Thanks very much for taking the time to write all that down, greatly appreciated. Never heard of London Tribunals before, that would appear to be the direction to go in though. Thanks again.
Bear in mind that the Tribunal will base their decision only on whether your right of appeal is covered by the statutory regulations. Use it as a last resort if the Council don't withdraw the penalty notice.
I would suggest it's better to get the Council to not pursue the case. The Council are not bound by law to pursue you for the penalty, they just have the power to do so. Once they exercise that power the Tribunal can only look at the legally prescribed grounds for upholding an appeal; the Council confusing you with the wrong information probably isn't on the list.
You didn't actually buy a ticket even though you had good reason, but that might be all the Tribunal lawyer can do.
True story - I got a ticket many years ago in the City. Realised on the 14th day I hadn't paid the fine so had to be paid in cash that day at the City of London Magistrates office (before days of online banking). Problem was I had to be in Birmingham by 10am so drove by early in the morning before it was open and left the cash in an envelope and slid it under the door. Then got letter saying my penalty was now £100 as i hadn't paid. Obviously got pocketed instead of being handed over by someone.
Went to Tribunal and lost. They said legally I hadn't paid the money TO the office. Left the Tribunal fuming and went straight to the Magistrates payment office and completely lost it with the counter staff, telling them what a load of thieving arseholes they were and they weren't getting another penny out of me. They waived the penalty.
You're absolutely right that the easiest thing for Mr Largo to do is to get his ticket cancelled by the council. But in my experience, the chances of that happening are now just north of zero.
Why should the council cancel the penalty now? They have considered Mr Largo's initial representation and decided that in their opinion the penalty should stand. Almost certainly, Mr Largo now has to pay up or go to formal appeal.
Prima facia, he could have a right of appeal under number 7. Thinking about it, I would make a FOI request to Lewisham to see a copy of the traffic order. (This way they have to respond and provide one). If the order states the charge is £10, and the council are charging £14 then clearly this could be grounds for challenge.
However, as said previously (and as Alwaysneil has added) I remain concerned that the fact no ticket was bought could be prejudicial to Mr Largo's case.
Oh, and by the way, screaming at the payment office staff in these days of CCTV is now more liable to lead to you getting yourself into trouble rather than getting off a penalty.
Thanks very much for taking the time to write all that down, greatly appreciated. Never heard of London Tribunals before, that would appear to be the direction to go in though. Thanks again.
Bear in mind that the Tribunal will base their decision only on whether your right of appeal is covered by the statutory regulations. Use it as a last resort if the Council don't withdraw the penalty notice.
I would suggest it's better to get the Council to not pursue the case. The Council are not bound by law to pursue you for the penalty, they just have the power to do so. Once they exercise that power the Tribunal can only look at the legally prescribed grounds for upholding an appeal; the Council confusing you with the wrong information probably isn't on the list.
You didn't actually buy a ticket even though you had good reason, but that might be all the Tribunal lawyer can do.
True story - I got a ticket many years ago in the City. Realised on the 14th day I hadn't paid the fine so had to be paid in cash that day at the City of London Magistrates office (before days of online banking). Problem was I had to be in Birmingham by 10am so drove by early in the morning before it was open and left the cash in an envelope and slid it under the door. Then got letter saying my penalty was now £100 as i hadn't paid. Obviously got pocketed instead of being handed over by someone.
Went to Tribunal and lost. They said legally I hadn't paid the money TO the office. Left the Tribunal fuming and went straight to the Magistrates payment office and completely lost it with the counter staff, telling them what a load of thieving arseholes they were and they weren't getting another penny out of me. They waived the penalty.
You're absolutely right that the easiest thing for Mr Largo to do is to get his ticket cancelled by the council. But in my experience, the chances of that happening are now just north of zero.
Why should the council cancel the penalty now? They have considered Mr Largo's initial representation and decided that in their opinion the penalty should stand. Almost certainly, Mr Largo now has to pay up or go to formal appeal.
Prima facia, he could have a right of appeal under number 7. Thinking about it, I would make a FOI request to Lewisham to see a copy of the traffic order. (This way they have to respond and provide one). If the order states the charge is £10, and the council are charging £14 then clearly this could be grounds for challenge.
