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Rail prosecution/fine advice

Hi there,

Interested in people's advise on this one.

A couple of weeks ago due to unforeseen circumstance I was running late for my train to work (Maidstone to Snodland 10mins - £3.60) and had to jump on the train without buying a ticket, knowing someone would be round.

A member of staff came round and I asked if I could buy a return for the journey. He said he couldn't sell me one but would have to take my details and I'd be written to and could explain my reason (which I told him at the time).

Letter arrived a week later saying i'd been involved in an incident on X at X (details of incident not specified) and said I had to reply within 7 days or prosecution would follow. I completed the enclosed form with my details and wrote a page explaining why it happened etc etc.

Letter received back today saying there was nothing in my response that negates my legal liability in this matter bla bla bla. They then say policy is to prosecute all those reported for fare evasion, however considering my particular circumstances and my first reported offence, on this occasion only they will settle prior to a court summons if I pay the £3.60 fare avoided and a contribution of £125 towards their costs to date and must be paid within 21 days etc etc. Failure will lead to the issue of a summons without further warning.


Now despite the fact I could not avoid the circumstance on the day I can tolerate a fine just about. Where I'm fuming is the £125 towards our costs to date. Now they have sent me two letters - that plus a bit of system updating does not equate to £125 to me and is completely unreasonable for a £3.60 avoided fare.

The fact the service is shit and often involves late trains and cancellations resulting in inconvenience and cost to me annoys me even more.

Does anyone believe I have a leg to stand on in challenging that cost? I'm sure they try it on, knowing that most will buckle under the threats, which I'll probably end up doing, but the principal of the matter infuriates me as much as anything.

Any advice or opinion appreciated.

Thanks.
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Comments

  • I would say that you are willing to pay the price of the fare and the cost of posting the letters to you so far, otherwise you will gladly go to court as the fact you tried to pay on the day, tell them you have witnesses to that (lie or otherwise) but were rather rudely refused and that a recent survey has come out saying ticket machines are not fit for purpose as customers are always getting confused by them.
  • edited February 2017
    Surely your legal obigation is to pay the fare, which you sought to do.
    If their system does not enable them to sell you a ticket on the train (what nonsense!) then the fault is theirs. It doesn't look to me as though you were trying to evade the fare, and surely any reasonable person would see it the same way.

    My local station (GWR) is just a halt with no ticket machine, so of course they are happy to sell you a ticket on the train. That's how it's meant to operate.

    On principle, if you can afford the time and grief, i would challenge this one. But why did they not just issue a £20 penalty fare, which although not great you could regard as being not unreasonable? They are the idiots making a mountain out of a molehill, and their response is stupid and disproportionate. And £125 for two letters is outrageous - they dont give you £125 when you claim a refund for their screwups, but the amount of admin you have to do is similar. They have chosen to incur that "cost" by being ridiculous - it should be fought. There must be a rail user group online that can give advice though.

    I agree with your contention that they are just seeking easy money.

    Good luck!






  • Have loads on my line paying on the train so of you can do it on one line then why not another? I left home today without my annual ticket and arrived at station as train arrived and intended to pay on train. The guy on the train machine wasn't working so couldn't sell me one. Travelled Battle to Sevenoaks without a ticket.
  • edited February 2017
    https://www.southeasternrailway.co.uk/about-us/our-policies/penalty-fares-policy

    Not sure whether or not this helps but their own rules seem to say whichever is the greater of £20 or twice the unpaid fare!
  • 9.2 If you are unable to present a valid Ticket when asked, we are permitted, in law,
    to take one of the following measures:

    a) To charge you a Penalty Fare on certain trains and stations (see section 10 below); or

    b) To charge you the full undiscounted anytime single fare to a station directly served by the train that you are on. You will not be entitled to any discounts or special terms, or for a Ticket to a station other than one served by the train that you are on; or

    c) To report you for prosecution.


    If you are unable to present a valid Ticket or to pay a fare (including a part payment of a Penalty Fare to the value of the Ticket required) when requested, you will be required to provide your name and address so that the matter can be followed up.

