They will cover the loss by selling JBG and the owner will pocket revenue from the other sales of which I'm sure there will be quite a few - any that will command a decent fee I assume. Financially it won't hurt him as bad as some might think. He isn't getting anymore of my money, that's for sure.
Not defending Roland, but it's unfair to talk about him "pocketing" revenue from the sales of players when the club is losing several million a year anyway. If he kept the JBG money, for example, all it would do is reduce the money the club owes him! That's the crazy reality of football finances at the moment.
As for the players under contract, a lot depends of what wages they're on. JBG and Cousins were given new deals to stay, as they only had 1 year left on their contracts, I imagine these would be quite good contracts, similarly the likes of Igor, Watt, Kashi and Tex who were all established first team players when we signed them. Possible also Sarr, seeing that we bought him from Lisbon and Bergdych...
The likes of Ba and Ceballos would probably be on smaller wages, seeing that they weren't established players when we signed them
I think it is fair - as he has created the mess through his incompetence. He should get out of it through good management.
Imnot, I'm assuming the 60% rule is based on turnover recorded for the previous year?
From what I read on the matter, I don't think that's the case. Instead it's based on the initial budget for the new season. That is a prediction. With regular reporting to the league throughout the season and (possibly) alterations being made to the wage cap as things move along. I'll post up a link if I can find it again.
Something else to consider that relegation is going to punish us for.
We hardly ever fill the Jimmy Seed with away fans. If Aston Villa, Newcastle and Sunderland are relegated from the Showbiz and Gillingham and Millwall are promoted from the scrap heap that would have given us five guaranteed full away ends, equivalent to £300k? How many will we get in Division 3?
I still think far too much is being made of the prospect that Ducatelet is contemplating selling because of either relegation, the protests or both. I can see nothing that makes me think Roland will not just plow ahead regardless.
Like it or not the protest will diminish during the close season. Our exposure in terms of protest will be far less next season. It's going to become much tougher for CARD.
My guess is that he's going to run with it. Forge ahead with the Sparrows Lane development and sit tight.
Any player that we currently have will be moved on if there is a saving and someone is willing to take them. I think the replacements will be predominantly British but none signed for a fee.
As a CARD supporter I think we go again next season.
I still think far too much is being made of the prospect that Ducatelet is contemplating selling because of either relegation, the protests or both. I can see nothing that makes me think Roland will not just plow ahead regardless.
Like it or not the protest will diminish during the close season. Our exposure in terms of protest will be far less next season. It's going to become much tougher for CARD.
My guess is that he's going to run with it. Forge ahead with the Sparrows Lane development and sit tight.
Any player that we currently have will be moved on if there is a saving and someone is willing to take them. I think the replacements will be predominantly British but none signed for a fee.
As a CARD supporter I think we go again next season.
This. If he was going to sell he might have done so by now. I can't see how a relegation is going to change his mind. I'm not sure, however, that he won't take a gamble on getting us back up. The press releases all say that the club are aware of the need to sign better players and if they have, genuinely, learned anything this season a similar level of investment, as they claim to have spent in the last two years, with someone with the slightest ability to spot appropriate talent, and we would be able to walk the third division.
I can't believe that RD or KM are suddenly going to accept (and admit to themselves) that they will never be able to build a side capable of succeeding. They both come across as way too arrogant to either believe that or to publicly say it.
It will be more of the same, i.e. signing young players with potential and hoping that this lot come good when the last lot didn't. Eventually they will sign decent players, even if it's by accident. Sadly unless they get in a competent scout, and listen to him, we might be in the third division for a while before they manage it.
I assume Roland and his regime will stay too. For me the issue will be is there enough juice left in the protesting fans to make their life hell if they stay. If this regime continues as it has done, is there anybody exempt from fan action? I recognise that there are good and decent people left working at the club, but there are also a lot who hate us fans and it isn't easy to distinguish the good guys from the bad guys. I have heard that Ravi is both a good guy and a bad guy for example. Lisa Squires also has a variety of regard. It is easy to accept that Katrien and Cojones are complete bad guys who hate the fans, probably Joynes too, then we have names such as Natalie and Mandy and others, and institutions such as the club shop and Delaware North. We have already had an exit example from Mel Baroni, others got out PDQ after the regime arrived, and then we have people like Louis Mend who are deliberately marginalised. If they are intending to continue as usual, then everybody who works for this regime, including footballing staff, is at risk of being hated by fans whether they deserve it or not.