However, as said previously (and as Alwaysneil has added) I remain concerned that the fact no ticket was bought could be prejudicial to Mr Largo's case.
Oh, and by the way, screaming at the payment office staff in these days of CCTV is now more liable to lead to you getting yourself into trouble rather than getting off a penalty.
But Mr Largo went to pay for the ticket but he challenged it because it was incorrect. This IMHO could cloud that.
Tough one this as both Mr Largo and the council have an argument
Thanks very much for taking the time to write all that down, greatly appreciated. Never heard of London Tribunals before, that would appear to be the direction to go in though. Thanks again.
Bear in mind that the Tribunal will base their decision only on whether your right of appeal is covered by the statutory regulations. Use it as a last resort if the Council don't withdraw the penalty notice.
I would suggest it's better to get the Council to not pursue the case. The Council are not bound by law to pursue you for the penalty, they just have the power to do so. Once they exercise that power the Tribunal can only look at the legally prescribed grounds for upholding an appeal; the Council confusing you with the wrong information probably isn't on the list.
You didn't actually buy a ticket even though you had good reason, but that might be all the Tribunal lawyer can do.
True story - I got a ticket many years ago in the City. Realised on the 14th day I hadn't paid the fine so had to be paid in cash that day at the City of London Magistrates office (before days of online banking). Problem was I had to be in Birmingham by 10am so drove by early in the morning before it was open and left the cash in an envelope and slid it under the door. Then got letter saying my penalty was now £100 as i hadn't paid. Obviously got pocketed instead of being handed over by someone.
Went to Tribunal and lost. They said legally I hadn't paid the money TO the office. Left the Tribunal fuming and went straight to the Magistrates payment office and completely lost it with the counter staff, telling them what a load of thieving arseholes they were and they weren't getting another penny out of me. They waived the penalty.
You're absolutely right that the easiest thing for Mr Largo to do is to get his ticket cancelled by the council. But in my experience, the chances of that happening are now just north of zero.
Why should the council cancel the penalty now? They have considered Mr Largo's initial representation and decided that in their opinion the penalty should stand. Almost certainly, Mr Largo now has to pay up or go to formal appeal.
Prima facia, he could have a right of appeal under number 7. Thinking about it, I would make a FOI request to Lewisham to see a copy of the traffic order. (This way they have to respond and provide one). If the order states the charge is £10, and the council are charging £14 then clearly this could be grounds for challenge.
However, as said previously (and as Alwaysneil has added) I remain concerned that the fact no ticket was bought could be prejudicial to Mr Largo's case.
Oh, and by the way, screaming at the payment office staff in these days of CCTV is now more liable to lead to you getting yourself into trouble rather than getting off a penalty.
But Mr Largo went to pay for the ticket but he challenged it because it was incorrect. This IMHO could cloud that.
Tough one this as both Mr Largo and the council have an argument
In my opinion (for what its worth) if Mr Largo had bought a ticket for £10, and that ticket under the new pricing structure Lewisham claims were in effect, only enabled him to park for, say 6 hours, rather than, say all day, when the signs said a £10 ticket entitled the purchaser to park all day, I believe he would have a clear case for an appeal. I actually think he would win comfortably.
But he didn't buy any ticket. Therefore the issue isn't as clear cut.
If there are any solicitors on here who post, I would be fascinated to hear their take on the matter.
Otherwise Mr largo you could try Citizens Advice although how clued up they are on this sort of issue I hesitate to say.
Thanks very much for taking the time to write all that down, greatly appreciated. Never heard of London Tribunals before, that would appear to be the direction to go in though. Thanks again.
Bear in mind that the Tribunal will base their decision only on whether your right of appeal is covered by the statutory regulations. Use it as a last resort if the Council don't withdraw the penalty notice.
I would suggest it's better to get the Council to not pursue the case. The Council are not bound by law to pursue you for the penalty, they just have the power to do so. Once they exercise that power the Tribunal can only look at the legally prescribed grounds for upholding an appeal; the Council confusing you with the wrong information probably isn't on the list.
You didn't actually buy a ticket even though you had good reason, but that might be all the Tribunal lawyer can do.