    That's taken from the National Rail contract between themselves and you. As it sounds like you were able to pay the fare (including any possible penalty fare/fine) on the day, it's the fault of the conductor for not having taken the other necessary steps?

    Not entirely sure (I'm definitely not a lawyer!) But I feel they're being entirely unreasonable! Especially for a 10 minute, £3.60 journey.
  • Why did the guard not sell you a ticket on the train? Is it against their policy? I forgot to tap in once at Elephant and a guard appeared on the train at Herne Hill and I just got an automatic fine of £30. It was more if not paid within so many days. Buying a ticket on the train was not an option with that trainline.
  • South Eastern are horrendous at best of times and that fine just takes the piss. Maybe tweet them as they won't likely want the bad publicity
  • South Eastern are horrendous at best of times and that fine just takes the piss. Maybe tweet them as they won't likely want the bad publicity

    #Licencedthieves
  • LenGlover said:

    South Eastern are horrendous at best of times and that fine just takes the piss. Maybe tweet them as they won't likely want the bad publicity

    #Licencedthieves
    So true Len, it's a legalised racket
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  • subject to the disclaimer that I'm not a lawyer, and I do not work for the railways...

    My understanding is that the legal position is that you should (if there is either a ticket office or a ticket vending machine) buy a ticket before getting on a train, and that your not getting to the station late is not the railway's fault.

    There are a lot of people out there who will do their best to avoid paying the fare, and if the worst that will happen is that you sometimes get asked to pay the ordinary fare for the shortest plausible journey you could have been making at the point you're asked, then it doesn't really encourage anyone to bother paying.

    In general, it's not really practical for staff to try and judge whether someone is 'genuine' or not.

    There are some train routes where train guards / conductors sell tickets as a matter of course (usually because some stations don't have ticket selling facilities) - I don't know the line through Snodland, or what ticket selling facilities were available where you started your journey, or what notices were on display saying you must buy a ticket before travelling.

    In the London suburbs, i'm fairly sure there are notices that make it clear you must have a valid ticket before travelling, SE Trains don't have staff who sell tickets on trains, although you will occasionally get ticket checked by 'revenue protection' staff.

    Some train companies (or their staff) don't help themselves as some days they will happily sell you a ticket on the train or at your destination, other days they will not.

    As others have mentioned, SE Trains do have a 'penalty fare' scheme, and I'm surprised that they seem to have gone straight down the 'fare evasion' line. Did the member of staff who took your details offer a penalty fare at the time? (I have a feeling that if s/he did, and you refused this, then they can go down the prosecution path)

    The rail uk forums (link) has a 'disputes and prosecutions' section where you might get some better informed opinions.
  • I think it's a strict liability offence so I'm pretty sure you're reasons aren't a valid defence.
    Transport for London (for offences on buses/tubes) charge a £250 payment towards costs in order to avoid prosecution and a criminal record !!
  • have you ever paid on the train, on this route and using a card (or cash and you still have the ticket as proof)

    if so that would seem like pretty good evidence that it was your understanding that paying on the train is acceptable
  • Think there needs to be civil disobedience mass organisation. If you offer to buy a ticket and they refuse and want to take your details, tell them you're Alan Pardew of 1 Bell End Lane, Croydon, CR3 T1N
  • LenGlover said:

    South Eastern are horrendous at best of times and that fine just takes the piss. Maybe tweet them as they won't likely want the bad publicity

    #Licencedthieves
    All the train companies are thieves - every last one of them.

    Had an incident myself on Tuesday a return to/from Liverpool booked and even though I missed my train home by minutes through circumstances beyond my control I was still forced to buy a new ticket at the added expense of £82.90 being the cheapest ticket home - costing more than my original booked journey combined!

    Lesson learnt - train companies have no compassion whatsoever and are all thieving b*stards.
  • You could give any old cock and bull details regarding address etc....
    The fact you told the truth and are - was willing to pay the fare should be enough.
  • LenGlover said:

    South Eastern are horrendous at best of times and that fine just takes the piss. Maybe tweet them as they won't likely want the bad publicity

    #Licencedthieves
    All the train companies are thieves - every last one of them.

