Attention: Please take a moment to consider our terms and conditions before posting.
Options

The General Election - June 8th 2017

1305306308310311320

Comments

  • Options
    Isn't respectfully regret the phrase used at the start of an amendment?

    After the Queens Speech in 2013 Eurosceptic Tory backbenchers trying to force the EU referendum tried to add “this House respectfully regrets that an EU Referendum Bill was not included in the Gracious Speech” .

    I'm not really following cafcfan's point of view.
  • Options

    Are Labour allowed to state figures on the amendment?

    Fair point. Anyone know the answer?
    I wouldn't assume they couldn't as the majority of the UK voted for the Tory and DUP (lolz) manifesto and not theirs'.
  • Options

    Rob7Lee said:

    They are all as bad as each other,

    Why did the amendment have to mention Grenfell and recent terror attacks. This vote was all about Labour trying to get one up on Tory's and the Tory's not letting Labour get one up on them. Lose Lose for the country and politics in general.

    The Tory's downfall (on this subject, there are many others to come no doubt) will be when the independent report comes out with it's recommendations. My understanding is despite the pay freeze the report will recommend a level regardless. If the Tory's don't take heed of that then they are even bigger fools than I think right now.

    As i've said previously, 'public sector' is all well and good, but that makes up around 17% of the working population of this country. If any party was really for making the lives of those less fortunate/lower paid (or however you wish to describe it) better then they'd be looking at doing something for all of them, not try to score political points or carry favour with the public.

    I've no doubt a lot of the public sector deserve to earn more, but so do many, probably more (due to the 83/17% split), in the private sector, what about them? 'For the many not the few' yer right.

    I've never been so engaged in politics but also never been so saddened as to what a complete joke they all are. The quicker we get rid of both May & Corbyn the better.

    Chop chop @bobmunro with @cobbles running your campaign you've my vote, i'll even register in your constituency so that I can vote for you even if I have to buy a flat there (we can rent it to @cabbles sorry cobbles, to run the campaign from).

    Of course including reference to our emergency services in the amendment was political point scoring and it served its purpose. There was zero chance of the amendment going through, everyone knew that. It was to drive home the point that these are the sorts of public sector workers who have been subject to the ideologically driven cuts to pay and conditions.

    Most of the public, frankly, don't give a monkey's if a social worker or a EHO or a planning inspector or a teacher or a carer or a refuse collector effectively take a pay cut year after year for 15 years (because that's what we are talking about after all). And that's because we in the UK utterly undervalue our public services on the whole and if we don't use them then we're not bothered if they get treated poorly by our government.

    But when you start pointing out that this deliberate attack on public sector pay also impacts on nurses, ambulance staff, firefighters and the police then the message starts to get through. Look at the police officer interviewed yesterday. He'll quite rightly get all the plaudits and awards he deserves but the amazing bravery and selflessness he and his colleagues demonstrated isn't valued enough by this shower of a government to give them a decent pay award

    The public are starting to see that at long last and I think that's what we are seeing in the latest social attitudes survey that came out.

    As pointed out, Labour presented other measures to address the stagnent pay within the private sector but it shouldn't be a case of either/or anyway.
    Bournemouth, do you work in the public sector by any chance?
    I'm getting a bit fed up being told by others earning 6 figure salaries at how the tax situation is somehow compensating for the lack of anything approaching an adequate pay award.

    You would rather then have had an 'adequate pay award' but be worse off than you are?

    Is lowering taxes for the lower earners not compensating then (both public & private employee's)? is it not another way of increasing the money in peoples pockets?

    It may we'll be the case that overall the pay rises together with the lower taxation hasn't gone far enough but you can't only look at one IMHO as suits. The public sector effects less than 1 in 5, let's help everyone public & private accordingly and not fall for the political games as to what sounds fashionable.

    There is a reason governments at times like these lower taxes at the lower end (either rate or personal allowance) as it helps all of the lower paid workers, not just one particular section of society such as the public sector that they can control the salaries of.

    On the flip side they will increase taxation on the higher earners to filter the money down to fill back in the gap created by lessening the tax burden of the lower earners, which the Government have continued to do since 2010.

    But although it may not be headline grabbing like 'end austerity' 'living wage' and 'Pay freeze' it's equally if not more of an efficient way to achieve the same goal.
  • Options
    I think you only need to look at the mess the Tories have made of things over the last few years. Apart from Austerity being a ridiculous theory that doesn't work, the general incompetence with referendums and elections. They are a laughing stock and if you still support them because you are frightened Labour will tax you a bit more it is nothing short of ridiculous. Have you not been watching icompetence repeated over and over again? How much before it starts to register?
  • Options

    I think you only need to look at the mess the Tories have made of things over the last few years. Apart from Austerity being a ridiculous theory that doesn't work, the general incompetence with referendums and elections. They are a laughing stock and if you still support them because you are frightened Labour will tax you a bit more it is nothing short of ridiculous. Have you not been watching icompetence repeated over and over again? How much before it starts to register?

