Attention: Please take a moment to consider our terms and conditions before posting.
Options

How do the Tories need to change?

12021232526116

Comments

  • Options
    edited October 2017
    Rob7Lee said:

    I wouldn't discount Boris although I don't personally think he'd make a good PM. I get you point on priministerial but as you say Trump and of course Corbyn hardly fit that bill (IMHO) but have enjoyed or are enjoying success.

    But that is the issue, Corbyn has shocked commentators by how Prime Ministerial he has become - from a point where he looked anything but. I know you seem to have a blind spot to that fact. Boris just continues to be Boris, thinking he is made of Teflon. He has got way with so many gaffs and offensive remarks, he thinks he is immune. But he isn't - especially with the scrutiny he will be under as a potential leader.

    Boris was clearly thinking he had done the business with his speech and took his eye of teh ball. The remarks he made were offensive and like I said - If May had made them she would be resigning today. Rees - Mogg believes that a woman who has been gang raped shouldn't be able to have an abortion if she falls pregnant and would alienate a significant number of gay voters. The Tories really do have to stick with May and try to find something better in the next year or so - and that in essence probably explains why she is still Prime Minsiter.

    Rees-Mogg seems to accept he won't be the next party leader, but a lot of tories would sleep more comfortably (not all of them I know) if Johnson is out of the running.
  • Options
    Someone on the Telly the other day said Rees Mogg's real ambition is to be Speaker.
  • Options
    cafcfan said:

    The snag (and it's a big one) for Boris as potential leader is that the party members only get to vote on a choice of two. If there are more candidates, it's the MPs only that get to vote to whittle down numbers to the final two. Boris is generally hated by a significant number of Tory MPs. His chances of getting to the last two are tiny. (Still stranger things have happened.)
    A snag for The Conservatives is that a leadership contestant has to be nominated by two MPs. They might have to re-write this rule the way things are going. Will they have that many MPs after the next election?

    A lot of MPs might dislike him but they know he has a significant media profile. The main concern of politicians is to get elected and with him at the helm they might feel they have a chance.

    I feel Boris would be an awful PM as he lacks nearly all the required qualities but his posh buffoon act seems to do the trick at elections.
  • Options

    cafcfan said:

    The snag (and it's a big one) for Boris as potential leader is that the party members only get to vote on a choice of two. If there are more candidates, it's the MPs only that get to vote to whittle down numbers to the final two. Boris is generally hated by a significant number of Tory MPs. His chances of getting to the last two are tiny. (Still stranger things have happened.)
    A snag for The Conservatives is that a leadership contestant has to be nominated by two MPs. They might have to re-write this rule the way things are going. Will they have that many MPs after the next election?

    A lot of MPs might dislike him but they know he has a significant media profile. The main concern of politicians is to get elected and with him at the helm they might feel they have a chance.

    I feel Boris would be an awful PM as he lacks nearly all the required qualities but his posh buffoon act seems to do the trick at elections.
    Well, it does. But why is that? In terms of the buffoonery being an act, Ian Hislop has this to say: people always ask me the same question, they say, 'Is Boris a very very clever man pretending to be an idiot?' And I always say, 'No.'
  • Options

    Rob7Lee said:

    I wouldn't discount Boris although I don't personally think he'd make a good PM. I get you point on priministerial but as you say Trump and of course Corbyn hardly fit that bill (IMHO) but have enjoyed or are enjoying success.

    But that is the issue, Corbyn has shocked commentators by how Prime Ministerial he has become - from a point where he looked anything but. I know you seem to have a blind spot to that fact. Boris just continues to be Boris, thinking he is made of Teflon. He has got way with so many gaffs and offensive remarks, he thinks he is immune. But he isn't - especially with the scrutiny he will be under as a potential leader.

    Boris was clearly thinking he had done the business with his speech and took his eye of teh ball. The remarks he made were offensive and like I said - If May had made them she would be resigning today. Rees - Mogg believes that a woman who has been gang raped shouldn't be able to have an abortion if she falls pregnant and would alienate a significant number of gay voters. The Tories really do have to stick with May and try to find something better in the next year or so - and that in essence probably explains why she is still Prime Minsiter.