True story - I got a ticket many years ago in the City. Realised on the 14th day I hadn't paid the fine so had to be paid in cash that day at the City of London Magistrates office (before days of online banking). Problem was I had to be in Birmingham by 10am so drove by early in the morning before it was open and left the cash in an envelope and slid it under the door. Then got letter saying my penalty was now £100 as i hadn't paid. Obviously got pocketed instead of being handed over by someone.
Went to Tribunal and lost. They said legally I hadn't paid the money TO the office. Left the Tribunal fuming and went straight to the Magistrates payment office and completely lost it with the counter staff, telling them what a load of thieving arseholes they were and they weren't getting another penny out of me. They waived the penalty.
You're absolutely right that the easiest thing for Mr Largo to do is to get his ticket cancelled by the council. But in my experience, the chances of that happening are now just north of zero.
Why should the council cancel the penalty now? They have considered Mr Largo's initial representation and decided that in their opinion the penalty should stand. Almost certainly, Mr Largo now has to pay up or go to formal appeal.
Prima facia, he could have a right of appeal under number 7. Thinking about it, I would make a FOI request to Lewisham to see a copy of the traffic order. (This way they have to respond and provide one). If the order states the charge is £10, and the council are charging £14 then clearly this could be grounds for challenge.
However, as said previously (and as Alwaysneil has added) I remain concerned that the fact no ticket was bought could be prejudicial to Mr Largo's case.
Oh, and by the way, screaming at the payment office staff in these days of CCTV is now more liable to lead to you getting yourself into trouble rather than getting off a penalty.
But Mr Largo went to pay for the ticket but he challenged it because it was incorrect. This IMHO could cloud that.
Tough one this as both Mr Largo and the council have an argument
In my opinion (for what its worth) if Mr Largo had bought a ticket for £10, and that ticket under the new pricing structure Lewisham claims were in effect, only enabled him to park for, say 6 hours, rather than, say all day, when the signs said a £10 ticket entitled the purchaser to park all day, I believe he would have a clear case for an appeal. I actually think he would win comfortably.
But he didn't buy any ticket. Therefore the issue isn't as clear cut.
If there are any solicitors on here who post, I would be fascinated to hear their take on the matter.
Otherwise Mr largo you could try Citizens Advice although how clued up they are on this sort of issue I hesitate to say.
Agree with your point but Mr Largo rang the hotline and asked for the all day ticket which was displayed at £10 only to be asked for more. Therefore, IMHO, there is a slight unfairness on it.
However, I'm sure the council will hide behind the old "You should have bought a ticket then got the money back" line
Thanks very much for taking the time to write all that down, greatly appreciated. Never heard of London Tribunals before, that would appear to be the direction to go in though. Thanks again.
Bear in mind that the Tribunal will base their decision only on whether your right of appeal is covered by the statutory regulations. Use it as a last resort if the Council don't withdraw the penalty notice.
I would suggest it's better to get the Council to not pursue the case. The Council are not bound by law to pursue you for the penalty, they just have the power to do so. Once they exercise that power the Tribunal can only look at the legally prescribed grounds for upholding an appeal; the Council confusing you with the wrong information probably isn't on the list.
You didn't actually buy a ticket even though you had good reason, but that might be all the Tribunal lawyer can do.
True story - I got a ticket many years ago in the City. Realised on the 14th day I hadn't paid the fine so had to be paid in cash that day at the City of London Magistrates office (before days of online banking). Problem was I had to be in Birmingham by 10am so drove by early in the morning before it was open and left the cash in an envelope and slid it under the door. Then got letter saying my penalty was now £100 as i hadn't paid. Obviously got pocketed instead of being handed over by someone.
Went to Tribunal and lost. They said legally I hadn't paid the money TO the office. Left the Tribunal fuming and went straight to the Magistrates payment office and completely lost it with the counter staff, telling them what a load of thieving arseholes they were and they weren't getting another penny out of me. They waived the penalty.
You're absolutely right that the easiest thing for Mr Largo to do is to get his ticket cancelled by the council. But in my experience, the chances of that happening are now just north of zero.
Why should the council cancel the penalty now? They have considered Mr Largo's initial representation and decided that in their opinion the penalty should stand. Almost certainly, Mr Largo now has to pay up or go to formal appeal.