    I don't know how many times I've said it, there is no Party I like in this country (although I'm erring green but that will effect what I drive :wink: ), they are all useless.

    As for tax, please do read back on my post on the matter, my overriding issue with labours taxation plans is they wouldn't raise anywhere near what they believed. Did you ever see me posting about the tax rises 2010-2017 and moaning? Did you read my posts explaining how if labour got in I wouldn't actually be paying anymore tax? Clearly not although I thought you replied to most of them :smiley:

    As for when will it register, I look at what's in front of me and decide, this time around it was 'who's the least worse' and out of the main two I went Blue. TBH had the greens have stood in my area rather than stand down to make way for Labour I would have considered them. I'm not wedded to any one party unlike some who openly state they will blindly follow an imbecile over hot coals no matter what....... if you go past a starbucks on your way to work tomorrow do pop in and have a sniff......
  • Options
    edited June 2017
    Yes, but you can say it but you are still going to vote for the biggest bunch of incompetents imaginable. If you are a genuine floating voter, what do they have to do to lose your vote?
  • Options
    ok - fair enough :) He is a Brexiter by heart but a pragmatic remainer which probably explains no 1. Of course his reason for being a Brexiter in spirit are totally different from Farage's. I can see how he would have thought he wasn't the best person defending the EU.

    The centre representation has been lost by the behaviour of centralists within the party.
  • Options
    edited June 2017
    6 shadow front bench labour members sacked for voting against the whip, although I think one quit just before the vote.
  • Sponsored links:


  • Options
    Well if I thought they were all useless, I wouldn't vote for any of them and certainly wouldn't be defending them :)
  • Options
    We sometimes look for unity in these debates, and what seems to unify people here is whatever the disparate policies may be, the political class in charge of those policies, or those opposing those policies is generally pretty rank.
    Seriously (and he's a blimmin Tory too) the last politician who I heard speak well about anything was John Major a couple of weeks ago on the wireless.
    I don't know who the guests will be on Question time this evening, but members of the audience are likely to be just, or more impressive than the speakers.
  • Options
    I feel for you if you think any of them are any good! If I don't vote I can't moan :wink:

    No comment on Corbyn above? Fire, Islington, sackings? Still the man to walk over hot coals for?

    I see the queens speech has been passed, sit tight for a few more years of blue yet (as long as there's an election in 18 or 19 so my bet comes in!)
  • Options
    edited June 2017
    Yes, He is right about the fire - we are hearing as we speak that the enquiry is not going to look at the blame! As for the sackings - it is strong leadership - a little embaressing today but will stand him in good stead later on. I think he is this country's best hope. I don't stick up for and defend people I think are useless!

    In terms of Brexit - I hate the decision of the referendum but we voted for it. There may come a time when we can try to reverse it, but that time is not now. In the meantime the sensible position has to be a soft Brexit - maybe things will look diffeernt in a year.
  • Options
    You really are following him blindly,

    In the main he said it was down to the conservatives austerity over the last 7 years. Yet the tower blocks in his own area (and many many others) where he has been an MP for 30+ years have them, fitted in 2005/2006!

    Come on, wake up and smell the coffee.
  • Options
    seth plum said:

    We sometimes look for unity in these debates, and what seems to unify people here is whatever the disparate policies may be, the political class in charge of those policies, or those opposing those policies is generally pretty rank.
    Seriously (and he's a blimmin Tory too) the last politician who I heard speak well about anything was John Major a couple of weeks ago on the wireless.
    I don't know who the guests will be on Question time this evening, but members of the audience are likely to be just, or more impressive than the speakers.

    The wireless.
    I haven't heard it called that for 20 years: )
  • Options
    Hahaha, how many times did Corbyn bite against his own party's whip?

    Power corrupts hey Jezza?
  • Options
    edited June 2017
    Yes, there has been a report that has been kicked into the long grass and letters warning of a disaster to housing ministers leaked which suggest there is a case for the government to answer. One it looks like the enquiry will steer clear of. The Blair Labour government needs to take blame too, but it depends on knowlwdge of risks and assessment of those risks. We need to look everywhere for the blame and people to push the government to do so.