I still think far too much is being made of the prospect that Ducatelet is contemplating selling because of either relegation, the protests or both. I can see nothing that makes me think Roland will not just plow ahead regardless.
Like it or not the protest will diminish during the close season. Our exposure in terms of protest will be far less next season. It's going to become much tougher for CARD.
My guess is that he's going to run with it. Forge ahead with the Sparrows Lane development and sit tight.
Any player that we currently have will be moved on if there is a saving and someone is willing to take them. I think the replacements will be predominantly British but none signed for a fee.
As a CARD supporter I think we go again next season.
You are probably right but with the rider that we are most unlikely to have any advance warning of that joyous day when the sale is announced. So until then we are unlikely to see any evidence.
When players are sold can RD pocket the fee and leave the debt in place so keep earning interest?
People talk about signing players but we don't even have a chief scout in place to find these players.
It amazes me the difference between the financial rules for clubs relegated from the Prem and those relegated from the Champ, amazing doesn't cover it!
@Imnot Athletic the income difference between the two leagues equates to around the £6.5 - 7 million mark. This takes into account reductions in TV income, lower season and match day ticket revenue, reduction in sponsorships and match day hospitality income and lower concourse and retail income on match days. Clearly relegation should be avoided at all costs, however unfortunately this is almost certainly going to happen this season. The last time the club were in league one a comprehensive plan was put in place to ensure the club would return to the championship, the plan was devised and implemented by Peter Varney and Steve Kavanagh, who had a very competent senior management team in place across both the football and non football activities at the club. I hope that a similar plan is already in place for next season, although I fear that this may not be the case with this regime.
They said a few weeks ago they have not made any plans for League 1.
This may be true as they are unbelieveably arrogant, naive and incompetent.
However, they are also the biggest liars that our club have ever had.
Basically where I think everyone will end up who isnt here on loan.
Henderson ... Championship | Dmitrovic ... Europe | Bauer ... Germany / Portugal | Teixeira ... United States | Motta ... Italy | Johnson ... Who cares | Sarr ... Greece / Network / France | Gudmundsson ... Championship / Europe | Diarra ... France / Retire | Kashi ... France | Ceballos ... Network | Bergdich ... Network | Watt ... Championship | Tucudean ... Free Transfer | Vetokele ... Belgium
I wouldn't mind keeping Tucudean and Vetokele!
Would like to keep a good amount of those players and reckon that Tucudean / Vetokele could form an excellent partnership in League One; sadly I dont think either player wants to play that level and even if we cant find a buyer, wages could be a huge issue
i.e. Isnt that why Tucudean left Steaua in the end because they wanted him to take a drop in wage?
@Imnot Athletic the income difference between the two leagues equates to around the £6.5 - 7 million mark. This takes into account reductions in TV income, lower season and match day ticket revenue, reduction in sponsorships and match day hospitality income and lower concourse and retail income on match days. Clearly relegation should be avoided at all costs, however unfortunately this is almost certainly going to happen this season. The last time the club were in league one a comprehensive plan was put in place to ensure the club would return to the championship, the plan was devised and implemented by Peter Varney and Steve Kavanagh, who had a very competent senior management team in place across both the football and non football activities at the club. I hope that a similar plan is already in place for next season, although I fear that this may not be the case with this regime.
They said a few weeks ago they have not made any plans for League 1.
This may be true as they are unbelieveably arrogant, naive and incompetent.
However, they are also the biggest liars that our club have ever had.
Didn't someone ( @Henry Irving ?) say they'd heard the same from someone close to the club too?
With all due respect the last two years has demonstrated that they had no plans for Championship football either. It's all been 'made up as they went along' why should next season been any different?
