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Agents, corruption, FA and all turn a blind eye...

Two part article.

In the second article we are reminded that STVV are one of four clubs fined under new Third Party Ownership rules. But overall it is a story of authorities, here and around the world, complicit in the corruption. You want to be an agent? Pay the FA £500, and , er, that's it. You're good to go.

People like @nth london addick think I am too critical of agents, and their effect on the game. Read this and decide for yourselves. Mind you as the excellent lawyer from Mishcon says, it is the authorities' fault. They have completely abdicated their duties.It all adds up to the need for an independent regulator of football. Because as usual, when the 'free market" is just allowed to let rip, it is us punters who end up paying the bills.

Comments

  • @PragueAddick as The FA are pretending to crack down on third party ownership at the moment, could it be worth the Trust reminding them that Duchatelet is guilty of this. Not just at STTV, but it was quite widely publicised that he stood to profit from Batshuayi's move to Chelsea from Standard, after he'd 'sold' the club. Do we know for certain he hasn't tried it at Charlton?
  • @PragueAddick as The FA are pretending to crack down on third party ownership at the moment, could it be worth the Trust reminding them that Duchatelet is guilty of this. Not just at STTV, but it was quite widely publicised that he stood to profit from Batshuayi's move to Chelsea from Standard, after he'd 'sold' the club. Do we know for certain he hasn't tried it at Charlton?

    Hmm. Interesting idea. I will talk to the team about this.

    Given the FA are, as you say, pretending, one wonders whether it might be more effective addressing the question to the Guardian....

  • How many of the top dogs at the FA actually understand the game and how football fans think or even try to understand why things have gone wrong at clubs like ours and Coventry and Leeds etc.

    Maybe it's too much trouble and they don't want to lose their nice corporate freebies.

  • To be fair to free markets @PragueAddick, the article makes it quite clear that being an "unregulated" market is the problem. The laws and regulations that exist are not being followed or enforced and the ones needed are not on the agenda.

    (Free markets are what we might get after Brexit :smile:)
  • Nothing wrong with the FA just because they fly ist class and are given £10000 pound watches they are honest as the day is long !!!.
  • Welly said:

    Nothing wrong with the FA just because they fly ist class and are given £10000 pound watches they are honest as the day is long !!!.

    then longer the day light, the less i can rob...
  • How some of these owners pass a 'fit for purpose' test is beyond me. I think that prospective owners - even of they prove financial stability - should be made to state their aims for the intended club and sign a legally binding agreement to this end and if they deviate from this the FA or EFL should have power to step in. Course, it will never happen as we all know these organisations are only in it for the money and really couldn't give a toss about clubs like us and Blackpool.
  • @PragueAddick as The FA are pretending to crack down on third party ownership at the moment, could it be worth the Trust reminding them that Duchatelet is guilty of this. Not just at STTV, but it was quite widely publicised that he stood to profit from Batshuayi's move to Chelsea from Standard, after he'd 'sold' the club. Do we know for certain he hasn't tried it at Charlton?

    Hmm. Interesting idea. I will talk to the team about this.

    Given the FA are, as you say, pretending, one wonders whether it might be more effective addressing the question to the Guardian....

    Even better.
  • addick05 said:

    How some of these owners pass a 'fit for purpose' test is beyond me. I think that prospective owners - even of they prove financial stability - should be made to state their aims for the intended club and sign a legally binding agreement to this end and if they deviate from this the FA or EFL should have power to step in. Course, it will never happen as we all know these organisations are only in it for the money and really couldn't give a toss about clubs like us and Blackpool.

    Genuine question.

    I assume this is reference to the way RD runs Charlton. When he bought Charlton, he had the financial muscle (tick in the right box). In terms of stated aims, they surely were to progress to the Premier League (tick in the right box for your "stated aims" - nothing can be guaranteed).

    Not therefore sure how the FA could judge at that stage that RD would fail the "fit and proper" criteria (whatever that is).
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  • addick05 said:

    How some of these owners pass a 'fit for purpose' test is beyond me. I think that prospective owners - even of they prove financial stability - should be made to state their aims for the intended club and sign a legally binding agreement to this end and if they deviate from this the FA or EFL should have power to step in. Course, it will never happen as we all know these organisations are only in it for the money and really couldn't give a toss about clubs like us and Blackpool.

