An owner who understood football would have no need to listen to the fans. Fans want drama, excitement, commitment passion and the ball in the back of the net. Roland doesn't come across to me as someone who is familiar with this concept. I notice they don't announce attendance figures any more, but Roland knows what they are and it's hard to say how he'll respond. Who will he listen to? He seems to like to have yes-men around him, and wouldn't take kindly to being told a few blunt home truths about his project. As another poster said, he has placed a barrier between himself and the rest of us at Charlton.
The thing is, we all need this club more than RD needs us.
If we all walk away, so be it. In time he will have a successful sports team with great facilities that he can market to a new audience.
We could well be the new Fulham! Full of tourists, after work night outers and corporates in suites.
RD does not need us as fans, or our funds short-mid term. We need charlton, that's why he can hold us to ransom.
And that us precisely why he has to be forced out. The network apologists are in the way of that
I thought you were advocating boycott until he was gone though? Surely that way it would merely accelerate his turning the club into a corporation instead? From RD's position, fans who don't go are fans who aren't a problem.
He needs customers and is unlikely to replace those that don't go because of West Ham etc.
I understand about corporate box holders being as disgruntled as covered enders, but my point is RD doesn't need them. If they will not wait for a successful team, he will build that without them, then market the box to somebody who will pay.
1000 fans paying an average £100 per game, will not impact on a man whose net worth is reported around €500.000.000.
If he has to wait 1/2/3/5 years before recouping that £100,000 then I'm sure he can wait. This club is a business to him and he can afford to wait for a return on his investment.
This is one way I look at matters at the moment...
The likes of Woolworths were good high street stores... Unfortunately they went out of Business because at the end of the day they didnt keep an eye on progression, they had their way of doing things and they stuck by them, ultimately because they didnt follow the trends set by their competitors they lost their customers and ultimately went out of business.
Now you look at Charlton... We've become a network club (Which to many is the big problem) but this has happened with clubs for years now a few examples which include big clubs:
- Manchester United / Antwerp (Countless United youngsters have played over in Belgium including current First Team Player: Johnny Evans) - Arsenal / Beveren (Emmanuel Eboue was sent to Belgium before Arsenal to ensure he qualified for work permit issues) - Manchester City / Melbourne City / New York City (Already you've seen Frank Lampard and David Villa used to full effect here)
Then you've the likes of Watford and Leeds United at our level who are part of the big picture, hell if you go back to us in the Premier League I dont remember there being many fans up in arms when we created links with Inter Milan and Valencia, yes nothing came of them but we could have found ourselves in this situation a lot sooner (With us losing the likes of Rufus to these clubs rather than the other way around).
Ultimately my point is thus... When you combine the amount of Millionaires with the amount of Football clubs out in the world these days there are more of the latter than there are people willing to put their money forward, because of bad decisions in the past your going to see more clubs struggling financially and it will probably become a case where there are many Roland Duchatelet's out there bringing clubs together under one roof and ensuring their survival.
Of course we can take this option or we can be like Woolworths, we can become a club that are run by people who think that plans that worked in the 90s will work now (Unfortunately the world has progressed too quickly since then), sadly I think in 10 - 20 years though we'll be an even smaller fish because we didnt keep up with our competitors
I understand about corporate box holders being as disgruntled as covered enders, but my point is RD doesn't need them. If they will not wait for a successful team, he will build that without them, then market the box to somebody who will pay.
1000 fans paying an average £100 per game, will not impact on a man whose net worth is reported around €500.000.000.
If he has to wait 1/2/3/5 years before recouping that £100,000 then I'm sure he can wait. This club is a business to him and he can afford to wait for a return on his investment.
Sorry dan, you're not thinking straight.
In your unrealistic example he would lose £100,000 per game or £2,300,000 per season. If he waits 5 years he has lost £10.5M. I think he will care very much.
This is one way I look at matters at the moment...
The likes of Woolworths were good high street stores... Unfortunately they went out of Business because at the end of the day they didnt keep an eye on progression, they had their way of doing things and they stuck by them, ultimately because they didnt follow the trends set by their competitors they lost their customers and ultimately went out of business.
Now you look at Charlton... We've become a network club (Which to many is the big problem) but this has happened with clubs for years now a few examples which include big clubs:
- Manchester United / Antwerp (Countless United youngsters have played over in Belgium including current First Team Player: Johnny Evans) - Arsenal / Beveren (Emmanuel Eboue was sent to Belgium before Arsenal to ensure he qualified for work permit issues) - Manchester City / Melbourne City / New York City (Already you've seen Frank Lampard and David Villa used to full effect here)
Then you've the likes of Watford and Leeds United at our level who are part of the big picture, hell if you go back to us in the Premier League I dont remember there being many fans up in arms when we created links with Inter Milan and Valencia, yes nothing came of them but we could have found ourselves in this situation a lot sooner (With us losing the likes of Rufus to these clubs rather than the other way around).