    I can't wake up and enjoy the mess the likes of you and other tory voters have done to the country. I would rather go to sleep and pretend it didn't happen.
  • Options

    Yes, He is right about the fire - we are hearing as we speak that the enquiry is not going to look at the blame! As for the sackings - it is strong leadership - a little embaressing today but will stand him in good stead later on. I think he is this country's best hope. I don't stick up for and defend people I think are useless!

    In terms of Brexit - I hate the decision of the referendum but we voted for it. There may come a time when we can try to reverse it, but that time is not now. In the meantime the sensible position has to be a soft Brexit - maybe things will look diffeernt in a year.

    This is one of the many reasons I don't buy Corbyn as a leader. To know what it means to lead, you have to know what it means to follow. Corbyn has only ever done what suited himself, voting against the Labour whip many times. Sacking MPs today was not an act of leadership. It was punishment against those he couldn't lead and failed to persuade to follow him.
  • Sponsored links:


  • Options

    Yes, there has been a report that has been kicked into the long grass and letters warning of a disaster to housing ministers leaked which suggest there is a case for the government to answer. One it looks like the enquiry will steer clear of. The Blair Labour government needs to take blame too, but it depends on knowlwdge of risks and assessment of those risks. We need to look everywhere for the blame and people to push the government to do so.

    I can't wake up and enjoy the mess the likes of you and other tory voters have done to the country. I would rather go to sleep and pretend it didn't happen.

    Seeing my current tenure as a Tory voter now extends to 20 days dissapoining I'm to blame for the last 20+ years :wink:

    You really don't see the irony do you of Corbyns speech yesterday on the governments austerity being totally to blame for the fire when his own party, his own Labour council in his constituency fitted these to blocks a full 4 years prior to conservatives gaining power?

    He's also starting to rival Charlton in number of managers & players with his own front benchers. Even Katrien has learnt continual change & no stability is a recipe for disaister.....
  • Options
    Well we could argue that. Brexit is a very divisive subject and potentially damaging to both parties - he is trying to manage the risk. I suppose time will tell if his approach works or not.
  • Options

    Fiiish said:

    seth plum said:

    seth plum said:

    I doubt if Tories actively want children to die, but don't give much of a fuck if they do as long as they're somebody elses.

    Terrible post
    A fair reaction. However it is a response to Big Bad Worlds constant repeated theme that non Tories believe that Tories actively want children to die. It was his or hers attempt to close off discussion regarding NHS cuts in my view.
    If I am wrong, and Big Bad World has been sincere in those repeated posts I will apologise and donate to Demelza House.
    Even then my post was modified not an outright declaration.
    It was not my intention to close off discussion at all. Your view is wholly wrong. I've even stated why I've said what I've said in response to fiiish.

    I don't believe that Tories want children to die. Nor do I believe (well, hope that it isn't the case) that those spewing the line about people dying because of Tory policy actually believe it. If they do then my mocking of that train of thought stands.
    No one has been spewing that line though. Not in the way you are trying to portray it. Yes people have posted that the cuts in benefits and the mismanagement of the NHS have led to preventable death (which is facturally accurate). Not the same as posting 'dying children' 24/7 like you have been trying to portray since last week. Maybe don't make up complete nonsense and people won't treat you like a bored low level troll, which is how you're currently coming off as.

    You might also want to change the record, you can't just respond to every post you disagree with

  • Options

    Rob7Lee said:

    They are all as bad as each other,

    Why did the amendment have to mention Grenfell and recent terror attacks. This vote was all about Labour trying to get one up on Tory's and the Tory's not letting Labour get one up on them. Lose Lose for the country and politics in general.

    The Tory's downfall (on this subject, there are many others to come no doubt) will be when the independent report comes out with it's recommendations. My understanding is despite the pay freeze the report will recommend a level regardless. If the Tory's don't take heed of that then they are even bigger fools than I think right now.

    As i've said previously, 'public sector' is all well and good, but that makes up around 17% of the working population of this country. If any party was really for making the lives of those less fortunate/lower paid (or however you wish to describe it) better then they'd be looking at doing something for all of them, not try to score political points or carry favour with the public.

    I've no doubt a lot of the public sector deserve to earn more, but so do many, probably more (due to the 83/17% split), in the private sector, what about them? 'For the many not the few' yer right.

    I've never been so engaged in politics but also never been so saddened as to what a complete joke they all are. The quicker we get rid of both May & Corbyn the better.

    Chop chop @bobmunro with @cobbles running your campaign you've my vote, i'll even register in your constituency so that I can vote for you even if I have to buy a flat there (we can rent it to @cabbles sorry cobbles, to run the campaign from).