@Imnot Athletic the income difference between the two leagues equates to around the £6.5 - 7 million mark. This takes into account reductions in TV income, lower season and match day ticket revenue, reduction in sponsorships and match day hospitality income and lower concourse and retail income on match days. Clearly relegation should be avoided at all costs, however unfortunately this is almost certainly going to happen this season. The last time the club were in league one a comprehensive plan was put in place to ensure the club would return to the championship, the plan was devised and implemented by Peter Varney and Steve Kavanagh, who had a very competent senior management team in place across both the football and non football activities at the club. I hope that a similar plan is already in place for next season, although I fear that this may not be the case with this regime.
They said a few weeks ago they have not made any plans for League 1.
This may be true as they are unbelieveably arrogant, naive and incompetent.
However, they are also the biggest liars that our club have ever had.
Didn't someone ( @Henry Irving ?) say they'd heard the same from someone close to the club too?
Yes, I was told that but I was later told that they had started to make plans.
But give that KM didn't even bother to find out who owned the trollies that were used to sell programmes before she sacked the company selling the programmes I have to fear that the plans will be bodged and based on false assumptions such as ST will only go down by 1500 as that was the drop last time we were relegated.
Imnot, I'm assuming the 60% rule is based on turnover recorded for the previous year?
I don't want to be negative and take your thread in a direction you didn't intend it to go, but I can see very little positive. The below is purely my own conjecture, but interested in any differing viewpoints.
Lets just assume that Roland now currently wants to sell, but 3-4 months down the line has come no closer to negotiating a sale because what he wants in return remains poles apart to what anyone is prepared to offer.
His approach in knowing that this is not going to remain a long-term project for him will be to a. slash his costs by as much as possible, or b. try and reduce losses by recouping as much from the valued sale of players currently under contract. Or a mix of 1 and 2. At Liege, they had a number of high profile sales before he offloaded the club.
Either way, I can't foresee a squad for next season that has anything other than even greater bolstered than this season in academy products, supplemented with cheap overseas imports to a lesser quality than the ones we have now.
Unless the quality of rookie youngsters breaking through takes everyone by surprise (having seen the U21s last week I doubt that), I don't see how we will have a squad for next season anywhere near good enough to compete, particularly if injuries kick in, and with a wage bill more than 50% of its current level, if Roland cannot agree a sale.
One of the points I'm trying to make is that we will potentially need to cut our wage bill by half in order to stay on the right side of the regulations. That's a fact that remains regardless of whether RD is still the owner or we are taken over. Wages are still pegged to turnover even if Sheik Mohammed gives up horse racing and takes an interest in us instead. I see there is a real risk of double relegation, particularly id there is a fire sale and that includes players in the long term contract list.
The only way you can cheat the system is to keep the likes of Bauer, Gudmundsson, Cousins, Kashi and Vetokele as their contracts don't count in the 60%. I see that as a one season solution, after that you have to renew or risk them going on a free and renewing adds them to the 60%. As Henry said, some players have relegation clauses that reduce their salaries. I hope its the ones we want to keep on the longer contracts and that we have the bottle to hang on to them in order to bounce back up. Otherwise it looks like League 2 in 2017/18.
Imnot, I'm assuming the 60% rule is based on turnover recorded for the previous year?
I don't want to be negative and take your thread in a direction you didn't intend it to go, but I can see very little positive. The below is purely my own conjecture, but interested in any differing viewpoints.
Lets just assume that Roland now currently wants to sell, but 3-4 months down the line has come no closer to negotiating a sale because what he wants in return remains poles apart to what anyone is prepared to offer.
His approach in knowing that this is not going to remain a long-term project for him will be to a. slash his costs by as much as possible, or b. try and reduce losses by recouping as much from the valued sale of players currently under contract. Or a mix of 1 and 2. At Liege, they had a number of high profile sales before he offloaded the club.
Either way, I can't foresee a squad for next season that has anything other than even greater bolstered than this season in academy products, supplemented with cheap overseas imports to a lesser quality than the ones we have now.