Ultimately my point is thus... When you combine the amount of Millionaires with the amount of Football clubs out in the world these days there are more of the latter than there are people willing to put their money forward, because of bad decisions in the past your going to see more clubs struggling financially and it will probably become a case where there are many Roland Duchatelet's out there bringing clubs together under one roof and ensuring their survival.
Of course we can take this option or we can be like Woolworths, we can become a club that are run by people who think that plans that worked in the 90s will work now (Unfortunately the world has progressed too quickly since then), sadly I think in 10 - 20 years though we'll be an even smaller fish because we didnt keep up with our competitors
Very good post. But the club STILL need to address their fans concerns, whilst they still have them. If he chucks £10M at the club to buy players in the summer, then I agree, this would dramatically change sentiment. However, he's never suggested he would and we need proper communication and respect.
This is one way I look at matters at the moment...
The likes of Woolworths were good high street stores... Unfortunately they went out of Business because at the end of the day they didnt keep an eye on progression, they had their way of doing things and they stuck by them, ultimately because they didnt follow the trends set by their competitors they lost their customers and ultimately went out of business.
Now you look at Charlton... We've become a network club (Which to many is the big problem) but this has happened with clubs for years now a few examples which include big clubs:
- Manchester United / Antwerp (Countless United youngsters have played over in Belgium including current First Team Player: Johnny Evans) - Arsenal / Beveren (Emmanuel Eboue was sent to Belgium before Arsenal to ensure he qualified for work permit issues) - Manchester City / Melbourne City / New York City (Already you've seen Frank Lampard and David Villa used to full effect here)
Then you've the likes of Watford and Leeds United at our level who are part of the big picture, hell if you go back to us in the Premier League I dont remember there being many fans up in arms when we created links with Inter Milan and Valencia, yes nothing came of them but we could have found ourselves in this situation a lot sooner (With us losing the likes of Rufus to these clubs rather than the other way around).
Ultimately my point is thus... When you combine the amount of Millionaires with the amount of Football clubs out in the world these days there are more of the latter than there are people willing to put their money forward, because of bad decisions in the past your going to see more clubs struggling financially and it will probably become a case where there are many Roland Duchatelet's out there bringing clubs together under one roof and ensuring their survival.
Of course we can take this option or we can be like Woolworths, we can become a club that are run by people who think that plans that worked in the 90s will work now (Unfortunately the world has progressed too quickly since then), sadly I think in 10 - 20 years though we'll be an even smaller fish because we didnt keep up with our competitors
Very good post. But the club STILL need to address their fans concerns, whilst they still have them. If he chucks £10M at the club to buy players in the summer, then I agree, this would dramatically change sentiment. However, he's never suggested he would and we need proper communication and respect.
This is the ultimate thing though...
Roland and Katrien need to ensure the club keep up with their competitors whilst addressing fan concerns whilst they can. The Fans need to understand that the world has progressed and that things that were acceptable in the past are now outdated and that because of this their concerns may not be able to be dealt with
Once again its a two way thing and is why both parties do need to come together and talk
(Now am a pro-network supporter but writing the above has at the same time made me understand why the trust want to talk with the board)
I understand about corporate box holders being as disgruntled as covered enders, but my point is RD doesn't need them. If they will not wait for a successful team, he will build that without them, then market the box to somebody who will pay.
1000 fans paying an average £100 per game, will not impact on a man whose net worth is reported around €500.000.000.
If he has to wait 1/2/3/5 years before recouping that £100,000 then I'm sure he can wait. This club is a business to him and he can afford to wait for a return on his investment.
Sorry dan, you're not thinking straight.
In your unrealistic example he would lose £100,000 per game or £2,300,000 per season. If he waits 5 years he has lost £10.5M. I think he will care very much.
Yes and no, that's still a very small percentage of his net worth. And whose to say he won't be successful before that time?
the club that finishes bottom of the Premier League in the 2016-17 season will pocket £99m. And in 5 years time this will be even larger, therefore he has made back what he lost and then some.
My view, is that whether it's a football club or let's say a shop or a restaurant/food outlet or whatever. If perhaps half of your customers, or even a quarter, believe that there are SIGNIFICANT problems, then there ARE problems and they need to be addressed.
Woolworths for instance, were generally known as a shop, that stocked all sorts of items, but NOT MAINLY, what their customers wanted. The public wouldn't have a bad word to say about dear old Woolworths, except, they don't often shop there, as it didn't stock what the customer wants/needs.
Woolworths no longer exist, the customers stopped going there.
If Charlton will not listen and will not enter into dialogue with their fans, they will not be successful. I don't wish to rehash all the particular issues that we all agree/disagree with. I just want to emphasize, what I have said.
Sorry to start another thread, but I thought it was important to emphasize, to both the club and the fans, that can't see any problems and believe nothing needs addressing.