    Are you 5 years old?
  • PeterGage said:

    addick05 said:

    How some of these owners pass a 'fit for purpose' test is beyond me. I think that prospective owners - even of they prove financial stability - should be made to state their aims for the intended club and sign a legally binding agreement to this end and if they deviate from this the FA or EFL should have power to step in. Course, it will never happen as we all know these organisations are only in it for the money and really couldn't give a toss about clubs like us and Blackpool.

    Genuine question.

    I assume this is reference to the way RD runs Charlton. When he bought Charlton, he had the financial muscle (tick in the right box). In terms of stated aims, they surely were to progress to the Premier League (tick in the right box for your "stated aims" - nothing can be guaranteed).

    Not therefore sure how the FA could judge at that stage that RD would fail the "fit and proper" criteria (whatever that is).
    That is a very good point, unfortunately. Indeed if anyone could be bothered to conduct a review of CL opinions in the first few months of the RD reign, some quite noisy Lifers would have red faces.

    In fact other Trusts, led by Blackburn, have worked out that the entire regulatory environment of football (basically non-existent) is the problem and they are bringing together a group which will try to develop a frame work for a more effective regulatory system.

    Footnote; @Dippenhall . So there is a place for regulation in a 'free" market? Good man. Definitely a closet Lib Dem there, once you have finally realised what a disaster Brexit is going to be :-)

  • iainment said:

    addick05 said:

    How some of these owners pass a 'fit for purpose' test is beyond me. I think that prospective owners - even of they prove financial stability - should be made to state their aims for the intended club and sign a legally binding agreement to this end and if they deviate from this the FA or EFL should have power to step in. Course, it will never happen as we all know these organisations are only in it for the money and really couldn't give a toss about clubs like us and Blackpool.

    Are you 5 years old?
    Is there any need to be a condescending bellend?
  • PeterGage said:

    addick05 said:

    How some of these owners pass a 'fit for purpose' test is beyond me. I think that prospective owners - even of they prove financial stability - should be made to state their aims for the intended club and sign a legally binding agreement to this end and if they deviate from this the FA or EFL should have power to step in. Course, it will never happen as we all know these organisations are only in it for the money and really couldn't give a toss about clubs like us and Blackpool.

    Genuine question.

    I assume this is reference to the way RD runs Charlton. When he bought Charlton, he had the financial muscle (tick in the right box). In terms of stated aims, they surely were to progress to the Premier League (tick in the right box for your "stated aims" - nothing can be guaranteed).

    Not therefore sure how the FA could judge at that stage that RD would fail the "fit and proper" criteria (whatever that is).
    That is a very good point, unfortunately. Indeed if anyone could be bothered to conduct a review of CL opinions in the first few months of the RD reign, some quite noisy Lifers would have red faces.

    In fact other Trusts, led by Blackburn, have worked out that the entire regulatory environment of football (basically non-existent) is the problem and they are bringing together a group which will try to develop a frame work for a more effective regulatory system.

    Footnote; @Dippenhall . So there is a place for regulation in a 'free" market? Good man. Definitely a closet Lib Dem there, once you have finally realised what a disaster Brexit is going to be :-)

    Retrospective "fit and proper" test? Surely not feasible. And your retrospective test, by your words, is based upon CL opinions; again, surely not.
  • PeterGage said:

    addick05 said:

    How some of these owners pass a 'fit for purpose' test is beyond me. I think that prospective owners - even of they prove financial stability - should be made to state their aims for the intended club and sign a legally binding agreement to this end and if they deviate from this the FA or EFL should have power to step in. Course, it will never happen as we all know these organisations are only in it for the money and really couldn't give a toss about clubs like us and Blackpool.

    Genuine question.

    I assume this is reference to the way RD runs Charlton. When he bought Charlton, he had the financial muscle (tick in the right box). In terms of stated aims, they surely were to progress to the Premier League (tick in the right box for your "stated aims" - nothing can be guaranteed).

