest council in the country, however not enough money to put sprinklers in or a 2nd escape staircase, but enough money to make the tower look nicer and be greener
Stuff being green - what about spending first on safety
Something has gone seriously wrong in our country - it's shameful
You need to be brave to lead but she can't face the public unless it is all stage managed.
The full inquiry will take much longer of course but key is safety right now if this issue (whatever it is that caused the fast spread etc) effects other blocks which I'm sure it will as it's unlikely this construction/refurb is isolated to that single block.
I'm all for demolishing them all, if we can't rescue above 9 floors in domestic premises then don't build any higher. But I know it's not that easy/simple.
On the sprinkler front, I understand the common area aspect but do some of these blocks that have systems have them in the actual flats themselves?
The UK has thousands of tower blocks (presumably mainly without sprinklers) and thus fires must be a daily occurrence across the country yet only in this case did it have such catastrophic consequences.
what caused this ?
design ?
austerity?
de regulation ?
two of the above sit with the Government ,dosnt matter if its a past administration.
HCA is not the only reason the blocks are being pulled down of course - one big reason is they are bloody awful social experiments that went badly wrong in terms of living in them e.g. Kidbrooke (now pulled down of course)
Indeed, it's as much personal as it is political, but then again she is a career politician and not yet a week ago she found out very painfully that her timorous campaigning style was a total disaster. If you seek high office you have to govern, to lead. Politicians can manage quite lengthy careers even if they are stupid, or dull, or crooked, or (God forbid) deceitful, but unlucky is hard to survive and cowardly should be swiftly fatal.
Want to be the PM ? Then you have many responsibilities, incl facing and talking to people in incredibly challenging circumstances - you can't hide
She should have stuck to running through corn fields
My rough estimate of cost: 4,000 blocks x 150 flats x £1,500 per flat = £900m.
This is the same as 36,000 new police officers at £25k pa which might save many more lives (in various ways).
It's really not as straightforward as you make out.
Rather see my taxes spent on that than funding the arts or subsidising roof insulation or a new railway line to the Midlands or Cross Rail etc etc etc
Councils have had their budgets cut and services of all sorts have suffered. Lots of the funding for council estate upgrades comes from EU grants and not UK central or local government.
We need as a society to take responsibility for what has happened and that I'm afraid is going to cost all of us. It's tragic that it's taken the loss of perhaps hundreds of people for the will and money that's needed to be found.
Even now. After the dust settles from this appalling event I'm not convinced that anything will change with the urgency required.