Woolworths took away their shops as they sold items that it was cheaper to buy online. Hence why no one wanted to pay their High Street prices for items. I believe they still operate online. Not sure how this really compares to Charlton Athletic Football Club?
HMV went the same way, who wants to buy dvds/cds for top high street prices, when you have shops like Amazon that will see you the same item for half the price with free delivery.
This is just the way off the world, no one has any money, and wants to get the best value for the money they do have.
I do appreicate all the issues that people are bringing up at the moment, but I look back to a couple of years ago, and I was worried that the club would even continue to exist. I think the club is in a much healthier position compared to before Roland took over.
I think people's expectations of Charlton are a bit unrealistic at present, of course we want to be in the Premier League, but this will take time. I clearly remember the days when we weren't very good, and I had no real expectations of getting promoted, I just went to support my local team and cheer them on.
Gone are the days were we went to Grimsby Town on a Tuesday night and we took 86 fans. We had 2 players sent off and lost 3-1 I believe that night. The night was so depressing, I walked round just to count how many fans we had! lol I seem to remember a certain Mr Mendonca scoring a couple that night.
Maybe we should just get behind the team and cheer them on like the good old days. It doesn't matter who the manager/owner is, we should just be getting behind our team and cheering them on to victory.
The thing is, we all need this club more than RD needs us.
If we all walk away, so be it. In time he will have a successful sports team with great facilities that he can market to a new audience.
We could well be the new Fulham! Full of tourists, after work night outers and corporates in suites.
RD does not need us as fans, or our funds short-mid term. We need charlton, that's why he can hold us to ransom.
And that us precisely why he has to be forced out. The network apologists are in the way of that
I thought you were advocating boycott until he was gone though? Surely that way it would merely accelerate his turning the club into a corporation instead? From RD's position, fans who don't go are fans who aren't a problem.
He needs customers and is unlikely to replace those that don't go because of West Ham etc.
My concern would be that no-one else would, either. MAYBE a loss of supporters/season tickets would drive him out - but prospective new owners would see a club haemorrhaging fans, in competition with the likes of West Ham and not bother. We'd be even worse off than before. the fans wouldn't come back the instant he's gone, they'd want something to get behind and the vicious circle would go on and on. I am not saying action isn't needed, but I cannot state how strongly I disagree with mass boycott being the right action.
So if a number believe there's a problem, then there is a problem.
I'd ask, who does the problem lie with?
It doesn't matter who the problem lies with. If a customer in a shop wishes to complain and asks to see the manager, then his complaint needs to be addressed not ignored.
The customer may be wrong and may then accept he is wrong, after an explanation. However, if he is told, the manager is not willing to talk to him, then the customer is left with a complaint and even more angry.
This is where we are at unfortunately and it might be quite easily resolved.
Exactly, you would complain to the manager, KD, you wouldn't demand to see Mr FW Woolworth himself and then demand to know the details of how he is running his business.
People often escalate problems beyond a manager. Usually when they feel their complaint isn't being heard or dealt with adequately.
This is one way I look at matters at the moment...
The likes of Woolworths were good high street stores... Unfortunately they went out of Business because at the end of the day they didnt keep an eye on progression, they had their way of doing things and they stuck by them, ultimately because they didnt follow the trends set by their competitors they lost their customers and ultimately went out of business.
Now you look at Charlton... We've become a network club (Which to many is the big problem) but this has happened with clubs for years now a few examples which include big clubs:
- Manchester United / Antwerp (Countless United youngsters have played over in Belgium including current First Team Player: Johnny Evans) - Arsenal / Beveren (Emmanuel Eboue was sent to Belgium before Arsenal to ensure he qualified for work permit issues) - Manchester City / Melbourne City / New York City (Already you've seen Frank Lampard and David Villa used to full effect here)
Then you've the likes of Watford and Leeds United at our level who are part of the big picture, hell if you go back to us in the Premier League I dont remember there being many fans up in arms when we created links with Inter Milan and Valencia, yes nothing came of them but we could have found ourselves in this situation a lot sooner (With us losing the likes of Rufus to these clubs rather than the other way around).
Ultimately my point is thus... When you combine the amount of Millionaires with the amount of Football clubs out in the world these days there are more of the latter than there are people willing to put their money forward, because of bad decisions in the past your going to see more clubs struggling financially and it will probably become a case where there are many Roland Duchatelet's out there bringing clubs together under one roof and ensuring their survival.
Of course we can take this option or we can be like Woolworths, we can become a club that are run by people who think that plans that worked in the 90s will work now (Unfortunately the world has progressed too quickly since then), sadly I think in 10 - 20 years though we'll be an even smaller fish because we didnt keep up with our competitors
So where is our equivalent of Arsenal, Man United or Man City then? We have Standard Liege, not really comparable. Many have said that the network has possibilities, and Watford has been cited as an example, you have just highlighted a few more, BUT, this is a network of pretty average clubs. I don't see the benefit.
