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Are we really just 1.5% of his finances?

As I understand his personal wealth amounts to around £500 mill. Last season he was pumping 1 mill at month to keep the club going, and now we are in League 1 that probably means he will be putting in even more. So over the course of a season he burns through £40-50mill just keeping us running.

Player sales have possibly reduced that somewhat, but at the same time we have brought in a few in that were paid for.

If we dont go up this season, and theres no Lookmans to sell on to cover the even bigger losses surely he will be looking a LOT more then 1.5%.
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Comments

  • Of course not, this is another poxy lie. If his £50m 'investment' in Charlton was 1.5% of his total assets he would be worth about 3 trillion quid. Not even Bill Gates has that much money!

    I would rather he sell now but if he won't, I hope he loses money until his eyes bleed.
  • Missed It said:

    Of course not, this is another poxy lie. If his £50m 'investment' in Charlton was 1.5% of his total assets he would be worth about 3 trillion quid. Not even Bill Gates has that much money!

    I would rather he sell now but if he won't, I hope he loses money until his eyes bleed.

    I think he will see it in turnover terms - ie about £12m.

    £12,000,000 = 1.5%
    £800,000,000 = 100%

    RDs estimated worth = 1 billion euros (which is about £800m).
  • CAFCTrev said:

    As I understand his personal wealth amounts to around £500 mill. Last season he was pumping 1 mill at month to keep the club going, and now we are in League 1 that probably means he will be putting in even more. So over the course of a season he burns through £40-50mill just keeping us running.

    Player sales have possibly reduced that somewhat, but at the same time we have brought in a few in that were paid for.

    If we dont go up this season, and theres no Lookmans to sell on to cover the even bigger losses surely he will be looking a LOT more then 1.5%.

    There is no way RD is pumping £40-£50 million a year into the club
  • Once his player factory is working properly, which it is probably quite close to now with Lookman and Konsa likely to bring in big bucks in Jan and pay for a season or two - we will be on our way to becoming that small break-even 1.5% part of his empire churning out players with a couple of thousand disgruntled fans not to worry about.
  • edited October 2016
    Playing devils advocate. Melexis has a turnover of 400 million euros last year. Our turnover was in region of 16 million euros, or 4%. I don't know what other business interests RD has beyond Melexis, but it could actually be possible to see how 1.5% isn't that far off, especially as our turnover is down and apparently Melexis' is up this year.

    Of course that is an incredibly short sighted way of looking at it. Melexis is ticking along nicely, producing massive revenues and profits, so doesn't need much attention at all, whilst Charlton is losing money, revenues are down and direct involvement is demanded to reverse it's fortunes.
  • edited October 2016
    That would be a very strange way of looking at it.

    If you had £50,000 invested in something earning you 10% a year, ie £5,000; and another £50,000 in a savings account earning you .1%, ie £50.

    What proportion of your "empire" would you say was the savings. To me the only sensible answer is 50% ie 50% of your total assets of £100,000.
    To say it is less than 1% (£50 out of £5,050) and therefore is only worth 1% of your attention would be plain daft.
  • redman said:

    That would be a very strange way of looking at it.

    If you had £50,000 invested in something earning you 10% a year, ie £5,000; and another £50,000 in a savings account earning you .1%, ie £50.

    What proportion of your "empire" would you say was the savings. To me the only sensible answer is 50% ie 50% of your total assets of £100,000.
    To say it is less than 1% (£50 out of £5,050) and therefore is only worth 1% of your attention would be plain daft.

    I agree completely, but I think at this stage we can all agree that both the 1.5% statemtent and RD in general is a bit daft. I was just playing with figures to see what warped internal logic he could use to arrive at 1.5%.
  • Playing devils advocate. Melexis has a turnover of 400 million euros last year. Our turnover was in region of 16 million euros, or 4%. I don't know what other business interests RD has beyond Melexis, but it could actually be possible to see how 1.5% isn't that far off, especially as our turnover is down and apparently Melexis' is up this year.

    Of course that is an incredibly short sighted way of looking at it. Melexis is ticking along nicely, producing massive revenues and profits, so doesn't need much attention at all, whilst Charlton is losing money, revenues are down and direct involvement is demanded to reverse it's fortunes.

    Good post. However, and I am criticising the "1.5%" statement here, it is not at all clear how RD separates out the Charlton element from the rest of Staprix. The Trust is currently working on a detailed examination of Staprix accounts (with help from the Standard Socios). I won't give detailed figures before we are sure of our facts, but the initial amount he seems to have put in to Staprix, to get it going, is surprisingly large.