    Not therefore sure how the FA could judge at that stage that RD would fail the "fit and proper" criteria (whatever that is).
    This is how things would work in Stig's world:

    - Prospective owner's must have undertaken an official 'football club ownership' course. Here they would be given clear guidance on the culture, history and traditions of the game. They'd also be given the facts about how many owners make/lose money from the game. There would be a mandatory test at the end of the course, failing this would preclude club ownership.
    - Professional qualifications in place for CEOs and board members. No qualification, no job. This wouldn't just be a one-off test to pass, but there would be a strong element of ongoing development and monitoring against agreed professional competencies and ethics.
    - The FA to run a club-monitoring scheme. Officials to meet with owners and officials on an annual basis to renew franchise to league. There would be a procedure in place enabling immediate intervention where there is cause for concern.
    - All owners to pay a returnable deposit (a hefty amount based on club value). Any retained deposits to be used for the good of any clubs damaged by poor ownership.
    - Requirement for all transfer fees including all associated payments (to agents, players and intermediaries) to be published within one year of registration. This to be done at an individual transfer level.
    - All clubs to publish an official list of everyone engaged in football management, training or scouting. This to include name, position, reporting line, qualifications, responsibilities. Mandatory training for people in all such positions.
    - Scheme to protect whistle-blowers who identify bad ownership/management practice.
    - Fan engagement policy in place with every club required to hold scheduled meetings with agreed supporter groups (Trusts).
    - Requirement for owners to attend a certain number of games per season. Fines for non compliance.

    I realise that there will be significant legal hurdles to much of this and that there's unlikely to be the will for this to happen, either from within the FA or from amongst owners. But I am convinced that this is the sort of direction we ought to head in, if we want to rid our game of rogue owners.
  • PeterGage said:

    PeterGage said:

    addick05 said:

    How some of these owners pass a 'fit for purpose' test is beyond me. I think that prospective owners - even of they prove financial stability - should be made to state their aims for the intended club and sign a legally binding agreement to this end and if they deviate from this the FA or EFL should have power to step in. Course, it will never happen as we all know these organisations are only in it for the money and really couldn't give a toss about clubs like us and Blackpool.

    Genuine question.

    I assume this is reference to the way RD runs Charlton. When he bought Charlton, he had the financial muscle (tick in the right box). In terms of stated aims, they surely were to progress to the Premier League (tick in the right box for your "stated aims" - nothing can be guaranteed).

    Not therefore sure how the FA could judge at that stage that RD would fail the "fit and proper" criteria (whatever that is).
    That is a very good point, unfortunately. Indeed if anyone could be bothered to conduct a review of CL opinions in the first few months of the RD reign, some quite noisy Lifers would have red faces.

    In fact other Trusts, led by Blackburn, have worked out that the entire regulatory environment of football (basically non-existent) is the problem and they are bringing together a group which will try to develop a frame work for a more effective regulatory system.

    Footnote; @Dippenhall . So there is a place for regulation in a 'free" market? Good man. Definitely a closet Lib Dem there, once you have finally realised what a disaster Brexit is going to be :-)

    Retrospective "fit and proper" test? Surely not feasible. And your retrospective test, by your words, is based upon CL opinions; again, surely not.
    Sorry? I don't think I have suggested any of that. The proposal from Blackburn's Trust is

    "sharing ideas on the development of regulation that protects clubs and fans from bad ownership"

    I am puzzled by your aggressive response to a comment which complimented you on making a very good point. No wonder English fans have a poor record of collaborative activity to protect and improve the game they all profess to care about so much.
  • PeterGage said:

    PeterGage said:

    addick05 said:

    How some of these owners pass a 'fit for purpose' test is beyond me. I think that prospective owners - even of they prove financial stability - should be made to state their aims for the intended club and sign a legally binding agreement to this end and if they deviate from this the FA or EFL should have power to step in. Course, it will never happen as we all know these organisations are only in it for the money and really couldn't give a toss about clubs like us and Blackpool.

    Genuine question.