It's very interesting that the OP selected Woolworths for his comparison. A company that (didn't know about apostrophes and) lost sight of its business model. Although it does have an internet presence still. woolworths.co.uk/
Let's look at Woolworths: the central management were out of touch with what went on in the stores which, in turn, were making the shops an unattractive proposition for the customer. An example: Woolworths buyers got in house and garden plants and distributed them around the stores. Either the local store managers were inept or no one trained the staff in the vital concept that plants needed water to stay alive. So they just sat there, slowly dying, leaves dropping off and making the place look unattractive. While customers wondered what else was wrong with the store behind the scenes. Woolworths could have spent as much as they liked on making the stores look better but unless they watered the plants they would have been wasting their time.
It is the supreme irony that F W Woolworth & Co started life as a five and dime store and most of their old UK locations are now occupied by Poundland.
So, regarding the football club, spend all you like on the infrastructure but if you don't nurture the ACTUAL product - football - and make watching it a worthwhile and entertaining experience, then failure is a certainty.
But, all is not lost. In the States, Woolworths reinvented itself as Footlocker. Occupying the self-same but re-vamped floorspace but selling a product that looked good and that people wanted to buy. It's now a worldwide business turning over billions.
This is one way I look at matters at the moment...
The likes of Woolworths were good high street stores... Unfortunately they went out of Business because at the end of the day they didnt keep an eye on progression, they had their way of doing things and they stuck by them, ultimately because they didnt follow the trends set by their competitors they lost their customers and ultimately went out of business.
Now you look at Charlton... We've become a network club (Which to many is the big problem) but this has happened with clubs for years now a few examples which include big clubs:
- Manchester United / Antwerp (Countless United youngsters have played over in Belgium including current First Team Player: Johnny Evans) - Arsenal / Beveren (Emmanuel Eboue was sent to Belgium before Arsenal to ensure he qualified for work permit issues) - Manchester City / Melbourne City / New York City (Already you've seen Frank Lampard and David Villa used to full effect here)
Then you've the likes of Watford and Leeds United at our level who are part of the big picture, hell if you go back to us in the Premier League I dont remember there being many fans up in arms when we created links with Inter Milan and Valencia, yes nothing came of them but we could have found ourselves in this situation a lot sooner (With us losing the likes of Rufus to these clubs rather than the other way around).
Ultimately my point is thus... When you combine the amount of Millionaires with the amount of Football clubs out in the world these days there are more of the latter than there are people willing to put their money forward, because of bad decisions in the past your going to see more clubs struggling financially and it will probably become a case where there are many Roland Duchatelet's out there bringing clubs together under one roof and ensuring their survival.
Of course we can take this option or we can be like Woolworths, we can become a club that are run by people who think that plans that worked in the 90s will work now (Unfortunately the world has progressed too quickly since then), sadly I think in 10 - 20 years though we'll be an even smaller fish because we didnt keep up with our competitors
So where is our equivalent of Arsenal, Man United or Man City then? We have Standard Liege, not really comparable. Many have said that the network has possibilities, and Watford has been cited as an example, you have just highlighted a few more, BUT, this is a network of pretty average clubs. I don't see the benefit.
So maybe the answer isn't to get Roland to leave, but to buy barca, juve and bayern Munich.
Being part of the Network will not in itself be totally responsible for dwindling support at the Valley no matter how much we love or loath the concept. Premiership football will fill the stadium and probably entice younger supporters away from their computers. Whether this can be achieved by the network is debatable.
I understand about corporate box holders being as disgruntled as covered enders, but my point is RD doesn't need them. If they will not wait for a successful team, he will build that without them, then market the box to somebody who will pay.
1000 fans paying an average £100 per game, will not impact on a man whose net worth is reported around €500.000.000.
If he has to wait 1/2/3/5 years before recouping that £100,000 then I'm sure he can wait. This club is a business to him and he can afford to wait for a return on his investment.
Sorry Dan, who are these new people who will buy a corporate box at top dollar to watch third tier football in an empty stadium? Unless you are making the assumption that we are going to end up in the Premier league - even though all evidence so far indicates maintaining a mid table championship position, if that? If you think Charlton Athletic is a brand you can sell like a new soap powder, you don't know much about football fans.
I am fascinated by your apparent insight into Roland's head that the rest of us are lacking, you appear to KNOW what he is thinking - remarkable.
Foreveraddickted's network comparison does not stack up either, United, Arsenal an City have feeder clubs, and the Belgian ones are to help with speeding up work permits for non-EU players they are after...
Anyway, we are off the point again, whatever you say Dan, the perception remains the same among a significant number of people and they do matter.
Being part of the Network will not in itself be totally responsible for dwindling support at the Valley no matter how much we love or loath the concept. Premiership football will fill the stadium and probably entice younger supporters away from their computers. Whether this can be achieved by the network is debatable.