    Rees-Mogg seems to accept he won't be the next party leader, but a lot of tories would sleep more comfortably (not all of them I know) if Johnson is out of the running.
    I did say in regard to Corbyn IMHO :confounded: I know you think he's Prime ministerial and I'm sure many others do to, but that's just your opinion not fact as you state.

    IMHO I don't think Boris is either (let alone that dipstick Rees Mogg) but there might be some who think he is.

    I don't personally believe there'll be a leadership challenge for a while yet within the Tories. They'll concentrate for now on enjoying being in Government for the next 5 years and attempting to make further headway with the electorate for the next election whenever that may be (I think it'll be earlier than 5 years). But I'd be surprised if May is in post still in 5 years time and/or the next election but stranger things have happened........
  • Options
    cafcfan said:

    cafcfan said:

    The snag (and it's a big one) for Boris as potential leader is that the party members only get to vote on a choice of two. If there are more candidates, it's the MPs only that get to vote to whittle down numbers to the final two. Boris is generally hated by a significant number of Tory MPs. His chances of getting to the last two are tiny. (Still stranger things have happened.)
    A snag for The Conservatives is that a leadership contestant has to be nominated by two MPs. They might have to re-write this rule the way things are going. Will they have that many MPs after the next election?

    A lot of MPs might dislike him but they know he has a significant media profile. The main concern of politicians is to get elected and with him at the helm they might feel they have a chance.

    I feel Boris would be an awful PM as he lacks nearly all the required qualities but his posh buffoon act seems to do the trick at elections.
    Well, it does. But why is that? In terms of the buffoonery being an act, Ian Hislop has this to say: people always ask me the same question, they say, 'Is Boris a very very clever man pretending to be an idiot?' And I always say, 'No.'
    Maybe he's just Trump with a posh accent. He comes across to me as a self-serving nasty piece of work but the public seem to lap him up.

    It's possible a veneer of education makes him appear more intelligent than he is.
  • Options
    I think the election can happen at any time within the next two years - the government probably don't want to have one when Brexit has had a chance to really kick in, and kick us.
  • Options
    Rob7Lee said:

    Rob7Lee said:

    I wouldn't discount Boris although I don't personally think he'd make a good PM. I get you point on priministerial but as you say Trump and of course Corbyn hardly fit that bill (IMHO) but have enjoyed or are enjoying success.

    But that is the issue, Corbyn has shocked commentators by how Prime Ministerial he has become - from a point where he looked anything but. I know you seem to have a blind spot to that fact. Boris just continues to be Boris, thinking he is made of Teflon. He has got way with so many gaffs and offensive remarks, he thinks he is immune. But he isn't - especially with the scrutiny he will be under as a potential leader.

    Boris was clearly thinking he had done the business with his speech and took his eye of teh ball. The remarks he made were offensive and like I said - If May had made them she would be resigning today. Rees - Mogg believes that a woman who has been gang raped shouldn't be able to have an abortion if she falls pregnant and would alienate a significant number of gay voters. The Tories really do have to stick with May and try to find something better in the next year or so - and that in essence probably explains why she is still Prime Minsiter.

    Rees-Mogg seems to accept he won't be the next party leader, but a lot of tories would sleep more comfortably (not all of them I know) if Johnson is out of the running.
    I did say in regard to Corbyn IMHO :confounded: I know you think he's Prime ministerial and I'm sure many others do to, but that's just your opinion not fact as you state.

    IMHO I don't think Boris is either (let alone that dipstick Rees Mogg) but there might be some who think he is.

    I don't personally believe there'll be a leadership challenge for a while yet within the Tories. They'll concentrate for now on enjoying being in Government for the next 5 years and attempting to make further headway with the electorate for the next election whenever that may be (I think it'll be earlier than 5 years). But I'd be surprised if May is in post still in 5 years time and/or the next election but stranger things have happened........
    They don't look like they are having are having much fun. :smile:

    Would you consider May to be Prime ministerial or the best option out of a bad bunch for the moment?

