Yes I looked up the survey after I posted my question. Very useful. If I were the Aussies I might offer a discount for a couple of weeks after any takeover, although would anyone who had paid the higher price want a rebate?
No. Offer at the same price as those who have already purchased. Even if offered a discount I would still pay the full price.
There is no difference between those that have bought their season tickets and those who have decided to boycott their purchase. We are all committed Charlton fans.
Yes I looked up the survey after I posted my question. Very useful. If I were the Aussies I might offer a discount for a couple of weeks after any takeover, although would anyone who had paid the higher price want a rebate?
No. Offer at the same price as those who have already purchased. Even if offered a discount I would still pay the full price.
There is no difference between those that have bought their season tickets and those who have decided to boycott their purchase. We are all committed Charlton fans.
Whilst I totally agree with your comment re no discounts for those who have boycotted, I would hope they would find a way of reserving the seats for a few weeks whilst people renew.
Will be online as soon as you-know-who departs. Looks like my money will be staying with Barclays though, unless I put a sizeable chunk on us getting relegated. Be sure of one thing; if the sale doesn't go through we will struggle hugely.
Duchâtelet: 'Use success Red Devils to find Belgium again'
Calculated during the football World Cup, he builds his football empire. Because he would rather invest in social problems. Breakfast with De Tijd. "What is a man? Yet even an evolved animal. So people make mistakes. I, like everyone else. That is why you have to shield yourself emotionally when people write or say something to hurt you. How? I wonder what their problem is. " Breakfast with De Tijd Sint-Truiden, 8 o'clock, in Grand Café Stayen. With Roland Duchâtelet we talk about football, Limburg, Rock Werchter and Wikipedia. The question was how Roland Duchâtelet (71), a successful businessman, deals with reactions to the man. For example from the supporters of football club Charlton Athletic who came to Sint-Truiden to establish a political party. They already had a name: ROT, Roland Out Today. "I have never been awake." The past tense is appropriate, even if we are having breakfast at 8 o'clock in the morning at the Grand Café under the STVV stadium. Last week, the newspaper said Duchâtelet would sell Charlton Athletic. The deal is not round yet, but with a pistolet with egg and a slice of pineapple he says: 'Football does not suit me well. It is a separate world that is not mine. "
That sounds strange for someone who has been in it for more than twenty years, as a sponsor and later owner of STVV, then of Standard, Charlton, Carl Zeiss Jena from Germany and the Spanish Alcorcón. "Today you see that there are more networks of clubs such as Manchester City, Watford and Red Bull. That is more in line with the internationalization of business. But when I did, I was crazy. Perhaps I did not make the sentence clear enough, that is possible. ' The coffee did not get a chance to get cold, so early in the conversation this already seems like the confession of a mistake. 'Gosh, I have often been mistaken in my life. That's how it goes. I started TV Local a long time ago. That was too early and I did it in the wrong market. Years later, YouTube came with the same concept. But on time. And in a much larger market. This country and our language area were too small for something that was so innovative. ' To cradle Melexis A dribble, a piercing pass, an assist: once Duchâtelet himself played at White Star Woluwe, the flute acceleration was left in the body and head of the man who thirty years ago - together with Françoise Chombard and Rudi Dewinter - stood at the cradle of Melexis and later became politically active in Vivant and Open VLD.