    I assume this is reference to the way RD runs Charlton. When he bought Charlton, he had the financial muscle (tick in the right box). In terms of stated aims, they surely were to progress to the Premier League (tick in the right box for your "stated aims" - nothing can be guaranteed).

    Not therefore sure how the FA could judge at that stage that RD would fail the "fit and proper" criteria (whatever that is).
    That is a very good point, unfortunately. Indeed if anyone could be bothered to conduct a review of CL opinions in the first few months of the RD reign, some quite noisy Lifers would have red faces.

    In fact other Trusts, led by Blackburn, have worked out that the entire regulatory environment of football (basically non-existent) is the problem and they are bringing together a group which will try to develop a frame work for a more effective regulatory system.

    Footnote; @Dippenhall . So there is a place for regulation in a 'free" market? Good man. Definitely a closet Lib Dem there, once you have finally realised what a disaster Brexit is going to be :-)

    Retrospective "fit and proper" test? Surely not feasible. And your retrospective test, by your words, is based upon CL opinions; again, surely not.
    Sorry? I don't think I have suggested any of that. The proposal from Blackburn's Trust is

    "sharing ideas on the development of regulation that protects clubs and fans from bad ownership"

    I am puzzled by your aggressive response to a comment which complimented you on making a very good point. No wonder English fans have a poor record of collaborative activity to protect and improve the game they all profess to care about so much.
    Aggressive? Really? I was simply pushing the general point to the last couple of comments about retrospective "Fit and proper" tests. I can only assume that "aggressive" has a different meaning or emphasise our respective countries. Was it Mark Twain who said something like "The British and Americans are divided by a common language".

    Anyway, enjoy the rest of your day.
  • PeterGage said:

    PeterGage said:

    PeterGage said:

    addick05 said:

    How some of these owners pass a 'fit for purpose' test is beyond me. I think that prospective owners - even of they prove financial stability - should be made to state their aims for the intended club and sign a legally binding agreement to this end and if they deviate from this the FA or EFL should have power to step in. Course, it will never happen as we all know these organisations are only in it for the money and really couldn't give a toss about clubs like us and Blackpool.

    Genuine question.

    I assume this is reference to the way RD runs Charlton. When he bought Charlton, he had the financial muscle (tick in the right box). In terms of stated aims, they surely were to progress to the Premier League (tick in the right box for your "stated aims" - nothing can be guaranteed).

    Not therefore sure how the FA could judge at that stage that RD would fail the "fit and proper" criteria (whatever that is).
    That is a very good point, unfortunately. Indeed if anyone could be bothered to conduct a review of CL opinions in the first few months of the RD reign, some quite noisy Lifers would have red faces.

    In fact other Trusts, led by Blackburn, have worked out that the entire regulatory environment of football (basically non-existent) is the problem and they are bringing together a group which will try to develop a frame work for a more effective regulatory system.

    Footnote; @Dippenhall . So there is a place for regulation in a 'free" market? Good man. Definitely a closet Lib Dem there, once you have finally realised what a disaster Brexit is going to be :-)

    Retrospective "fit and proper" test? Surely not feasible. And your retrospective test, by your words, is based upon CL opinions; again, surely not.
    Sorry? I don't think I have suggested any of that. The proposal from Blackburn's Trust is

    "sharing ideas on the development of regulation that protects clubs and fans from bad ownership"

    I am puzzled by your aggressive response to a comment which complimented you on making a very good point. No wonder English fans have a poor record of collaborative activity to protect and improve the game they all profess to care about so much.
    Aggressive? Really? I was simply pushing the general point to the last couple of comments about retrospective "Fit and proper" tests. I can only assume that "aggressive" has a different meaning or emphasise our respective countries. Was it Mark Twain who said something like "The British and Americans are divided by a common language".