Prima facia, he could have a right of appeal under number 7. Thinking about it, I would make a FOI request to Lewisham to see a copy of the traffic order. (This way they have to respond and provide one). If the order states the charge is £10, and the council are charging £14 then clearly this could be grounds for challenge.
However, as said previously (and as Alwaysneil has added) I remain concerned that the fact no ticket was bought could be prejudicial to Mr Largo's case.
Oh, and by the way, screaming at the payment office staff in these days of CCTV is now more liable to lead to you getting yourself into trouble rather than getting off a penalty.
But Mr Largo went to pay for the ticket but he challenged it because it was incorrect. This IMHO could cloud that.
Tough one this as both Mr Largo and the council have an argument
In my opinion (for what its worth) if Mr Largo had bought a ticket for £10, and that ticket under the new pricing structure Lewisham claims were in effect, only enabled him to park for, say 6 hours, rather than, say all day, when the signs said a £10 ticket entitled the purchaser to park all day, I believe he would have a clear case for an appeal. I actually think he would win comfortably.
But he didn't buy any ticket. Therefore the issue isn't as clear cut.
If there are any solicitors on here who post, I would be fascinated to hear their take on the matter.
Otherwise Mr largo you could try Citizens Advice although how clued up they are on this sort of issue I hesitate to say.
Agree with your point but Mr Largo rang the hotline and asked for the all day ticket which was displayed at £10 only to be asked for more. Therefore, IMHO, there is a slight unfairness on it.
However, I'm sure the council will hide behind the old "You should have bought a ticket then got the money back" line
Sadly, I've a horrible feeling you may well be right.
Gut feeling that the council haven't got a leg to stand on. They're in breach of their own processes on a few counts. Also they can't keep you hanging for the appeal result. Suspect that is a breach of natural law too. Should be an easy win, and if it's not you still haven't done anything wrong.
The office that processes PCN appeals on behalf of Lewisham Council is in Sheffield (where else?!), so I won't be popping in to give then a piece of my mind, as enjoyable as that would be.
Based on what you said at the start I would be thinking the evidence I would ideally submit would be photo of tariff from the sign at the parking spot, evidence of phone call to Ringo before 9am, recepit or correspondence from previous decision when they said they would fix it. At least 2 of those should seal it in my opinion.
With the greatest respect, it really isn't that simple.
If I was the adjudicator, the question I would ask Mr Largo is "Yes I hear all you say. But can you explain to me why you didn't pay for a day's parking and then take the matter up with the local authority and reclaim the excess amount of money you were charged."
1. The onus is on the motorist to park correctly at ALL times. 2. I thought I was correctly parked but made a mistake is not a ground to appeal against a parking ticket 3. Should have paid the inflated tariff on the morning and claimed that back rather than pay nothing and get a parking ticket 4. Could have paid the correct tariff by cash
This is where I am with this so far.
Has a Notice to Owner been issued, did you make an appeal before it?
On principle it's grossly unfair. But in the eyes of the law you missed the grace period when you can pay and between the end of the grace period and you paying a wardy just happened to be passing and they did you as according to ther machine their was no payment come the end of the grace period.
Acctually by law they have to sue within 6 months of the ticket. So if they reject their attitude is we'll see you in court. But it will cost them to bring the case for a relatively small sum. They might be hoping you'll pay under protest. That is what councils are like, hoping to line their pockets and the big wigs there enjoy a nice holiday with it.
My parking fine advice as outlined in the first post is to get to the station by bus, cycling or walking. Then you'll never get this sort of crap to deal with.
Helpful advice.
Indeed. Next time I need to bring my dog back from my parents' house in Sevenoaks first thing in the morning I'll just stick it on the back of my tandem, or we'll walk the 17 miles.
Thanks very much for all the genuinely helpful comments, much appreciated.
Dogs can go on buses.
Perhaps you could clarify your helpfulness, by advising Mr Largo, which bus runs from Sevenoaks to Hither Green station and confirm that it would indeed be quicker than driving by car ?
