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How to count attendances...

I can understand counting Season Ticket holders in the attendance numbers, even if they aren't at the match, as at least the seat has been sold. Most clubs count attendances this way.

With comps, there's no income, so it cannot make sense to to include them in attendance numbers unless the ticket is actually used. Otherwise you are effectively just making up the attendance numbers.

Are there FA/Football League rules on this, as the published attendance figure are used, and could sway a sponsor (or even a player) to one club rather than another?

Comments

  • Would imagine that advertisers in the ground would be ticked off if attendances were way below expectations.
  • It is tickets issued, really not that hard to comprehend
  • It is tickets issued, really not that hard to comprehend

    Exactly. They could all turn up.

    Obviously that's unlikely as most of the freebies were probably in the bin come kick off, but they can't sell the ticket again.
  • It is tickets issued, really not that hard to comprehend

    But by that logic, if there are no season ticket sales, you could claim any attendance number you'd like even with no income whatsoever, and even if nobody actually turned up!

    Just go out on the street hand out 5000 tickets, tell them they don't need to actually come to the match, and stick 5000 on the attendance.
  • That's more or less what they do already, isn't it?

    Hand out 1000 tickets to schools and voila, there's a grand on the attendance. Doesn't matter that the schools are still shut!
  • As we have digital turnstiles now it isn't hard for them to get the true number.

    Don't kid yourself like they are ;)
  • C4FC4L1f3 said:

    As we have digital turnstiles now it isn't hard for them to get the true number.

    Don't kid yourself like they are ;)

    True. In the past it wasn't possible to tell accurately to what extent the shortfall was absent season tickets or unused comps. Both were substantial factors. To get any idea you had to count the stubs, which was rarely done and couldn't really have been before the gate is declared.
  • I thought there was a counter behind each turnstile (Swear I saw an official looking at it years ago) which adds up each time they open... If thats the case just add them up from each turnstile, if its not the case then surely just add it.

    As surely come the FA Cup we dont want to say we've got 20,000 fans there and for there only to be half as it would mean we've got to give the visiting side more in terms of gate receipts?
  • Surely to have a valid Health & Safety certificate the club knows how many people are inside the ground during the match and therefore how many need evacuating in case of emergency?

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  • Most numbers you see these days are just made up anyway.

    A good rule is to simply ignore any figures reported in a newspaper or on TV!
  • edited August 2016

    I thought there was a counter behind each turnstile (Swear I saw an official looking at it years ago) which adds up each time they open... If thats the case just add them up from each turnstile, if its not the case then surely just add it.

    As surely come the FA Cup we dont want to say we've got 20,000 fans there and for there only to be half as it would mean we've got to give the visiting side more in terms of gate receipts?

    The club has had a central count for as long as I can remember, for safety reasons (hence I have a good idea of the historic shortfall), but all clubs to my knowledge declare tickets issued rather than the number of people in the ground. A few declare the "turnstile count" too, or have in the past.

    There are few comps issued for FA Cup matches because the rules make the cost prohibitive and there are no season tickets, so those gates tend to be accurate. The vast majority of people who buy a match ticket turn up, although Football for a Fiver always has a large discrepancy because of the low cash value of the tickets, i.e. people buy too many or change their minds because the cost is so low.

    For similar reasons, the shortfall in season tickets used is larger than average at The Valley. That is not (just) about disaffection and it is very likely 20 per cent or more of season tickets were not used last night, probably more.

  • As surely come the FA Cup we dont want to say we've got 20,000 fans there and for there only to be half as it would mean we've got to give the visiting side more in terms of gate receipts?

    Gate receipts are gate receipts though so manipulating the attendance doesn't change the amount of money that actually comes through the door.

    Of course you would expect higher gate receipts the higher the crowd, but you can only divide up the cash that has come in.
  • Off_it said:


    As surely come the FA Cup we dont want to say we've got 20,000 fans there and for there only to be half as it would mean we've got to give the visiting side more in terms of gate receipts?

    Gate receipts are gate receipts though so manipulating the attendance doesn't change the amount of money that actually comes through the door.

    Of course you would expect higher gate receipts the higher the crowd, but you can only divide up the cash that has come in.
    Yes, but the FA (and the League) charge clubs to issue comps above a minimum number for cup games as if they were full-price tickets, i.e. they take a share of the notional revenue and allocate it to the pool and the away club. So in practice they are not issued in any numbers.
  • I thought there was a counter behind each turnstile (Swear I saw an official looking at it years ago) which adds up each time they open... If thats the case just add them up from each turnstile, if its not the case then surely just add it.

    As surely come the FA Cup we dont want to say we've got 20,000 fans there and for there only to be half as it would mean we've got to give the visiting side more in terms of gate receipts?