    Anyway, enjoy the rest of your day.
    Again, where did I propose a retrospective fit and proper person test? I didn't, did I? And I come from Eltham by the way, so don't make allowances for my language deficiencies, they are all home grown. I have no problem fielding trenchant criticism, dish it out, and you should expect to take it, is my motto on here, but I think it's reasonable to expect people to at least accurately direct their criticism.
  • @PragueAddick and @PeterGage

    this is getting a bit unique now guys...
  • PeterGage said:

    PeterGage said:

    PeterGage said:

    addick05 said:

    How some of these owners pass a 'fit for purpose' test is beyond me. I think that prospective owners - even of they prove financial stability - should be made to state their aims for the intended club and sign a legally binding agreement to this end and if they deviate from this the FA or EFL should have power to step in. Course, it will never happen as we all know these organisations are only in it for the money and really couldn't give a toss about clubs like us and Blackpool.

    Genuine question.

    I assume this is reference to the way RD runs Charlton. When he bought Charlton, he had the financial muscle (tick in the right box). In terms of stated aims, they surely were to progress to the Premier League (tick in the right box for your "stated aims" - nothing can be guaranteed).

    Not therefore sure how the FA could judge at that stage that RD would fail the "fit and proper" criteria (whatever that is).
    That is a very good point, unfortunately. Indeed if anyone could be bothered to conduct a review of CL opinions in the first few months of the RD reign, some quite noisy Lifers would have red faces.

    In fact other Trusts, led by Blackburn, have worked out that the entire regulatory environment of football (basically non-existent) is the problem and they are bringing together a group which will try to develop a frame work for a more effective regulatory system.

    Footnote; @Dippenhall . So there is a place for regulation in a 'free" market? Good man. Definitely a closet Lib Dem there, once you have finally realised what a disaster Brexit is going to be :-)

    Retrospective "fit and proper" test? Surely not feasible. And your retrospective test, by your words, is based upon CL opinions; again, surely not.
    Sorry? I don't think I have suggested any of that. The proposal from Blackburn's Trust is

    "sharing ideas on the development of regulation that protects clubs and fans from bad ownership"

    I am puzzled by your aggressive response to a comment which complimented you on making a very good point. No wonder English fans have a poor record of collaborative activity to protect and improve the game they all profess to care about so much.
    Aggressive? Really? I was simply pushing the general point to the last couple of comments about retrospective "Fit and proper" tests. I can only assume that "aggressive" has a different meaning or emphasise our respective countries. Was it Mark Twain who said something like "The British and Americans are divided by a common language".

    Anyway, enjoy the rest of your day.
    Again, where did I propose a retrospective fit and proper person test? I didn't, did I? And I come from Eltham by the way, so don't make allowances for my language deficiencies, they are all home grown. I have no problem fielding trenchant criticism, dish it out, and you should expect to take it, is my motto on here, but I think it's reasonable to expect people to at least accurately direct their criticism.
    I didn't specifically state that you were using the word "retrospective". I used it when iainment first posted on the subject of "fit and proper". nor did I mention any "language deficiencies".

    From my perspective, this exchange of views has run it's course and I shant comment further.
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  • Stig said:

    PeterGage said:

    addick05 said:

    How some of these owners pass a 'fit for purpose' test is beyond me. I think that prospective owners - even of they prove financial stability - should be made to state their aims for the intended club and sign a legally binding agreement to this end and if they deviate from this the FA or EFL should have power to step in. Course, it will never happen as we all know these organisations are only in it for the money and really couldn't give a toss about clubs like us and Blackpool.

    Genuine question.

    I assume this is reference to the way RD runs Charlton. When he bought Charlton, he had the financial muscle (tick in the right box). In terms of stated aims, they surely were to progress to the Premier League (tick in the right box for your "stated aims" - nothing can be guaranteed).

    Not therefore sure how the FA could judge at that stage that RD would fail the "fit and proper" criteria (whatever that is).
    This is how things would work in Stig's world:

    - Prospective owner's must have undertaken an official 'football club ownership' course. Here they would be given clear guidance on the culture, history and traditions of the game. They'd also be given the facts about how many owners make/lose money from the game. There would be a mandatory test at the end of the course, failing this would preclude club ownership.
    - Professional qualifications in place for CEOs and board members. No qualification, no job. This wouldn't just be a one-off test to pass, but there would be a strong element of ongoing development and monitoring against agreed professional competencies and ethics.
    - The FA to run a club-monitoring scheme. Officials to meet with owners and officials on an annual basis to renew franchise to league. There would be a procedure in place enabling immediate intervention where there is cause for concern.
    - All owners to pay a returnable deposit (a hefty amount based on club value). Any retained deposits to be used for the good of any clubs damaged by poor ownership.
    - Requirement for all transfer fees including all associated payments (to agents, players and intermediaries) to be published within one year of registration. This to be done at an individual transfer level.
    - All clubs to publish an official list of everyone engaged in football management, training or scouting. This to include name, position, reporting line, qualifications, responsibilities. Mandatory training for people in all such positions.
    - Scheme to protect whistle-blowers who identify bad ownership/management practice.
    - Fan engagement policy in place with every club required to hold scheduled meetings with agreed supporter groups (Trusts).
    - Requirement for owners to attend a certain number of games per season. Fines for non compliance.

    I realise that there will be significant legal hurdles to much of this and that there's unlikely to be the will for this to happen, either from within the FA or from amongst owners. But I am convinced that this is the sort of direction we ought to head in, if we want to rid our game of rogue owners.
    I agree wholeheartedly with your post, and would love to see something similar implemented.

    The real barrier to implementing this, in my mind, is the concept of ownership. Now I appreciate that everything is owned, whether we like it or not; companies, properties and services generally have an owner. However, once someone owns something - what can you do if they're abusing it?

    For instance, say I bought a car - other people would like that car, but would they have any right to criticise me if I took a sledgehammer to it one day? Not really. Now a football club isn't like a car or company, or any other form of property really, but one thing that has become apparent over the course of the last 2 years is that not everyone grasps this. (i.e Katrien and her comments about a restaurant, and having to respect the wishes of the shareholder)

    What would you do if an owner doesn't comply with those requirements? Do you close the club? Do you fine it? Do you force them to sell, or simply confiscate the club? What if no one wants to buy the club?

    I think something like Germany's rule regarding ownership, which ensures there will also be alternative shareholders available to take the reigns, in addition to Stig's suggestions would be ideal. Unfortunately, I can't ever imagine the FA rocking the boat with regards to the money men involved with the sport.

    The biggest priority for football in the UK is the overhaul of the FA. Only then can there be real progress and true supporter representation at the highest level.
  • What a shit argument @cabbles ffs
  • CAFCsayer said:

    iainment said:

    addick05 said:

    How some of these owners pass a 'fit for purpose' test is beyond me. I think that prospective owners - even of they prove financial stability - should be made to state their aims for the intended club and sign a legally binding agreement to this end and if they deviate from this the FA or EFL should have power to step in. Course, it will never happen as we all know these organisations are only in it for the money and really couldn't give a toss about clubs like us and Blackpool.

    Are you 5 years old?
    Is there any need to be a condescending bellend?
    He shags cats
  • CAFCsayer said:

    iainment said:

    addick05 said:

    How some of these owners pass a 'fit for purpose' test is beyond me. I think that prospective owners - even of they prove financial stability - should be made to state their aims for the intended club and sign a legally binding agreement to this end and if they deviate from this the FA or EFL should have power to step in. Course, it will never happen as we all know these organisations are only in it for the money and really couldn't give a toss about clubs like us and Blackpool.

    Are you 5 years old?
    Is there any need to be a condescending bellend?
    He shags cats
    Hahaha
  • Good points LuckyReds. I agree that the notion of 'ownership' is a problem. I see where you're going with your sledgehammer/car analogy, though at least with cars there is some defence against owner indifference/recklessness/malevolence. An owner may be free to modify their car even if those modifications include several sledgehammer sized dents, but they are still legally required to keep it in roadworthy condition and they have to take an annual MoT test to prove that it is. Perhaps clubs should have an annual MoT test against a set of necessary criteria - leaking 3000+ season ticket holders in one season would be a surefire failure.

    Alternative shareholders looks like a good idea, as for sanctions I'd guess some sort of fine though I must admit I do find the confiscation idea very appealing at the moment :wink:

    Sadly whatever ideas we come up with as supporters, I can't see the footballing authorities doing anything. They are all to easily seduced by people with huge bank balances and no sense of responsibility.
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