Unless the quality of rookie youngsters breaking through takes everyone by surprise (having seen the U21s last week I doubt that), I don't see how we will have a squad for next season anywhere near good enough to compete, particularly if injuries kick in, and with a wage bill more than 50% of its current level, if Roland cannot agree a sale.
One of the points I'm trying to make is that we will potentially need to cut our wage bill by half in order to stay on the right side of the regulations. That's a fact that remains regardless of whether RD is still the owner or we are taken over. Wages are still pegged to turnover even if Sheik Mohammed gives up horse racing and takes an interest in us instead. I see there is a real risk of double relegation, particularly id there is a fire sale and that includes players in the long term contract list.
The only way you can cheat the system is to keep the likes of Bauer, Gudmundsson, Cousins, Kashi and Vetokele as their contracts don't count in the 60%. I see that as a one season solution, after that you have to renew or risk them going on a free and renewing adds them to the 60%. As Henry said, some players have relegation clauses that reduce their salaries. I hope its the ones we want to keep on the longer contracts and that we have the bottle to hang on to them in order to bounce back up. Otherwise it looks like League 2 in 2017/18.
I don't think you have to worry about regulations Imnot, our wage bill will be cut in half alright!
@Imnot Athletic the income difference between the two leagues equates to around the £6.5 - 7 million mark. This takes into account reductions in TV income, lower season and match day ticket revenue, reduction in sponsorships and match day hospitality income and lower concourse and retail income on match days. Clearly relegation should be avoided at all costs, however unfortunately this is almost certainly going to happen this season. The last time the club were in league one a comprehensive plan was put in place to ensure the club would return to the championship, the plan was devised and implemented by Peter Varney and Steve Kavanagh, who had a very competent senior management team in place across both the football and non football activities at the club. I hope that a similar plan is already in place for next season, although I fear that this may not be the case with this regime.
If thats the case then our turnover could be as low as £6m, leaving 3.6m for wages, or 35% of 2014 figures. I have no confidence that we have a competent senior management team in place below board level and if their was they would probably sack them to save costs!
Under the SCMP rules, the definition of 'Turnover' is particularly important as Turnover is used to determine the maximum wage-spend. Within a traditional accounting perspective, there are usually only three elements of turnover:
Match-day Income Commercial Income (such as sponsorship) TV revenue (and any 'merit payments' based on league position) However the Football League use a is broader definition of Turnover. Crucially, the FL Turnover figure includes donations from the owners to the club and injections of equity. Loans from club owners are understandably not included in the Turnover figure as these would result in growing club debts. up club debts. In League 1 and League 2, a wealthy owner can therefore fund the club spending in a way that is not permitted in other divisions
Profit on player sales
Any profit made on player sales is included withinTurnover on a cash basis when the instalments are received.
So if RD (or a new owner) INJECTS money into the club, it counts as Turnover (for the salary percentage) but if he LOANS money to the club it doesn't. This doesn't apply to the Championship or PL, where all injections are invalid for the FFP calculation.
Under the SCMP rules, the definition of 'Turnover' is particularly important as Turnover is used to determine the maximum wage-spend. Within a traditional accounting perspective, there are usually only three elements of turnover:
Match-day Income Commercial Income (such as sponsorship) TV revenue (and any 'merit payments' based on league position) However the Football League use a is broader definition of Turnover. Crucially, the FL Turnover figure includes donations from the owners to the club and injections of equity. Loans from club owners are understandably not included in the Turnover figure as these would result in growing club debts. up club debts. In League 1 and League 2, a wealthy owner can therefore fund the club spending in a way that is not permitted in other divisions
Profit on player sales
Any profit made on player sales is included withinTurnover on a cash basis when the instalments are received.
Interesting. I wonder if the idiots that run the club have even bothered to look at this though. Its not really holiday reading for a beach in Dubai is it?!