    I can not rectify how people are so ambivalent to having a lame duck leader at such a cricital juncture in our country's fututre. We are being dirven off a cliff by someone with no plan and no authority. I haven't read anything backing her, just page after page of thread after thread lammenting the alternatives, hardly inspiring is it? Everyone knows she is only there because they Tory party will tear itself and the country apart if she were to leave.

    Saying that, I have been impressed by the way they have tried to spin everything in the last week. From May proclaiming to have changed the tone in the brexit debate by publicly succeding to the EU's demands before the EU parliment voted against starting trade talks to the self-serving Boris simply being a dissenting adivsor, which is a good thing. Maybe you are right, she might just manage to cling on to power for a few years, by which point the conservatives may have some idea of the direction their party. At the moment they just seem Corbyn-lite.

    The irony of Boris telling everyone to keep their eye on the prize when he only cares about his own future rather than that of the country is galling. But as @cafcfan said, it is highly doubtful that he would even make the members vote if the Tories trust them to have one this time.

  • Options
    Apparently May is going to order Tories to "shape up" in her speech.

    She should be giving her speech to a mirror.
  • Options
    edited October 2017
    Boris basically has one more shot at becoming Tory leader / Prime minister. He was stabbed in the back by that diamond geezer Gove but against all the odds ended up as Foriegn Secretary and inside the tent. Unfortunately for Teresa May, Boris is so distracted or mischievous that whilst endeavouring to piss out of the tent he manages to splash and spray it about inside.

    Whenever the grandees of the 1922 committee decide enough is enough for May. Boris needs to have positioned himself in such a way as to have enough parliamentary support as well as still remaining the grass roots darling.

    I think he can do it. Ultimately the conservative parliamentarians will follow whoever they think offers the best shot of them retaining their seat. If that Boris then he will find support and lots of it.

    Rees-Mogg isn't even worth considering as a possible alternative. Which begs the question if not Boris, whom ?

    Hammond is too opposed to a hard Brexit for many Tories. Grayling is a toad which leaves Amber Rudd.

    If Boris loses out he is effectively finished as an MP. He's not going to hang around the back benches very long.



  • Sponsored links:


  • Options
    seth plum said:

    Someone on the Telly the other day said Rees Mogg's real ambition is to be Speaker.

    I'd say that would be a perfect role for him.
  • Options
    P45 incident during May's speech just now.
  • Options
    Ha ha ha. Brilliant, was that Lee Nelson? It doesn't matter what she says now.
  • Options
    It was going all right for Theresa May too.
    Orderly speech and then that happens. She is onto dissing Corbyn next.
    To her credit she carries on regardless.
  • Options

    Boris basically has one more shot at becoming Tory leader / Prime minister. He was stabbed in the back by that diamond geezer Gove but against all the odds ended up as Foriegn Secretary and inside the tent. Unfortunately for Teresa May, Boris is so distracted or mischievous that whilst endeavouring to piss out of the tent he manages to splash and spray it about inside.

    Whenever the grandees of the 1922 committee decide enough is enough for May. Boris needs to have positioned himself in such a way as to have enough parliamentary support as well as still remaining the grass roots darling.

    I think he can do it. Ultimately the conservative parliamentarians will follow whoever they think offers the best shot of them retaining their seat. If that Boris then he will find support and lots of it.

    Rees-Mogg isn't even worth considering as a possible alternative. Which begs the question if not Boris, whom ?

    Hammond is too opposed to a hard Brexit for many Tories. Grayling is a toad which leaves Amber Rudd.

    If Boris loses out he is effectively finished as an MP. He's not going to hang around the back benches very long.



    Amber Rudd is likely to lose her seat at the next election. That is holding her ambition back. Boris does have a lot of support as well as a lot of enemies and the Tories probably think they are in a position where they have to roll the dice - as that is what Boris as leader would be. I think realistically, they have one person at this time and only one, who would frighten Labour and that is Ruth Davidson. Whether she would guarantee a win, I can't say but she has the gravity about her that a leader needs. Of course the economy is not going to improve in the next few years so that is going to work against them.