If the team is successful, the fans will be happy, the club will progress, profit will be made - everyone will come out ahead. This applies wherever the players come from, I don't think it's helpful to make the network the entirety of the problem. If every player we got from Liege was more Watt and less Reza there would be no complaints about the network. Similarly, if we'd signed a bunch of British-based players who'd given similarly half-hearted, poor performances, that wouldn't reflect on the network concept, but you'd still have unhappy fans.
Where the players come from isn't the problem - where they're going is, as they'll take the club with them.
I'm not trying to change people's opinions. As I have stated, I'm not 100% clear of my own yet. As for insight and knowledge, I'm no better placed than anybody else, just trying to look at things from an outside business position looking in. What I don't want is peoples actions to be rash and opinions devoid of facts, that could lead to our football club being left in a worse position than we are in now! Which is a distinct possibility!
If a supporter is unhappy, there is a problem somewhere, the problem is owned by the supporter.
If that problem is not addressed, and the supporter remains unhappy, the Club has an unhappy customer and that problem is owned by the Club and it is a systemic problem.
The Club choosing to tell the supporters they shouldn't be unhappy and they should be happy about meeting up with other miserable fans and feeling grateful that the players have a pitch to play on, will not solve the underlying cause of unhappiness.
The negatives around a systemic issue can be overtaken by positives, such as getting promoted to the Premiership. It does not mean that the systemic problem will not drag it back down again. The network if it does not work towards removing unhappiness will have to work much harder and be even more effective to ensure financial stability in the face of a permanent systemic problem - fan unhappiness.
I am not sure if I know what the solution to this is, but now that the Trust has held its excellent meeting, it should have a strong idea of what the many and varied questions that people have are. So why not type up these questions and formally put them to Richard Murray - who we know the Trust has an ongoing dialogue with. If the club would prefer, these questions could from an umbrella group like the Fans Forum if the club would prefer.
If the Trust would ask RM to be responsible for giving the answers to these questions, or finding the appropriate person who is, then I would imagine that it would get done.
Once the answers came back, the Trust would be able to share these around, particularly if the Trust's committee might talk individually to RD to get any further explanations. The answers might be better understood if they came from fellow fans, plus it might give the fans some expectations by which to judge the progress of the club against its own ambitions.
Even if the club thought that it had answered these questions already, as many have said, if the perception is that they have not, then that is still significant, but, as fans, we cannot forever be naval-gazing at a myriad of varied worries and questions. We need, as far as possible, to take positive steps to get answers so people can move on.
It is only my opinion, and I am sure that others will have better ideas, but I do think that we need to start thinking about possible solutions, rather than constantly worrying about what big worries we have.
So if a number believe there's a problem, then there is a problem.
I'd ask, who does the problem lie with?
It doesn't matter who the problem lies with. If a customer in a shop wishes to complain and asks to see the manager, then his complaint needs to be addressed not ignored.
The customer may be wrong and may then accept he is wrong, after an explanation. However, if he is told, the manager is not willing to talk to him, then the customer is left with a complaint and even more angry.
This is where we are at unfortunately and it might be quite easily resolved.
Exactly, you would complain to the manager, KD, you wouldn't demand to see Mr FW Woolworth himself and then demand to know the details of how he is running his business.
People often escalate problems beyond a manager. Usually when they feel their complaint isn't being heard or dealt with adequately.
Who to? Customer services? The owner of a multi million pound business?
Interesting point above about Woolworths. It brought to mind an interview I heard once with a famous chef, it might have been Heston Blumental where he said that good cooking can never compensate for bad service in the restaurant business, but good service can compensate for bad cooking.
Interesting point above about Woolworths. It brought to mind an interview I heard once with a famous chef, it might have been Heston Blumental where he said that good cooking can never compensate for bad service in the restaurant business, but good service can compensate for bad cooking.
My view, is that whether it's a football club or let's say a shop or a restaurant/food outlet or whatever. If perhaps half of your customers, or even a quarter, believe that there are SIGNIFICANT problems, then there ARE problems and they need to be addressed.
Woolworths for instance, were generally known as a shop, that stocked all sorts of items, but NOT MAINLY, what their customers wanted. The public wouldn't have a bad word to say about dear old Woolworths, except, they don't often shop there, as it didn't stock what the customer wants/needs.
Woolworths no longer exist, the customers stopped going there.
If Charlton will not listen and will not enter into dialogue with their fans, they will not be successful. I don't wish to rehash all the particular issues that we all agree/disagree with. I just want to emphasize, what I have said.
Sorry to start another thread, but I thought it was important to emphasize, to both the club and the fans, that can't see any problems and believe nothing needs addressing.
Woolworths took away their shops as they sold items that it was cheaper to buy online. Hence why no one wanted to pay their High Street prices for items. I believe they still operate online. Not sure how this really compares to Charlton Athletic Football Club?
HMV went the same way, who wants to buy dvds/cds for top high street prices, when you have shops like Amazon that will see you the same item for half the price with free delivery.
This is just the way off the world, no one has any money, and wants to get the best value for the money they do have.