Under the SCMP rules, the definition of 'Turnover' is particularly important as Turnover is used to determine the maximum wage-spend. Within a traditional accounting perspective, there are usually only three elements of turnover:
Match-day Income Commercial Income (such as sponsorship) TV revenue (and any 'merit payments' based on league position) However the Football League use a is broader definition of Turnover. Crucially, the FL Turnover figure includes donations from the owners to the club and injections of equity. Loans from club owners are understandably not included in the Turnover figure as these would result in growing club debts. up club debts. In League 1 and League 2, a wealthy owner can therefore fund the club spending in a way that is not permitted in other divisions
Profit on player sales
Any profit made on player sales is included withinTurnover on a cash basis when the instalments are received.
So if RD (or a new owner) INJECTS money into the club, it counts as Turnover (for the salary percentage) but if he LOANS money to the club it doesn't. This doesn't apply to the Championship or PL, where all injections are invalid for the FFP calculation.
Thanks, I knew I'd seen this on another thread.
So Roland can sinject as much as he likes but it has to be as equity not loan as before.
He can, and most probably will have to, put in cash as equity to pay the bills because I can't see him being able to get value for many of the flop signings.
There will be plenty who when offered a pay cut to play for a Romanian pub side or sitting on their agreed deal at the Valley will say "I'll stick it out here thanks" and I don't blame them at all for that. KM has shown with Polish Pete, Reza and Tucedean that it isn't that easy to move on the great talent found buy our lap top jockeys in Belgium.
There are few savings to be made on the admin side other than stopping the building work at Sparrows Lane.
The catering and retail are outsourced and vacancies are left vacant. They could lose a few PR consultants but then who would clear up KM and RDs media gaffes?
We could save money buy selling the laptops in Belgium and employing an UK based and experienced scouting and football management team. We get better and more suited players too.
Under the SCMP rules, the definition of 'Turnover' is particularly important as Turnover is used to determine the maximum wage-spend. Within a traditional accounting perspective, there are usually only three elements of turnover:
Match-day Income Commercial Income (such as sponsorship) TV revenue (and any 'merit payments' based on league position) However the Football League use a is broader definition of Turnover. Crucially, the FL Turnover figure includes donations from the owners to the club and injections of equity. Loans from club owners are understandably not included in the Turnover figure as these would result in growing club debts. up club debts. In League 1 and League 2, a wealthy owner can therefore fund the club spending in a way that is not permitted in other divisions
Profit on player sales
Any profit made on player sales is included withinTurnover on a cash basis when the instalments are received.
So if RD (or a new owner) INJECTS money into the club, it counts as Turnover (for the salary percentage) but if he LOANS money to the club it doesn't. This doesn't apply to the Championship or PL, where all injections are invalid for the FFP calculation.
Missed that, great spot. So profit from player sales or equity counts as turnover so any new owner can pump funds in to support a higher wage bill and balance the books. He can only get that out again on sale and without the tax advantages of loans. Clever
Comments
headgroin examined by a specialist.http://www.southlondonpress.co.uk/article.cfm?id=117124&headline=Exclusive: Charlton striker set to see specialist this week to find out full extent of injury&sectionIs=sport&searchyear=2016
Exclusive: Charlton striker set to see specialist this week to find out full extent of injury
Tuesday, 12 April 2016 By Richard Cawley in Football
[Tony Watt in action for Scotland] Tony Watt in action for Scotland
Tony Watt is set to see a specialist this week to determine the full extent of his groin injury.
And the South London Press understands that the initial prognosis is that the Charlton striker will be out for 12 weeks.
That would rule Watt out until early July - provided he doesn’t need surgery - and would affect the Addicks’ summer transfer plans.
etc..
We hardly ever fill the Jimmy Seed with away fans.
If Aston Villa, Newcastle and Sunderland are relegated from the Showbiz and Gillingham and Millwall are promoted from the scrap heap that would have given us five guaranteed full away ends, equivalent to £300k?
How many will we get in Division 3?
Like it or not the protest will diminish during the close season. Our exposure in terms of protest will be far less next season. It's going to become much tougher for CARD.
My guess is that he's going to run with it. Forge ahead with the Sparrows Lane development and sit tight.
Any player that we currently have will be moved on if there is a saving and someone is willing to take them. I think the replacements will be predominantly British but none signed for a fee.
As a CARD supporter I think we go again next season.