    Of course including reference to our emergency services in the amendment was political point scoring and it served its purpose. There was zero chance of the amendment going through, everyone knew that. It was to drive home the point that these are the sorts of public sector workers who have been subject to the ideologically driven cuts to pay and conditions.

    Most of the public, frankly, don't give a monkey's if a social worker or a EHO or a planning inspector or a teacher or a carer or a refuse collector effectively take a pay cut year after year for 15 years (because that's what we are talking about after all). And that's because we in the UK utterly undervalue our public services on the whole and if we don't use them then we're not bothered if they get treated poorly by our government.

    But when you start pointing out that this deliberate attack on public sector pay also impacts on nurses, ambulance staff, firefighters and the police then the message starts to get through. Look at the police officer interviewed yesterday. He'll quite rightly get all the plaudits and awards he deserves but the amazing bravery and selflessness he and his colleagues demonstrated isn't valued enough by this shower of a government to give them a decent pay award

    The public are starting to see that at long last and I think that's what we are seeing in the latest social attitudes survey that came out.

    As pointed out, Labour presented other measures to address the stagnent pay within the private sector but it shouldn't be a case of either/or anyway.
    Bournemouth, do you work in the public sector by any chance?
    Yes. So what? Am I not allowed to express an opinion on what I've seen and experienced? Should my and millions of others views be ignored on the basis that it's apparently or exclusively based on self-interest? I can assure you its not and I'm as pissed off at what I see as the public getting a poorer service than they should do as my own personal situation.

    Not one person goes into the public sector to earn a fortune and frankly, I'm getting a bit fed up being told by others earning 6 figure salaries at how the tax situation is somehow compensating for the lack of anything approaching an adequate pay award.

    This government says that it's alleged plan for a balanced budget won't now happen until 2025. For that read more pay "restraint" in the public sector. It's been 7+ years already, do you think that's a fair deal for people doing some of our most important jobs in society?
    I think you assumed I meant something by my question that I did not.

    However while we are on the subject of Public Sector employees with gilt edged pensions may I just point out that I know lots of people that would, literally, rip your arms off for a pay freeze with a guaranteed pension that is close to half their last years salary with three times that as a lump sum - opposed to having lost their jobs and come close to losing their homes.

    Might I also point out that it is a myth that everyone outside of the Public Sector earns in excess of £100k a year and I know many people in the Public Sector that earn more than the equivalent Private Sector.

    Ultimately what tends to happen is that during times of hardship the Public Servants all tend to see their pay reduce in real terms where as the Private Sector tend to see the numbers of employees reduce while those that survive the cull tend to be better off. Those that do not survive the cull are significantly worse off. I would suggest that it has always been thus. Both of my parents are in their 70s (and retired) but they both worked in Local Government their whole careers and that is how they describe it - ans they are amount the wealthiest retirees I know!

    Far be it from me to float the idea that we all get to choose what career path we take.

    If you are not happy with yours I don't see that as a reason to snap at me for, literally, asking if you work in the public sector!
  • Options

    Rob7Lee said:

    Rob7Lee said:

    They are all as bad as each other,

    Why did the amendment have to mention Grenfell and recent terror attacks. This vote was all about Labour trying to get one up on Tory's and the Tory's not letting Labour get one up on them. Lose Lose for the country and politics in general.

    The Tory's downfall (on this subject, there are many others to come no doubt) will be when the independent report comes out with it's recommendations. My understanding is despite the pay freeze the report will recommend a level regardless. If the Tory's don't take heed of that then they are even bigger fools than I think right now.

    As i've said previously, 'public sector' is all well and good, but that makes up around 17% of the working population of this country. If any party was really for making the lives of those less fortunate/lower paid (or however you wish to describe it) better then they'd be looking at doing something for all of them, not try to score political points or carry favour with the public.

    I've no doubt a lot of the public sector deserve to earn more, but so do many, probably more (due to the 83/17% split), in the private sector, what about them? 'For the many not the few' yer right.

    I've never been so engaged in politics but also never been so saddened as to what a complete joke they all are. The quicker we get rid of both May & Corbyn the better.

    Chop chop @bobmunro with @cobbles running your campaign you've my vote, i'll even register in your constituency so that I can vote for you even if I have to buy a flat there (we can rent it to @cabbles sorry cobbles, to run the campaign from).

    Of course including reference to our emergency services in the amendment was political point scoring and it served its purpose. There was zero chance of the amendment going through, everyone knew that. It was to drive home the point that these are the sorts of public sector workers who have been subject to the ideologically driven cuts to pay and conditions.