    It is also not clear what is really meant when people say RD is "worth xxx amount". Does it include the value of his personal stake in Melexis? We tend to assume not. In which case RD has staked a good deal more than 1.5% of his personal fortune on his football venture. How is it going? Well, the Standard guys think he exited Standard with a profit for himself, (while leaving behind a club in a worse state than when he acquired it). What is for sure is that compared with Melexis it is nothing to boast about to his fellow "top" Belgian business counterparts.

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  • not so much on this site but on another forum in the last couple of days quotes saying that the Regime has made some initial mistakes but they do care for the club. Surely after hearing Roland do a Mullary, (that's all your worth to me) they must realise that in no way what so ever he gives two shits about us.
  • in terms of annual losses yes, in terms of money owed to him it between 7% and 8% at the moment of his estimated wealth.
  • Irrespective of the accuracy of this figure or not the 1.5% comment was deliberately made to belittle those with an emotional attachment to the club.

    Apologies if this has already been aired previously but the 1.5% is such a harmful and dismissive comment it almost beggars belief. The unstated undertone is that RD considers himself to have far more important matters to attend to in his everyday business life than the 'minor' portfolio holdings at Charlton and that we (the fans) should recognise this--- illustrating yet again that he has no concept at all of what it actually means and what is entailed in being a fan rather than merely paying for a service (i.e. being a customer).

    IMO it demonstrates graphically that as far as he is concerned nothing has changed and that Miere's statement in Dublin over a year ago that we (the customers) would have to get used to the way in which the major shareholder runs the club is as true now as it was then.

    So, if any haven't yet got used to it (which I would venture is now the majority) then it seems that Duchatelet, and by extension Meire, are content that they should follow the advice of one of their own players (Johnson) and fuck off.

    Johnson has been seconded to the Communications department I heard.....
  • I think he sees Charlton as one of those fringe bets you might dabble a couple of quid on, with an outside chance it might come in. If it doesn't, well not too much harm done. But just a bet that might come good.
    You know, like Charlton to beat Crawley at home @ 200/1 that sort of thing.
  • edited October 2016

    Playing devils advocate. Melexis has a turnover of 400 million euros last year. Our turnover was in region of 16 million euros, or 4%. I don't know what other business interests RD has beyond Melexis, but it could actually be possible to see how 1.5% isn't that far off, especially as our turnover is down and apparently Melexis' is up this year.

    Of course that is an incredibly short sighted way of looking at it. Melexis is ticking along nicely, producing massive revenues and profits, so doesn't need much attention at all, whilst Charlton is losing money, revenues are down and direct involvement is demanded to reverse it's fortunes.

    Good post. However, and I am criticising the "1.5%" statement here, it is not at all clear how RD separates out the Charlton element from the rest of Staprix. The Trust is currently working on a detailed examination of Staprix accounts (with help from the Standard Socios). I won't give detailed figures before we are sure of our facts, but the initial amount he seems to have put in to Staprix, to get it going, is surprisingly large.

    It is also not clear what is really meant when people say RD is "worth xxx amount". Does it include the value of his personal stake in Melexis? We tend to assume not. In which case RD has staked a good deal more than 1.5% of his personal fortune on his football venture. How is it going? Well, the Standard guys think he exited Standard with a profit for himself, (while leaving behind a club in a worse state than when he acquired it). What is for sure is that compared with Melexis it is nothing to boast about to his fellow "top" Belgian business counterparts.

    Prague, the initial amount was quite a long time before his adventures in football, and was also with the other shareholder; the socialist film maker.

    I don't get the impression that Staprix was intended for football. I cant remember if I posted the documents back in Feb/March, they were just the bog standards accounts and company information though, I didn't try and dig in to them as I know very little about accounting - but the presence of another individual and quite an early date of incorporation did pique my interest.
  • edited October 2016
    He does have major ownership in a raft of companies, not just Melexis. Another big one is X-Fab, the one with HQ in Erfurt, near Jena, in Germany. Those are both PLCs, and through another holding company (definitely not Staprix), he has over 50% of shares in both of those, although that doesn't mean he can't also have a chunk of shares held personally. He is also non-executive President of Melexis and other bits of his empire, so they take up a fair amount of his time. Someone on here also referred to him having some media industry ownership, but I don't know what that amounts to. I believe he also owns at least one not-for-profit company that is his political party - for what it's worth.