    The club has had a central count for as long as I can remember, for safety reasons (hence I have a good idea of the historic shortfall), but all clubs to my knowledge declare tickets issued rather than the number of people in the ground. A few declare the "turnstile count" too, or have in the past.

    There are few comps issued for FA Cup matches because the rules make the cost prohibitive and there are no season tickets, so those gates tend to be accurate. The vast majority of people who buy a match ticket turn up, although Football for a Fiver always has a large discrepancy because of the low cash value of the tickets, i.e. people buy too many or change their minds because the cost is so low.

    For similar reasons, the shortfall in season tickets used is larger than average at The Valley. That is not (just) about disaffection and it is very likely 20 per cent or more of season tickets were not used last night, probably more.
    I imagine the shortfall in ST attendance last night was lower than it was towards the end of last season, as a number of people who can't/won't go to every game will just buy match tickets this season rather than a ST, especially with the empty spaces making it easy to sit in your favourite seat when required!
  • I thought there was a counter behind each turnstile (Swear I saw an official looking at it years ago) which adds up each time they open... If thats the case just add them up from each turnstile, if its not the case then surely just add it.

    As surely come the FA Cup we dont want to say we've got 20,000 fans there and for there only to be half as it would mean we've got to give the visiting side more in terms of gate receipts?

    The club has had a central count for as long as I can remember, for safety reasons (hence I have a good idea of the historic shortfall), but all clubs to my knowledge declare tickets issued rather than the number of people in the ground. A few declare the "turnstile count" too, or have in the past.

    There are few comps issued for FA Cup matches because the rules make the cost prohibitive and there are no season tickets, so those gates tend to be accurate. The vast majority of people who buy a match ticket turn up, although Football for a Fiver always has a large discrepancy because of the low cash value of the tickets, i.e. people buy too many or change their minds because the cost is so low.

    For similar reasons, the shortfall in season tickets used is larger than average at The Valley. That is not (just) about disaffection and it is very likely 20 per cent or more of season tickets were not used last night, probably more.
    I imagine the shortfall in ST attendance last night was lower than it was towards the end of last season, as a number of people who can't/won't go to every game will just buy match tickets this season rather than a ST, especially with the empty spaces making it easy to sit in your favourite seat when required!
    There was not many people paying last night outside of season ticket holders.
  • Seeing as I am off sick this week, I figured, I could probably count this head by head based on the pictures. So I tried to. I got about 1000 in the East Stand, another 200 in the NE corner. Then gave up.
  • I attempted this and started with one, two, three - but only managed to get to twelvety before someone moved.
  • Should be able to count them on one hand pretty soon... Thank you Roland Deshitebucket
  • The fact that virtually all entries are electronically verified means that the continued inclusion of STs and freebies regardless of their presence or use is disingenuous at best and maliciously deceptive at worst. Advertisers ought to be pressured by the fans regarding the true numbers.
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  • I think airman has indicated a correlation of the actual gate and the valley gold jackpot prize.
    Last night it was £155.
  • Fiiish said:

    The fact that virtually all entries are electronically verified means that the continued inclusion of STs and freebies regardless of their presence or use is disingenuous at best and maliciously deceptive at worst. Advertisers ought to be pressured by the fans regarding the true numbers.

    Third-party advertising is trivial in terms of revenue and reach at The Valley, except for TV purposes.
  • JiMMy 85 said:

    Seeing as I am off sick this week, I figured, I could probably count this head by head based on the pictures. So I tried to. I got about 1000 in the East Stand, another 200 in the NE corner. Then gave up.

    Thought of the same thing but could'nt be bothered, so estimated each stand. Came up with 1000 for the east stand - just like your counting. The covered end was difficult to estimate, I gave it 2k to 2500. Really not sure about the west stand as could not see the upper part, as the lower was nearly empty (750?).
    Say 1500 to 2000 for upper and lower west. Jimmy Seed stand was around 2 coach loads, say 200.

    That totals between 4700 & 5700 plus the north corners (nearly forgot). Say another 600.

    Makes a grand total of 5300 to 6300. Say around 6000 !! Bet you dont tell your boss that eh Katrien. Just my estimates though.
  • I didn't do West or Jimmy Seed, but concur with the rest of your findings.
  • One season the Norwich programme stated tickets issued and then the actual physical attendance and then a percentage turn-out figure comparing the two. They made it clear the 'official attendance' was the first figure - tickets sold/issued.

    Obviously you'd get a 95-98% turnout for Saturday fixtures against bigger teams especially, but down to 84% for Rotherham at home on a Tuesday, showing that 16% of people who bought a season ticket or match ticket, or were issued a ticket, didn't show up.
  • edited August 2016
    In our case it just seems like another lie piled on top of the others, with no particular purpose other than an attempt to hide their total failure running our football club to anybody who's not paying particular attention. A kindergartener could do better.
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