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In trouble with The FA

Just seen Welling United have been fined £4000 for the amount of yellow and red cards they recieved last season. Potential match-fixing or just poor discipline?

http://www.wellingunited.com/wp/wings-fined-by-fa/
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Comments

  • Nothing more than poor discipline. Where match fixing comes in to this is mind boggling. Strange thing to say.
  • Very poor discipline, they probably weren't too far off a more severe penalty.
  • Apparently the fine was going to be £10,000 but it was reduced due to improved discipline towards the end of the season, for us that's just a weeks wage for one of our players, but I wonder how a fine like that could affect Welling.
  • About 10 - 15% of their revenue from the friendly with us (3000 people at 15 quid a pop).
  • Apparently the fine was going to be £10,000 but it was reduced due to improved discipline towards the end of the season, for us that's just a weeks wage for one of our players, but I wonder how a fine like that could affect Welling.

    That'll put 20p on the price of a greasy burger next season :-)
  • brogib said:

    I'll go with match fixing just to stir things up a bit

    It's rumoured that the bookies were stung for over a fiver on that bet!

  • Wasn't helped by the fact that the Manager at the start of the season (Jamie Day) wasn't shy when it came to tackling! Many an early bath during his Wings career..........
  • Rizzo said:

    brogib said:

    I'll go with match fixing just to stir things up a bit

    It's rumoured that the bookies were stung for over a fiver on that bet!

    I had thought a disproportionate amount of money was put on conference matches. Someone somewhere said more money went on, say, the Barrow match one weekend than the Barcelona match on the same weekend.

    It'll definitely be a story I was told and I didnt bother to research it. Anyone know how much goes on the average Welling match?
  • IA said:

    Rizzo said:

    brogib said:

    I'll go with match fixing just to stir things up a bit

    It's rumoured that the bookies were stung for over a fiver on that bet!

    I had thought a disproportionate amount of money was put on conference matches. Someone somewhere said more money went on, say, the Barrow match one weekend than the Barcelona match on the same weekend.

    It'll definitely be a story I was told and I didnt bother to research it. Anyone know how much goes on the average Welling match?
    But Barcelona at 50 to 1 on, all bar two weeks of the year, probably isn't very attractive... :wink:
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  • edited June 2015
    I think it is right to fine (appropriately to the size of the club) poor discipline. It would be even better if points were docked in extreme cases. We have over recent years been a very clean side. I recall when we were in the Premiership always being high in the fair play table when you might think a club of our size would be tempted by the dark side.

    The Solly sending off and similar shouldn't count though. I'm not sure how a natural reaction to protect ones face with a ball speeding towards it is foul play. The fact that makes it even worse is that Solly's hands didn't get there in time as was evidenced by the blood! I would like to see Refs apologise for these sort of decisisons (forced by their leadership). What it would do is force the refs who haven't played football to become better as there would be no hiding places. You wouldn't want teams punished because refs are as useless as Russell for instance.
  • I think it is right to fine (appropriately to the size of the club) poor discipline. It would be even better if points were docked in extreme cases. We have over recent years been a very clean side. I recall when we were in the Premiership always being high in the fair play table when you might think a club of our size would be tempted by the dark side.

    The Solly sending off and similar shouldn't count though. I'm not sure how a natural reaction to protect ones face with a ball speeding towards it is foul play. The fact that makes it even worse is that Solly's hands didn't get there in time as was evidenced by the blood! I would like to see Refs apologise for these sort of decisisons (forced by their leadership). What it would do is force the refs who haven't played football to become better as there would be no hiding places. You wouldn't want teams punished because refs are as useless as Russell for instance.

    "I am not sure", yet you give an opinion, how strange! Then you want referees to apologise simply for being a human, ie make a mistake! and...what has playing skills got to do with refereeing skills; totally separate! The single best refereeing skill is man management, not having been able to kick a ball in a previous life.
  • PeterGage said:

    I think it is right to fine (appropriately to the size of the club) poor discipline. It would be even better if points were docked in extreme cases. We have over recent years been a very clean side. I recall when we were in the Premiership always being high in the fair play table when you might think a club of our size would be tempted by the dark side.