    It is conceivable that the current worth of Charlton really is a small percentage of all the empire in which he has a controlling interest. If you take his other personal wealth and the gross worth of the entities in his empire as £1.2 billion (Melexis alone is worth over £400 million, iirc), he could be placing a net value of £18 million on Charlton. The 1.5% maths would then work.

    EDIT: the holding company for the electronics empire is called Xtrion NV.
  • edited October 2016

    Playing devils advocate. Melexis has a turnover of 400 million euros last year. Our turnover was in region of 16 million euros, or 4%. I don't know what other business interests RD has beyond Melexis, but it could actually be possible to see how 1.5% isn't that far off, especially as our turnover is down and apparently Melexis' is up this year.

    Of course that is an incredibly short sighted way of looking at it. Melexis is ticking along nicely, producing massive revenues and profits, so doesn't need much attention at all, whilst Charlton is losing money, revenues are down and direct involvement is demanded to reverse it's fortunes.

    Good post. However, and I am criticising the "1.5%" statement here, it is not at all clear how RD separates out the Charlton element from the rest of Staprix. The Trust is currently working on a detailed examination of Staprix accounts (with help from the Standard Socios). I won't give detailed figures before we are sure of our facts, but the initial amount he seems to have put in to Staprix, to get it going, is surprisingly large.

    It is also not clear what is really meant when people say RD is "worth xxx amount". Does it include the value of his personal stake in Melexis? We tend to assume not. In which case RD has staked a good deal more than 1.5% of his personal fortune on his football venture. How is it going? Well, the Standard guys think he exited Standard with a profit for himself, (while leaving behind a club in a worse state than when he acquired it). What is for sure is that compared with Melexis it is nothing to boast about to his fellow "top" Belgian business counterparts.

    The "standard ways" to determine net worth for famous people is not exactly scientific. It seems to generally follow the project value of assets and holdings. Key word in that is projection.

    When RD said the 1.5% comment, I assumed he was referring to turnover. So *if* Strapix is "worth" 800m, they'll pressumably have far more in turnover. Or actually, I can't even say that for certain as some value net income at revenue or gross profit.

    Very curious to see what you come up with Prague.
  • The key difference between Melexis and Charlton, regardless of the relative %s of his net worth that they represent, is that the former increases his wealth (through dividends and capital gains) whilst the latter decreases it (via continual cash injections [referred to as debt but effectively equity]).

    To use an analogy, if your two main assets are a mortgage-free new build house which cost £225,000 and a car which cost £25,000, the car only represents 10% of your wealth. However if nothing goes wrong in the house (because it's brand new) but the car guzzles petrol and keeps conking out, then the car will become the much bigger problem from a cash flow perspective.
  • The key difference between Melexis and Charlton, regardless of the relative %s of his net worth that they represent, is that the former increases his wealth (through dividends and capital gains) whilst the latter decreases it (via continual cash injections [referred to as debt but effectively equity]).

    To use an analogy, if your two main assets are a mortgage-free new build house which cost £225,000 and a car which cost £25,000, the car only represents 10% of your wealth. However if nothing goes wrong in the house (because it's brand new) but the car guzzles petrol and keeps conking out, then the car will become the much bigger problem from a cash flow perspective.

    Isn't that the point where you get someone to crash your car into a brick wall and then put in an insurance claim? Not that that has any relevance to CAFC.
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  • I think it is important to state that we have established beyond reasonable doubt that Staprix is financially entirely separate to any of his other businesses. He put a large amount in, but we cannot see evidence that he now does this on a regular basis to cover further losses. A bit like some disciplined gamblers who put a certain amount into an account, but then it can only run on winnings from there on in. We don't yet know, but think it is likely, that RD took his money out of Standard via Staprix. So possibly - but who can read this brilliant mind - he may be feeling chipper because so far his profit from the Standard adventure outweigh his losses at Charlton.
  • edited October 2016
    I think your key words there Prague are 'so far', it's what happens next after his 'gambling' pot has run dry? Time to call it a Day? Let's hope so.
  • edited October 2016
    I'm sure it would be interesting to know more about how Staprix operates and what people it employs. For example:

    - when RD took money out of Standard Liege, was that transferred to Staprix's bank balance? After all, it looks like it may have helped pay for the purchase of other clubs.