I do appreicate all the issues that people are bringing up at the moment, but I look back to a couple of years ago, and I was worried that the club would even continue to exist. I think the club is in a much healthier position compared to before Roland took over.
I think people's expectations of Charlton are a bit unrealistic at present, of course we want to be in the Premier League, but this will take time. I clearly remember the days when we weren't very good, and I had no real expectations of getting promoted, I just went to support my local team and cheer them on.
Gone are the days were we went to Grimsby Town on a Tuesday night and we took 86 fans. We had 2 players sent off and lost 3-1 I believe that night. The night was so depressing, I walked round just to count how many fans we had! lol I seem to remember a certain Mr Mendonca scoring a couple that night.
Maybe we should just get behind the team and cheer them on like the good old days. It doesn't matter who the manager/owner is, we should just be getting behind our team and cheering them on to victory.
COME ON YOU REDS
An important thing to understand is that the thrust of the meeting was that people want the club to involve us the supporters more deeply, not for RD to sell up (although if he won't do the former...). I think it's also a bit odd to conclude no-one would be interested in taking the club over. That's not to say they'll necessarily be any better, of course, but I think potential buyers are out there.
The club's results being better or being in the Premier League isn't the key consideration either (although a football strategy that improves the club rather than keeps it in the relegation mire each year wouldn't go amiss). The point is that football is an emotional investment, and what you get in return is hard to define and even harder to guess from afar.
I've taken my pisses in the pouring rain in the old open top bogs near the Sam Bartram entrance. I've had those weird boiled burgers from down at the North East corner. I've stood on the East terrace till my feet got numb, watching Andy Nelson's team lose yet again. I put my cash in to help the club buy Ronnie Moore. I've been away midweek to watch us draw 0-0 at Bury, danced the conga on deserted terraces at Barnsley, got soaked to the skin at Reading and Swindon. I've stood in a crowd of 800 at that ramshackle stadium behind Sainsburys. They're precious memories, really they are. That's got nothing to do with what RD thinks we want; I mean, he seems to think it's all about a shiny new Valley and a social experience behind the East Stand.
I want to be part of something, and I've never been prouder of coming from Charlton than when we played that first game back at the Valley, despite there being portakabins everwhere, and only 3 stands of which one had seen better days at a golf open. I've never been prouder than when our fans stumped up £1m and got a seat on the board in return. Now even those fans are told their money isn't needed so they can skulk back to a remote foreigner's idea of Saturday afternoon football. If it stays Saturday afternoon, of course. I've also never felt more part of something than during those years when we had a board who supported the club, employing people who supported the club, and who prized the input of supporters in helping to build the club (not run it) over a long period of time - and a manager who made damn sure his players knew what it meant to play for this famous club.
So, frankly, I totally get why season ticket holders are saying, enough is enough, it's not my club anymore - because if it's not about Charlton Athletic and its supporters, and reduced to some kind of social experiment, well what does it matter which team you watch?
Much as I hate to say it, look at Crystal Palace if you want proof that a model that involves the supporter from board level down still works today.
Couple of points of order.
That Grimsby game was definitely a Saturday, and a cold one at that - drove up with Clem, remember having the best fish and chips before the game. Mendonca did score and we had Rufus and Kinsella I think sent off before half time and Brenda booked for clapping sarcastically on the brink of half time when we were already down to 9. Grimsby laboured to what I think was 2-0 win, a late Mendonca penalty securing it. Had a chat with a copper behind the goal that day about Mendonca. He said he was a brilliant player held back by persistent injury. Couldn't have been more delighted when he signed for us, but of course the injuries caught up with him in the end. I've only been there once and it was that game.
Woolworths went out of business because they were no longer relevant to their customer. They didn't change their business model - the brand name was obtained by another venture. Anyway, the thing to understand is that if Charlton loses its customers there is no alternative business model. That matchday income is lost until the time and money investment is made that brings them back again, which would be a shame because we've had 15-20 years of that, the value of which is being wasted away negligently. And of course by the time the new Target 20k gets a grip, West Ham will have plundered the undecided Kent support with offers of free Premiership football.
That thread is nearly a year old and if you read the trust meeting thread AB has stated it's an idea that didn't catch on so was quickly disregarded by all, including by AB himself.
Seems there is a witch hunt on this forum, against AB by, (some of) the pro Roland people.
Comments
1000 fans paying an average £100 per game, will not impact on a man whose net worth is reported around €500.000.000.
If he has to wait 1/2/3/5 years before recouping that £100,000 then I'm sure he can wait. This club is a business to him and he can afford to wait for a return on his investment.
The likes of Woolworths were good high street stores... Unfortunately they went out of Business because at the end of the day they didnt keep an eye on progression, they had their way of doing things and they stuck by them, ultimately because they didnt follow the trends set by their competitors they lost their customers and ultimately went out of business.