Appreciate the arguments both ways but Mr largo has to take a position. The fact the charge/ fine was wrongly levied is usually enough to void it- certainly the case with a PCN, usually known as technicalities. In this case clear evidence of that and their slow processing of the first appeal should be enough to get justice. That's how I'd look to play it.
The sad truth about local authorities is because they have been so squeezed of funding over the years, they now resort to stealing from honest people when they can. They do this is a variety of ways, and it is a bit depressing!
So they are advertising a service at a different price to the one that is paid ? I'd say, call lewisham council's Trading Standards department and run it by them.
I am having a similar battle with Greenwich park parking people.
I intended to pay however the two machines I went to weren't working. I took pictures of both screens.
I got a ticket. Went to the attendant and explained, or rather the wife did. He said he'd put a note on and that I should appeal the 40 quid ticket.
So I emailed immediately with pics explaining. No response other than a shitty letter six weeks later.
I complained and referenced my email
They sent some bullshit readout saying no faults that day and refuted any note left by the guy.
I appealed.
They then somehow found the note by the guy, and then fell back on saying it was up to me to go to every single machine or ring the hotline. I suggested this was unfair as I had attempted to pay and spoken to their guy.
No joy. I refused to pay again and said I'd be taking it up with the park services people - I've been trying to do that but keep missing the guy, telephone tag etc. Meanwhile the parking people side has gone quiet.
Comments
Why should the council cancel the penalty now? They have considered Mr Largo's initial representation and decided that in their opinion the penalty should stand. Almost certainly, Mr Largo now has to pay up or go to formal appeal.
I also agree Mr Largo's penalty can only be on a grounds of appeal set out in the following - http://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/eat/grounds-appeal/grounds-appeal-parking That's why I said, it's got to be factual, not simply it's not fair.
Prima facia, he could have a right of appeal under number 7. Thinking about it, I would make a FOI request to Lewisham to see a copy of the traffic order. (This way they have to respond and provide one). If the order states the charge is £10, and the council are charging £14 then clearly this could be grounds for challenge.
However, as said previously (and as Alwaysneil has added) I remain concerned that the fact no ticket was bought could be prejudicial to Mr Largo's case.
Oh, and by the way, screaming at the payment office staff in these days of CCTV is now more liable to lead to you getting yourself into trouble rather than getting off a penalty.
Tough one this as both Mr Largo and the council have an argument
But he didn't buy any ticket. Therefore the issue isn't as clear cut.
If there are any solicitors on here who post, I would be fascinated to hear their take on the matter.
Otherwise Mr largo you could try Citizens Advice although how clued up they are on this sort of issue I hesitate to say.
However, I'm sure the council will hide behind the old "You should have bought a ticket then got the money back" line
The office that processes PCN appeals on behalf of Lewisham Council is in Sheffield (where else?!), so I won't be popping in to give then a piece of my mind, as enjoyable as that would be.
With the greatest respect, it really isn't that simple.
If I was the adjudicator, the question I would ask Mr Largo is "Yes I hear all you say. But can you explain to me why you didn't pay for a day's parking and then take the matter up with the local authority and reclaim the excess amount of money you were charged."
Seriously, that will be the decider.
2. I thought I was correctly parked but made a mistake is not a ground to appeal against a parking ticket
3. Should have paid the inflated tariff on the morning and claimed that back rather than pay nothing and get a parking ticket
4. Could have paid the correct tariff by cash
This is where I am with this so far.
Has a Notice to Owner been issued, did you make an appeal before it?
I'd say, call lewisham council's Trading Standards department and run it by them.
I intended to pay however the two machines I went to weren't working. I took pictures of both screens.
I got a ticket. Went to the attendant and explained, or rather the wife did. He said he'd put a note on and that I should appeal the 40 quid ticket.
So I emailed immediately with pics explaining. No response other than a shitty letter six weeks later.
I complained and referenced my email
They sent some bullshit readout saying no faults that day and refuted any note left by the guy.
I appealed.
They then somehow found the note by the guy, and then fell back on saying it was up to me to go to every single machine or ring the hotline. I suggested this was unfair as I had attempted to pay and spoken to their guy.
No joy. I refused to pay again and said I'd be taking it up with the park services people - I've been trying to do that but keep missing the guy, telephone tag etc. Meanwhile the parking people side has gone quiet.