    The Solly sending off and similar shouldn't count though. I'm not sure how a natural reaction to protect ones face with a ball speeding towards it is foul play. The fact that makes it even worse is that Solly's hands didn't get there in time as was evidenced by the blood! I would like to see Refs apologise for these sort of decisisons (forced by their leadership). What it would do is force the refs who haven't played football to become better as there would be no hiding places. You wouldn't want teams punished because refs are as useless as Russell for instance.

    "I am not sure", yet you give an opinion, how strange! Then you want referees to apologise simply for being a human, ie make a mistake! and...what has playing skills got to do with refereeing skills; totally separate! The single best refereeing skill is man management, not having been able to kick a ball in a previous life.
    If I made a mistake at work, I'd apologise for it.
  • PeterGage said:

    I think it is right to fine (appropriately to the size of the club) poor discipline. It would be even better if points were docked in extreme cases. We have over recent years been a very clean side. I recall when we were in the Premiership always being high in the fair play table when you might think a club of our size would be tempted by the dark side.

    The Solly sending off and similar shouldn't count though. I'm not sure how a natural reaction to protect ones face with a ball speeding towards it is foul play. The fact that makes it even worse is that Solly's hands didn't get there in time as was evidenced by the blood! I would like to see Refs apologise for these sort of decisisons (forced by their leadership). What it would do is force the refs who haven't played football to become better as there would be no hiding places. You wouldn't want teams punished because refs are as useless as Russell for instance.

    "I am not sure", yet you give an opinion, how strange! Then you want referees to apologise simply for being a human, ie make a mistake! and...what has playing skills got to do with refereeing skills; totally separate! The single best refereeing skill is man management, not having been able to kick a ball in a previous life.
    If I made a mistake at work, I'd apologise for it.
    I would suggest that making decisions on a football pitch are instantaneous and therefore more liable to mistakes being made than at work, when one has much more time to consider consequencies etc etc
  • edited June 2015
    There was some bias in my post about Russell I admit but I think his mistake was linked to my suspiscion of him not playing the game. I believe that good refs played or play the game. We may differ on that but that is my view. My son (14) passed his ref course a couple of months ago. Basically he plays in the local league and the refs rep for that league hassaid there is only a spot for him if he makes himself fully available which would mean he has to give up playing. So the young refs don't know what goes on in games, things you have to play to understand, so they call things wrong - no matter how well they know the laws. Needless to say he is not giving up playing and nor should he be asked to be!

    There are some great refs but a significant number have the wrong, petty mentality from my experience.
  • There was some bias in my post about Russell I admit but I think his mistake was linked to my suspiscion of him not playing the game. I believe that good refs played or play the game. We may differ on that but that is my view. My son (14) passed his ref course a couple of months ago. Basically he plays in the local league and the refs rep for that league hassaid there is only a spot for him if he makes himself fully available which would mean he has to give up playing. So the young refs don't know what goes on in games, things you have to play to understand, so they call things wrong - no matter how well they know the laws. Needless to say he is not giving up playing and nor should he be asked to be!

    There are some great refs but a significant number have the wrong, petty mentality from my experience.

    Are you talking about refs in local leagues?
    Many here play football, or have done at a local level, and many here have gone to play matches where there is no ref. What happens is a manager usually half heartedly gives decisions from a corner of the pitch and that's it...lets not even start talking about linesmen/women.
    So a ref or no ref at all?
    If you want a ref then you have to accept what they're like...even if they're crap or have a crap game I'm afraid. The problem is that players expect the local ref to be like the ones on the telly, and to also have some kind of camera rig on them and access to replays, and also to see things from their perspectives.
    Ref or no ref?
    How many on here have said to a ref 'you ought to do something else on a Sunday morning?' The irony is that they do, and it leaves people with no ref...just the aforementioned half hearted manager making 80 yard decisions.
    Most Sunday league players are imperfect, they will miserably scuff a penalty well wide...the difference is when they do the ref is unlikely to say 'you ought to do something else on a Sunday morning'.
    And the money/fee? Not important, I have turned down begging managers phoning in the week without a ref who offer double or treble the fee for you to turn out.
    When will players learn that abusing the ref drives refs away, and anyway a crap ref is like a crap pitch or crap weather, is there any point?
    My solution? Dunno, maybe do away with refs altogether and let the players 'agree' moment to moment, that would be a laugh.
  • We were top for fair play in our league though the OS article about showed Chris Solly as he had been sent off by Mick Russell. Personally I think Sols should have just gobbed in Russell's face LOL!