  • Options
    Polite applause but so many glum faces in the auditorium.

    Coughing fit isn't helping.
  • Options
    Oh dear.
    In terms of giving a speech all that can go wrong is going wrong.
    Classic TV.
    I feel sorry for her but this is car crash stuff.
  • Sponsored links:


  • Options
    seth plum said:

    Oh dear.
    In terms of giving a speech all that can go wrong is going wrong.
    Classic TV.
    I feel sorry for her but this is car crash stuff.

    That cough really is awful...
  • Options
    She has to see this out but my god the cough has got her big time at the absolute worst time.
  • Options
    seth plum said:

    She has to see this out but my god the cough has got her big time at the absolute worst time.

    Heard her on LBC yesterday, she was clearly suffering from a bad cold.

    She's probably one of the most stressed people on earth. Can't do her immune system much good.
  • Options
    edited October 2017

    Boris basically has one more shot at becoming Tory leader / Prime minister. He was stabbed in the back by that diamond geezer Gove but against all the odds ended up as Foriegn Secretary and inside the tent. Unfortunately for Teresa May, Boris is so distracted or mischievous that whilst endeavouring to piss out of the tent he manages to splash and spray it about inside.

    Whenever the grandees of the 1922 committee decide enough is enough for May. Boris needs to have positioned himself in such a way as to have enough parliamentary support as well as still remaining the grass roots darling.

    I think he can do it. Ultimately the conservative parliamentarians will follow whoever they think offers the best shot of them retaining their seat. If that Boris then he will find support and lots of it.

    Rees-Mogg isn't even worth considering as a possible alternative. Which begs the question if not Boris, whom ?

    Hammond is too opposed to a hard Brexit for many Tories. Grayling is a toad which leaves Amber Rudd.

    If Boris loses out he is effectively finished as an MP. He's not going to hang around the back benches very long.



    Amber Rudd is likely to lose her seat at the next election. That is holding her ambition back. Boris does have a lot of support as well as a lot of enemies and the Tories probably think they are in a position where they have to roll the dice - as that is what Boris as leader would be. I think realistically, they have one person at this time and only one, who would frighten Labour and that is Ruth Davidson. Whether she would guarantee a win, I can't say but she has the gravity about her that a leader needs. Of course the economy is not going to improve in the next few years so that is going to work against them.

    Davidson would need to be elected to Westminster first and that would be tricky in itself. I think @Rob7Lee is right about it being a while and it will probably be a moderniser from the fringes of the party like Cameron. I am continually impressed by Heidi Allen as well as Ruth Davidson, in a couple of years she may well have the clout and profile to be such a candidate.
  • Options
    Less iron lady

    More ironing lady.
  • Options

    Rob7Lee said:

    Rob7Lee said:

    I wouldn't discount Boris although I don't personally think he'd make a good PM. I get you point on priministerial but as you say Trump and of course Corbyn hardly fit that bill (IMHO) but have enjoyed or are enjoying success.

    But that is the issue, Corbyn has shocked commentators by how Prime Ministerial he has become - from a point where he looked anything but. I know you seem to have a blind spot to that fact. Boris just continues to be Boris, thinking he is made of Teflon. He has got way with so many gaffs and offensive remarks, he thinks he is immune. But he isn't - especially with the scrutiny he will be under as a potential leader.

    Boris was clearly thinking he had done the business with his speech and took his eye of teh ball. The remarks he made were offensive and like I said - If May had made them she would be resigning today. Rees - Mogg believes that a woman who has been gang raped shouldn't be able to have an abortion if she falls pregnant and would alienate a significant number of gay voters. The Tories really do have to stick with May and try to find something better in the next year or so - and that in essence probably explains why she is still Prime Minsiter.

    Rees-Mogg seems to accept he won't be the next party leader, but a lot of tories would sleep more comfortably (not all of them I know) if Johnson is out of the running.
    I did say in regard to Corbyn IMHO :confounded: I know you think he's Prime ministerial and I'm sure many others do to, but that's just your opinion not fact as you state.

    IMHO I don't think Boris is either (let alone that dipstick Rees Mogg) but there might be some who think he is.