He needs little to make trips. From football to economy to politics. "The Flemish government still does not realize that. It still requires companies to prepare documents in Dutch. We have a company that is quoted on the stock exchange in Paris, nobody speaks Dutch to the big shareholders, but everything has to be prepared in Dutch. That is just absurd. "
That indicates little vision, he thinks. Examples fly out. 'Flanders has existed for almost fifty years, but taxes are still being collected that cost more than they generate. They then created a level of government, without abolishing the provinces. Every citizen with common sense must therefore vote for the N-VA at the next provincial elections. Because she is the only party that wants to abolish the provinces. ' Except in Limburg, everyone seems to want to keep the province there. 'But Limburg is a catastrophe,' says the man who lives half-time in Antwerp and half-time in Limburg. 'This complex (Stayen, the football stadium, with hotel and conference room, ed.) Must compete with hotels sponsored by the province of Limburg: Alden Biesen, Maasmechelen Village, C-Mine, you name it. Once I asked the governor why he was so compete with the entrepreneurs. 'Because there are not enough in Limburg like you', his answer was. Well. "
But he wants to leave those provinces. 'Of course I will vote for the provincial elections N-VA. Today you have to vote tactically. Naturally I naturally vote Open VLD. Then you would be crazy to vote for the N-VA, because then you choose the F-35 fighter planes, which would be the biggest stupidity: spend so much money on something that is totally outdated. That is the same as buying a video recorder now. Engineers who are now developing a new fighter plane would never put a human in there. I do not understand that someone who is as intelligent as Bart De Wever does not understand. " Basic income He himself was a ship in Sint-Truiden and a senator for seven years. Did politics become a disappointment? "No, I'm trying to see the positive of the experience. You learn a lot, you can talk about a lot. That wealth is more important than all other forms of wealth. " Is frustration a better word? According to Duchâtelet, the tax shift comes directly from the Vivant program. Just like the tax on financial transactions. "Only the basic income is still missing. Many people are now in Silicon Valley. Richard Branson is ahead, Elon Musk, Mark Zuckerberg. But politics does not dare. " The explanation is long. He starts with the migration problem. 'The difference with fifty years ago is that migrants then found work there and thus contributed to social security. Today, 45 percent of the people are employed directly or indirectly by the government. Their taxes are therefore resources of the government itself, which contribute nothing. There are no more jobs for migrants who can bear taxes and so they have no added value economically. That sounds harsh, but in the current world of thinking of politicians and economists it is no different. Because there are no more jobs for those people, we will have to close the boundaries. ' That's how we get to the basic income, his hobbyhorse. 'If there is not enough work, you have to make sure that there is still an income. Politicians no longer have to say jobs, jobs, jobs. They have to say: income, income, income. If you continue to build social security, as the N-VA wants, people will no longer be able to shop, to football or to a restaurant. So the economy collapses. '
‘With 200 euros per month up to 17 years, 550 euros for people between 18 and 25, 750 euros to 65 and 1.300 per month afterwards, you get there. That basic income is part of the current wage or the current benefit. It is therefore not on top of the current wage, as some suggest it. Social security is a house that has existed for seventy years, but is not isolated and has no double glazing yet. At most, a rear kitchen was added. You should completely break it down and build a new house: based on the basic income. ' Conservative But then there is 'the system'. "As a politician, you must have enough votes. You do not get that when you say things that upset people. (laughing) I always did that. And you certainly can not tell anything innovative, because people are essentially conservative. Take the basic income. You can not politically sell it, because it would make people independent of political service and that is the nightmare for politicians. People themselves would only realize how good it is when it is there. That is the paradox. ' 'If you do not innovate in business, you will die. If you do not innovate in politics, you survive. That frustrated sometimes, yes. An example: normally all those young people who are in Werchter today, should now be in Brustem near Sint-Truiden. That agreement was round, Herman Schueremans wanted that too, but the then sp.a mayor (Ludwig Vandenhove, ed.) Stopped it because he was afraid that I would be the winner there. That was fired purely for political reasons. '
'The socialists have their pawns everywhere, also at De Lijn and at Roads and Traffic. So yes, it is true that the sossen work against a lot. But the N-VA is unfortunately not the solution. Because then you will sit with obsolete combat aircraft, without social security and with a split country. What is silly. The opportunity that the success of the Red Devils offers should now be used to re-invent Belgium. Make English the official language and let everyone else speak their own language. ' Ideas are enough, but politics is a thing of the past. The question is: would a successful entrepreneur not be able to put all those ideas and energy - and perhaps his money - into an NGO? 'Most people with a large capacity that I know also have a big social side. I support a few people who are struggling. But too many people think that a rich tide can replace social security and have time to deepen their problems. That is not true. There are three projects that I fully help. One: Wikipedia. Because free dissemination of knowledge in the world is extremely important. Two: Transparency International, an organization that fights corruption. And three: BIEN, stands for Basic Income European Network. '
"We were home with five children," he says. "My father was a gendarmerie officer and my parents thought it was important for us to get that. My brother Alain, who died six months ago, became a gendarmerie colonel. A sister taught all her life, a brother went into private and another became a soldier. My parents, in particular, felt important in their responsibility. I also try to give my six children that. ' Who is 71 might think of retirement. He does not do that. 'Stopping is not as easy as an entrepreneur. My added value is that I understand fairly well how the global economy works. Not many people have that, and you can not just pass it on. ' Who 71 is, can also look back. Far even. Were his achievements and his activities, until today, at Melexis, X-FAB and in the hospitality industry around Stayen, a childhood dream? "Not at all," he says. "I wanted to play and have comrades. My only ambition was to be happy. And that is still the case. ' The coffee has become cold.