    Most of the public, frankly, don't give a monkey's if a social worker or a EHO or a planning inspector or a teacher or a carer or a refuse collector effectively take a pay cut year after year for 15 years (because that's what we are talking about after all). And that's because we in the UK utterly undervalue our public services on the whole and if we don't use them then we're not bothered if they get treated poorly by our government.

    But when you start pointing out that this deliberate attack on public sector pay also impacts on nurses, ambulance staff, firefighters and the police then the message starts to get through. Look at the police officer interviewed yesterday. He'll quite rightly get all the plaudits and awards he deserves but the amazing bravery and selflessness he and his colleagues demonstrated isn't valued enough by this shower of a government to give them a decent pay award

    The public are starting to see that at long last and I think that's what we are seeing in the latest social attitudes survey that came out.

    As pointed out, Labour presented other measures to address the stagnent pay within the private sector but it shouldn't be a case of either/or anyway.
    Bournemouth, do you work in the public sector by any chance?
    I'm getting a bit fed up being told by others earning 6 figure salaries at how the tax situation is somehow compensating for the lack of anything approaching an adequate pay award.

    You would rather then have had an 'adequate pay award' but be worse off than you are?

    Is lowering taxes for the lower earners not compensating then (both public & private employee's)? is it not another way of increasing the money in peoples pockets?

    It may we'll be the case that overall the pay rises together with the lower taxation hasn't gone far enough but you can't only look at one IMHO as suits. The public sector effects less than 1 in 5, let's help everyone public & private accordingly and not fall for the political games as to what sounds fashionable.

    There is a reason governments at times like these lower taxes at the lower end (either rate or personal allowance) as it helps all of the lower paid workers, not just one particular section of society such as the public sector that they can control the salaries of.

    On the flip side they will increase taxation on the higher earners to filter the money down to fill back in the gap created by lessening the tax burden of the lower earners, which the Government have continued to do since 2010.

    But although it may not be headline grabbing like 'end austerity' 'living wage' and 'Pay freeze' it's equally if not more of an efficient way to achieve the same goal.
    There you go with your trickle down economics again.

    I note your own staff had a rise of 2% this year.

    I presume you've shared your thoughts with them on how lucky they were to get to keep a little bit more before paying tax plus a rise twice that of nurses, doctors, firefighters, our armed forces, social workers, teachers, a council carer looking after a double incontinent octogenarian or even PC Wayne Marques and his colleagues?

    You did right, because otherwise that might suggest you think that it was less than it could be and might be a bit demotivating for the team and dare I suggest they might even consider you were taking the pee.

    I'm going to swerve this thread tonight I think. My missus has just walked in and is currently in tears again for the second time this week. She's covering two jobs at the moment and has so far this week taken over 200 calls from social services/NHS clients with complex mental health issues and learning difficulties, and their families, seeking help from her team. That's not to say people in other jobs don't work hard or get stressed or are subject to abuse and expected to put up with it. They do. It's just I don't think you have the first fecking clue what's going on in our public services.
    I would second that - I know lots of people who do and can concur. The pay restraint and cuts have been vicious. At the other end of this we are talking about people not getting the help and support they need.
  • Options
    Absolutely ridiculous for any Labour politician to be voting against the whip at this stage.

    Let Brexit negotiations play out, let the tide turn and then push for it. The Tories are a mess, don't give the impression that you are as well.
  • Options
    While everyone else fights, it keeps the Tories in power. Totally nonsensical.
  • Options
    edited June 2017

    Absolutely ridiculous for any Labour politician to be voting against the whip at this stage.

    Let Brexit negotiations play out, let the tide turn and then push for it. The Tories are a mess, don't give the impression that you are as well.

    This is eaxactly the right approach - I have always rated Umana but he has let himself down big time and shown he has Toryesque stupidity. Remainers shoud be pushing for a soft Brexit now and waiting for the right time and opportunity to go further if it arises due to negotiation breakdown. It looks like there is currently a small majority against Brexit now within the population, but it is still too small to act!
  • Options
    Don't know who I despise more, Theresa May and her band of looney Brexiteers or Jeremy Corbyn and his looney Momentum backers.

    The overwhelming majority of Labour voters and Labour MPs are opposed to Brexit. There is no spin that Corbyn and Macdonald and the rest of the deluded 1980's student activists currently running the Labour Party can make that will change that fact.

    Brexit, Corbyn and the DUP! It is like the UK has been diagnosed with 3 separate terminal cancers over the last 12 months! I am absolutely despondent about our future.
This discussion has been closed.

Roland Out Forever!