    - when RD lends money to CAFC, Carl Zeiss Jena, etc, does that take the form of loans from Staprix's account and the interest go there?

    - it seems that Driesen was never on the Standard Liege payroll or the CAFC payroll. Does that mean he's an employee of Staprix? Ditto Fraeye while he was scouting for RD and not on the CAFC payroll? Or Luzon during the period between his removal from the firing line at Standard and his being sent to Charlton, when he was acting as a consultant elsewhere in the empire, I believe? Or are many of RD's henchmen and women directly employed by Staprix on a permanent basis?

    - have any of the players been directly contracted to Staprix? This might constitute third party ownership by our rules, but not be seen as an issue elsewhere in Europe. The name Watt comes to mind.
  • Irrespective of the accuracy of this figure or not the 1.5% comment was deliberately made to belittle those with an emotional attachment to the club.

    Apologies if this has already been aired previously but the 1.5% is such a harmful and dismissive comment it almost beggars belief. The unstated undertone is that RD considers himself to have far more important matters to attend to in his everyday business life than the 'minor' portfolio holdings at Charlton and that we (the fans) should recognise this--- illustrating yet again that he has no concept at all of what it actually means and what is entailed in being a fan rather than merely paying for a service (i.e. being a customer).

    IMO it demonstrates graphically that as far as he is concerned nothing has changed and that Miere's statement in Dublin over a year ago that we (the customers) would have to get used to the way in which the major shareholder runs the club is as true now as it was then.

    So, if any haven't yet got used to it (which I would venture is now the majority) then it seems that Duchatelet, and by extension Meire, are content that they should follow the advice of one of their own players (Johnson) and fuck off.

    This.
  • Charlton fans 1.5% investment 100% pain in the ass

    There is a Tshirt there surly
  • For me the 1.5% mark was deliberately chosen to be just under 2%.

    It could be based on virtually any metric in order to make it correct, pick your metric (turnover, equity, value) and there is enough judgement to get to the number you first thought of.

    It's a deliberately antagonistic comment.

    You are worth naff all to me, and I don't really give a stuff (je m'en fou). You get all the attention from me you deserve and you should feel lucky. You have my delegates looking after your interests and, because I have selected them, they will come good despite the mistakes we may have made which we have learned from.
  • As an accountant, I would give my left bollock to work for RD... I would love to untangle everything and see what is going on with out club. Unfortunately I'm stuck shifting baby food, but who knows what the future holds, I might be shifting players for the cost of a sachet of baby food soon!

    Katrien, my email begging for a job is on it's way.
  • edited November 2016
    For the record, he added another company, Altis [https://www.altissemiconductor.com/en/index.php ], to his electronics empire, as reported last week. Altis HQ is on the southern outskirts of Paris. Perhaps he's thinking of adding PSG to the network?

    A quick Google job on one article about it:

    "Duchâtelet and his business partners, the couple Rudi De Winter and Françoise Chombar [the CEOs of X-Fab and Melexis, respectively], went shopping in the French winter sales. Through their company X-Fab, they have bought their French competitor, Altis. Cost: 9.2 million. That's no money, if you know Altis represents a turnover of 100 million euros with 965 employees. But the purchase is not so cheap. X-Fab undertakes to invest 60 million euros in the company, half immediately and the balance within four years. And the next five years must be at least 800 workers remain active in Altis.

    Altis is like X-Fab, a producer of semiconductors. The French company was acquired in 2010 by the French Algerian Yazid Sabeg, head of the French high-tech company CS and ever Minister for Equal Opportunities under President Sarkozy. He thereby gained the support of the French industrialist Serge Dassault and the Qatari real estate fund Qatari Diar. But Altis was never profitable. This summer, the group was placed under judicial administration. Now strokes Duchâtelet and its partners there to win in the business from under the nose of two Chinese competitors who also were on Vinkenslag. The acquisition was effective on October 1, but was only now vented by Het Belang van Limburg. X-FAB is headquartered in Sint-Truiden. Both companies are highly complementary. X-Fab goes essentially to an increase in capacity. In 2018 Altis must be profitable again."

    ---

    Further evidence that he's not slowing down yet, dagnabbit.
  • I've said it before on another thread and I'll say it again. Whatever he has spent/is spending on Charlton is less than he gets by way of dividend on his Melexis shares, alone, every year. He's still getting richer but at a slower pace.
  • So is he the UBO of Charlton or are there others down the line that mean his exposure is diluted down to 1.5% ?
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