I must confess, I copied and pasted before reading it - now I’ve read it I’m thinking of suing the old bastard for the loss of ten minutes of my life. Boring old twat.
Pistolet with egg and a slice of pineapple and coffee...ingredients from the network ? if only he had introduced that to the Valley catering, all of this shit with the fans could have been avoided...
I'm just convincing myself that the Aussies are simply waiting to see who wins the world cup before snapping up the entire winning squad and management team and closing the deal for Charlton on Monday.
I'm just convincing myself that the Aussies are simply waiting to see who wins the world cup before snapping up the entire winning squad and management team and closing the deal for Charlton on Monday.
Yes I looked up the survey after I posted my question. Very useful. If I were the Aussies I might offer a discount for a couple of weeks after any takeover, although would anyone who had paid the higher price want a rebate?
It is easily manageable not to piss off those who have bought by either sending them the difference back or even more simpler deduct it from the following season.
All it needs is some joined up thinking like what Target 10k were excellent at during the 90s
Sorry Rick but your post directly contradicts the one you posted immediately above. While I appreciate your inside info and fanzine, you are speculating again and many of your ITK observations have proved to be just that. Was your contact a CCC or L1? There is a difference. Stripe, PayPal, Worldpay, Paypoint, Shopify, Sage, 1st Data? All may have different protocols. They are not banks per sè. You are commenting on an issue raised by RD's lackey. If it was a problem at the club, why didn't your contacts appraise you sooner? Also, see Stig's contribution a few pages back.
You misread the post. I am not speculating. You said that “banks” (your description) never advance payments in this situation and hence that “morons” thinking there is anything unusual here are wrong.
It strikes me that the bank are looking at the current situation of the club and are addressing the risk that cash is released and taken out of the business rather than provisioned against commitments (e.g. wages, supplier invoices), something that may ultimately render the club insolvent if an unpaid supplier opts to head to court. This doesn't mean the club is in a parlous financial situation, it does mean that the bank considers the sum of the current complexities a risk that needs mitigating.
My understanding is that we are only talking about income from season ticket sales where credit cards have been used as payment. The banks cannot withhold money received on ticket sales where the payment method is cash, cheque or Debit Card.
I wonder what proportion of season ticket sales are paid for using a credit card?
I think you can rule out cash and cheque as relatively trivial by volume in 2018, although the club’s assertion it was still (unlawfully) charging a fee for credit cards will have put off some. Although “credit cards” was stated it may well extend to debit cards because of the (weaker) legal protection they offer.
I would be astounded if banks were allowed to withhold monies paid via debit cards. Surely the money goes directly from the payee's account into the club's account.
No. It doesn't. There is never a "direct route". It would also not be a "bank" per se withholding funds. But a payment services provider or acquirer. The fact that the chances are that a bank provides this service through a subsidiary is neither here nor there.
Here's how it works:
Part One: The punter presents their card to a merchant; the transaction data is collected and passed to an acquirer; the acquirer passes a transaction authorisation request to the Card Scheme (usually Visa or Mastercard); the Card Scheme routes the transaction to the card issuer (your bank or credit card issuer).