Now you look at Charlton... We've become a network club (Which to many is the big problem) but this has happened with clubs for years now a few examples which include big clubs:
- Manchester United / Antwerp (Countless United youngsters have played over in Belgium including current First Team Player: Johnny Evans)
- Arsenal / Beveren (Emmanuel Eboue was sent to Belgium before Arsenal to ensure he qualified for work permit issues)
- Manchester City / Melbourne City / New York City (Already you've seen Frank Lampard and David Villa used to full effect here)
Then you've the likes of Watford and Leeds United at our level who are part of the big picture, hell if you go back to us in the Premier League I dont remember there being many fans up in arms when we created links with Inter Milan and Valencia, yes nothing came of them but we could have found ourselves in this situation a lot sooner (With us losing the likes of Rufus to these clubs rather than the other way around).
Ultimately my point is thus... When you combine the amount of Millionaires with the amount of Football clubs out in the world these days there are more of the latter than there are people willing to put their money forward, because of bad decisions in the past your going to see more clubs struggling financially and it will probably become a case where there are many Roland Duchatelet's out there bringing clubs together under one roof and ensuring their survival.
Of course we can take this option or we can be like Woolworths, we can become a club that are run by people who think that plans that worked in the 90s will work now (Unfortunately the world has progressed too quickly since then), sadly I think in 10 - 20 years though we'll be an even smaller fish because we didnt keep up with our competitors
In your unrealistic example he would lose £100,000 per game or £2,300,000 per season.
If he waits 5 years he has lost £10.5M. I think he will care very much.
If he chucks £10M at the club to buy players in the summer, then I agree, this would dramatically change sentiment.
However, he's never suggested he would and we need proper communication and respect.
Roland and Katrien need to ensure the club keep up with their competitors whilst addressing fan concerns whilst they can.
The Fans need to understand that the world has progressed and that things that were acceptable in the past are now outdated and that because of this their concerns may not be able to be dealt with
Once again its a two way thing and is why both parties do need to come together and talk
(Now am a pro-network supporter but writing the above has at the same time made me understand why the trust want to talk with the board)
the club that finishes bottom of the Premier League in the 2016-17 season will pocket £99m. And in 5 years time this will be even larger, therefore he has made back what he lost and then some.
HMV went the same way, who wants to buy dvds/cds for top high street prices, when you have shops like Amazon that will see you the same item for half the price with free delivery.
This is just the way off the world, no one has any money, and wants to get the best value for the money they do have.
I do appreicate all the issues that people are bringing up at the moment, but I look back to a couple of years ago, and I was worried that the club would even continue to exist. I think the club is in a much healthier position compared to before Roland took over.
I think people's expectations of Charlton are a bit unrealistic at present, of course we want to be in the Premier League, but this will take time. I clearly remember the days when we weren't very good, and I had no real expectations of getting promoted, I just went to support my local team and cheer them on.
Gone are the days were we went to Grimsby Town on a Tuesday night and we took 86 fans. We had 2 players sent off and lost 3-1 I believe that night. The night was so depressing, I walked round just to count how many fans we had! lol I seem to remember a certain Mr Mendonca scoring a couple that night.
Maybe we should just get behind the team and cheer them on like the good old days. It doesn't matter who the manager/owner is, we should just be getting behind our team and cheering them on to victory.
COME ON YOU REDS
The point remains, you would complain to the store manager, not Dieter Schwarz.
Let's look at Woolworths: the central management were out of touch with what went on in the stores which, in turn, were making the shops an unattractive proposition for the customer. An example: Woolworths buyers got in house and garden plants and distributed them around the stores. Either the local store managers were inept or no one trained the staff in the vital concept that plants needed water to stay alive. So they just sat there, slowly dying, leaves dropping off and making the place look unattractive. While customers wondered what else was wrong with the store behind the scenes. Woolworths could have spent as much as they liked on making the stores look better but unless they watered the plants they would have been wasting their time.
It is the supreme irony that F W Woolworth & Co started life as a five and dime store and most of their old UK locations are now occupied by Poundland.
So, regarding the football club, spend all you like on the infrastructure but if you don't nurture the ACTUAL product - football - and make watching it a worthwhile and entertaining experience, then failure is a certainty.
But, all is not lost. In the States, Woolworths reinvented itself as Footlocker. Occupying the self-same but re-vamped floorspace but selling a product that looked good and that people wanted to buy. It's now a worldwide business turning over billions.
Premiership football will fill the stadium and probably entice younger supporters away from their computers. Whether this can be achieved by the network is debatable.
I am fascinated by your apparent insight into Roland's head that the rest of us are lacking, you appear to KNOW what he is thinking - remarkable.
Foreveraddickted's network comparison does not stack up either, United, Arsenal an City have feeder clubs, and the Belgian ones are to help with speeding up work permits for non-EU players they are after...
Anyway, we are off the point again, whatever you say Dan, the perception remains the same among a significant number of people and they do matter.
10:11AM
I honestly believe everyone is over reacting regarding RD and KM.