    If only he'd just said, 'Solly'
  • edited June 2015
    I was talking about the mentality of professional refs. They have to start somewhere and the ones that have played football are better IMO. I am totally against players abusing refs. I don't think a youngster should be told to decide whether he is a ref or a player as basically what my son has been told. It shows a lack of understanding - refs that play should be prioritised as the playing brings a greater understanding and new dimension to their reffing skills. If refs don't get that, the problem is apparent.
  • edited June 2015
    Play as long as you can, then ref. Agree. However reffing is a different skill to playing, and people can be good players and crap refs and vice versa. There are refs who have hardly played who are better than refs who have played a lot.
    If you mean by mentality strutting egomaniacs then I agree. For all his faults Brian Cloughs Nottingham Forest had it right. From today's paper:

    http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/news-and-comment/stop-attacks-on-referees-pearce-tells-managers-1023142.html
  • edited June 2015
    Not saying all refs that are played are good and some that haven't will be, but a mixture of the two has to be best. And a lot of senior refs don't get that. In fact they are quite dismissive of players' ignorance of the rules in a smug way. I see fouls on the pitch in front of some refs that they can't see - which I think is because they haven't experienced that type of foul on themselves. Then there are fouls they do give that show the same lack of awareness.
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  • I think it is right to fine (appropriately to the size of the club) poor discipline. It would be even better if points were docked in extreme cases. We have over recent years been a very clean side. I recall when we were in the Premiership always being high in the fair play table when you might think a club of our size would be tempted by the dark side.

    The Solly sending off and similar shouldn't count though. I'm not sure how a natural reaction to protect ones face with a ball speeding towards it is foul play. The fact that makes it even worse is that Solly's hands didn't get there in time as was evidenced by the blood! I would like to see Refs apologise for these sort of decisisons (forced by their leadership). What it would do is force the refs who haven't played football to become better as there would be no hiding places. You wouldn't want teams punished because refs are as useless as Russell for instance.

    Sorry Muttley, I disagree with a lot of your post.

    If a referee is forced to apologise, it will make him a better ref ? On what basis ?
    If a ref is making too many mistakes. The reasons need to be investigated.
    It may be their positioning, they may be too impulsive. It could be a whole host of things.
    But apologise and they will improve ?

    I also, don't believe you have had to play the game to any great extent, to be a good ref.

    If that was the case, how can we as fans criticise them ? What do we know ? We haven't played the game either.
  • Mick Russell does not need to apologise. He is just a very poor ref (Millwall and Oldham away prime examples) who should not be an official for any football league game.
  • shirty5 said:

    Nothing more than poor discipline. Where match fixing comes in to this is mind boggling. Strange thing to say.

    Not that strange really is it? A little far fetched perhaps. You can bet on how many yellow cards there are per game, that's how match fixing comes into this.

    People would have probably not listened to you either if you came on here after the Swindon boxing day come back and mentioned match fixing...doesn't seem that strange a thought now though does it?
  • I think it is right to fine (appropriately to the size of the club) poor discipline. It would be even better if points were docked in extreme cases. We have over recent years been a very clean side. I recall when we were in the Premiership always being high in the fair play table when you might think a club of our size would be tempted by the dark side.

    The Solly sending off and similar shouldn't count though. I'm not sure how a natural reaction to protect ones face with a ball speeding towards it is foul play. The fact that makes it even worse is that Solly's hands didn't get there in time as was evidenced by the blood! I would like to see Refs apologise for these sort of decisisons (forced by their leadership). What it would do is force the refs who haven't played football to become better as there would be no hiding places. You wouldn't want teams punished because refs are as useless as Russell for instance.

    Sorry Muttley, I disagree with a lot of your post.

    If a referee is forced to apologise, it will make him a better ref ? On what basis ?
    If a ref is making too many mistakes. The reasons need to be investigated.
    It may be their positioning, they may be too impulsive. It could be a whole host of things.
    But apologise and they will improve ?

    I also, don't believe you have had to play the game to any great extent, to be a good ref.