Part Two: The card issuer gives an authorisation response (normally, yes) to the Card Scheme and debits your account; the approval is routed first to the acquirer and then the merchant and the merchants computer or terminal says yes.
The acquirer is the important part of this process. They will have a merchant service agreement with the merchant and will only pass on funds (less their fees) if they are sure that they will not be at risk from loss. If there is a chargeback (debit card) or S75 CCA refund (credit card) then it will be the acquirer that pays the card issuer, via the Scheme and tries to get the money back from the merchant (if they still exist).
So, if the acquirer sees the merchant as being high risk, they may well hold funds in the merchant's account with them and payout in tranches on a rolling basis. The crucial thing is what the merchant service agreement says in this regard.
By way of example, this is an extract from the Merchant Services Agreement from Worldpay, one of the largest acquirers.
5.2 In respect of any sums specified in clause 5.3 below, we may at our option (which we may exercise in our sole and absolute discretion): (A) deduct or withhold such sums from, or set-off such sums against, any amount we are otherwise obliged to pay you; and/or (B) send you an invoice for any or all such sums, which invoice shall be payable in accordance with its terms and within the relevant period specified in clause 4.3;
The sums referred to in clause 5.2 are: (A) any Refunds; (B) any Chargebacks; (C) any Assessments; (D) any Chargeback Costs; (E) any Claims; (F) any Anticipated Liabilities; (G) any Fees; and (H) any other charges or amounts due from you to us under this Agreement or otherwise.
The bold bits are my emphasis.
The only reason I can see why an acquirer would care (or even know) if a card was classified as a debit or credit card would be if it impacted their level of fees. Then take, for example, the fact that some Amex cards are credit cards but many are just charge cards. (Not that that matters for Charlton because they don't accept Amex!)
What are the possible "anticipated liabilities " that would justify an acquirer withholding any part of my Debit card payment for a season ticket? Why would the possibility of the club going bust in the near future justify them withholding any part of a Debit card payment?
That's obvious is it not?
A season ticket entitles you to attend 23 sporting fixtures from August 2018 through to May 2019. That's close to a 10 month period. You, as, say, a Barclaycard Visa debit card holder have used the card to pre-pay for 23 football games.
Barclays, under the Visa Europe terms of business are required to offer a chargeback scheme. Barclays' t&cs say: ...you send a request to us within 120 days of discovering the problem, or 540 days from the transaction date – whichever comes first. We may not be able to help you get your money back outside of this time period. These timescales may change depending on the nature of your query.
So, let's say Charlton fail to fulfil their fixtures because the club ceases to exist 8 games into the season. (Because the Aussies finally pull out and Roland dies and the beneficiaries of his estate no longer wish to fund a football club, but fancy the idea of building houses on the land assets, for example.)
You would not have received 15/23rds of the services you had pre-paid for. Under the t&cs of your contract with Barclays you would claim this money back from them. And they would refund you on a pro rata basis. In turn Barclays would claim it back from the aforementioned "acquirer". They would consequently be out of pocket because they could not claim it back from the merchant.
They clearly believe Charlton are at risk of failure and are treating such monies as "anticipated liabilities". (Liabilities don't always come to fruition of course.) On that basis it makes perfect sense for them to only release monies on a match-by-match basis until such time as the future of the club is more clearly defined. You'll note that under the terms of the contract I used as an example that they have absolute discretion in this decision-making process. (Other firms may have different terms, of course.)
Oh god. I've posted that 'It's Happening' gif so many times on this thread now, it's lost all meaning. I think I've got one more left in me though. It'll be my last though so I have to pick my moment.
I'm just convincing myself that the Aussies are simply waiting to see who wins the world cup before snapping up the entire winning squad and management team and closing the deal for Charlton on Monday.
Comments
There is no difference between those that have bought their season tickets and those who have decided to boycott their purchase. We are all committed Charlton fans.
https://www.tijd.be/dossier/ontbijt/duchatelet-gebruik-succes-rode-duivels-om-belgie-heruit-te-vinden/10029285.html
Duchâtelet: 'Use success Red Devils to find Belgium again'
Calculated during the football World Cup, he builds his football empire. Because he would rather invest in social problems. Breakfast with De Tijd.