Can you give us some examples of Roland communicating with supporters ?
Where the players come from isn't the problem - where they're going is, as they'll take the club with them.
What I don't want is peoples actions to be rash and opinions devoid of facts, that could lead to our football club being left in a worse position than we are in now! Which is a distinct possibility!
If that problem is not addressed, and the supporter remains unhappy, the Club has an unhappy customer and that problem is owned by the Club and it is a systemic problem.
The Club choosing to tell the supporters they shouldn't be unhappy and they should be happy about meeting up with other miserable fans and feeling grateful that the players have a pitch to play on, will not solve the underlying cause of unhappiness.
The negatives around a systemic issue can be overtaken by positives, such as getting promoted to the Premiership. It does not mean that the systemic problem will not drag it back down again. The network if it does not work towards removing unhappiness will have to work much harder and be even more effective to ensure financial stability in the face of a permanent systemic problem - fan unhappiness.
Please note the person suggesting this by the way.
http://forum.charltonlife.com/discussion/60548/season-ticket-strike-to-bring-the-owner-to-the-table/p1
If the Trust would ask RM to be responsible for giving the answers to these questions, or finding the appropriate person who is, then I would imagine that it would get done.
Once the answers came back, the Trust would be able to share these around, particularly if the Trust's committee might talk individually to RD to get any further explanations. The answers might be better understood if they came from fellow fans, plus it might give the fans some expectations by which to judge the progress of the club against its own ambitions.
Even if the club thought that it had answered these questions already, as many have said, if the perception is that they have not, then that is still significant, but, as fans, we cannot forever be naval-gazing at a myriad of varied worries and questions. We need, as far as possible, to take positive steps to get answers so people can move on.
It is only my opinion, and I am sure that others will have better ideas, but I do think that we need to start thinking about possible solutions, rather than constantly worrying about what big worries we have.
Customer services?
The owner of a multi million pound business?
The club's results being better or being in the Premier League isn't the key consideration either (although a football strategy that improves the club rather than keeps it in the relegation mire each year wouldn't go amiss). The point is that football is an emotional investment, and what you get in return is hard to define and even harder to guess from afar.
I've taken my pisses in the pouring rain in the old open top bogs near the Sam Bartram entrance. I've had those weird boiled burgers from down at the North East corner. I've stood on the East terrace till my feet got numb, watching Andy Nelson's team lose yet again. I put my cash in to help the club buy Ronnie Moore. I've been away midweek to watch us draw 0-0 at Bury, danced the conga on deserted terraces at Barnsley, got soaked to the skin at Reading and Swindon. I've stood in a crowd of 800 at that ramshackle stadium behind Sainsburys. They're precious memories, really they are. That's got nothing to do with what RD thinks we want; I mean, he seems to think it's all about a shiny new Valley and a social experience behind the East Stand.
I want to be part of something, and I've never been prouder of coming from Charlton than when we played that first game back at the Valley, despite there being portakabins everwhere, and only 3 stands of which one had seen better days at a golf open. I've never been prouder than when our fans stumped up £1m and got a seat on the board in return. Now even those fans are told their money isn't needed so they can skulk back to a remote foreigner's idea of Saturday afternoon football. If it stays Saturday afternoon, of course. I've also never felt more part of something than during those years when we had a board who supported the club, employing people who supported the club, and who prized the input of supporters in helping to build the club (not run it) over a long period of time - and a manager who made damn sure his players knew what it meant to play for this famous club.
So, frankly, I totally get why season ticket holders are saying, enough is enough, it's not my club anymore - because if it's not about Charlton Athletic and its supporters, and reduced to some kind of social experiment, well what does it matter which team you watch?
Much as I hate to say it, look at Crystal Palace if you want proof that a model that involves the supporter from board level down still works today.
Couple of points of order.
That Grimsby game was definitely a Saturday, and a cold one at that - drove up with Clem, remember having the best fish and chips before the game. Mendonca did score and we had Rufus and Kinsella I think sent off before half time and Brenda booked for clapping sarcastically on the brink of half time when we were already down to 9. Grimsby laboured to what I think was 2-0 win, a late Mendonca penalty securing it. Had a chat with a copper behind the goal that day about Mendonca. He said he was a brilliant player held back by persistent injury. Couldn't have been more delighted when he signed for us, but of course the injuries caught up with him in the end. I've only been there once and it was that game.
Woolworths went out of business because they were no longer relevant to their customer. They didn't change their business model - the brand name was obtained by another venture. Anyway, the thing to understand is that if Charlton loses its customers there is no alternative business model. That matchday income is lost until the time and money investment is made that brings them back again, which would be a shame because we've had 15-20 years of that, the value of which is being wasted away negligently. And of course by the time the new Target 20k gets a grip, West Ham will have plundered the undecided Kent support with offers of free Premiership football.
Seems there is a witch hunt on this forum, against AB by, (some of) the pro Roland people.