    I don't personally believe there'll be a leadership challenge for a while yet within the Tories. They'll concentrate for now on enjoying being in Government for the next 5 years and attempting to make further headway with the electorate for the next election whenever that may be (I think it'll be earlier than 5 years). But I'd be surprised if May is in post still in 5 years time and/or the next election but stranger things have happened........
    They don't look like they are having are having much fun. :smile:

    Would you consider May to be Prime ministerial or the best option out of a bad bunch for the moment?

    I can not rectify how people are so ambivalent to having a lame duck leader at such a cricital juncture in our country's fututre. We are being dirven off a cliff by someone with no plan and no authority. I haven't read anything backing her, just page after page of thread after thread lammenting the alternatives, hardly inspiring is it? Everyone knows she is only there because they Tory party will tear itself and the country apart if she were to leave.

    Saying that, I have been impressed by the way they have tried to spin everything in the last week. From May proclaiming to have changed the tone in the brexit debate by publicly succeding to the EU's demands before the EU parliment voted against starting trade talks to the self-serving Boris simply being a dissenting adivsor, which is a good thing. Maybe you are right, she might just manage to cling on to power for a few years, by which point the conservatives may have some idea of the direction their party. At the moment they just seem Corbyn-lite.

    The irony of Boris telling everyone to keep their eye on the prize when he only cares about his own future rather than that of the country is galling. But as @cafcfan said, it is highly doubtful that he would even make the members vote if the Tories trust them to have one this time.

    By enjoyment I meant they are enjoying still being in power post general election rather than being in opposition to Labour. Fun I'm sure it is not!

    May has shown us she's not a great leader so in that respect no, I don't see her as great prime ministerial. But I don't see anyone waiting in the wings who is vastly superior. But I don't know the ins and outs of every politician in any party so there may be others. If there was someone who was truly prime ministerial then I think she'd have gone by now. Hence why I'm not convinced she's going anytime soon.

    I don't think it's a case of being ambivalent but what can one do about it? An election was held and the results came in. What happens over the next 5 years (or until the next election) is in the hands of those elected to serve. Corbyn's popularity will surely mean the conservatives bend a little more to the left (well more to the centre anyway), they'll try to keep their existent vote and make an inroad even if small to those who voted Labour.

    Judging by Corbyn's twitter feed/responses to his posts I'm not so sure he's as popular with the electorate as he was at the time of the general election, but time will tell, I'm not sure there is much else he can offer to win over those who didn't vote for him last time, the conservatives can (whether they will or will enough is another matter).

    I always come back to, IMHO, we have quite a poor selection of MP's across the parties from what I can see (in respect of running a country, not necessarily for dealing with local issues in their constituencies). Clive Efford my local MP is very good locally as I'm sure many MP's are, but I'm not sure he'd make a great prime minister or front bencher.

    The public as a whole don't elect party leaders, we only get a choice between them (or between parties) each general election. I don't think ever one has jumped out of the page at me come election time. Normally it's more a case of 'jeez, what a choice that is'!
  • Options
    Christ on a bike. She really is completely without any charisma.
  • Options
    The coughing fit can happen to anybody, but as a listener you are on edge worried by the next attack, and miss the content. It becomes a lot about will the speech be completed.
    The only 'solution' is in preparation. They probably tried because Theresa May was late starting and the honey and lemon or whatever was just about holding out, but the P45 incident seemed to undo everything for a long while.
    On a purely technical level it is impressive that Theresa May has soldiered on but (and this would have meant some quick thinking by somebody) an actual break to recover from the coughs while music played or a video would have been better.
    I suspect others preparing for stage manager speeches in the future should plan for something like this happening again.

    I am not in favour of her politics but give Theresa May big credit for carrying on today.
  • Options
    seth plum said:

    P45 incident during May's speech just now.

    The same bloke who done Katrien's resignation at Company's House?
  • Options

    seth plum said:

    P45 incident during May's speech just now.

    The same bloke who done Katrien's resignation at Company's House?
    He didn't look like Frank Bruno to me.
This discussion has been closed.

Roland Out Forever!