    Had an incident myself on Tuesday a return to/from Liverpool booked and even though I missed my train home by minutes through circumstances beyond my control I was still forced to buy a new ticket at the added expense of £82.90 being the cheapest ticket home - costing more than my original booked journey combined!

    Lesson learnt - train companies have no compassion whatsoever and are all thieving b*stards.
    Yeah but if you missed a football match due circumstances out of your control would you expect to be let in to watch the next match free?
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  • Unfortunately, Alan Dugdales post above is harsh but accurate, as the law stands the bastards hold all the aces.
  • Looks like you got off lightly, compared to this.
  • Is there no contactless card payment at Maidstone? If there is I think you may well be screwed.
  • LenGlover said:

    South Eastern are horrendous at best of times and that fine just takes the piss. Maybe tweet them as they won't likely want the bad publicity

    #Licencedthieves
    All the train companies are thieves - every last one of them.

    Had an incident myself on Tuesday a return to/from Liverpool booked and even though I missed my train home by minutes through circumstances beyond my control I was still forced to buy a new ticket at the added expense of £82.90 being the cheapest ticket home - costing more than my original booked journey combined!

    Lesson learnt - train companies have no compassion whatsoever and are all thieving b*stards.
    What type of ticket did you have?

    Was it an Advance ticket that specifies a particular train? If so, then if you miss that train, whatever the circumstances, you have to pay for another service. It's clearly stated in the rules for the ticket.

    If you want to travel on any service then buy an Anytime ticket which allows this but it costs more.

  • MrOneLung said:

    LenGlover said:

    South Eastern are horrendous at best of times and that fine just takes the piss. Maybe tweet them as they won't likely want the bad publicity

    #Licencedthieves
    All the train companies are thieves - every last one of them.

    Had an incident myself on Tuesday a return to/from Liverpool booked and even though I missed my train home by minutes through circumstances beyond my control I was still forced to buy a new ticket at the added expense of £82.90 being the cheapest ticket home - costing more than my original booked journey combined!

    Lesson learnt - train companies have no compassion whatsoever and are all thieving b*stards.
    Yeah but if you missed a football match due circumstances out of your control would you expect to be let in to watch the next match free?
    I was 5 mins late for the train. If you were 5 mins late for football you'd still be let in. Different set of circumstances altogether though I do see your point. Not saying I should have just been waltzed on to the next train but having to pay for a new ticket which cost more than the original combined journey was just plain extortion.
  • Would all be easier if they put card readers on trains so you could tap like you do on buses.
  • edited February 2017
    You should have told the inspector that your name was Luther Blisset.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sport/football/293678.stm
  • edited February 2017

    MrOneLung said:

    LenGlover said:

    South Eastern are horrendous at best of times and that fine just takes the piss. Maybe tweet them as they won't likely want the bad publicity

    #Licencedthieves
    All the train companies are thieves - every last one of them.

    Had an incident myself on Tuesday a return to/from Liverpool booked and even though I missed my train home by minutes through circumstances beyond my control I was still forced to buy a new ticket at the added expense of £82.90 being the cheapest ticket home - costing more than my original booked journey combined!

    Lesson learnt - train companies have no compassion whatsoever and are all thieving b*stards.
    Yeah but if you missed a football match due circumstances out of your control would you expect to be let in to watch the next match free?
    I was 5 mins late for the train. If you were 5 mins late for football you'd still be let in. Different set of circumstances altogether though I do see your point. Not saying I should have just been waltzed on to the next train but having to pay for a new ticket which cost more than the original combined journey was just plain extortion.
    I have every sympathy with you.....but they've got you by the goolies and they know it.......it no doubt makes you feel a bit better coming on here and sounding off(I know the feeling) we all know it's unjust......sometimes shit happens, ain't life a bitch Martin!
  • Think the train companies are taken the piss, fancy actually running a train on time.
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