"What is a man? Yet even an evolved animal. So people make mistakes. I, like everyone else. That is why you have to shield yourself emotionally when people write or say something to hurt you. How? I wonder what their problem is. "
Breakfast with De Tijd
Sint-Truiden, 8 o'clock, in Grand Café Stayen.
With Roland Duchâtelet we talk about football, Limburg, Rock Werchter and Wikipedia.
The question was how Roland Duchâtelet (71), a successful businessman, deals with reactions to the man. For example from the supporters of football club Charlton Athletic who came to Sint-Truiden to establish a political party. They already had a name: ROT, Roland Out Today. "I have never been awake."
The past tense is appropriate, even if we are having breakfast at 8 o'clock in the morning at the Grand Café under the STVV stadium. Last week, the newspaper said Duchâtelet would sell Charlton Athletic. The deal is not round yet, but with a pistolet with egg and a slice of pineapple he says: 'Football does not suit me well. It is a separate world that is not mine. "
That sounds strange for someone who has been in it for more than twenty years, as a sponsor and later owner of STVV, then of Standard, Charlton, Carl Zeiss Jena from Germany and the Spanish Alcorcón. "Today you see that there are more networks of clubs such as Manchester City, Watford and Red Bull. That is more in line with the internationalization of business. But when I did, I was crazy. Perhaps I did not make the sentence clear enough, that is possible. '
The coffee did not get a chance to get cold, so early in the conversation this already seems like the confession of a mistake. 'Gosh, I have often been mistaken in my life. That's how it goes. I started TV Local a long time ago. That was too early and I did it in the wrong market. Years later, YouTube came with the same concept. But on time. And in a much larger market. This country and our language area were too small for something that was so innovative. '
To cradle Melexis
A dribble, a piercing pass, an assist: once Duchâtelet himself played at White Star Woluwe, the flute acceleration was left in the body and head of the man who thirty years ago - together with Françoise Chombard and Rudi Dewinter - stood at the cradle of Melexis and later became politically active in Vivant and Open VLD.
He needs little to make trips. From football to economy to politics. "The Flemish government still does not realize that. It still requires companies to prepare documents in Dutch. We have a company that is quoted on the stock exchange in Paris, nobody speaks Dutch to the big shareholders, but everything has to be prepared in Dutch. That is just absurd. "
That indicates little vision, he thinks. Examples fly out. 'Flanders has existed for almost fifty years, but taxes are still being collected that cost more than they generate. They then created a level of government, without abolishing the provinces. Every citizen with common sense must therefore vote for the N-VA at the next provincial elections. Because she is the only party that wants to abolish the provinces. '
Except in Limburg, everyone seems to want to keep the province there. 'But Limburg is a catastrophe,' says the man who lives half-time in Antwerp and half-time in Limburg. 'This complex (Stayen, the football stadium, with hotel and conference room, ed.) Must compete with hotels sponsored by the province of Limburg: Alden Biesen, Maasmechelen Village, C-Mine, you name it. Once I asked the governor why he was so compete with the entrepreneurs. 'Because there are not enough in Limburg like you', his answer was. Well. "
But he wants to leave those provinces. 'Of course I will vote for the provincial elections N-VA. Today you have to vote tactically. Naturally I naturally vote Open VLD. Then you would be crazy to vote for the N-VA, because then you choose the F-35 fighter planes, which would be the biggest stupidity: spend so much money on something that is totally outdated. That is the same as buying a video recorder now. Engineers who are now developing a new fighter plane would never put a human in there. I do not understand that someone who is as intelligent as Bart De Wever does not understand. "
Basic income
He himself was a ship in Sint-Truiden and a senator for seven years. Did politics become a disappointment? "No, I'm trying to see the positive of the experience. You learn a lot, you can talk about a lot. That wealth is more important than all other forms of wealth. "
Is frustration a better word? According to Duchâtelet, the tax shift comes directly from the Vivant program. Just like the tax on financial transactions. "Only the basic income is still missing. Many people are now in Silicon Valley. Richard Branson is ahead, Elon Musk, Mark Zuckerberg. But politics does not dare. "
The explanation is long. He starts with the migration problem. 'The difference with fifty years ago is that migrants then found work there and thus contributed to social security. Today, 45 percent of the people are employed directly or indirectly by the government. Their taxes are therefore resources of the government itself, which contribute nothing. There are no more jobs for migrants who can bear taxes and so they have no added value economically. That sounds harsh, but in the current world of thinking of politicians and economists it is no different. Because there are no more jobs for those people, we will have to close the boundaries. '
That's how we get to the basic income, his hobbyhorse. 'If there is not enough work, you have to make sure that there is still an income. Politicians no longer have to say jobs, jobs, jobs. They have to say: income, income, income. If you continue to build social security, as the N-VA wants, people will no longer be able to shop, to football or to a restaurant. So the economy collapses. '
Part two coming up...