I can't believe that RD or KM are suddenly going to accept (and admit to themselves) that they will never be able to build a side capable of succeeding. They both come across as way too arrogant to either believe that or to publicly say it.
It will be more of the same, i.e. signing young players with potential and hoping that this lot come good when the last lot didn't. Eventually they will sign decent players, even if it's by accident. Sadly unless they get in a competent scout, and listen to him, we might be in the third division for a while before they manage it.
For me the issue will be is there enough juice left in the protesting fans to make their life hell if they stay.
If this regime continues as it has done, is there anybody exempt from fan action? I recognise that there are good and decent people left working at the club, but there are also a lot who hate us fans and it isn't easy to distinguish the good guys from the bad guys.
I have heard that Ravi is both a good guy and a bad guy for example. Lisa Squires also has a variety of regard. It is easy to accept that Katrien and Cojones are complete bad guys who hate the fans, probably Joynes too, then we have names such as Natalie and Mandy and others, and institutions such as the club shop and Delaware North.
We have already had an exit example from Mel Baroni, others got out PDQ after the regime arrived, and then we have people like Louis Mend who are deliberately marginalised.
If they are intending to continue as usual, then everybody who works for this regime, including footballing staff, is at risk of being hated by fans whether they deserve it or not.
When players are sold can RD pocket the fee and leave the debt in place so keep earning interest?
People talk about signing players but we don't even have a chief scout in place to find these players.
It amazes me the difference between the financial rules for clubs relegated from the Prem and those relegated from the Champ, amazing doesn't cover it!
This may be true as they are unbelieveably arrogant, naive and incompetent.
However, they are also the biggest liars that our club have ever had.
i.e. Isnt that why Tucudean left Steaua in the end because they wanted him to take a drop in wage?
But give that KM didn't even bother to find out who owned the trollies that were used to sell programmes before she sacked the company selling the programmes I have to fear that the plans will be bodged and based on false assumptions such as ST will only go down by 1500 as that was the drop last time we were relegated.
They are contracted to Charlton, they won't have to move.
The club can't sell them the possibility of premiership football if they're at St Truidenese.
The only way you can cheat the system is to keep the likes of Bauer, Gudmundsson, Cousins, Kashi and Vetokele as their contracts don't count in the 60%. I see that as a one season solution, after that you have to renew or risk them going on a free and renewing adds them to the 60%. As Henry said, some players have relegation clauses that reduce their salaries. I hope its the ones we want to keep on the longer contracts and that we have the bottle to hang on to them in order to bounce back up. Otherwise it looks like League 2 in 2017/18.
Roland doesn't do failure and success is to break even!
http://www.financialfairplay.co.uk/scmp.php So if RD (or a new owner) INJECTS money into the club, it counts as Turnover (for the salary percentage) but if he LOANS money to the club it doesn't. This doesn't apply to the Championship or PL, where all injections are invalid for the FFP calculation.
Interesting. I wonder if the idiots that run the club have even bothered to look at this though. Its not really holiday reading for a beach in Dubai is it?!
Thanks, I knew I'd seen this on another thread.
So Roland can sinject as much as he likes but it has to be as equity not loan as before.
He can, and most probably will have to, put in cash as equity to pay the bills because I can't see him being able to get value for many of the flop signings.
There will be plenty who when offered a pay cut to play for a Romanian pub side or sitting on their agreed deal at the Valley will say "I'll stick it out here thanks" and I don't blame them at all for that. KM has shown with Polish Pete, Reza and Tucedean that it isn't that easy to move on the great talent found buy our lap top jockeys in Belgium.
There are few savings to be made on the admin side other than stopping the building work at Sparrows Lane.
The catering and retail are outsourced and vacancies are left vacant. They could lose a few PR consultants but then who would clear up KM and RDs media gaffes?
We could save money buy selling the laptops in Belgium and employing an UK based and experienced scouting and football management team. We get better and more suited players too.
Missed that, great spot. So profit from player sales or equity counts as turnover so any new owner can pump funds in to support a higher wage bill and balance the books. He can only get that out again on sale and without the tax advantages of loans. Clever