    If that was the case, how can we as fans criticise them ? What do we know ? We haven't played the game either.
    Most of us have - I didn't mean professionaly - just to a half decent standard. But fans don't make decisions, they watch and support.
  • Mick Russell does not need to apologise. He is just a very poor ref (Millwall and Oldham away prime examples) who should not be an official for any football league game.

    I don't think Mick Russell is a poor ref, he just doesn't like us for some reason. Middlesbrough at home last season, Cardiff at home this season and Millwall away this season prove that.

    He has it in for us, not sure why? Maybe we are too soft and don't intimidate him enough like other clubs do?
  • edited June 2015
    No he is a poor ref and has previous with other clubs that have not involved us. Below is a game from 2013 for example


    MICK RUSSELL, the referee at the centre of the cautions controversy during Huddersfield Town’s Championship clash with Sheffield Wednesday, has been taken off his scheduled game tomorrow.

    The Hertfordshire whistler, who showed Wednesday’s Jeremy Helan two yellow cards inside the opening 25 minutes of the John Smith’s Stadium derby clash but failed to send him off, was due to referee the Scunthorpe v Shrewsbury League I game.






    But Andy Haines, of Tyne and Wear, will now be in charge at Glanford Park.

    A spokesman for Professional Game Match Officials Limited, who provide officials for the Premier and Football League, said their investigation into the incident is ongoing and that Russell, 45, will not be allocated any matches while that is the case.

    Helan, who is on loan from Manchester City, has been handed the one-match ban he would have received had he been sent off.

    It will be served when Wednesday take on MK Dons in the FA Cup third round tomorrow – but Helan could not have played in any case because he is cup-tied after playing in the first round while on loan to Shrewsbury.


  • Not saying all refs that are played are good and some that haven't will be, but a mixture of the two has to be best. And a lot of senior refs don't get that. In fact they are quite dismissive of players' ignorance of the rules in a smug way. I see fouls on the pitch in front of some refs that they can't see - which I think is because they haven't experienced that type of foul on themselves. Then there are fouls they do give that show the same lack of awareness.

    One or two maybe, but I actually believe it is more about frustration from refs that players don't know the laws/rules of the game. I entertained myself at the POTY (yes sad but easily pleased) by asking Henderson, JBG, Buyens, Solly and Luzon if they have ever read the rules/laws and they were honest enough to admit they hadn't.
    Everybody thinks they know the laws, because essentially Football is quite a simple game. What you see as fouls may not actually be fouls, have you considered that?
    Then there is the offside law.

    This is the Offside law:

    FIFA Laws of the Game 2014-15



    Offside position

    It is not an offence in itself to be in an offside position.

    A player is in an offside position if:
    •he is nearer to his opponents' goal line than both the ball and the second-last opponent

    A player is not in an offside position if:
    •he is in his own half of the field of play or
    •he is level with the second-last opponent or
    •he is level with the last two opponents

    Offence

    A player in an offside position is only penalised if, at the moment the ball touches or is played by one of his team, he is, in the opinion of the referee, involved in active play by:
    •interfering with play or
    •interfering with an opponent or
    •gaining an advantage by being in that position


    No offence

    There is no offside offence if a player receives the ball directly from:
    •a goal kick
    •a throw-in
    •a corner kick


    Infringements and sanctions

    In the event of an offside offence, the referee awards an indirect free kick to the opposing team to be taken from the place where the infringement occurred (see Law 13 - Position of free kick).


    OK. At no point does it say the ball has to be played forward, yet players will tell you you are wrong if you give an offside if the ball is not played forward (believe me it can happen), and they will get the right hump thinking they know better than you, and that 'you ought to do something else on a Sunday morning'.
  • WSSWSS
    edited June 2015
    Can you give an instance/example in how you would give offside against a player if the ball is played backwards?

    Trying to rack my brains but can't see how you would.
  • shirty5 said:

    Nothing more than poor discipline. Where match fixing comes in to this is mind boggling. Strange thing to say.

    Not that strange really is it? A little far fetched perhaps. You can bet on how many yellow cards there are per game, that's how match fixing comes into this.

    People would have probably not listened to you either if you came on here after the Swindon boxing day come back and mentioned match fixing...doesn't seem that strange a thought now though does it?
    I missed the Swindon game due to work commitments and I always make a rule of not discussing games I have not witnessed.

    Re the match fixing quote, each to their own. I just believe it's a strange thing to say.

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