‘With 200 euros per month up to 17 years, 550 euros for people between 18 and 25, 750 euros to 65 and 1.300 per month afterwards, you get there. That basic income is part of the current wage or the current benefit. It is therefore not on top of the current wage, as some suggest it. Social security is a house that has existed for seventy years, but is not isolated and has no double glazing yet. At most, a rear kitchen was added. You should completely break it down and build a new house: based on the basic income. '
Conservative
But then there is 'the system'. "As a politician, you must have enough votes. You do not get that when you say things that upset people. (laughing) I always did that. And you certainly can not tell anything innovative, because people are essentially conservative. Take the basic income. You can not politically sell it, because it would make people independent of political service and that is the nightmare for politicians. People themselves would only realize how good it is when it is there. That is the paradox. '
'If you do not innovate in business, you will die. If you do not innovate in politics, you survive. That frustrated sometimes, yes. An example: normally all those young people who are in Werchter today, should now be in Brustem near Sint-Truiden. That agreement was round, Herman Schueremans wanted that too, but the then sp.a mayor (Ludwig Vandenhove, ed.) Stopped it because he was afraid that I would be the winner there. That was fired purely for political reasons. '
'The socialists have their pawns everywhere, also at De Lijn and at Roads and Traffic. So yes, it is true that the sossen work against a lot. But the N-VA is unfortunately not the solution. Because then you will sit with obsolete combat aircraft, without social security and with a split country. What is silly. The opportunity that the success of the Red Devils offers should now be used to re-invent Belgium. Make English the official language and let everyone else speak their own language. '
Ideas are enough, but politics is a thing of the past. The question is: would a successful entrepreneur not be able to put all those ideas and energy - and perhaps his money - into an NGO?
'Most people with a large capacity that I know also have a big social side. I support a few people who are struggling. But too many people think that a rich tide can replace social security and have time to deepen their problems. That is not true. There are three projects that I fully help. One: Wikipedia. Because free dissemination of knowledge in the world is extremely important. Two: Transparency International, an organization that fights corruption. And three: BIEN, stands for Basic Income European Network. '
"We were home with five children," he says. "My father was a gendarmerie officer and my parents thought it was important for us to get that. My brother Alain, who died six months ago, became a gendarmerie colonel. A sister taught all her life, a brother went into private and another became a soldier. My parents, in particular, felt important in their responsibility. I also try to give my six children that. '
Who is 71 might think of retirement. He does not do that. 'Stopping is not as easy as an entrepreneur. My added value is that I understand fairly well how the global economy works. Not many people have that, and you can not just pass it on. '
Who 71 is, can also look back. Far even. Were his achievements and his activities, until today, at Melexis, X-FAB and in the hospitality industry around Stayen, a childhood dream? "Not at all," he says. "I wanted to play and have comrades. My only ambition was to be happy. And that is still the case. '
The coffee has become cold.
Boring old twat.
All it needs is some joined up thinking like what Target 10k were excellent at during the 90s
That’s based on nothing more than this is my last week in work before a summer holiday, so I’m in a good mood.